First off, I'd like to apologize about my stubbornness from before.
After thinking it over, I actually do agree with the direction you want to take this. However, there are a few things that still bug me.
First of all, the Trolls. Not the Trolls themselves, just the names. I don't think Troll really fits with the theme of hell, so I wish to propose alternate names:
Ogre(Ogres, I think in some myths, are demons. Plus, you can easily see this thing being a ogre.)
Abomination(Not likely for obvious reasons.)
Aberration
Dreadnought
Wrath
Tormented
Greater Demon
On the subject of Mushraves, you have to admit that that's a silly name. Still, I agree it shouldn't just be called nethershrooms. Here are a few more names.
Next is the midus tears. I'm not particularly happy with them, but I don't have much reason as to get rid of them.
I'm still not fully convinced of Gloomwood. I like the idea that it grows shadows as leaves, but to that end, once to cut it down it should just act as normal logs.(With the exception of freezing water. That it can still do) I could imagine people wanting to use it as a building material to complement their wooden houses. To that end I propose a few things.
In the nether, Gloomwood acts as it's supposed to. However, in the over world, gloomwood logs only produces cold. When grown, Gloomwood trees will still have the shadow leaves like normal.
I would also like to see Gloomwood planks. It can sometimes be a bit boring with just normal wood, seeing as color doesn't seem to vary with tree types. Though, it will still have a difference to normal wood. As said, this is mostly for decoration and building purposes, since a good bit of the fun in minecraft is, of course, building.
Since Gloomwood comes from hell itself, it would be a twisted aberration of what wood really is. To that, I propose that, should Gloomwood in any form catch fire, then that fire will come out as blue, cold fire. You would still take damage from this fire, however, the fire will also cause objects to freeze or be put out(Like torches and fire itself. It'll also work on lava flows, but not lava sources for obvious reasons.)
And continuing on that path, as I've mentioned from before, being able to make torches with gloom shards and coal or something. The idea wasn't for the fire to create light, but to be visible in the darkness. This would create a creepy ambiance to it as all you see in the darkness is floating blue flames.
That's what I think, at least. I hope you like some of my ideas.
First off, I'd like to apologize about my stubbornness from before.
After thinking it over, I actually do agree with the direction you want to take this. However, there are a few things that still bug me.
This seems to be happening a lot.
First of all, the Trolls. Not the Trolls themselves, just the names. I don't think Troll really fits with the theme of hell, so I wish to propose alternate names:
Ogre(Ogres, I think in some myths, are demons. Plus, you can easily see this thing being a ogre.)
Greater Demon
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Particularly since the Larger bones are currently being called Demon Bones. Another name that is worth considering is "Fiend"
However if the name gets changed, I think it should also get a texture update. maybe something stripier.
On the subject of Mushraves, you have to admit that that's a silly name. Still, I agree it shouldn't just be called nethershrooms. Here are a few more names.
I'm not really fond of any of these names. Silly or not, it's still fitting what the Mushraves actually do; provide colored lighting.
I'm still not fully convinced of Gloomwood. I like the idea that it grows shadows as leaves, but to that end, once to cut it down it should just act as normal logs.(With the exception of freezing water. That it can still do) I could imagine people wanting to use it as a building material to complement their wooden houses. To that end I propose a few things.
In the nether, Gloomwood acts as it's supposed to. However, in the over world, gloomwood logs only produces cold. When grown, Gloomwood trees will still have the shadow leaves like normal.
Put it on top of or underneath soul sand to prevent it from giving off shadows.
I would also like to see Gloomwood planks. It can sometimes be a bit boring with just normal wood, seeing as color doesn't seem to vary with tree types. Though, it will still have a difference to normal wood. As said, this is mostly for decoration and building purposes, since a good bit of the fun in minecraft is, of course, building.
Since Gloomwood comes from hell itself, it would be a twisted aberration of what wood really is. To that, I propose that, should Gloomwood in any form catch fire, then that fire will come out as blue, cold fire. You would still take damage from this fire, however, the fire will also cause objects to freeze or be put out(Like torches and fire itself. It'll also work on lava flows, but not lava sources for obvious reasons.)
Just like Gloomwood doesn't have actual leaves and can grow upside down, it's actually as much akin to a stalagmite/stalactite, hence why it breaks into "shards" instead of sticks and doesn't even have planks at all. This is due to it's "twisted" nature. there's no possible way for Gloomwood to burn, since it puts out fire on all adjacent blocks, and even turns lava source blocks to obsidian, though destroying itself to do that.
And continuing on that path, as I've mentioned from before, being able to make torches with gloom shards and coal or something. The idea wasn't for the fire to create light, but to be visible in the darkness. This would create a creepy ambiance to it as all you see in the darkness is floating blue flames.
I really feel that you're not getting the point of Gloomwood at all. It generates shadows, not "darkfire" or anything like that. Actually, it may be the wording that is getting you confused; Gloomwood doesn't "generate shadows" which is an additive process, it "removes light" which is a subtractive process. There's no reason for it to produce flames of any kind, light casting or not, because it's not producing anything, it's removing.
Quote from bluedragon463 »
um i think nether doesn't need more melee based mobs i think nether needs like 1 or 2 more ranged guys
Salamander and Troll are both Ranged. Zombie Pigmen have a chance of having a ranged supplementary attack that makes it easier for the other pigment to attack you without you being able to defend yourself, and ghasts have had their ranged attack improved. I think we're good.
How can one be in Midas Tears AND lava at the same time? Are you suggesting two flowing blocks are going to be 'mixing' together? Won't that create problems/bugs?
I don't see any issues, since source block for Midas Tears doesn't burn, but the flow does, being surrounded by lava just wont give it a chance to flow anywhere, so it'll be a single block surrounded by lava, possibly very hard to see and easy to mistakenly float across in your netheraft.
So the real threat of carting through lava is the chance of running over a single MT source somewhere, falling out and dying, all your stuff then lands in the lava and it all gets destroyed. Essentially a MT block in the lava is an instant game-stopper (you've got no gear in the Nether; you're forced to return and gear up again). This is not fun. Midas Tears, if at all, should be kept seperate from lava, just as how water and lava currently react to each other (solid block is generated to seperate them).
Quote from GreyAcumen »
Quote from Disordah »
Turning stuff into gold is fair enough, but the whole destuction/burning bit is going to create too many problems. In fact you could probably remove Midas Tears altogether and still have a very attractive concept overall.
What are you talking about? Only the ability to turn Items to gold extends to the player's quickbar, it only destroys your items if you drop an item that can't be turned into gold into it. (and wont destroy gold items at all) That part isn't much different than lava, so what problems is it gong to bring other than the ones it is SUPPOSED to cause for the player?
I'm talking about this:
...The flow from Midas Tears will destroy any substantial (solid) blocks in the path of it's flow...
Apart from the griefing, if a Midas Tears block generates or gets placed at the base of a hill or mountain, it's going to cut a hole through the base of it and make it look 'wrong'. You'll be seeing gloomwood trees floating atop the pools of Midas Tears. It will basically ruin the landscape.
Quote from GreyAcumen »
Quote from Disordah »
So the bucket turns into a gold bucket, but the minecart turns into a gold helmet? MECHANICALLY this works, but REALISTICALLY it doesn't. (you must be a developer :tongue.gif:) There is no harm in creating a gold minecart that functions exactly the same as an iron one.
Not everything needs to be given a specific function. Yes it's ideal to give everything a purpose, but immersion and aesthetics work just fine on their own. If you want the danger of steering your cart into lava, then have gold minecarts melt on impact. No one could argue with that.
Minecraft doesn't NEED to be realistic, logical yes, but not realistic. There are 3 ways that a minecart might run into Midas Tears:
1) Using the minecart as a lava boat, and running into a patch of Midas Tears. This is the most likely situation, and in it the gold minecart would melt in the lava, so not only is it useless, its appearance would be all of 2 seconds.
2) Using the minecart as a minecart, and somehow manages to touch Midas Tears. Minecart turns into a gold minecart and has absolutely no negative repercussions.
3) In the player's quickbar when the player touches Midas Tears. Again, no negative repercussions.
So in the most likely scenario, the golden minecart barely even makes an appearance and might as well be a golden helmet for all the difference it would make, and in the other scenarios, there's no negative effects. It literally has no point except to make people question why they can't just make minecarts out of gold directly so they don't have to waste iron building them.
The gold bucket has a purpose, it makes it in. The gold minecart doesn't, and has an equivalent item that it can change into instead, so it doesn't make it in. I'm sure there will be plenty of people that go "wait, why a helmet?" but then they'll eventually put 2 and 2 together and notice the similarity of the crafting recipe.
No Minecraft doesn't NEED to be realistic, but it helps. In any case, there's a fine line between Realism and Logic.
You say a golden minecart has no purpose... well it has about as much purpose as a gold helmet. It is even more logical than a gold helmet. It is more consistent with the concept. The only link the gold helmet has to a cart is it has the same crafting components; otherwise it is a completely different item. The only reason why you suggested cart=helmet was because you were looking for existing items to use for the conversion. Cart=Helmet is not logical. If you put cart=helmet in the game, you will get a big, fat "WTF?" from the majority of the Minecraft-community and they may accept it, but it could still be better. If a gold cart has no function and it absolutely MUST have one, then GIVE IT ONE! It's not like it's going to be hard to add a gold cart to the game.
To be honest, it just sounds like you can't take constructive criticism and will stubbornly push your side of the arguement beyond reason. If this were a mod I'd let you do what you want without question, but your pushing this for vanilla release, which unfortunately involves me and everyone else, so try to step outside the box and factor in the rest of the playerbase when you discuss your concepts.
Secondary to that, consider the functionality of Water and Lava. If something near, but not adjacent to, the liquid changes that might alter it's course, nothing happens. Instead it notices only when an adjacent block is updated. The Soul Sand will always be adjacent to the block it affects, so taking it away profides that update, immediately allowing the Sand/Gravel to "look around" and return to normal physics. This seems to fit with the current coding practice. (I haven't actually looked at the code, so feel free to correct me if you have.)
Indeed, that is an accurate analysis of the way blocks function. However the purpose of Soul Sand could be to tell the blocks next to it "don't check for updates until AFTER the soul sand has already been removed"
I don't really think we need to artificially make new ways to help people be creative.
I do. I find it incredibly frustrating that Sand and gravel have this unique ability to cause cascades, and yet there's no way for the player to take advantage of that, and with Sandstone, it's even LESS likely to find places where sand can cascade anymore.
On this and all other points, we have a simple difference of opinion, so I won't try arguing you ad nauseum. I'd like to mention though that there's already a perfectly functional, if inelegant, method to create cascades: torches, signs, ladders, and the like will all hold up sand/gravel, releasing it when the anchor block falls. Yes, you would have to make a pyramid, or put anchoring pillars throughout the cascade region (or do something more creative that I'm too lazy to think of). I find this to be perfectly acceptable for my purposes, so in my opinion, having soul sand act the way you suggest is redundant. People can be equally creative with the existing methods and achieve great results. (I actually just got inspired to create a cascade, so thank you for that. Now where's my graph paper..?)
On this and all other points, we have a simple difference of opinion, so I won't try arguing you ad nauseum. I'd like to mention though that there's already a perfectly functional, if inelegant, method to create cascades: torches, signs, ladders, and the like will all hold up sand/gravel, releasing it when the anchor block falls. Yes, you would have to make a pyramid, or put anchoring pillars throughout the cascade region (or do something more creative that I'm too lazy to think of). I find this to be perfectly acceptable for my purposes, so in my opinion, having soul sand act the way you suggest is redundant. People can be equally creative with the existing methods and achieve great results. (I actually just got inspired to create a cascade, so thank you for that. Now where's my graph paper..?)
In Grey's defense, using torches, signs, ladders, etc to hold up sand or gravel is a bug/exploit that will (hopefully) be fixed in a future update. Having a legitimate alternative to using an exploit is a much better solution.
FYI: I found a use for cascades in PvP. I build a large wall around my base several blocks thick and fill the interior with sand+gravel. When the enemy comes hacking at my wall, they have several layers of cascades to get through before they can get in; meanwhile I pepper them with arrows or tip lava on them from above.
[quote]
[quote]I'm still not fully convinced of Gloomwood. I like the idea that it grows shadows as leaves, but to that end, once to cut it down it should just act as normal logs.(With the exception of freezing water. That it can still do) I could imagine people wanting to use it as a building material to complement their wooden houses. To that end I propose a few things.
In the nether, Gloomwood acts as it's supposed to. However, in the over world, gloomwood logs only produces cold. When grown, Gloomwood trees will still have the shadow leaves like normal.[/quote]Put it on top of or underneath soul sand to prevent it from giving off shadows.
[quote]I would also like to see Gloomwood planks. It can sometimes be a bit boring with just normal wood, seeing as color doesn't seem to vary with tree types. Though, it will still have a difference to normal wood. As said, this is mostly for decoration and building purposes, since a good bit of the fun in minecraft is, of course, building.
Since Gloomwood comes from hell itself, it would be a twisted aberration of what wood really is. To that, I propose that, should Gloomwood in any form catch fire, then that fire will come out as blue, cold fire. You would still take damage from this fire, however, the fire will also cause objects to freeze or be put out(Like torches and fire itself. It'll also work on lava flows, but not lava sources for obvious reasons.)[/quote]
Just like Gloomwood doesn't have actual leaves and can grow upside down, it's actually as much akin to a stalagmite/stalactite, hence why it breaks into "shards" instead of sticks and doesn't even have planks at all. This is due to it's "twisted" nature. there's no possible way for Gloomwood to burn, since it puts out fire on all adjacent blocks, and even turns lava source blocks to obsidian, though destroying itself to do that.
[quote]And continuing on that path, as I've mentioned from before, being able to make torches with gloom shards and coal or something. The idea wasn't for the fire to create light, but to be visible in the darkness. This would create a creepy ambiance to it as all you see in the darkness is floating blue flames.[/quote]I really feel that you're not getting the point of Gloomwood at all. It generates shadows, not "darkfire" or anything like that. Actually, it may be the wording that is getting you confused; Gloomwood doesn't "generate shadows" which is an additive process, it "removes light" which is a subtractive process. There's no reason for it to produce flames of any kind, light casting or not, because it's not producing anything, it's removing.[/quote]
Sorry to say, but that argument doesn't really convince me. It just seems like you want to make something that's "Unique" rather then useful. While I do agree that the whole burning thing can be dropped, you haven't exactly given me any technical or balancing reasons against why Gloomwood planks can't be made.
It's not like I want a grimwood tier of tools or anything, I just want a new building material that functions differently.
Furthermore, your explanation has a flaw to it.
Since grimwood constantly gives off cold and can be used to freeze objects, then why would putting a piece of grimwood into a furnace to freeze water into snow and snow into ice use up grimwood.
As said by another poster, this is being pushed for vanilla release. It would be nice to be able to use a different color of wood for the sake of decoration. This is a game about possibilities. Making a limit like this just to add "uniqueness" is an unnecessary restriction to me.
Since grimwood constantly gives off cold and can be used to freeze objects, then why would putting a piece of grimwood into a furnace to freeze water into snow and snow into ice use up grimwood.
for the same reason that Gloomwood can break when it freezes obsidian. Even Gloomwood has limits, at which point absorbing enough heat is going to be too much for it.
As said by another poster, this is being pushed for vanilla release. It would be nice to be able to use a different color of wood for the sake of decoration. This is a game about possibilities. Making a limit like this just to add "uniqueness" is an unnecessary restriction to me.
Look, do you ask to be able to make planks from glowstone for the sake of decoration? Do you consider it a restriction that you can't? Yes, the game is about possibilities, and it is totally possible to build with gloomwood. you just place the logs directly and deal with the fact that they absorb the surrounding light because that's what gloomwood does, the same way that if you build something out of colored cloth, you don't go clamoring to notch to make them inflammable so that you don't have to worry about what you built burning up on accident.
They don't make planks because Gloomwood just isn't that type of tree. Trees burn and have leaves and grow in the upward direction only, they have saplings that are separate from the "sticks" they produce. Gloomwood is only tree in the sense that it grows and that it can be cut with an axe. That's apparently what it needs to do to survive in the Nether is throw away many of the things that make a tree a tree.
Since grimwood constantly gives off cold and can be used to freeze objects, then why would putting a piece of grimwood into a furnace to freeze water into snow and snow into ice use up grimwood.
for the same reason that Gloomwood can break when it freezes obsidian. Even Gloomwood has limits, at which point absorbing enough heat is going to be too much for it.
I'm gonna disagree with you on this. You'd think living in the Nether for long enough would cause it to absorb heat a lot more than puting it in a in-active furnace.
[quote=GreyAcumen][quote]As said by another poster, this is being pushed for vanilla release. It would be nice to be able to use a different color of wood for the sake of decoration. This is a game about possibilities. Making a limit like this just to add "uniqueness" is an unnecessary restriction to me.[/quote]Look, do you ask to be able to make planks from glowstone for the sake of decoration? Do you consider it a restriction that you can't? Yes, the game is about possibilities, and it is totally possible to build with gloomwood. you just place the logs directly and deal with the fact that they absorb the surrounding light because that's what gloomwood does, the same way that if you build something out of colored cloth, you don't go clamoring to notch to make them inflammable so that you don't have to worry about what you built burning up on accident.
They don't make planks because Gloomwood just isn't that type of tree. Trees burn and have leaves and grow in the upward direction only, they have saplings that are separate from the "sticks" they produce. Gloomwood is only tree in the sense that it grows and that it can be cut with an axe. That's apparently what it needs to do to survive in the Nether is throw away many of the things that make a tree a tree.[/quote]
No, I wouldn't suggest making wooden planks from glow stone. I wouldn't clamor to Notch to make wool inflammable just because it's a decoration. I never said anything about either of those. Do you know why?
Because it makes no sense.
What I'm asking for, is an object that looks like a tree, grows like a tree, and called a tree, acts like a tree in some sense. I refused to accept your original objection to my idea because you didn't give me any technical reasons as to why it couldn't be done.
Now you've taken something I've said and turned it against me so I look like an idiot. I really don't appreciate that.
However, I'm willing to put that past me, and even give you the benefit of the doubt that you may have simply misinterpretation what I was saying. Now, as you said, Gloomwood is only a tree in the sense that it grows from a shard that's been planted in soul sand, and has to be cut with an axe. Other then that, there's nothing remotely relative to it being a tree, and those two reasons alone are VERY weak justifications.
Now, if you could, please give me a reason of why, balance wise, Gloomwood planks can't be implemented.
I love this so much more than the previous Nether Topic.
But how about implementing FireHazurd's Nether Moa and Magmen? They're both great suggestions that would add something new to the world.
And how far away would the Salamander's tongue attack? More than 10 blocks is way overpowered.
Oh, and I can't say I like the gold helmet thing. I agree with the above poster, making it simply be destroyed would be much better than having it turn into a helmet.
And I also think the Troll's skin should be edited to fit the Nether better.
not bad, though my particular philosophy is that Gold Tools should ALWAYS be able to strike insubstantial mobs and blocks. Rather than the Raze Tools actually doing direct damage, just have that rely on their standard chance of being able to set mobs on fire. Also, if it can move through blocks unhindered, it doesn't need to be faster than the player, merely AS fast.
If it can directly injure the player, it would need to be something that only appeared if you HAD the gold or netherraze tools needed to injure it, otherwise that would be ridiculous to not to have any way at all of stopping something like that just because you happened to not have the exact specific tools.
Though that COULD be addressed by having all Zombie Pigmen attack Ghosts on sight. If you couldn't fight back, you'd only need to lead it into a group of Zombie Pigmen. They'd be able to kill it with their gold tools. Of course, it needs some proper Mockup artwork (none of this pacman ghost bullcrap either) to show that it can look both appropriately dangerous and "ghosty" and yet still fit the blocky artstyle of minecraft.
The only problem with the pigmen idea is that there won't be many ghosts left. Zombie Pigmen are pretty much everywhere, and if they attack on sight ghosts will be a rare occurrence. How about they still spawn, but don't chase you unless you have gold/whatever tools. But ironically, the thing they want so much is the only thing that can hurt them. Maybe the key to becoming alive again (everyone knows a ghost's goal is to become living :tongue.gif:) is in gold. This could be a little tedious, but you could program in something that if you throw a gold/whatever tool on the ground, all the ghosts that were chasing you try to cluster around it. And then if a ghost touches the tool on the ground, it disappears (to its former life). I also agree about the speed of the ghost, after actually thinking about it for more than 5 seconds :tongue.gif:
The only problem with this is that I have no idea how to do the artwork for it.. is there a program or something? I was thinking something kind of "dementor-like" but with a covered face, white clothes that glow light blue, and slightly incorporeal.
Quote from SpitefulFox »
I'm coming out of lurking to comment on this.
I'd prefer the Nether just be a palette-swapped overworld than some alien realm with its own rules,
So, you would rather see something that's exactly the same as what you had been seeing than something completely different and interesting.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Amariithynar »
Aesthetics. Give them to us.
Quote from GreyAcumen »
Quote from lxxwj »
I think Grey just hates putting new things into the game unless they can be completely and fully justified for at least 3 uses, not including looking cool.
I'm gonna disagree with you on this. You'd think living in the Nether for long enough would cause it to absorb heat a lot more than puting it in a in-active furnace.
It's not like the player takes damage just by being in the Nether, so the ambient temperature of the Nether is obviously survivable. And with it growing in Soul Sand, it's unlikely that it will have fires sweep across it on a constant basis. Most of it cold nature is likely related more to needing to actively suck light out of it surroundings in order to get enough to survive, and simply sucks the heat out of surrounding blocks as a by product. The same way that torches generate light and also generate heat that can melt ice as a by product. It's not unreasonable to assume that whatever method the furnace uses to force the Gloomwood to direct its chilling effect on a single block would destroy it in the process.
Ultimately all that is just an excuse. The gameplay reason is because Gloomwood is a renewable resource (even if you have to use bonemeal and a special hoe in order to renew it) and so its uses should expend it so that people are encouraged to actively renew it.
It's the primary reason that I objected the Zurich's implementation of crafting the freezer from Gloomwood; you only need 8 Gloomwood blocks to make it, and then there's no reason to gather any more Gloomwood after that except for whatever minor unrelated projects you might have with tool making or redstone activated shadow/cold generators. Either way, the demand would not be high enough to need more than a single cluster of trees, so any further demand can be more easily filled by just finding another cluster of Gloomwood, instead of ever bothering to try growing them.
Quote from lxxwj »
The only problem with the pigmen idea is that there won't be many ghosts left. Zombie Pigmen are pretty much everywhere, and if they attack on sight ghosts will be a rare occurrence.
That's not the case at all. Ghosts can fly after all. Just have them avoid Zombie Pigmen unless actively moving in to attack the player, also keep the zombie pigmen from attacking unless the ghost is actually in range so that they aren't playing follow the leader with it across the entire map.
Quote from SpitefulFox »
I'm coming out of lurking to comment on this.
I'd prefer the Nether just be a palette-swapped overworld than some alien realm with its own rules,
So, you would rather see something that's exactly the same as what you had been seeing than something completely different and interesting.
I THINK that was either sarcasm or trolling, basically designed to provoke just the type of response you gave. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with.
Quote from Equeon »
I love this so much more than the previous Nether Topic.
But how about implementing FireHazurd's Nether Moa and Magmen? They're both great suggestions that would add something new to the world.
While I like the Magmen design, I'm not seeing anything about the concept that would really fit well with the theme of this Nether and what already exists in it, nor anything from their nature that I could expand on that would make them any different than being less effective Salamanders or Trolls.
As for the Moas, I disliked the palette swap feeling that all the "different" versions had. The Aether Mod already has a Moa implemented, and I actually feel it brings quite a bit to the table there, so I'd rather keep that separate from the Nether.
Now what might be worth considering is Firehazurd's Harpy. Its method of attack would actually fit fine with the "no direct damaging mobs" rule that I have for the Aether, but its design lends well to the Nether, and there's no reason it couldn't have direct attacks on top of that.
And how far away would the Salamander's tongue attack? More than 10 blocks is way overpowered.
Not since you can break its hold on you by attacking its tongue. It probably wouldn't be much more than about 15 blocks though. Anything more than that would just be ridiculous looking.
Oh, and I can't say I like the gold helmet thing. I agree with the above poster, making it simply be destroyed would be much better than having it turn into a helmet.
If you're in lava, which is the most likely place that a minecart would actively run into Midas Tears, then it would be destroyed when it touched the lava (either that or you would die from falling into the Midas Tears and Lava) so while it may be a WTF moment, it's generally going to be a rare and fleeting WTF moment. I'm definitely not going to destroy the cart outright though. I'll be illogical if game logic supports, but I will NOT be illogical AND inconsistent.
I suppose I could just have it break into 5 gold ingots the way a boat breaks into planks and sticks when it crashes. That would affect it negatively whether in lava or on rails, would maintain the equivalent material rule, and could simply replace a minecart in the player's quickbar with a stack of 5 gold ingots.
And I also think the Troll's skin should be edited to fit the Nether better.
There's already been discussion about that idea, along with changing the trolls name. I'm thinking that he should maybe be black with Silver stripes or something. I definitely don't want to make him red. Gluttons and Tunnel Mights are already Red, Salamanders are a reddish orange. The Brands should probably also be changes to a metalic gray/silver color to connect in with their attempts to "brand" the player by setting themselves on fire.
Quote from Darkbirth »
No, I wouldn't suggest making wooden planks from glow stone. I wouldn't clamor to Notch to make wool inflammable just because it's a decoration. I never said anything about either of those. Do you know why?
Because it makes no sense.
What I'm asking for, is an object that looks like a tree, grows like a tree, and called a tree, acts like a tree in some sense. I refused to accept your original objection to my idea because you didn't give me any technical reasons as to why it couldn't be done.
It's a Twisted Nether Tree that can even grow upside down, and sucks light out of the air to the point that it actually can freeze things nearby, and you expect to be able to gather planks from it like it's your average poplar. To me, YOU are the one not making sense.
It would be like saying that we should be able to eat Rave Gel. "Sure, they're twisted nether mushrooms that give off oddly colored light, but we can still mix them in a bowl, so why isn't it safe to eat?"
I'm not trying to make you look stupid, I don't even think that anything you're saying is stupid, I just think you have unreasonable expectations. You are expecting a hostile, alien, hellish environment to lend itself to producing things purely for the sake of your own personal aesthetics, which are for some reason to have purple wood to build with. If you want that why not make the suggestion to dye wood along with cloth, just like suggestions for colored sand, sandstone, and stained glass? Either way, that's not for this suggestion to deal with.
If it's the actual concept of building a Gloomwood house or something specific like that, then you can already build with Gloomwood blocks themselves.
And while YOU might only be asking for Gloomwood planks and not Gloomwood tools, it's still a slippery slope for someone else to go "well there are Gloomwood planks, and Gloomshards can be used as the handles for tools, give me one good reason, balancewise, that we can't have Gloomwood tools that make things cold. After all, Gloomwood planks are pretty useless on their own, why do they even exist if you can't make anything from them?" (regardless of the fact that there are really only liquids like water and lava that would be affected by the cold in any concrete manner, which don't have any of the standard tools used on them, so that entire tier is as pointless as the planks)
And that's just the most likely and annoying one. After that you get the people who go "if Gloomwood makes planks, why do the planks make shards instead of sticks?" but it doesn't make sense to plant sticks, so then Gloomwood will also need it's own sapling, and if it has a sapling specific to it, it will need leaves too. Congratulations, Gloomwood is now just a magical tree that makes shadows and cold, and whose "twisted" and "corrupt" nature consists of nothing more than a palette recoloring.
So no. Gloomwood logs give you the material that you can build actual structures with, even your own man-made Gloomwood "trees". Gloomshards can be used as sticks in crafting recipes, and function as both saplings and "torches" that can be activated and deactivated when placed on a Soul Sand block. And when used in a furnace Gloomwood is a fuel that can be stacked to Freeze more blocks in one go than what Gloomshards can do, whereas Gloomshards are more fuel efficient on a per-block basis, but can't stack up as high to freeze as many blocks in a single sitting, giving both a legitimate purpose for being used in a furnace.
Aesthetically, the lack of Gloomwood planks, along with the lack of leaves, and light and heat draining nature convey that this "Tree" is an aberration that only the Nether could have spawned.
Everything is there. Every function is filled and balanced. Adding in Gloomwood planks would be like sticking cards in the spokes of a professional racing bike during the tour de france so it makes that cool noise you like.
While I like the Magmen design, I'm not seeing anything about the concept that would really fit well with the theme of this Nether and what already exists in it, nor anything from their nature that I could expand on that would make them any different than being less effective Salamanders or Trolls.
As for the Moas, I disliked the palette swap feeling that all the "different" versions had. The Aether Mod already has a Moa implemented, and I actually feel it brings quite a bit to the table there, so I'd rather keep that separate from the Nether.
Now what might be worth considering is Firehazurd's Harpy. Its method of attack would actually fit fine with the "no direct damaging mobs" rule that I have for the Aether, but its design lends well to the Nether, and there's no reason it couldn't have direct attacks on top of that.
I like the Magmen because they seem very interesting and intelligent in a world of generally always hostile creatures. The intricate ways to "befriend" them may be hard to implement, but in my opinion it really adds a new realm of depth in a seemingly shallow environment (kill. survive. gather.) [@ "less effective Salamanders or Trolls"] Did you read the entire suggestion? They're neutral creatures which create small colonies in caves. It's a great way to make the Nether more interesting than "everything wants to kill you." Perhaps you could take the suggestion further and have some Pigmen-Magmen interaction. I'd love to bring together the two species and then lead an attack on a Hive or help defend a pigman colony from a Ghast Attack.
And the Moa I really liked because it jumps around and clambers on walls, pouncing on players like how the spiders should be. You shouldn't make it tamable, though.
Not since you can break its hold on you by attacking its tongue. It probably wouldn't be much more than about 15 blocks though. Anything more than that would just be ridiculous looking.
All right, great. I hope the tongue isn't just 1 hit to escape, though. Four or five punches is good, since you can punch RIDICULOUSLY fast. I once killed a Zombie that was trapped in a corner in about 6 seconds with my fists.
If you're in lava, which is the most likely place that a minecart would actively run into Midas Tears, then it would be destroyed when it touched the lava (either that or you would die from falling into the Midas Tears and Lava) so while it may be a WTF moment, it's generally going to be a rare and fleeting WTF moment. I'm definitely not going to destroy the cart outright though. I'll be illogical if game logic supports, but I will NOT be illogical AND inconsistent.
I suppose I could just have it break into 5 gold ingots the way a boat breaks into planks and sticks when it crashes. That would affect it negatively whether in lava or on rails, would maintain the equivalent material rule, and could simply replace a minecart in the player's quickbar with a stack of 5 gold ingots.
Yes, and since you need 5 gold ingots to make a gold helmet, it'll fit the basic idea without being ridiculous like the direct minecart -> helmet.
There's already been discussion about that idea, along with changing the trolls name. I'm thinking that he should maybe be black with Silver stripes or something. I definitely don't want to make him red. Gluttons and Tunnel Mights are already Red, Salamanders are a reddish orange. The Brands should probably also be changes to a metalic gray/silver color to connect in with their attempts to "brand" the player by setting themselves on fire.
How about something brown/black? Like, a contrast between a blacker obsidian and Soul Sand?
[quote=GreyAcumen]It's a Twisted Nether Tree that can even grow upside down, and sucks light out of the air to the point that it actually can freeze things nearby, and you expect to be able to gather planks from it like it's your average poplar. To me, YOU are the one not making sense.
It would be like saying that we should be able to eat Rave Gel. "Sure, they're twisted nether mushrooms that give off oddly colored light, but we can still mix them in a bowl, so why isn't it safe to eat?"
I'm not trying to make you look stupid, I don't even think that anything you're saying is stupid, I just think you have unreasonable expectations. You are expecting a hostile, alien, hellish environment to lend itself to producing things purely for the sake of your own personal aesthetics, which are for some reason to have purple wood to build with. If you want that why not make the suggestion to dye wood along with cloth, just like suggestions for colored sand, sandstone, and stained glass? Either way, that's not for this suggestion to deal with.
If it's the actual concept of building a Gloomwood house or something specific like that, then you can already build with Gloomwood blocks themselves.
And while YOU might only be asking for Gloomwood planks and not Gloomwood tools, it's still a slippery slope for someone else to go "well there are Gloomwood planks, and Gloomshards can be used as the handles for tools, give me one good reason, balancewise, that we can't have Gloomwood tools that make things cold. After all, Gloomwood planks are pretty useless on their own, why do they even exist if you can't make anything from them?" (regardless of the fact that there are really only liquids like water and lava that would be affected by the cold in any concrete manner, which don't have any of the standard tools used on them, so that entire tier is as pointless as the planks)
And that's just the most likely and annoying one. After that you get the people who go "if Gloomwood makes planks, why do the planks make shards instead of sticks?" but it doesn't make sense to plant sticks, so then Gloomwood will also need it's own sapling, and if it has a sapling specific to it, it will need leaves too. Congratulations, Gloomwood is now just a magical tree that makes shadows and cold, and whose "twisted" and "corrupt" nature consists of nothing more than a palette recoloring.
So no. Gloomwood logs give you the material that you can build actual structures with, even your own man-made Gloomwood "trees". Gloomshards can be used as sticks in crafting recipes, and function as both saplings and "torches" that can be activated and deactivated when placed on a Soul Sand block. And when used in a furnace Gloomwood is a fuel that can be stacked to Freeze more blocks in one go than what Gloomshards can do, whereas Gloomshards are more fuel efficient on a per-block basis, but can't stack up as high to freeze as many blocks in a single sitting, giving both a legitimate purpose for being used in a furnace.
Aesthetically, the lack of Gloomwood planks, along with the lack of leaves, and light and heat draining nature convey that this "Tree" is an aberration that only the Nether could have spawned.
Everything is there. Every function is filled and balanced. Adding in Gloomwood planks would be like sticking cards in the spokes of a professional racing bike during the tour de france so it makes that cool noise you like.[/quote]
Well, when it's all said and done, why bother have it a tree in the first place? You can easily say it's something like "Shade Ice" or "Gloom Stone" Or even "Permafrost." While it would be novel to have a tree in the nether, your explanation only make it sound like you want it to be a tree for the sake of being a tree.
Heck, I could pretty much come up with a more fitting ideas. For instance, the gloomwood trees won't grow leaves and stay bare. How will they renew, then? By planting saplings. Yes, normal saplings in soul sand. You'll probably go about telling me that it doesn't make sense. Well, look at the name. "Soul" sand. It wouldn't be a leap of logic to say that there are souls of people in that sand? As a matter of fact, it would be all that more interesting. When you plant the sapling, the souls of the tormented, sorrowful and bitter flow into the tree and twist it into what it is.
The idea of them burning cold would also work to idea of them being used in the furnace as a way to freeze objects. It would also be interesting.
Furthermore, you can argue against your stand on gloomwood tools, going by what your idea of corrosive environment, you could make them useful by having all earth, or overworld, tools(Except maybe Gold) do less damage and mine much slower. To make any headway, you'd NEED gloom wood tools. Sure, it may seem like simply adding a tier, but you could also work with it's effects a bit. For instance: It was grown on soul sand. Therefore, why not have it that hitting enemies with a gloomwood sword would slow them down(As a mater of fact, aren't some of the enemies in the nether faster then the player?). Or, since it causes such biter cold, each time you use a gloomwood tool in the overworld, there's a chance of getting a snowball as well?(A little silly, I know.)
In fact, going by the cold design, they would also be able to gather what other tools can't.
The pickax could have a chance of gathering an ice block rather then breaking it.
The Shovel will have a chance to pick up snow block rather then just snow balls.
The Hoe would be able to till soul sand(To plant things from the nether in), and even have a random chance to, when tilling, cause a mushroom to grow.(A little strange, maybe...)
The axe... Well... One idea is that, when using the axe on tree leaves they have a chance of dropping sticks, or maybe they could be used on glass with a less likely chance of breaking them. I'm not fully sure myself.
Tee tools would also fit in with the environment theme as they would be less powerful and have less durability in the overworld. As for their durability and strength, I'd say stone, or something between stone and wood.
So there you go. Something I came up with that may work for gloomwood trees, rather then you... overly abstract idea.
I like the Magmen because they seem very interesting and intelligent in a world of generally always hostile creatures. The intricate ways to "befriend" them may be hard to implement, but in my opinion it really adds a new realm of depth in a seemingly shallow environment (kill. survive. gather.) [@ "less effective Salamanders or Trolls"] Did you read the entire suggestion? They're neutral creatures which create small colonies in caves. It's a great way to make the Nether more interesting than "everything wants to kill you." Perhaps you could take the suggestion further and have some Pigmen-Magmen interaction. I'd love to bring together the two species and then lead an attack on a Hive or help defend a pigman colony from a Ghast Attack.
I would only grudgingly accept colony style mobs being implemented in the Overworld (Though I would support the Hive in the Overworld happily) but I really feel that type of thing should be kept to an absolute minimum in the Nether. The Zombie Pigmen fills that slot.
And the Moa I really liked because it jumps around and clambers on walls, pouncing on players like how the spiders should be. You shouldn't make it tamable, though.
The Brand already does that.
All right, great. I hope the tongue isn't just 1 hit to escape, though. Four or five punches is good, since you can punch RIDICULOUSLY fast. I once killed a Zombie that was trapped in a corner in about 6 seconds with my fists
You can break it in one hit provided you have a strong enough weapon. Keep in mind that it's going to reel you in fairly quickly, and there may be more than one present to lasso you, so you wont have time to leisurely wear the tongue out.
Yes, and since you need 5 gold ingots to make a gold helmet, it'll fit the basic idea without being ridiculous like the direct minecart -> helmet.
I'll talk to sabata about making those changes.
How about something brown/black? Like, a contrast between a blacker obsidian and Soul Sand?
Interesting thought. I'll play around with Photoshop and see if I can get something decent.
Quote from SpitefulFox »
My difference in opinion being said, I think your design as it is right now is different, but not TOO different. Overworld tools still work, even if at an disadvantage, Nether tools add new options to the overworld in spite of their decreased effectiveness, and the Overworld itself has plenty of resources that can only be gained through killing mobs. There's a good balance, and I like this suggestion significantly more than the current Nether or any other suggestions I've seen and wholeheartedly support its implementation.
Wow... I know it's silly, but that type of assessment seriously brings a tear to my eye. Pretty much each specific point you brought up was exactly what I was aiming for those ideas to achieve. It's honestly a pretty big deal when I can see that those intentions have been conveyed and understood successfully.
Quote from Darkbirth »
Well, when it's all said and done, why bother have it a tree in the first place? You can easily say it's something like "Shade Ice" or "Gloom Stone" Or even "Permafrost." While it would be novel to have a tree in the nether, your explanation only make it sound like you want it to be a tree for the sake of being a tree.
It can be grown. So it's not just a stone.
Heck, I could pretty much come up with a more fitting ideas. For instance, the gloomwood trees won't grow leaves and stay bare. How will they renew, then? By planting saplings. Yes, normal saplings in soul sand. You'll probably go about telling me that it doesn't make sense. Well, look at the name. "Soul" sand. It wouldn't be a leap of logic to say that there are souls of people in that sand? As a matter of fact, it would be all that more interesting. When you plant the sapling, the souls of the tormented, sorrowful and bitter flow into the tree and twist it into what it is.
Your take has already failed in my eyes for two points.
1) If Gloomwood requires regular saplings to grow, then the player can't grow them unless they bring them in from the Overworld to the Nether. (and that's not even mentioning the fact that saplings are supposed to break into sticks when you try to plant them anywhere in the Nether) Even though it may be difficult as "Hell" to make survive without ever going back to the Overworld, all aspects of the Nether CAN be explored with just a Workbench and a Furnace going in.(obviously some iron tools, some armor, a bow and arrow, some healing items and some snowballs would help though) I can go into detail on these steps in another post if you want.
2) I the only way gloomwood grows is through regular saplings, then how did the gloomwood get there in the first place? Since gloomwood doesn't drop saplings, that means that EVERY single occurrence of gloomwood had to have come from a regular sapling at some point.
{Snip - Gloom wood tool ideas}
Sorry. I realize that you probably came up with the ideas for Gloomwood tools on the spot, and as far as that goes, it wasn't too bad, but I still just wasn't terribly impressed.
So there you go. Something I came up with that may work for gloomwood trees, rather then you... overly abstract idea.
It's not abstract, it's just doesn't do all the things a regular tree does. I don't know why the issue that you don't have a way to make gloomwood planks to build with, even though you can build directly with Gloomwood logs, causes you such grief. If you wanted, you could always retexture Gloomwood Logs to look like planks.
[quote=GreyAcumen] [quote=]Well' date=' when it's all said and done, why bother have it a tree in the first place? You can easily say it's something like "Shade Ice" or "Gloom Stone" Or even "Permafrost." While it would be novel to have a tree in the nether, your explanation only make it sound like you want it to be a tree for the sake of being a tree.[/quote']
It can be grown. So it's not just a stone.[/quote]
That's a horribly weak justification. If you can't come up with anything besides "It can be grown," don't bother calling it a tree.
[quote][quote]Heck, I could pretty much come up with a more fitting ideas. For instance, the gloomwood trees won't grow leaves and stay bare. How will they renew, then? By planting saplings. Yes, normal saplings in soul sand. You'll probably go about telling me that it doesn't make sense. Well, look at the name. "Soul" sand. It wouldn't be a leap of logic to say that there are souls of people in that sand? As a matter of fact, it would be all that more interesting. When you plant the sapling, the souls of the tormented, sorrowful and bitter flow into the tree and twist it into what it is.[/quote]
Your take has already failed in my eyes for two points.
~snip[/quote]
Alright, I'll give you that. However, you have to remember: The nether is basically hell. Things as unsubstantial as emotions be given form. As such, joy, love and anything like that could be twisted into a tree like form, thus requiring no saplings. Next, the nether is full of lava. It's needless to say that some creature with at enough intellect could create their own portal to the over world. They could have come and taken some saplings back with them. In the same vain, people, maybe even the pig men, opened a portal to the nether and went in, bring trees and sapling with them.
Though,if you want to talk about ideas failing, you said that, if sapling were planted anywhere in the nether, they would turn into sticks. However, in you 2x2 grid topic, you stated that you can make a stick from 2 saplings. Notice some inconsistencies there?
[quote][quote] {Snip - Gloom wood tool ideas}[/quote]
Sorry. I realize that you probably came up with the ideas for Gloomwood tools on the spot, and as far as that goes, it wasn't too bad, but I still just wasn't terribly impressed.[/quote]
Then why not help develop them? Make them more interesting or useful? Like I said, the tools themselves wouldn't be all that powerful, but their use would be in their ability to slow enemies down. From what I've seen of the enemies, some of them are faster then the player and some don't even flinch. A weapon that can slow them down would help give you a chance in fighting them.
[quote][quote] So there you go. Something I came up with that may work for gloomwood trees, rather then you... overly abstract idea.[/quote]
It's not abstract, it's just doesn't do all the things a regular tree does. I don't know why the issue that you don't have a way to make gloomwood planks to build with, even though you can build directly with Gloomwood logs, causes you such grief. If you wanted, you could always retexture Gloomwood Logs to look like planks.[/quote]
Okay, I have not fully explained myself on this one. My problem isn't just the planks anymore, but the fact that "Gloomwood" isn't wood at all. It's ice, or a rock that grows from one of it's own pieces. If you had called it ANYTHING besides gloomwood, I would have bought it. However, you instead take an idea of some else's and do something completely different then what the original intent was... I think. I'm not fully sure who made the first gloomwood or anything.
On the same subject, think of a new player playing the game. They enter the nether, see the gloomwood tree and cut it down with and axe. When they go to craft it, they find gloom shard rather then planks. Needless to say, that would confuse them.
Finally, don't patronize me with the whole "re-texture," thing. Sure, I could use logs for my decoration, but what if I want to make floors or ceilings? It wouldn't mesh together well. That, and it'll constantly produce darkness, which would cause problems for quite a few reasons. And with what you said about placing it on soul sand, does it extend further, or just on the log that's touching the sand? Also, what if the sand gets turned into dirt because of the blight mechanic? Not to mention, soul sand isn't a very good decoration piece seeing as how it's kind of ugly.
So, there you are. You can't simply justify gloomwood being gloomwood simply by saying "it grow and needs to be chopped down with an axe- wait a minute. If it's basically like dry ice, why would it need an axe to chop it down in the first place? That's another flaw I find in it. I'm sorry, Grey. You're a smart guy, but I just can't accept your idea for gloomwood.
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Curse PremiumPraise be to Spode.
After thinking it over, I actually do agree with the direction you want to take this. However, there are a few things that still bug me.
First of all, the Trolls. Not the Trolls themselves, just the names. I don't think Troll really fits with the theme of hell, so I wish to propose alternate names:
Ogre(Ogres, I think in some myths, are demons. Plus, you can easily see this thing being a ogre.)
Abomination(Not likely for obvious reasons.)
Aberration
Dreadnought
Wrath
Tormented
Greater Demon
On the subject of Mushraves, you have to admit that that's a silly name. Still, I agree it shouldn't just be called nethershrooms. Here are a few more names.
Blister Caps
Gloom Caps
Dreadshrooms
Lumenshrooms
Mercy caps
Weepshrooms.
Next is the midus tears. I'm not particularly happy with them, but I don't have much reason as to get rid of them.
I'm still not fully convinced of Gloomwood. I like the idea that it grows shadows as leaves, but to that end, once to cut it down it should just act as normal logs.(With the exception of freezing water. That it can still do) I could imagine people wanting to use it as a building material to complement their wooden houses. To that end I propose a few things.
In the nether, Gloomwood acts as it's supposed to. However, in the over world, gloomwood logs only produces cold. When grown, Gloomwood trees will still have the shadow leaves like normal.
I would also like to see Gloomwood planks. It can sometimes be a bit boring with just normal wood, seeing as color doesn't seem to vary with tree types. Though, it will still have a difference to normal wood. As said, this is mostly for decoration and building purposes, since a good bit of the fun in minecraft is, of course, building.
Since Gloomwood comes from hell itself, it would be a twisted aberration of what wood really is. To that, I propose that, should Gloomwood in any form catch fire, then that fire will come out as blue, cold fire. You would still take damage from this fire, however, the fire will also cause objects to freeze or be put out(Like torches and fire itself. It'll also work on lava flows, but not lava sources for obvious reasons.)
And continuing on that path, as I've mentioned from before, being able to make torches with gloom shards and coal or something. The idea wasn't for the fire to create light, but to be visible in the darkness. This would create a creepy ambiance to it as all you see in the darkness is floating blue flames.
That's what I think, at least. I hope you like some of my ideas.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Particularly since the Larger bones are currently being called Demon Bones. Another name that is worth considering is "Fiend"
However if the name gets changed, I think it should also get a texture update. maybe something stripier.
I'm not really fond of any of these names. Silly or not, it's still fitting what the Mushraves actually do; provide colored lighting.
Put it on top of or underneath soul sand to prevent it from giving off shadows.
Just like Gloomwood doesn't have actual leaves and can grow upside down, it's actually as much akin to a stalagmite/stalactite, hence why it breaks into "shards" instead of sticks and doesn't even have planks at all. This is due to it's "twisted" nature. there's no possible way for Gloomwood to burn, since it puts out fire on all adjacent blocks, and even turns lava source blocks to obsidian, though destroying itself to do that.
I really feel that you're not getting the point of Gloomwood at all. It generates shadows, not "darkfire" or anything like that. Actually, it may be the wording that is getting you confused; Gloomwood doesn't "generate shadows" which is an additive process, it "removes light" which is a subtractive process. There's no reason for it to produce flames of any kind, light casting or not, because it's not producing anything, it's removing.
Salamander and Troll are both Ranged. Zombie Pigmen have a chance of having a ranged supplementary attack that makes it easier for the other pigment to attack you without you being able to defend yourself, and ghasts have had their ranged attack improved. I think we're good.
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Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
So the real threat of carting through lava is the chance of running over a single MT source somewhere, falling out and dying, all your stuff then lands in the lava and it all gets destroyed. Essentially a MT block in the lava is an instant game-stopper (you've got no gear in the Nether; you're forced to return and gear up again). This is not fun. Midas Tears, if at all, should be kept seperate from lava, just as how water and lava currently react to each other (solid block is generated to seperate them).
I'm talking about this:
Apart from the griefing, if a Midas Tears block generates or gets placed at the base of a hill or mountain, it's going to cut a hole through the base of it and make it look 'wrong'. You'll be seeing gloomwood trees floating atop the pools of Midas Tears. It will basically ruin the landscape.
No Minecraft doesn't NEED to be realistic, but it helps. In any case, there's a fine line between Realism and Logic.
You say a golden minecart has no purpose... well it has about as much purpose as a gold helmet. It is even more logical than a gold helmet. It is more consistent with the concept. The only link the gold helmet has to a cart is it has the same crafting components; otherwise it is a completely different item. The only reason why you suggested cart=helmet was because you were looking for existing items to use for the conversion. Cart=Helmet is not logical. If you put cart=helmet in the game, you will get a big, fat "WTF?" from the majority of the Minecraft-community and they may accept it, but it could still be better. If a gold cart has no function and it absolutely MUST have one, then GIVE IT ONE! It's not like it's going to be hard to add a gold cart to the game.
To be honest, it just sounds like you can't take constructive criticism and will stubbornly push your side of the arguement beyond reason. If this were a mod I'd let you do what you want without question, but your pushing this for vanilla release, which unfortunately involves me and everyone else, so try to step outside the box and factor in the rest of the playerbase when you discuss your concepts.
/rant
On this and all other points, we have a simple difference of opinion, so I won't try arguing you ad nauseum. I'd like to mention though that there's already a perfectly functional, if inelegant, method to create cascades: torches, signs, ladders, and the like will all hold up sand/gravel, releasing it when the anchor block falls. Yes, you would have to make a pyramid, or put anchoring pillars throughout the cascade region (or do something more creative that I'm too lazy to think of). I find this to be perfectly acceptable for my purposes, so in my opinion, having soul sand act the way you suggest is redundant. People can be equally creative with the existing methods and achieve great results. (I actually just got inspired to create a cascade, so thank you for that. Now where's my graph paper..?)
In Grey's defense, using torches, signs, ladders, etc to hold up sand or gravel is a bug/exploit that will (hopefully) be fixed in a future update. Having a legitimate alternative to using an exploit is a much better solution.
FYI: I found a use for cascades in PvP. I build a large wall around my base several blocks thick and fill the interior with sand+gravel. When the enemy comes hacking at my wall, they have several layers of cascades to get through before they can get in; meanwhile I pepper them with arrows or tip lava on them from above.
Look, do you ask to be able to make planks from glowstone for the sake of decoration? Do you consider it a restriction that you can't? Yes, the game is about possibilities, and it is totally possible to build with gloomwood. you just place the logs directly and deal with the fact that they absorb the surrounding light because that's what gloomwood does, the same way that if you build something out of colored cloth, you don't go clamoring to notch to make them inflammable so that you don't have to worry about what you built burning up on accident.
They don't make planks because Gloomwood just isn't that type of tree. Trees burn and have leaves and grow in the upward direction only, they have saplings that are separate from the "sticks" they produce. Gloomwood is only tree in the sense that it grows and that it can be cut with an axe. That's apparently what it needs to do to survive in the Nether is throw away many of the things that make a tree a tree.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
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Retired StaffI'm gonna disagree with you on this. You'd think living in the Nether for long enough would cause it to absorb heat a lot more than puting it in a in-active furnace.
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But how about implementing FireHazurd's Nether Moa and Magmen? They're both great suggestions that would add something new to the world.
And how far away would the Salamander's tongue attack? More than 10 blocks is way overpowered.
Oh, and I can't say I like the gold helmet thing. I agree with the above poster, making it simply be destroyed would be much better than having it turn into a helmet.
And I also think the Troll's skin should be edited to fit the Nether better.
The only problem with the pigmen idea is that there won't be many ghosts left. Zombie Pigmen are pretty much everywhere, and if they attack on sight ghosts will be a rare occurrence. How about they still spawn, but don't chase you unless you have gold/whatever tools. But ironically, the thing they want so much is the only thing that can hurt them. Maybe the key to becoming alive again (everyone knows a ghost's goal is to become living :tongue.gif:) is in gold. This could be a little tedious, but you could program in something that if you throw a gold/whatever tool on the ground, all the ghosts that were chasing you try to cluster around it. And then if a ghost touches the tool on the ground, it disappears (to its former life). I also agree about the speed of the ghost, after actually thinking about it for more than 5 seconds :tongue.gif:
The only problem with this is that I have no idea how to do the artwork for it.. is there a program or something? I was thinking something kind of "dementor-like" but with a covered face, white clothes that glow light blue, and slightly incorporeal.
So, you would rather see something that's exactly the same as what you had been seeing than something completely different and interesting.
Ultimately all that is just an excuse. The gameplay reason is because Gloomwood is a renewable resource (even if you have to use bonemeal and a special hoe in order to renew it) and so its uses should expend it so that people are encouraged to actively renew it.
It's the primary reason that I objected the Zurich's implementation of crafting the freezer from Gloomwood; you only need 8 Gloomwood blocks to make it, and then there's no reason to gather any more Gloomwood after that except for whatever minor unrelated projects you might have with tool making or redstone activated shadow/cold generators. Either way, the demand would not be high enough to need more than a single cluster of trees, so any further demand can be more easily filled by just finding another cluster of Gloomwood, instead of ever bothering to try growing them.
That's not the case at all. Ghosts can fly after all. Just have them avoid Zombie Pigmen unless actively moving in to attack the player, also keep the zombie pigmen from attacking unless the ghost is actually in range so that they aren't playing follow the leader with it across the entire map.
I THINK that was either sarcasm or trolling, basically designed to provoke just the type of response you gave. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with.
While I like the Magmen design, I'm not seeing anything about the concept that would really fit well with the theme of this Nether and what already exists in it, nor anything from their nature that I could expand on that would make them any different than being less effective Salamanders or Trolls.
As for the Moas, I disliked the palette swap feeling that all the "different" versions had. The Aether Mod already has a Moa implemented, and I actually feel it brings quite a bit to the table there, so I'd rather keep that separate from the Nether.
Now what might be worth considering is Firehazurd's Harpy. Its method of attack would actually fit fine with the "no direct damaging mobs" rule that I have for the Aether, but its design lends well to the Nether, and there's no reason it couldn't have direct attacks on top of that.
Not since you can break its hold on you by attacking its tongue. It probably wouldn't be much more than about 15 blocks though. Anything more than that would just be ridiculous looking.
If you're in lava, which is the most likely place that a minecart would actively run into Midas Tears, then it would be destroyed when it touched the lava (either that or you would die from falling into the Midas Tears and Lava) so while it may be a WTF moment, it's generally going to be a rare and fleeting WTF moment. I'm definitely not going to destroy the cart outright though. I'll be illogical if game logic supports, but I will NOT be illogical AND inconsistent.
I suppose I could just have it break into 5 gold ingots the way a boat breaks into planks and sticks when it crashes. That would affect it negatively whether in lava or on rails, would maintain the equivalent material rule, and could simply replace a minecart in the player's quickbar with a stack of 5 gold ingots.
There's already been discussion about that idea, along with changing the trolls name. I'm thinking that he should maybe be black with Silver stripes or something. I definitely don't want to make him red. Gluttons and Tunnel Mights are already Red, Salamanders are a reddish orange. The Brands should probably also be changes to a metalic gray/silver color to connect in with their attempts to "brand" the player by setting themselves on fire.
It's a Twisted Nether Tree that can even grow upside down, and sucks light out of the air to the point that it actually can freeze things nearby, and you expect to be able to gather planks from it like it's your average poplar. To me, YOU are the one not making sense.
It would be like saying that we should be able to eat Rave Gel. "Sure, they're twisted nether mushrooms that give off oddly colored light, but we can still mix them in a bowl, so why isn't it safe to eat?"
I'm not trying to make you look stupid, I don't even think that anything you're saying is stupid, I just think you have unreasonable expectations. You are expecting a hostile, alien, hellish environment to lend itself to producing things purely for the sake of your own personal aesthetics, which are for some reason to have purple wood to build with. If you want that why not make the suggestion to dye wood along with cloth, just like suggestions for colored sand, sandstone, and stained glass? Either way, that's not for this suggestion to deal with.
If it's the actual concept of building a Gloomwood house or something specific like that, then you can already build with Gloomwood blocks themselves.
And while YOU might only be asking for Gloomwood planks and not Gloomwood tools, it's still a slippery slope for someone else to go "well there are Gloomwood planks, and Gloomshards can be used as the handles for tools, give me one good reason, balancewise, that we can't have Gloomwood tools that make things cold. After all, Gloomwood planks are pretty useless on their own, why do they even exist if you can't make anything from them?" (regardless of the fact that there are really only liquids like water and lava that would be affected by the cold in any concrete manner, which don't have any of the standard tools used on them, so that entire tier is as pointless as the planks)
And that's just the most likely and annoying one. After that you get the people who go "if Gloomwood makes planks, why do the planks make shards instead of sticks?" but it doesn't make sense to plant sticks, so then Gloomwood will also need it's own sapling, and if it has a sapling specific to it, it will need leaves too. Congratulations, Gloomwood is now just a magical tree that makes shadows and cold, and whose "twisted" and "corrupt" nature consists of nothing more than a palette recoloring.
So no. Gloomwood logs give you the material that you can build actual structures with, even your own man-made Gloomwood "trees". Gloomshards can be used as sticks in crafting recipes, and function as both saplings and "torches" that can be activated and deactivated when placed on a Soul Sand block. And when used in a furnace Gloomwood is a fuel that can be stacked to Freeze more blocks in one go than what Gloomshards can do, whereas Gloomshards are more fuel efficient on a per-block basis, but can't stack up as high to freeze as many blocks in a single sitting, giving both a legitimate purpose for being used in a furnace.
Aesthetically, the lack of Gloomwood planks, along with the lack of leaves, and light and heat draining nature convey that this "Tree" is an aberration that only the Nether could have spawned.
Everything is there. Every function is filled and balanced. Adding in Gloomwood planks would be like sticking cards in the spokes of a professional racing bike during the tour de france so it makes that cool noise you like.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
I like the Magmen because they seem very interesting and intelligent in a world of generally always hostile creatures. The intricate ways to "befriend" them may be hard to implement, but in my opinion it really adds a new realm of depth in a seemingly shallow environment (kill. survive. gather.) [@ "less effective Salamanders or Trolls"] Did you read the entire suggestion? They're neutral creatures which create small colonies in caves. It's a great way to make the Nether more interesting than "everything wants to kill you." Perhaps you could take the suggestion further and have some Pigmen-Magmen interaction. I'd love to bring together the two species and then lead an attack on a Hive or help defend a pigman colony from a Ghast Attack.
And the Moa I really liked because it jumps around and clambers on walls, pouncing on players like how the spiders should be. You shouldn't make it tamable, though.
All right, great. I hope the tongue isn't just 1 hit to escape, though. Four or five punches is good, since you can punch RIDICULOUSLY fast. I once killed a Zombie that was trapped in a corner in about 6 seconds with my fists.
Yes, and since you need 5 gold ingots to make a gold helmet, it'll fit the basic idea without being ridiculous like the direct minecart -> helmet.
How about something brown/black? Like, a contrast between a blacker obsidian and Soul Sand?
The Brand already does that.
You can break it in one hit provided you have a strong enough weapon. Keep in mind that it's going to reel you in fairly quickly, and there may be more than one present to lasso you, so you wont have time to leisurely wear the tongue out.
I'll talk to sabata about making those changes.
Interesting thought. I'll play around with Photoshop and see if I can get something decent.
Wow... I know it's silly, but that type of assessment seriously brings a tear to my eye. Pretty much each specific point you brought up was exactly what I was aiming for those ideas to achieve. It's honestly a pretty big deal when I can see that those intentions have been conveyed and understood successfully.
It can be grown. So it's not just a stone.
Your take has already failed in my eyes for two points.
1) If Gloomwood requires regular saplings to grow, then the player can't grow them unless they bring them in from the Overworld to the Nether. (and that's not even mentioning the fact that saplings are supposed to break into sticks when you try to plant them anywhere in the Nether) Even though it may be difficult as "Hell" to make survive without ever going back to the Overworld, all aspects of the Nether CAN be explored with just a Workbench and a Furnace going in.(obviously some iron tools, some armor, a bow and arrow, some healing items and some snowballs would help though) I can go into detail on these steps in another post if you want.
2) I the only way gloomwood grows is through regular saplings, then how did the gloomwood get there in the first place? Since gloomwood doesn't drop saplings, that means that EVERY single occurrence of gloomwood had to have come from a regular sapling at some point.
Sorry. I realize that you probably came up with the ideas for Gloomwood tools on the spot, and as far as that goes, it wasn't too bad, but I still just wasn't terribly impressed.
It's not abstract, it's just doesn't do all the things a regular tree does. I don't know why the issue that you don't have a way to make gloomwood planks to build with, even though you can build directly with Gloomwood logs, causes you such grief. If you wanted, you could always retexture Gloomwood Logs to look like planks.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
[quote=GreyAcumen] [quote=]Well' date=' when it's all said and done, why bother have it a tree in the first place? You can easily say it's something like "Shade Ice" or "Gloom Stone" Or even "Permafrost." While it would be novel to have a tree in the nether, your explanation only make it sound like you want it to be a tree for the sake of being a tree.[/quote'] It can be grown. So it's not just a stone.[/quote] That's a horribly weak justification. If you can't come up with anything besides "It can be grown," don't bother calling it a tree. [quote][quote]Heck, I could pretty much come up with a more fitting ideas. For instance, the gloomwood trees won't grow leaves and stay bare. How will they renew, then? By planting saplings. Yes, normal saplings in soul sand. You'll probably go about telling me that it doesn't make sense. Well, look at the name. "Soul" sand. It wouldn't be a leap of logic to say that there are souls of people in that sand? As a matter of fact, it would be all that more interesting. When you plant the sapling, the souls of the tormented, sorrowful and bitter flow into the tree and twist it into what it is.[/quote] Your take has already failed in my eyes for two points. ~snip[/quote] Alright, I'll give you that. However, you have to remember: The nether is basically hell. Things as unsubstantial as emotions be given form. As such, joy, love and anything like that could be twisted into a tree like form, thus requiring no saplings. Next, the nether is full of lava. It's needless to say that some creature with at enough intellect could create their own portal to the over world. They could have come and taken some saplings back with them. In the same vain, people, maybe even the pig men, opened a portal to the nether and went in, bring trees and sapling with them. Though,if you want to talk about ideas failing, you said that, if sapling were planted anywhere in the nether, they would turn into sticks. However, in you 2x2 grid topic, you stated that you can make a stick from 2 saplings. Notice some inconsistencies there? [quote][quote] {Snip - Gloom wood tool ideas}[/quote] Sorry. I realize that you probably came up with the ideas for Gloomwood tools on the spot, and as far as that goes, it wasn't too bad, but I still just wasn't terribly impressed.[/quote] Then why not help develop them? Make them more interesting or useful? Like I said, the tools themselves wouldn't be all that powerful, but their use would be in their ability to slow enemies down. From what I've seen of the enemies, some of them are faster then the player and some don't even flinch. A weapon that can slow them down would help give you a chance in fighting them. [quote][quote] So there you go. Something I came up with that may work for gloomwood trees, rather then you... overly abstract idea.[/quote] It's not abstract, it's just doesn't do all the things a regular tree does. I don't know why the issue that you don't have a way to make gloomwood planks to build with, even though you can build directly with Gloomwood logs, causes you such grief. If you wanted, you could always retexture Gloomwood Logs to look like planks.[/quote] Okay, I have not fully explained myself on this one. My problem isn't just the planks anymore, but the fact that "Gloomwood" isn't wood at all. It's ice, or a rock that grows from one of it's own pieces. If you had called it ANYTHING besides gloomwood, I would have bought it. However, you instead take an idea of some else's and do something completely different then what the original intent was... I think. I'm not fully sure who made the first gloomwood or anything. On the same subject, think of a new player playing the game. They enter the nether, see the gloomwood tree and cut it down with and axe. When they go to craft it, they find gloom shard rather then planks. Needless to say, that would confuse them. Finally, don't patronize me with the whole "re-texture," thing. Sure, I could use logs for my decoration, but what if I want to make floors or ceilings? It wouldn't mesh together well. That, and it'll constantly produce darkness, which would cause problems for quite a few reasons. And with what you said about placing it on soul sand, does it extend further, or just on the log that's touching the sand? Also, what if the sand gets turned into dirt because of the blight mechanic? Not to mention, soul sand isn't a very good decoration piece seeing as how it's kind of ugly. So, there you are. You can't simply justify gloomwood being gloomwood simply by saying "it grow and needs to be chopped down with an axe- wait a minute. If it's basically like dry ice, why would it need an axe to chop it down in the first place? That's another flaw I find in it. I'm sorry, Grey. You're a smart guy, but I just can't accept your idea for gloomwood.