Ok I think I understand your idea, but I don’t like it based on one main thing. Combat.
The biggest problem in my opinion is that people only get EXP for fighting. So once you have diamond you can level up really easy, and then using your levels you can kill even easier.
Second the bonuses make combat the most important thing in the game, which it never will be. All your bonuses make it so that people don’t want to go gather materials and build. Even if bonuses to mining speed and the amount they get makes people lazy it has them actually play the game.
It would be so much easier to limit the levels for these. Just make the lvl cap 10 and that increases mining speed by 1.5 and gives you a twenty five percent chance of a double drop. Also make it take a long time to get levels that way.
People need to stop thinking that levels are something they need, but just icing on the cake.
The biggest problem in my opinion is that people only get EXP for fighting. So once you have diamond you can level up really easy, and then using your levels you can kill even easier.
This allows progression. I don't see anyone complaining that the diamond pick is overpowered, because you work hard to get it. It is the same with levels. You don't kill a skeleton and suddenly become invincible. You have to kill hundreds of skeletons.
However, I do agree that it would be nice to get minuscule amounts of EXP for breaking blocks. To give the possibility of progression to those who do not fight.
Second the bonuses make combat the most important thing in the game, which it never will be. All your bonuses make it so that people don’t want to go gather materials and build. Even if bonuses to mining speed and the amount they get makes people lazy it has them actually play the game.
May I remind you that fighting monsters IS playing the game. Minecraft is an amazing game because you can do whatever you want, however you want to do it. Those who want to treat minecraft like a sandbox game; gathering resources and building; can do so. Those who want to use these skills to enjoy minecraft like a RPG can as well. Just because I want to play the game differently than you, doesn't mean I am not playing the game.
Also, I believe this is a suggestion for after 1.8, and if you didn't know, the ADVENTURE update focuses on exploration and combat (With the addition of multiple new mobs, ravines, and strongholds). Clearly Notch does not want his game to be 100% creation based. Plus, there are many servers that are nearly 100% PVP. Please remember that many people enjoy combat in minecraft. :smile.gif:
Currently, combat is one of the most under emphasized portions of the game; it's broken and clunky in a worst case, and uninteresting in a best case.
Having a system of improvement would create the depth necessary for making combat worthwhile.
Yes, most of the skills I have made have combat utility, but many more of them are designed as safety and survival mechanics which help improve the life of your non-combat player such as skills which can increase travel rate in water or allow the player to jump off of walls to reach heights beforehand unattainable.
It is difficult to create balanced mechanics for harvesting as these are easily exploitable. I have heard the arguments and can agree that there are positive benefits to the system having harvest improvements to help the non-combat side of gameplay; but implementing these benefits in a system promoting skill is difficult and tedious. Sure, I can make a skill with double rate mining; but that seems to completely undermine (pardon the pun) the balance that Notch brought to the game.
I will be interested in some balanced proposals toward inclusion of such mechanics like "increased planks from logs", but they have to be balanced, skillful, and fun; not just arbitrary increases. I hope that doesn't sound too vague, I'm searching for the words to phrase that better.
Essentially, skills like "+1/2/3/4/5 planks from logs" isn't a fun addition. It's just a passive increase to yields.
A skill like "right-click to charge axe, consumes double durability, releasing charge destroys log and 4/4/5/5/6 planks appear instead. Can be used once every 60/50/40/30/20 seconds" would be a more balanced method as the player is limited on time per use. In a worst case, it saves a step in crafting; in a best case, the yield is increased by 1 or 2.
Though it does seem cool in theory, I think it would detract from the overall simplicity of the game, and even severely hinder the accessibility. I'm sorry, but I have to say no.
edit: Combat is already receiving a rather satisfying improvement in 1.8.
In general, and epic idea.
But in reality, it'll overcomplicate the system. If you REALLY need these, play something like WoW.
But if it WAS implemented, I'd party. For the whole night. Then some more.
Couldn't say it better myself. I appreciateall the work, and for that, I support you, but it would over-complicate everything and it doesn't fit Minecraft.
Notch is currently working on how skill points will be implemented. Until he has one set, I'll refit this suggestion to fit inline with the orbs and hopefully it will keep to the balance already established.
Thanks all for the support and criticism, look forward to future changes I make.
It's a nice idea, but like what other people said, it's far too complex and probably too difficult and frustrating to learn all the moves and the inns and outs of the system. I love complexity in games, but games that have tons of different skills with different attributes and different times to remember; it eventually becomes tedious and annoying.
I suggest you make the skill trees less complicated and also make sure each skill have a VERY specific use. It's best to have each skill as unique as possible; to differentiate it from the rest. I think you should remove the concept of timers. Have each skill be used whenever the player wants to use it; restraining the player isn't a good idea. Of course, you will then have to make sure the skill won't be overpowered if used in rapid succession.
Another thing, as few skill trees as possibles. I think you should try to condense your existing skill trees to 3. (maybe Survival, Combat, and another aspect like Building/Crafting?)
I know it seems like I don't like this idea, but I still do and I enjoyed reading it a lot :smile.gif:
It might be a far fetch, but I smell some similarities with some other RPG-like games, but it still relies on skill of the player and the acquired "Experience" element freshly implemented into the game.
I would like some kind of skill tree that allows the player to infinitely increase the usefulness of their skills as they level, or at least let every gained level add some kind of a bonus after you complete your tree.
P.S.:
I want to suggest clicking on the picture in my signature. It leads to a thread about a mod that is in the making about the Monster Hunter games.
Why do I suggest this, you ask? The Monster Hunter games rely heavily on the skill of the player to best overly powerful beasts - Because ask yourself, would you really need any of those skills without worthy enemies?
It's a nice idea, but like what other people said, it's far too complex and probably too difficult and frustrating to learn all the moves and the inns and outs of the system. I love complexity in games, but games that have tons of different skills with different attributes and different times to remember; it eventually becomes tedious and annoying.
I suggest you make the skill trees less complicated and also make sure each skill have a VERY specific use. It's best to have each skill as unique as possible; to differentiate it from the rest. I think you should remove the concept of timers. Have each skill be used whenever the player wants to use it; restraining the player isn't a good idea. Of course, you will then have to make sure the skill won't be overpowered if used in rapid succession.
Another thing, as few skill trees as possibles. I think you should try to condense your existing skill trees to 3. (maybe Survival, Combat, and another aspect like Building/Crafting?)
I know it seems like I don't like this idea, but I still do and I enjoyed reading it a lot :smile.gif:
You'll notice with most of these skills that they are fairly simple actions. I knew, before heading into the venture, that complicated controls would bog down the system.
Most every action acts as a augment to current controls (exception being ctrl to sprint). Holding right-click to charge is hardly mind-boggling, pressing sneak during a sprint to tumble is intuitive. Just about every skill attempts to keep in mind intuitive gameplay and perhaps a bit of timing on the side.
I appreciate your comment, but I find it perplexing to see a complaint of frustratingly complicated controls when my most sincere attempt was to make them as intuitive and streamlined as possible.
I view it akin to complaining that the controls of sonic the hedgehog are too robust (you press a button to jump, left, and right. Occasionally they throw a curveball at you and you're expected to press down. Oh, the humanity).
I'll see how I can limit the skill trees per your request, though I feel that it does much more to obfuscate gameplay than enrich it.
In my opinion, timers should remain. I don't foresee a legitimate reason to remove them as the entire system of skills in the first place is an attempt to remove constraint. This is like me giving the player wax wings but setting a ceiling so poor Icarus doesn't fly too close to the sun. Could he have flown at all beforehand? No, so how is this adding constraint?
Also, the player is constrained already, or did you not see that? The player can jump 1m high, has a max fall distance of 23m before dying, has 10 hearts, can move no faster than 5m/s, moves half that speed in water, has 10 bubbles of air, begins drowning when that expires, takes damage from lava and fire, is hurt by arrows and NPC attacks, cannot grow or shrink, cannot fit into 1m high holes, must eat to reduce hunger, etc. Cannot wall-jump/double-jump, etc.
This, in many ways, eliminates the constraints or lessens them in a worst case. Having a capped time between usage is hardly a constraint as much as it is a balancing mechanism.
I thank you for your comment but I do not agree with your point of view.
I'm looking at refitting the skill tree as we speak.
As of now, gaining a level gives 3 skill points. I'll make my best balanced effort to ensure that this system sees continual improvement.
A few up-front expectations:
"signature abilities" will still be exclusively chosen.
Skills will no longer require sleep to set and reset.
Death will still wipe the skill tree (be careful) (this is tentative on Notch's chosen system)
The skill timer remains, this is the easiest way to keep skills effectively balanced (unless, of course, someone has a better alternative.
A few changes to expect:
Acuity will be removed as Notch has introduced a SP system.
skills should see a lifted (unlimited) tolerance on maximum rank (values per rank will be adjusted).
As each skill increases in rank, so too does it's skill point cost.
Effective, although skills may be "unlimited", there is a limit set by difficulty in acquiring skill points. After all, when skills begin costing 30+ skill points, it becomes difficult, tedious, and unwieldy to keep improving when other skills would be cheaper and more beneficial at that point.
signature abilities will see a radical jump in actual cost as there is no longer a acuity hard cap, learn delay(sleeping), and no longer a reason to keep these values cheap.
As signature abilities are borderline required for each tree's growth, they will have the same number of finite skill ranks as present. Since their max rank is fixed, they will also have a fixed SP per rank.
Thanks for the time, and I appreciate the understanding as I refit the model.
UPDATE:
Main descriptive article updated, will update actual trees soon.
Subtlety tree has been updated. Several skills removed (namely pure speed increase skills such as burning heat and improved mobility), kept swimmers ear due to it's nature.
Will replace burning heat with a much more conducive gameplay element than simple speed improvement since swimmer's ear has that covered.
Alright, just so everyone knows, the system works as such:
While skill rank gains are unlimited, I assume that the player will die long before he acquires enough skill points to gain the 1000+ that some skills eventually require.
Skills will show the first 40 costs for ranks while they are below 1000.
Let it be understood that most RPG systems max the player out at level 99. If you applied the common system here, the player would have a maximum of 294 skill points (level 1 doesn't give skill points, you gain 98 levels).
If you decided to remove a level cap and allow the player more free growth to NIS standards, you'll be looking at 9999 levels or 29 994 skill points which makes some of the more obscene values presented here possible.
Notch is redefining it. Check his videos. He's adding a great deal of mechanics which stand in clear objection to sandbox ideals.
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If only I could aim.
The biggest problem in my opinion is that people only get EXP for fighting. So once you have diamond you can level up really easy, and then using your levels you can kill even easier.
Second the bonuses make combat the most important thing in the game, which it never will be. All your bonuses make it so that people don’t want to go gather materials and build. Even if bonuses to mining speed and the amount they get makes people lazy it has them actually play the game.
It would be so much easier to limit the levels for these. Just make the lvl cap 10 and that increases mining speed by 1.5 and gives you a twenty five percent chance of a double drop. Also make it take a long time to get levels that way.
People need to stop thinking that levels are something they need, but just icing on the cake.
This allows progression. I don't see anyone complaining that the diamond pick is overpowered, because you work hard to get it. It is the same with levels. You don't kill a skeleton and suddenly become invincible. You have to kill hundreds of skeletons.
However, I do agree that it would be nice to get minuscule amounts of EXP for breaking blocks. To give the possibility of progression to those who do not fight.
May I remind you that fighting monsters IS playing the game. Minecraft is an amazing game because you can do whatever you want, however you want to do it. Those who want to treat minecraft like a sandbox game; gathering resources and building; can do so. Those who want to use these skills to enjoy minecraft like a RPG can as well. Just because I want to play the game differently than you, doesn't mean I am not playing the game.
Also, I believe this is a suggestion for after 1.8, and if you didn't know, the ADVENTURE update focuses on exploration and combat (With the addition of multiple new mobs, ravines, and strongholds). Clearly Notch does not want his game to be 100% creation based. Plus, there are many servers that are nearly 100% PVP. Please remember that many people enjoy combat in minecraft. :smile.gif:
Having a system of improvement would create the depth necessary for making combat worthwhile.
Yes, most of the skills I have made have combat utility, but many more of them are designed as safety and survival mechanics which help improve the life of your non-combat player such as skills which can increase travel rate in water or allow the player to jump off of walls to reach heights beforehand unattainable.
It is difficult to create balanced mechanics for harvesting as these are easily exploitable. I have heard the arguments and can agree that there are positive benefits to the system having harvest improvements to help the non-combat side of gameplay; but implementing these benefits in a system promoting skill is difficult and tedious. Sure, I can make a skill with double rate mining; but that seems to completely undermine (pardon the pun) the balance that Notch brought to the game.
I will be interested in some balanced proposals toward inclusion of such mechanics like "increased planks from logs", but they have to be balanced, skillful, and fun; not just arbitrary increases. I hope that doesn't sound too vague, I'm searching for the words to phrase that better.
Essentially, skills like "+1/2/3/4/5 planks from logs" isn't a fun addition. It's just a passive increase to yields.
A skill like "right-click to charge axe, consumes double durability, releasing charge destroys log and 4/4/5/5/6 planks appear instead. Can be used once every 60/50/40/30/20 seconds" would be a more balanced method as the player is limited on time per use. In a worst case, it saves a step in crafting; in a best case, the yield is increased by 1 or 2.
See what I mean?
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However, I did intend that SOMETHING be improved in a worst case. Combat needs a drastic improvement; though I can foresee other improvements.
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edit: Combat is already receiving a rather satisfying improvement in 1.8.
Couldn't say it better myself. I appreciateall the work, and for that, I support you, but it would over-complicate everything and it doesn't fit Minecraft.
I think the survival game mode is pretty good as it is, but this could be an interesting new mode. :smile.gif:
Notch is currently working on how skill points will be implemented. Until he has one set, I'll refit this suggestion to fit inline with the orbs and hopefully it will keep to the balance already established.
Thanks all for the support and criticism, look forward to future changes I make.
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It's a nice idea, but like what other people said, it's far too complex and probably too difficult and frustrating to learn all the moves and the inns and outs of the system. I love complexity in games, but games that have tons of different skills with different attributes and different times to remember; it eventually becomes tedious and annoying.
I suggest you make the skill trees less complicated and also make sure each skill have a VERY specific use. It's best to have each skill as unique as possible; to differentiate it from the rest. I think you should remove the concept of timers. Have each skill be used whenever the player wants to use it; restraining the player isn't a good idea. Of course, you will then have to make sure the skill won't be overpowered if used in rapid succession.
Another thing, as few skill trees as possibles. I think you should try to condense your existing skill trees to 3. (maybe Survival, Combat, and another aspect like Building/Crafting?)
I know it seems like I don't like this idea, but I still do and I enjoyed reading it a lot :smile.gif:
I would like some kind of skill tree that allows the player to infinitely increase the usefulness of their skills as they level, or at least let every gained level add some kind of a bonus after you complete your tree.
P.S.:
I want to suggest clicking on the picture in my signature. It leads to a thread about a mod that is in the making about the Monster Hunter games.
Why do I suggest this, you ask? The Monster Hunter games rely heavily on the skill of the player to best overly powerful beasts - Because ask yourself, would you really need any of those skills without worthy enemies?
You'll notice with most of these skills that they are fairly simple actions. I knew, before heading into the venture, that complicated controls would bog down the system.
Most every action acts as a augment to current controls (exception being ctrl to sprint). Holding right-click to charge is hardly mind-boggling, pressing sneak during a sprint to tumble is intuitive. Just about every skill attempts to keep in mind intuitive gameplay and perhaps a bit of timing on the side.
I appreciate your comment, but I find it perplexing to see a complaint of frustratingly complicated controls when my most sincere attempt was to make them as intuitive and streamlined as possible.
I view it akin to complaining that the controls of sonic the hedgehog are too robust (you press a button to jump, left, and right. Occasionally they throw a curveball at you and you're expected to press down. Oh, the humanity).
I'll see how I can limit the skill trees per your request, though I feel that it does much more to obfuscate gameplay than enrich it.
In my opinion, timers should remain. I don't foresee a legitimate reason to remove them as the entire system of skills in the first place is an attempt to remove constraint. This is like me giving the player wax wings but setting a ceiling so poor Icarus doesn't fly too close to the sun. Could he have flown at all beforehand? No, so how is this adding constraint?
Also, the player is constrained already, or did you not see that? The player can jump 1m high, has a max fall distance of 23m before dying, has 10 hearts, can move no faster than 5m/s, moves half that speed in water, has 10 bubbles of air, begins drowning when that expires, takes damage from lava and fire, is hurt by arrows and NPC attacks, cannot grow or shrink, cannot fit into 1m high holes, must eat to reduce hunger, etc. Cannot wall-jump/double-jump, etc.
This, in many ways, eliminates the constraints or lessens them in a worst case. Having a capped time between usage is hardly a constraint as much as it is a balancing mechanism.
I thank you for your comment but I do not agree with your point of view.
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"Don't believe every quote on the internet."- Abraham Lincoln
As of now, gaining a level gives 3 skill points. I'll make my best balanced effort to ensure that this system sees continual improvement.
A few up-front expectations:
"signature abilities" will still be exclusively chosen.
Skills will no longer require sleep to set and reset.
Death will still wipe the skill tree (be careful) (this is tentative on Notch's chosen system)
The skill timer remains, this is the easiest way to keep skills effectively balanced (unless, of course, someone has a better alternative.
A few changes to expect:
Acuity will be removed as Notch has introduced a SP system.
skills should see a lifted (unlimited) tolerance on maximum rank (values per rank will be adjusted).
As each skill increases in rank, so too does it's skill point cost.
Effective, although skills may be "unlimited", there is a limit set by difficulty in acquiring skill points. After all, when skills begin costing 30+ skill points, it becomes difficult, tedious, and unwieldy to keep improving when other skills would be cheaper and more beneficial at that point.
signature abilities will see a radical jump in actual cost as there is no longer a acuity hard cap, learn delay(sleeping), and no longer a reason to keep these values cheap.
As signature abilities are borderline required for each tree's growth, they will have the same number of finite skill ranks as present. Since their max rank is fixed, they will also have a fixed SP per rank.
Thanks for the time, and I appreciate the understanding as I refit the model.
UPDATE:
Main descriptive article updated, will update actual trees soon.
Subtlety tree has been updated. Several skills removed (namely pure speed increase skills such as burning heat and improved mobility), kept swimmers ear due to it's nature.
Will replace burning heat with a much more conducive gameplay element than simple speed improvement since swimmer's ear has that covered.
EDIT:
Added Wall Run and Flight Foot(Water-walk)
DONE WITH SUBTLETY.
(45%)
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While skill rank gains are unlimited, I assume that the player will die long before he acquires enough skill points to gain the 1000+ that some skills eventually require.
Skills will show the first 40 costs for ranks while they are below 1000.
Let it be understood that most RPG systems max the player out at level 99. If you applied the common system here, the player would have a maximum of 294 skill points (level 1 doesn't give skill points, you gain 98 levels).
If you decided to remove a level cap and allow the player more free growth to NIS standards, you'll be looking at 9999 levels or 29 994 skill points which makes some of the more obscene values presented here possible.
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