Saying it's a balance issue is complete bull. Why is everyone else concerned about how balanced the game I'm playing. Like I said, use a anti afk or anti afk fishing plugin for bucket/spigiot and be happy you experience is 'balanced'. I did a quick search, there are a few plugins, problem solved Now stop complaining.
People aren't concerned how balanced the game you're playing is. They're concerned how balanced the game they are playing is. For the same reason you shouldn't need a somewhat-reliable plugin to remove duplication glitches or other exploits, you shouldn't need something to make your game balanced. Games are supposed to be balanced. If you do not want a balanced game, then use cheats to give yourself items, as that would produce the same outcome without making the game unbalanced for people who don't use cheats or play on survival multiplayer servers. Stop telling people they can't play a balanced game.
Also, I'd like to point out that according to the Minecraft Discussion Rules:
Pointing out that a mod/resource pack/tool exists that covers the suggestion is permitted, but dismissing a suggestion based on the existence of said mod is not. The Suggestions section is for vanilla features.
I really do enjoy Hermitcraft Rules on AFK fishing. There are those who do, and those who explicitly do not, and they appear to get along using Vanilla rules just fine. And yes, while there *are* mods, plugins and tools both to support changing fishing, making AFK not work, or other changes to suit personal taste, there appears a great deal of room for, "YOU play the game how YOU wish, and WE are going to enjoy the game in Vanilla how WE wish just fine." I don't get upset over someone on my server "cheating". I get REAL wound up someone ruining the game for someone else, "cheating" or not. "Don't be a jerk" would appear a mod-less way to solve Vanilla AFK fishing issues.
Then what about automated Iron Golem farms? People got really mad when those stopped working for 1 snapshot a few years ago (Mojang made iron a player-only drop in 14w03a for 1.8), but it was worked around immediately by people like Docm77 (using potions of harming).
As I've mentioned before, Iron Golem farms are also unbalanced, albeit they at least require effort and a far larger quantity of resources to build as opposed to an AFK Fish Farm. That doesn't make them balanced, it just makes them slightly more balanced.
Why do you people keep using the threat of "madness" as an argument? I guarantee you that most people will not mass migrate away from Minecraft just because they remove AFK Fish Farms.
That's the thing: no matter how hard you try to anti-automate things, ways will be found to circumvent it.
And the "people will find a workaround" argument makes no sense either. Not only are there ways to almost completely remove any method of AFK Fishing, but I would find any action on this issue better than no action. At least if the Mending Fishing rods were nerfed so that they weren't practically indestructable, this would heavily nerf these farms.
People have made 3*3 auto-cow and auto-sheep farms. People have automated sugar cane, pumpkins, melons, and every other crop in the game.
I'm not saying that any of these are balanced either. Let's at least focus on removing one particularly unbalanced farm and then we can talk about the other farms.
There is no way to remove automated farms that give people items for "zero effort".
Not sure why you chose to increase your font size for emphasis when boldface exists, I assume you think I can't read so I'm going to also assume you're using this for Ad Hominem purposes. Shame on you! I can't believe you would stoop to those levels. (I'm kidding)
Other than the time it takes to build the farm. And in multiplayer, the time it takes to fix potential pranks. And the time it takes to fix the farms after half the patches in the game.
Which is a problem. As soon as we nerf or remove AFK Fish Farms, let's talk about adding a cost to these farms. Maybe there's something we can do to either better handle the large amounts of items created by these farms or how to nerf these farms so that they require more player input.
Just so you know, I am actually a fan of using redstone for automation of some kind since it means redstone can be used for things other than making cool computers or whatever. That being said, getting items for free is a big no-no.
Also, many of the most vocal members of the Minecraft community are the people that use or make Auto-fishers and other auto-farms. Think the HermitCraft and ZipKrowd , SethBling, anyone else that builds on a massive scale in survival. Removing these farms, especially because they aren't, in my and many other's opinions, unbalanced or cheaty, would be massively detrimental to the game.
I've watched a few HermitCraft members. Even some of them, the people who use farms in Minecraft probably more than most people, have begun to refuse using AFK Fish Farms because they are not balanced.
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I do not support this idea.
At the end of the day this not cheating or an exploit, it's basically game mechanics that is automated with redstone. You could get the same items if you manually did it. Same with other farms and villager trading. An exploit and cheating IS duping items and those are patched on a regular basis.
Wrong. The community has no right to decide how they play the Vanilla game. What the community does have are privileges, like the ability to play in so many different styles and to use mods when need be. Mojang has every right to ignore the community's ideas in any way they like and they have every right to take away our privileges. The only right we have is to buy the game or to not buy the game.
People must've loved it if you're being a game designer. You're starting to sound like those shady game designer trying to justify anti-customer practice. By your logic, doesn't every argument you give previously is worthless because you are part of the community you so belittle of. Good job c1ff.
People must've loved it if you're being a game designer. You're starting to sound like those shady game designer trying to justify anti-customer practice. By your logic, doesn't every argument you give previously is worthless because you are part of the community you so belittle of. Good job c1ff.
He sounds more like a dev having to explain why he removed a popular exploit, reasoning that it really hurt balance.
And no, he's not rendering his argument moot, as he's arguing that Mojang decides if AFK fishing is removed or not, and not the community.
At the end of the day this not cheating or an exploit, it's basically game mechanics that is automated with redstone. You could get the same items if you manually did it. Same with other farms and villager trading. An exploit and cheating IS duping items and those are patched on a regular basis.
An exploit is any mechanic that behaves in a way the devs did not expect. AFK fish farms are abusing these mechanics. Mojang did not implement fishing with this in mind.
This wouldn't be much of an issue if this was not cheating, but it is cheating. It provides players who keep the game running all night at an advantage. To illustrate my point, let's say there are two players, Steve and Alex. Steve and Alex play the exact same time each day, but Steve leaves his computer running at night to earn extra loot. Who is going to be at an advantage when all is said and done? Steve. And because Steve hasn't been actually playing the game, just sleeping while the exploit runs, that is cheating.
People must've loved it if you're being a game designer. You're starting to sound like those shady game designer trying to justify anti-customer practice.
Ad Hominem. In addition to that, removing exploits and balancing the game is not "anti-customer practice", nor is it "shady", though it does have something to do with "game design."
By your logic, doesn't every argument you give previously is worthless because you are part of the community you so belittle of. Good job c1ff.
Wrong. By my logic:
- The community does not have full-control over Mojang's decisions, however
- The community can influence their decisions in small ways if Mojang accepts their ideas
- Mojang shouldn't accept the ideas of the community if they are unbalanced or don't fit into the game.
Balance is a far higher priority than what the community thinks. The community is not some omniscient, flawless entity that knows how to design well balanced or fun games, and as this thread proves, it seems as though the community is corrupt enough to keep an exploit in the game despite logic saying that it neither belongs in the game nor does it balance the game.
You seem to have this idea in your head that if a majority of people want AFK Fishing, therefore it is best to keep AFK Fishing. This is not the case. The majority of people can all be passionate about an idea and also be wrong.
You have simplified my arguments into a bash against "duh comyoonitee" in order to create a strawman to fight, rather than reading the context of my statements or the nuances. Congratulations, I hope you're happy I've replied to your off-topic comments about Suggestions and The Community as opposed to AFK Fish Farms.
At the end of the day this not cheating or an exploit, it's basically game mechanics that is automated with redstone. You could get the same items if you manually did it.
Except the difference is that manually doing it requires that the player actually invest effort into casting the line and timing his catch. An AFK Fish Farm turns this process into simply putting a brick on your mouse and waiting.
Same with other farms and villager trading.
Villager Trading actually requires player interaction and input items, unlike this farm.
An exploit and cheating IS duping items and those are patched on a regular basis.
Why is duping items any different from this? The only difference is the far broader range of items you can create, and the fact that you can't set this up to run while you are sleeping or at work.
Maybe a compromise is in order. I don't believe compromises are the solution in every scenario, but at least it gets us somewhere. What if in order to fish, you at least needed input bait items? These would range from cheap items likely to get more fish or junk (Rotten Flesh, Spider Eyes) to far more expensive items that are more likely to get treasure items. (Likely something purchasable from a Villager) This would at least mean that in order to AFK Fish, you need to have an equal amount of input items going in. I still don't think it's entirely balanced, but it is more balanced than the current system.
Heck, if all farms at least required some form of input item, this would make them all far more balanced. I don't expect redstone to start requiring coal power anytime soon, but maybe certain plants like papyrus or melons would only grow if given bonemeal during their final growth stage, otherwise they'd either never finish growing or grow extremely slowly.
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Thank you, C1ff! I agree with your statements, and I appreciate how you handled the
left
. I look forward to reading your posts. I agree with you most of the time, and even when I don't, you give me things to think about.
Our server applies the rule, "Keep it challenging, but fun." We *like* AFK fishing, it is part of the game for us. If it changes, we'll deal with it or mod it the way we like. We can do little but trust Mojang to apply a change to fishing in a way that keeps it "fun" to where we would *not* choose to AFK it. Fishing, as it is, is drudgery. There's really only so much you can do with "fishing" within a game. It sucked pretty badly on Ark: Survival Evolved also, just differently. And if Mojang can't change it to keep it "fun," we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Our game. Our way.
Those who are worried about what other people might choose to do WITHIN THE RULES OF THAT SPECIFIC SERVER have a problem. I'm glad it's not *MY* problem. One of the reasons I run my own server.
Maybe a compromise is in order. I don't believe compromises are the solution in every scenario, but at least it gets us somewhere. What if in order to fish, you at least needed input bait items? These would range from cheap items likely to get more fish or junk (Rotten Flesh, Spider Eyes) to far more expensive items that are more likely to get treasure items. (Likely something purchasable from a Villager) This would at least mean that in order to AFK Fish, you need to have an equal amount of input items going in. I still don't think it's entirely balanced, but it is more balanced than the current system.
I think this is a great idea.
In its current state AFK fishing can be seen as a tool by many but as an exploit by many others. If your suggestion were implemented it'd still be an option to the player but would require a tiny bit of effort.
It would make fishing in general feel more interesting and AFK fishing would at least be different to an overnight use of the "/loot spawn" command.
That isn't good feedback for a suggestion. If they play on servers and other players do this, they have to deal with it if they want to continue to play on that server, even though the other players will have easy access to tons of food and good gear via enchanted books. Saying "don't like it, don't do it" is about as useful as saying "If you want the game changed, just play something else". It is the opposite of what this section is about.
I do agree that it is an exploit and shouldn't be in the game. I would be okay with it being removed.
That however is also not good feedback.
I personally hate changes that are made solely in mind for those that play on servers, like the fighting system change where they added cooldown timers.
As someone who plays single player or on my own private server, those changes are utterly horrible and destroying my fun and experience with the game, as it is forced onto me with no option to opt-out of such changes.
While public servers can just easily mod out things they dislike.
Sorry, but what? In single player you get complete control over what version you play. If you don’t like the combat changes, don’t play 1.9+. Or you can get a simple mod to play the modern version with the spam cli
I do not understand this “forced onto me” part of gaming. Sure, the combat changes were forced onto the vanilla player. But so are those darn creepers! It’s unfair mojang forces creepers onto us! We should be able to remove creepers without mods!
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To be honest, you select what version and what content you play multiplayer as well. This is talk about Vanilla MC, which is the single player content to begin with. Multiplayer is the responsibility of the server owner as Minecraft does not have official servers. They are only responsible for the ability to have Minecraft content on servers. You can easily play 1.8 and lower. I know, I have dabbled on them. I choose not to play on them though.
The point of difficulty is to adjust the game to someone's gaming abilities, so that casual players aren't being turned into skeleton pincushions every night and experienced gamers feel a challenge. They don't exist so experienced gamers can switch to an easier difficulty because of the "ease and convenience."
AFK Fishing Farms are clearly not an intentional feature. They are a limitation of the realism possible with the game since they've chosen a very simple list of checks for "valid fishing conditions." They don't need to exist in the game just because someone would find the game easier if they existed.
If you want to suggest that regular fishing drops should be more common in Peaceful, Easy or Medium than Hard, that would be one conversation. Keeping an unintentional exploit that makes no sense lore-wise, balanced or not, is not good game design.
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My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
My point with creepers is it reaches a point when the game stops becoming a game and more an engine. Let's say Mojang removes AFK Fishing regardless of whether or not this is a "good idea". Should they have this power? Yes because they are already using the power... everywhere. Someone might love the other hostile mobs but desperately want to remove creepers. That is not enough reasoning for Mojang to remove creepers... even if the people who like it can just use a mod.
And this applies everywhere. Someone might want emerald ore removed, from some reason. I don't know. With every feature, Mojang has the right to remove or change. C1ff, I'd argue it doesn't even matter if the feature was intentional or unintentional, even if in this case fish farms weren't planned by Mojang.
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Ok look. Don't pick the one line that was written to be facetious, to try a make a point on. My comment had nothing to do with afk fishing farms, it was getting rid of creepers specifically, and not in a serious fashion. I would assume we are all intelligent or at least of average intelligence to know how game mechanics work in changing difficulty. I Agree with Fish here that whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant. But I would also like to point out examples of things that are put in intentionally like blocks and such make a bad example comparing them to things that are user created resulting in things that are unintentional. Most of the things in Minecraft where users have created things especially with redstone, are unintentional. Hence it being a sandbox. The theme create your own fun. Not following a blueprint. Playing with limited rules.
Most things created with redstone, were unintentional. If it wasn't, there would be a user guide on what to build. No need for creativity. To call it an exploit is a little much. It was definitely unintentional. I mean, we live in a Minecraft you no longer ever have to go in a cave and mine. Which at one time, was half the game. The other half one could argue has only expanded because of it. Remember. I'm not using it, it doesn't benefit me. I do however support the part community that uses it, along with other unintentional creations (Iron farms I.E.) even though I am not a fan. It's the only reason why I sit here taking it.
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Minecraft is a game of possibility and imagination. There are plenty of things that Mojang didn't intend and I bet they like it that way, especially if its a novel way of using the game mechanics. People with suggestion for adding interesting things to the game are wonderful and I'm sure that inspires a lof the the mods that are made. But taking things away shouldn't be Mojangs responsibility. Let that be the wet blankets that write bucket plugins who feel that they have to control or restrict how others play. Minecraft should be for everyone and there is a mod or plugin for everyone out there, if not someone usually writes it. Don't force your restrictive vision on others who don't agree just because it doesn't suit your playstyle or vision of balance.
Ok look. Don't pick the one line that was written to be facetious, to try a make a point on.
Fine.
My comment had nothing to do with afk fishing farms, it was getting rid of creepers specifically, and not in a serious fashion.
I am aware of that. What I am trying to do is draw an analogy, albeit, in this case, it's more of the opposite of an analogy since I'm contrasting the two case studies. (I couldn't find a word for the opposite of an analogy even though I feel like it exists)
I would assume we are all intelligent or at least of average intelligence to know how game mechanics work in changing difficulty.
Considering some of the users (albeit not you) here keep repeating the same talking points over and over again, I have my doubts. (Also I like simple explanations.)
I Agree with Fish here that whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant.
I disagree. Unintentional gameplay exploits tend to look stupid and wrong in any other game, the only reason we give Minecraft a pass on this is that its physics and lore are already stupid and wrong (floating islands, etc.)
I think I misstated my point and I don't blame you for reading me wrong, but what I was trying to convey was: stupid exploits that look dumb, break immersion and abuse limitations in the mechanics of the game shouldn't be kept in the game. That point is especially true if the exploit is unbalanced.
But I would also like to point out examples of things that are put in intentionally like blocks and such make a bad example comparing them to things that are user created resulting in things that are unintentional. Most of the things in Minecraft where users have created things especially with redstone, are unintentional. Hence it being a sandbox. The theme create your own fun. Not following a blueprint. Playing with limited rules.
Two things:
1 - A redstone exploit like Piston Quasi-Connectivity isn't giving people resources, nor does it break the balance in any way besides adding a BUD switch which could enable certain farms. I don't think a BUD switch by itself is that harmful on its own, and we actually have an intentional one in the game now.
2 - There's actually a solid case to be made that weird redstone screw-ups like Quasi-Connectivity should be removed since they create strange exceptions in redstone mechanics that scare away people who are new to redstone. Granted, I think there are far fewer gains and far greater losses from removing QC compared to AFK Fish Farms, but I can see the argument to fix it as they did with the Bedrock Edition.
Most things created with redstone, were unintentional. If it wasn't, there would be a user guide on what to build. No need for creativity.
Okay, now you've stretched what I've said miles beyond its actual meaning. Just because a sandbox game has rules, does not mean that you are locked into constructing only what Mojang has dictated acceptable. It means that you can't build things that break the immersion or allow you to cheat the game's balance.
To call it an exploit is a little much.
That's funny, I seem to remember fishg himself giving his own opinion on this situation...
The wikipedia definition of an exploit is: In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
But sure, AFK Fishing is definitely not an exploit by any means.
I mean, we live in a Minecraft you no longer ever have to go in a cave and mine. Which at one time, was half the game. The other half one could argue has only expanded because of it.
I have no idea why you decided to inject these three sentences into your paragraph, considering this seems unrelated and isn't helping you explain to me why unintentional, immersion-breaking "not exploits" should be left in the game.
Remember. I'm not using it, it doesn't benefit me. I do however support the part community that uses it, along with other unintentional creations (Iron farms I.E.) even though I am not a fan. It's the only reason why I sit here taking it.
Then I appreciate that you at least attempt to argue from logic and not because of "ease", however I now have to ask why you do not use it, considering you have denied in the past that the farm is unbalanced. If the farm is balanced, then there is no harm in using it, and if it is not balanced, then why should people be allowed to cheat through survival with it?
Minecraft is a game of possibility and imagination. There are plenty of things that Mojang didn't intend and I bet they like it that way, especially if its a novel way of using the game mechanics.
I'm okay with "novel ways of using game mechanics" like Quasi-Connectivity (albeit again, it does scare away those who are new to redstone), what I am not okay with are things that break immersion and balance.
People with suggestion for adding interesting things to the game are wonderful and I'm sure that inspires a lof the the mods that are made.
This statement is irrelevant to your argument.
But taking things away shouldn't be Mojangs responsibility.
Yes, it should be. Mojang should take away milking squids even if people think it's a funny bug. It breaks immersion and anyone who isn't in on the joke just sees it as a broken feature left in by lazy developers.
Let that be the wet blankets that write bucket plugins who feel that they have to control or restrict how others play.
I would argue that the opposite should be true. Let Mojang write one balanced survival experience for everyone to play, then you can use mods or "bucket" plugins to screw up the balance and immersion in any way you prefer.
Minecraft should be for everyone and there is a mod or plugin for everyone out there, if not someone usually writes it.
Why is removing an immersion-breaking exploit that gives you free items somehow non-inclusive and discriminatory? In addition, exactly what category of people are turned off by this change other than people who use AFK Fish Farms?
Don't force your restrictive vision on others who don't agree just because it doesn't suit your playstyle or vision of balance.
Have you ever played like, any other game before? Usually in any other game, you can't get high-end powerful items by simply leaving your game running.
That's pretty much all I have to say on this.
And I think I've already thoroughly explained, for about the fourth time, why this specific argument which is apparently "all you have to say on this" (which isn't true, you made multiple different arguments earlier which we've also counterargued) is simply not a good argument when you consider the purpose of game design. Are you converted to our side now or does it turn out that you actually have more to say on this?
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My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
I'm just gonna stick this here: Mojang does intentionally keep some bugs; they did it before with quasi-connectivity. they could easily keep it, and due to the way a fish farm it set up, it'd take a lot more effort to remove the ability to make a working fish farm instead of just leaving it the way it is. besides, fishing loot isn't super good. it's all basic earlygame/midgame resources.
no way! I love fishing and getting free loot.
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People aren't concerned how balanced the game you're playing is. They're concerned how balanced the game they are playing is. For the same reason you shouldn't need a somewhat-reliable plugin to remove duplication glitches or other exploits, you shouldn't need something to make your game balanced. Games are supposed to be balanced. If you do not want a balanced game, then use cheats to give yourself items, as that would produce the same outcome without making the game unbalanced for people who don't use cheats or play on survival multiplayer servers. Stop telling people they can't play a balanced game.
Also, I'd like to point out that according to the Minecraft Discussion Rules:
I would assume this also applies to plugins.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
I really do enjoy Hermitcraft Rules on AFK fishing. There are those who do, and those who explicitly do not, and they appear to get along using Vanilla rules just fine. And yes, while there *are* mods, plugins and tools both to support changing fishing, making AFK not work, or other changes to suit personal taste, there appears a great deal of room for, "YOU play the game how YOU wish, and WE are going to enjoy the game in Vanilla how WE wish just fine." I don't get upset over someone on my server "cheating". I get REAL wound up someone ruining the game for someone else, "cheating" or not. "Don't be a jerk" would appear a mod-less way to solve Vanilla AFK fishing issues.
As I've mentioned before, Iron Golem farms are also unbalanced, albeit they at least require effort and a far larger quantity of resources to build as opposed to an AFK Fish Farm. That doesn't make them balanced, it just makes them slightly more balanced.
Why do you people keep using the threat of "madness" as an argument? I guarantee you that most people will not mass migrate away from Minecraft just because they remove AFK Fish Farms.
And the "people will find a workaround" argument makes no sense either. Not only are there ways to almost completely remove any method of AFK Fishing, but I would find any action on this issue better than no action. At least if the Mending Fishing rods were nerfed so that they weren't practically indestructable, this would heavily nerf these farms.
I'm not saying that any of these are balanced either. Let's at least focus on removing one particularly unbalanced farm and then we can talk about the other farms.
Not sure why you chose to increase your font size for emphasis when boldface exists, I assume you think I can't read so I'm going to also assume you're using this for Ad Hominem purposes. Shame on you! I can't believe you would stoop to those levels. (I'm kidding)
Which is a problem. As soon as we nerf or remove AFK Fish Farms, let's talk about adding a cost to these farms. Maybe there's something we can do to either better handle the large amounts of items created by these farms or how to nerf these farms so that they require more player input.
Just so you know, I am actually a fan of using redstone for automation of some kind since it means redstone can be used for things other than making cool computers or whatever. That being said, getting items for free is a big no-no.
I've watched a few HermitCraft members. Even some of them, the people who use farms in Minecraft probably more than most people, have begun to refuse using AFK Fish Farms because they are not balanced.
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
I do not support this idea.
At the end of the day this not cheating or an exploit, it's basically game mechanics that is automated with redstone. You could get the same items if you manually did it. Same with other farms and villager trading. An exploit and cheating IS duping items and those are patched on a regular basis.
People must've loved it if you're being a game designer. You're starting to sound like those shady game designer trying to justify anti-customer practice. By your logic, doesn't every argument you give previously is worthless because you are part of the community you so belittle of. Good job c1ff.
He sounds more like a dev having to explain why he removed a popular exploit, reasoning that it really hurt balance.
And no, he's not rendering his argument moot, as he's arguing that Mojang decides if AFK fishing is removed or not, and not the community.
Suggestions:
New Death Animations. "Mr Amppl50, I don't feel so good" -fishg
Lead Ore
Wind revamp and hot air balloons.
An exploit is any mechanic that behaves in a way the devs did not expect. AFK fish farms are abusing these mechanics. Mojang did not implement fishing with this in mind.
This wouldn't be much of an issue if this was not cheating, but it is cheating. It provides players who keep the game running all night at an advantage. To illustrate my point, let's say there are two players, Steve and Alex. Steve and Alex play the exact same time each day, but Steve leaves his computer running at night to earn extra loot. Who is going to be at an advantage when all is said and done? Steve. And because Steve hasn't been actually playing the game, just sleeping while the exploit runs, that is cheating.
Ad Hominem. In addition to that, removing exploits and balancing the game is not "anti-customer practice", nor is it "shady", though it does have something to do with "game design."
Wrong. By my logic:
- The community does not have full-control over Mojang's decisions, however
- The community can influence their decisions in small ways if Mojang accepts their ideas
- Mojang shouldn't accept the ideas of the community if they are unbalanced or don't fit into the game.
Balance is a far higher priority than what the community thinks. The community is not some omniscient, flawless entity that knows how to design well balanced or fun games, and as this thread proves, it seems as though the community is corrupt enough to keep an exploit in the game despite logic saying that it neither belongs in the game nor does it balance the game.
You seem to have this idea in your head that if a majority of people want AFK Fishing, therefore it is best to keep AFK Fishing. This is not the case. The majority of people can all be passionate about an idea and also be wrong.
You have simplified my arguments into a bash against "duh comyoonitee" in order to create a strawman to fight, rather than reading the context of my statements or the nuances. Congratulations, I hope you're happy I've replied to your off-topic comments about Suggestions and The Community as opposed to AFK Fish Farms.
Except the difference is that manually doing it requires that the player actually invest effort into casting the line and timing his catch. An AFK Fish Farm turns this process into simply putting a brick on your mouse and waiting.
Villager Trading actually requires player interaction and input items, unlike this farm.
Why is duping items any different from this? The only difference is the far broader range of items you can create, and the fact that you can't set this up to run while you are sleeping or at work.
Maybe a compromise is in order. I don't believe compromises are the solution in every scenario, but at least it gets us somewhere. What if in order to fish, you at least needed input bait items? These would range from cheap items likely to get more fish or junk (Rotten Flesh, Spider Eyes) to far more expensive items that are more likely to get treasure items. (Likely something purchasable from a Villager) This would at least mean that in order to AFK Fish, you need to have an equal amount of input items going in. I still don't think it's entirely balanced, but it is more balanced than the current system.
Heck, if all farms at least required some form of input item, this would make them all far more balanced. I don't expect redstone to start requiring coal power anytime soon, but maybe certain plants like papyrus or melons would only grow if given bonemeal during their final growth stage, otherwise they'd either never finish growing or grow extremely slowly.
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
Thank you, C1ff! I agree with your statements, and I appreciate how you handled the
Our server applies the rule, "Keep it challenging, but fun." We *like* AFK fishing, it is part of the game for us. If it changes, we'll deal with it or mod it the way we like. We can do little but trust Mojang to apply a change to fishing in a way that keeps it "fun" to where we would *not* choose to AFK it. Fishing, as it is, is drudgery. There's really only so much you can do with "fishing" within a game. It sucked pretty badly on Ark: Survival Evolved also, just differently. And if Mojang can't change it to keep it "fun," we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Our game. Our way.
Those who are worried about what other people might choose to do WITHIN THE RULES OF THAT SPECIFIC SERVER have a problem. I'm glad it's not *MY* problem. One of the reasons I run my own server.
I think this is a great idea.
In its current state AFK fishing can be seen as a tool by many but as an exploit by many others. If your suggestion were implemented it'd still be an option to the player but would require a tiny bit of effort.
It would make fishing in general feel more interesting and AFK fishing would at least be different to an overnight use of the "/loot spawn" command.
That however is also not good feedback.
I personally hate changes that are made solely in mind for those that play on servers, like the fighting system change where they added cooldown timers.
As someone who plays single player or on my own private server, those changes are utterly horrible and destroying my fun and experience with the game, as it is forced onto me with no option to opt-out of such changes.
While public servers can just easily mod out things they dislike.
Sorry, but what? In single player you get complete control over what version you play. If you don’t like the combat changes, don’t play 1.9+. Or you can get a simple mod to play the modern version with the spam cli
I do not understand this “forced onto me” part of gaming. Sure, the combat changes were forced onto the vanilla player. But so are those darn creepers! It’s unfair mojang forces creepers onto us! We should be able to remove creepers without mods!
To be honest, you select what version and what content you play multiplayer as well. This is talk about Vanilla MC, which is the single player content to begin with. Multiplayer is the responsibility of the server owner as Minecraft does not have official servers. They are only responsible for the ability to have Minecraft content on servers. You can easily play 1.8 and lower. I know, I have dabbled on them. I choose not to play on them though.
Also, you can remove creepers. Peaceful mode
This is far different from AFK Fishing Farms.
The point of difficulty is to adjust the game to someone's gaming abilities, so that casual players aren't being turned into skeleton pincushions every night and experienced gamers feel a challenge. They don't exist so experienced gamers can switch to an easier difficulty because of the "ease and convenience."
AFK Fishing Farms are clearly not an intentional feature. They are a limitation of the realism possible with the game since they've chosen a very simple list of checks for "valid fishing conditions." They don't need to exist in the game just because someone would find the game easier if they existed.
If you want to suggest that regular fishing drops should be more common in Peaceful, Easy or Medium than Hard, that would be one conversation. Keeping an unintentional exploit that makes no sense lore-wise, balanced or not, is not good game design.
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
My point with creepers is it reaches a point when the game stops becoming a game and more an engine. Let's say Mojang removes AFK Fishing regardless of whether or not this is a "good idea". Should they have this power? Yes because they are already using the power... everywhere. Someone might love the other hostile mobs but desperately want to remove creepers. That is not enough reasoning for Mojang to remove creepers... even if the people who like it can just use a mod.
And this applies everywhere. Someone might want emerald ore removed, from some reason. I don't know. With every feature, Mojang has the right to remove or change. C1ff, I'd argue it doesn't even matter if the feature was intentional or unintentional, even if in this case fish farms weren't planned by Mojang.
Ok look. Don't pick the one line that was written to be facetious, to try a make a point on. My comment had nothing to do with afk fishing farms, it was getting rid of creepers specifically, and not in a serious fashion. I would assume we are all intelligent or at least of average intelligence to know how game mechanics work in changing difficulty. I Agree with Fish here that whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant. But I would also like to point out examples of things that are put in intentionally like blocks and such make a bad example comparing them to things that are user created resulting in things that are unintentional. Most of the things in Minecraft where users have created things especially with redstone, are unintentional. Hence it being a sandbox. The theme create your own fun. Not following a blueprint. Playing with limited rules.
Most things created with redstone, were unintentional. If it wasn't, there would be a user guide on what to build. No need for creativity. To call it an exploit is a little much. It was definitely unintentional. I mean, we live in a Minecraft you no longer ever have to go in a cave and mine. Which at one time, was half the game. The other half one could argue has only expanded because of it. Remember. I'm not using it, it doesn't benefit me. I do however support the part community that uses it, along with other unintentional creations (Iron farms I.E.) even though I am not a fan. It's the only reason why I sit here taking it.
Minecraft is a game of possibility and imagination. There are plenty of things that Mojang didn't intend and I bet they like it that way, especially if its a novel way of using the game mechanics. People with suggestion for adding interesting things to the game are wonderful and I'm sure that inspires a lof the the mods that are made. But taking things away shouldn't be Mojangs responsibility. Let that be the wet blankets that write bucket plugins who feel that they have to control or restrict how others play. Minecraft should be for everyone and there is a mod or plugin for everyone out there, if not someone usually writes it. Don't force your restrictive vision on others who don't agree just because it doesn't suit your playstyle or vision of balance.
That's pretty much all I have to say on this.
Fine.
I am aware of that. What I am trying to do is draw an analogy, albeit, in this case, it's more of the opposite of an analogy since I'm contrasting the two case studies. (I couldn't find a word for the opposite of an analogy even though I feel like it exists)
Considering some of the users (albeit not you) here keep repeating the same talking points over and over again, I have my doubts. (Also I like simple explanations.)
I disagree. Unintentional gameplay exploits tend to look stupid and wrong in any other game, the only reason we give Minecraft a pass on this is that its physics and lore are already stupid and wrong (floating islands, etc.)
I think I misstated my point and I don't blame you for reading me wrong, but what I was trying to convey was: stupid exploits that look dumb, break immersion and abuse limitations in the mechanics of the game shouldn't be kept in the game. That point is especially true if the exploit is unbalanced.
Two things:
1 - A redstone exploit like Piston Quasi-Connectivity isn't giving people resources, nor does it break the balance in any way besides adding a BUD switch which could enable certain farms. I don't think a BUD switch by itself is that harmful on its own, and we actually have an intentional one in the game now.
2 - There's actually a solid case to be made that weird redstone screw-ups like Quasi-Connectivity should be removed since they create strange exceptions in redstone mechanics that scare away people who are new to redstone. Granted, I think there are far fewer gains and far greater losses from removing QC compared to AFK Fish Farms, but I can see the argument to fix it as they did with the Bedrock Edition.
Okay, now you've stretched what I've said miles beyond its actual meaning. Just because a sandbox game has rules, does not mean that you are locked into constructing only what Mojang has dictated acceptable. It means that you can't build things that break the immersion or allow you to cheat the game's balance.
That's funny, I seem to remember fishg himself giving his own opinion on this situation...
But sure, AFK Fishing is definitely not an exploit by any means.
I have no idea why you decided to inject these three sentences into your paragraph, considering this seems unrelated and isn't helping you explain to me why unintentional, immersion-breaking "not exploits" should be left in the game.
Then I appreciate that you at least attempt to argue from logic and not because of "ease", however I now have to ask why you do not use it, considering you have denied in the past that the farm is unbalanced. If the farm is balanced, then there is no harm in using it, and if it is not balanced, then why should people be allowed to cheat through survival with it?
I'm okay with "novel ways of using game mechanics" like Quasi-Connectivity (albeit again, it does scare away those who are new to redstone), what I am not okay with are things that break immersion and balance.
This statement is irrelevant to your argument.
Yes, it should be. Mojang should take away milking squids even if people think it's a funny bug. It breaks immersion and anyone who isn't in on the joke just sees it as a broken feature left in by lazy developers.
I would argue that the opposite should be true. Let Mojang write one balanced survival experience for everyone to play, then you can use mods or "bucket" plugins to screw up the balance and immersion in any way you prefer.
Why is removing an immersion-breaking exploit that gives you free items somehow non-inclusive and discriminatory? In addition, exactly what category of people are turned off by this change other than people who use AFK Fish Farms?
Have you ever played like, any other game before? Usually in any other game, you can't get high-end powerful items by simply leaving your game running.
And I think I've already thoroughly explained, for about the fourth time, why this specific argument which is apparently "all you have to say on this" (which isn't true, you made multiple different arguments earlier which we've also counterargued) is simply not a good argument when you consider the purpose of game design. Are you converted to our side now or does it turn out that you actually have more to say on this?
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
I'm just gonna stick this here: Mojang does intentionally keep some bugs; they did it before with quasi-connectivity. they could easily keep it, and due to the way a fish farm it set up, it'd take a lot more effort to remove the ability to make a working fish farm instead of just leaving it the way it is. besides, fishing loot isn't super good. it's all basic earlygame/midgame resources.
haha unoriginal signature go brr