I'm just gonna stick this here: Mojang does intentionally keep some bugs; they did it before with quasi-connectivity. they could easily keep it, and due to the way a fish farm it set up, it'd take a lot more effort to remove the ability to make a working fish farm instead of just leaving it the way it is. besides, fishing loot isn't super good. it's all basic earlygame/midgame resources.
One of the products of fishing are Enchanted Books, which include Mending. That is a great part of the problem: AFK Fishing makes what was intended to be a rare enchantment very common.
What makes the player to build AFK fishing is simply because they are greedy for loots and rushers.
I don't get why staff bans you from them since Players has talents to build one, is it op? I mean I was in a survival server before, Bukkit, and the installed plugins that are able to bypass the enchantment caps.
If it's Single-player, I rather play the game legit instead of exploiting bugs and something else.
why? because where is fun?
in my opinion, Beginners always Exploit stuff like they just don't care but when times goes on, they will regret what have they done.
I kinda did something like these when I was 14 back in 1.8.9 update, I just don't care.
Regardless of whether or not you enjoy the benefit of AFK fishing, you have to realize one thing: it is not fun. The only reason people like AFK fishing isn't because it's engaging or there's something satisfying about it. It's the fact that you can get item, rare ones even, at the cost of virtually nothing. Good game design is when Player enjoyed getting engaged in the game they're playing. The rewards shouldn't be the only thing that keeps the player engaged, but also the journey.
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It may be appropriate to refer to some form of "fishing game/ game that has fishing in it" where the fishing was actually "fun". For the life of me, I can't think of anything. What would "fun" fishing look like? My idea of "real life fishing" is going to the local market with my debit card and bringing home something already cleaned and ready to prepare for eating.
It may be appropriate to refer to some form of "fishing game/ game that has fishing in it" where the fishing was actually "fun". For the life of me, I can't think of anything. What would "fun" fishing look like? My idea of "real life fishing" is going to the local market with my debit card and bringing home something already cleaned and ready to prepare for eating.
I feel like we have all exhausted our respective points here, but I'll drop one final argument for removing afk fish farms- what if there was an afk diamond farm? Should Mojang remove that? If you find yourself answering yes, Mojang should remove afk diamond farms, then afk fish farms must also be removed as they simply follow that strand of logic.
I am aware of that. What I am trying to do is draw an analogy, albeit, in this case, it's more of the opposite of an analogy since I'm contrasting the two case studies. (I couldn't find a word for the opposite of an analogy even though I feel like it exists)
That's cool, I get it. I just didn't like that it was based off of a throw away comment. It in turned highlights that, instead of what I really said, thus hijacking my main point. I really have myself to blame for giving that ammo.
Considering some of the users (albeit not you) here keep repeating the same talking points over and over again, I have my doubts. (Also I like simple explanations.)
I appreciate that and wish not to further address of this because I have already had enough reminders, warning, post deleted, and post edited on this thread that I would like to keep my forum privileges. Just a dangerous road I do not want anyone to take it wrong. Moving on.
I disagree. Unintentional gameplay exploits tend to look stupid and wrong in any other game, the only reason we give Minecraft a pass on this is that its physics and lore are already stupid and wrong (floating islands, etc.)
My point with this was, if it was intentional, we would still be talking about this. Only in the matter of switching the words from unintentional to intentional and how and why they would do that on top of it. So whether it was intentional or unintentional, for reasons giving thus far, the people who are against it would still have the same issues. You'll see what I mean in a minute and will still call it broken.
I think I misstated my point and I don't blame you for reading me wrong, but what I was trying to convey was: stupid exploits that look dumb, break immersion and abuse limitations in the mechanics of the game shouldn't be kept in the game. That point is especially true if the exploit is unbalanced.
Two things:
1 - A redstone exploit like Piston Quasi-Connectivity isn't giving people resources, nor does it break the balance in any way besides adding a BUD switch which could enable certain farms. I don't think a BUD switch by itself is that harmful on its own, and we actually have an intentional one in the game now.
2 - There's actually a solid case to be made that weird redstone screw-ups like Quasi-Connectivity should be removed since they create strange exceptions in redstone mechanics that scare away people who are new to redstone. Granted, I think there are far fewer gains and far greater losses from removing QC compared to AFK Fish Farms, but I can see the argument to fix it as they did with the Bedrock Edition.
I have a love-hate relationships with buds. Back in the day they would ruin my builds an I would have to build around them. They also were not 100% reliable, so building with them was not an option for me. With observers and such, I dig it even though it is a little... for better a better word weird. However, it is reliable, and now more helpful with complex builds.
Okay, now you've stretched what I've said miles beyond its actual meaning. Just because a sandbox game has rules, does not mean that you are locked into constructing only what Mojang has dictated acceptable. It means that you can't build things that break the immersion or allow you to cheat the game's balance.
Point here wasn't directed by you. It was a statement made because it was meant as we would all be building cookie cutter designs and playing the same way. That's all. It wasn't stretching anything you said, again my fault because I did not proofread it before posting. It was supposed to be linked to the first paragraph. I started a new one sentence too early. More on that in a minute.
That's funny, I seem to remember fishg himself giving his own opinion on this situation...
What does fish have to do with this. All I said was I agreed with a single sentence. Not on a whole or even partly. At least you have valid issues and not made up scenarios. It is made to seem suddenly I agree with everything he has said concerning it being called an exploit?
But sure, AFK Fishing is definitely not an exploit by any means.
Even though it is wikipedia, I'll give you that and say normally I'd agree. A couple of things. It is a fantasy sandbox game with limited rules. These are set by Mojang (which we all know) and they dictate what is and isn't allowed right? They have already dictated that the feature stays by not "fixing" it and letting it go. They by all means will not go out of their way to fix it when they break it with new mechanics (proven by past updates that have). Bugs, exploits, glitches, all get reported via the bug report. AFK fishing comes back as "works as intended." So much like the BUD, not intended and obvious bug, made a feature because it is a result of their specific mechanics. So to be fair, exploit is a little much. We both know it started that way. That's not an argument.
I have no idea why you decided to inject these three sentences into your paragraph, considering this seems unrelated and isn't helping you explain to me why unintentional, immersion-breaking "not exploits" should be left in the game.
Because you break down my paragraphs into sections. Typing in paragraphs have relations, or highlights that further go with what is being said. I mean these farms and afk farms take away from the core mechanics of the game to where half of the entire original point is moot. People can argue all day long how it gives more options of how it has made the game better, because you don't have to spend half your (game) life underground. That it makes it less linear. That those that don't like to travel, can do everything they want in one spot. Etc. Etc. That multiple ways of getting things make it better. Things like that. Back on point. Every creation has changed how people get their stuff, how much they get of it, and when.
Then I appreciate that you at least attempt to argue from logic and not because of "ease", however I now have to ask why you do not use it, considering you have denied in the past that the farm is unbalanced. If the farm is balanced, then there is no harm in using it, and if it is not balanced, then why should people be allowed to cheat through survival with it?
Sure mate no problem. I have listed a few already, but I will cover them. I'm old school. I like doing things my way, and it is generally the long, hard way so I have a feel I have had valued play. The way I do play, by the time an afker builds their machine, I'm already enchant ready if not enchanting, and probably got diamond stuff on the way if not at least some done depending how focused the afker is. If I am the one who is lucky, I am probably done by the time they use it to have at least some viable drops. Either way, I will be done before they are. So even in a server, it doesn't affect me. Not to mention, if I had no idea what the hell I was doing on a server, getting ganked and tossed is going to be a way of life and really a right of passage. It's not going to be just afkers to worry about. (Though to me, being an avid pvper for over 15 years, it's everyone else I am worried about) Not to mention, it's not like I can tell a person has or hasn't generally. It's why I only go there for pvp, because the community on anything pvp, is toxic anymore. I digress. There are so many things here, short answer (because you like simple) is it does not fit my playstyle.
Second part, there is no balance in the sense anyone here is using. It is a fantasy sandbox with no A-Z direction. It would have to disrupt the path to travel A-Z with the letters in between being check points that could be skipped. Now I know somewhere someone is going to say, "But the dragon is the end because once you defeat him, credits roll." Sigh. It was a fun way to tell a story, and quite frankly defeating the dragon, is where the game starts for me. It's first or second session playtime for me. That's why it is important to me to try and get myself geared and pearls close to twelve in around the first, if not second session. Sometimes, I don't even bother going to the Nether until I have my pearls in hopes I have them by end session. To further argue the end, well being the end... when it was achievements... wasn't killing the wither after the dragon? As Notch put it, he felt he needed to put goals in the game to help those that needed goals. That's it. There is no official end to minecraft, and no official way to get there. So really, there is no balance in the first place. Also, with the loot tables in this game, they are not level based. Thus I could spawn in the world next to two chests that have two mending books, and guess what I just got "late game" books, for literally opening a box in the first two minutes of play. It's a game of chance. It's random.
I'm okay with "novel ways of using game mechanics" like Quasi-Connectivity (albeit again, it does scare away those who are new to redstone), what I am not okay with are things that break immersion and balance.
I know this wasn't to me, and I apologize not addressing it when it was... but something being immersive is individual player based. It's especially hard to have immersion in a fantasy setting as is. It has to be really good fantasy and relatable to have immersion. If it was left up to immersion for me to play Minecraft, there is no way I could play Minecraft lol. Example. for realism and immersive reason, I can see me in a real life scenario where I build a contraption at the river water to fish while I am sleeping, than to where I have no food, I'm on my horse and I have to make the decision let us both die, or kill the horse... and there is no meat to eat... just leather. Or Squid, man I love Calamari. Stackable items... floating blocks (which you've mentioned), the ability to carry 13 or 14 double chests worth of items, carrying a shulker box but not a chest, Everlast Trees not Evergreen because they didn't drop stuff to make podzol (Though It's been fixed now). Just examples. Immersion, not a strong point in this fantasy sandbox.
I get it man, it gets taken far. As far as immersion though, when it comes to the farm not so far fetched. As with what treasure you get from it is concerned, different views on what trumps what. I could care less about mending, or for that matter most of the possible enchants. The only thing of real importance to me would be the fish, and I can get that when I relax at the only building I make in Minecraft, and that is my log cabin in the Mega Taiga... or now with podzol being able to be gotten easier, my own custom land. Not to mention the lakes, rivers, oceans along the way. I suppose I could build a salmon farm, but not in my play style.
It is not like I don't see the points being made, it's just that a lot of it doesn't apply to this particular game or setting, and it doesn't fit personal playstyles.
Some auto farms I'm ok with, like iron golem farms, we need materials to be replaced in the event of an accident or if some other person deliberately ruined your builds and plus its not like iron is replaceable, once the iron is used up it's gone, and only mending can save your armour or swords from their eventual destruction which is already a way to preserve it, however items that are supposed to be rare and provide you big advantages like enchantments should require a considerable amount of user input, in my opinion and I don't think AFK fishing should be allowed, at minimum Mojang ought to allow an option to disable it in world settings, following the same line of reasoning, diamonds shouldn't be automatic or free, they should require either you mining for it or earning it through villager trades.
0.7% may not sound like much, but that means that across layers 5-50 there are an average of about 82 iron ore per chunk (in my own analysis I found an average of 111.5 across a 1000 chunk area which was all land; the drop-off above layer 50 shown on the chart is just due to rivers and surface dirt/grass displacing stone, otherwise, it would be nearly flat up to around layer 60). Even in 1.6.4, where ores were slightly less common, there are around 85-90 iron ore per chunk, and even if you only mine ores exposed in the walls of caves there are an average of about 7 ore per chunk, which is a lot more than it sounds since you can cover ground much faster than by mining:
This closely matches what I find while caving from the same area; normalized to 100 chunks, the area I explore per play session, you can expect to find an average of 716 iron ore out of a total of 3012 ores (plus additional ores indirectly exposed when mining another ore), about how many I mine in an average play session (many people find this to be unbelievable or assume that I spend all day playing to mine that much but I've mined ores at rates exceeding 1000 per hour - 1200 in a more extreme case which included 272 iron per hour). 100 chunks also isn't that much at all - that's less than the number of chunks that are are loaded on a view distance of 5 (11x11 or 121 chunks).
Incidentally, wonder how much iron I've mined in just one world, never mind all of my other worlds?
The blocks shown here include resources taken from chests (yes, I've really found over 4,000 iron ingots in dungeon and mineshaft chests, each of which I've found thousands of, and newer versions have way more structures to loot, including more items per chest (example), sometimes even with every single slot filled - ridiculous!); I do have a bit less iron in storage because I've used some to make anvils, but not much:
And, of course, the main reason people even need so much iron is hoppers for, you guessed it, automated farms! I also don't think you'd be actually building mansions out of iron blocks on a server where you could be griefed at any moment with no hope of rolling back or being compensated by the server owner. Otherwise, I can get all the resources needed for a maxed-out beacon (6 beacons on one pyramid) in 3 play sessions - indeed, there have been many threads complaining about how easy it is to obtain iron and/or resources in general:
Why is it, then, that whenever I go mining in a cave or a man-made mine, I emerge with stacks of iron, when I haven't even been mining for an hour? I can get access to the second-best tier in the game on my very first night. Not only is this ridiculous, it seriously cripples any kind of progression in survival mode.
Poll: Do you find that it is very easy to acquire lots of materials
No 19.6% Yes 80.4%
I'm not proud of having so much resources, because it doesn't feel like I actually worked for them. All I did was accidentally find a cave, and now I have more resources than I'll ever need.
I'm talking large enough to spend half an IRL day on, fuel the world's furnace demands with coal, and fill chests with iron BLOCKS just by spelunking alone
(many of the arguments in these threads still apply after 1.7, which mainly made individual cave systems smaller and less dense, but also more common so any given area has a higher chance of having caves)
Also, IMO Mending should be changed to work like renaming used to - before 1.8 all you had to do to get forever-lasting items was rename them for a few levels, but you did need to keep getting more resources to repair them on the anvil (plus iron for new anvils), and for a much higher cost which depended on the enchantments and durability (the ability to make and indefinitely use "god" items with every possible enchantment for the same cost as items with only Mending is another big issue; for example, even the Sharpness V, Knockback II, Unbreaking III diamond sword that I use is too expensive to be repaired with a new sword - I have to either repair it with a couple diamonds at a time for 35 levels or kill a couple hundred chickens to get the cost down enough to use a sacrifice sword - and forget about repairing it if you added Looting or Fire Aspect unless you dropped one of the other enchantments; a Sharpness V, Looting III, Unbreaking III sword costs 37 levels for a single diamond at a time).
There's also the fact that so-called "treasure" enchantments are anything but - I take that to mean they can ONLY be found in loot chests, much as I added my own enchantments, "Smelting" and "Vein Miner", which can only be found in this manner (this also further encourages exploration, which seems to be a big thing for Mojang). Though I allow Mending to be obtained by trading since isn't as OP as 1.9's version (it simply replaces renaming and trading is much less predictable, making it overall harder to get forever-lasting gear). Of course, there are no fishing farms, at least not ones that give you anything other than fish since I haven't done anything with it yet (I only fish to get the achievement, tame an ocelot or two, and unlock trades) - and if I did I'd definitely make sure it couldn't be exploited and probably not include such valuable items as enchanted books (I'm not even sure if the fishing mechanics in 1.6.4 allow for AFK fishing, everything seems to be for 1.7 and up, or nobody really bothered until then).
The point is without iron golems or zombies to drop iron ingots, iron is a temporary/finite resource within each game world. Once the iron ores are mined and used up, they're gone, and while you can move to other areas to find more iron to mine after exhausting local strip mines within a 10,000 block radius, the simple fact is there isn't an infinite supply of it in the form of iron ore in survival mode.
Not all Minecraft worlds are created equal.
Sure if you're playing on PC or bedrock edition then your world sizes can be 60 million X by 60 million Z blocks, which is a lot of blocks and resources.
But if you're stuck with the older console editions of Minecraft then your world sizes are going to be much smaller.
Iron tools and combat gears can be smelt to become an iron nugget but pretty much useless if you know what I mean.
I agree, because to get a decent amount of iron ingots just by smelting armor looted off zombies would take far too long.
You'd probably end up with more iron ingots just by killing zombies old style.
Wouldn't be such a useless thing if the cost of anvil repairs didn't keep increasing.
I almost never use the anvil outside of combining enchantments, as it's a rather lousy alternative to mending or crafting new gear.
I rather mine iron ore and smelt Gold Armors drops from Skeletons and zombies lol they are.. a slightly more useful than iron nuggets since you can use them to make Golden carrot and glistering watermelon.
for me, Iron is one of the most important things cause I'm building a city, (Iron blocks for creating golems to protect the city) really since I don't exploit stuff, so I mine really hard.
The point is without iron golems or zombies to drop iron ingots, iron is a temporary/finite resource within each game world. Once the iron ores are mined and used up, they're gone, and while you can move to other areas to find more iron to mine after exhausting local strip mines within a 10,000 block radius, the simple fact is there isn't an infinite supply of it in the form of iron ore in survival mode.
Not all Minecraft worlds are created equal.
Sure if you're playing on PC or bedrock edition then your world sizes can be 60 million X by 60 million Z blocks, which is a lot of blocks and resources.
But if you're stuck with the older console editions of Minecraft then your world sizes are going to be much smaller.
I've only explored around 88,000 chunks (about 4750x4750 blocks; the overall size is about 6500x6500 blocks and 109,000 chunks) in the world where I've collected over 65,000 iron blocks worth of iron from caving, which only exposes a fraction of all the ore - surely more than anybody has ever actually needed - and virtually all of that is sitting in a huge storage room along with literally millions of other resources - and the world still contains more than 7 million iron ore in those chunks (this means that I've mined about 7.7% of the ore that was originally present, about 86.5 per chunk; using the averages I found for a 1.8+ world there would be nearly 10 million to start out with, this world is also a bit lower than land-only chunks would suggest since part of it is ocean; of course, it is just as common below the seafloor as anywhere else and even the deeper oceans in 1.7+ only remove about half the space it generates in):
The fact is, many resources are far more common than most people seem to think - over a quarter-million diamond ore?! Even just the initial spawn area (625 chunks generated and 576 populated) has thousands of ores exposed in caves, including iron (I haven't done this on a 1.8+ world but the reduction in caves is just about offset by an increase in ores; since 1.13 mineshafts are also no longer rarer within 1280 blocks of the origin, making them more common than before 1.7 within 512 blocks, where spawn usually is):
For another good example, over on Reddit I see people getting excited over finding "super rare" fossils, which are actually the most common structure in the biomes they generate in - which I guess shows just how little actual mining/caving most people do (in TMCWv4, where I modded in fossils with the same frequency and spawn biomes as vanilla 1.10+, I found more fossils than any surface structure, even as I made structures like villages more common to offset a reduction in their spawn biomes so they were about as common overall as in vanilla 1.6.4).
Since so many people like AFK fish farms and would be unhappy to lose them, I am in favor of their continued existence.
On a side note, it amuses me when some folks who use them claim that they would never turn on cheats. In my eyes, afk fishing is just as much cheating as turning on Creative mode to get stuff they haven’t worked for. But I don’t care and think that people should do what makes the game enjoyable for them as long as they aren’t hurting anybody.
On some servers afk fishing is allowed, on others it is prohibited. Online players can choose what is right for them.
That's cool, I get it. I just didn't like that it was based off of a throw away comment. It in turned highlights that, instead of what I really said, thus hijacking my main point. I really have myself to blame for giving that ammo.
There's no point in us continuing this meta-conversation, so I'm just going to skip over these parts.
My point with this was, if it was intentional, we would still be talking about this. Only in the matter of switching the words from unintentional to intentional and how and why they would do that on top of it. So whether it was intentional or unintentional, for reasons giving thus far, the people who are against it would still have the same issues. You'll see what I mean in a minute and will still call it broken.
I don't think you can really say that we'd be talking about this if it was an unintentional feature. Of course, people talk about removing or nerfing things like the Elytra, but the thing about the AFK Fish Farm is that it makes so little sense lore, immersion, and balance-wise that you would never add it intentionally by any means.
I have a love-hate relationships with buds. Back in the day they would ruin my builds an I would have to build around them.
They also were not 100% reliable, so building with them was not an option for me. With observers and such, I dig it even though it is a little... for better a better word weird. However, it is reliable, and now more helpful with complex builds.
I think you went on a tangent here with BUDs in general when I was talking about Piston Quasi-Connectivity which is occasionally used to make BUDs and how it can make redstone construction unnecessarily complicated.
What does fish have to do with this....
The fact that it was Fishg who you agreed with on the unintentional/intentional thing is irrelevant. What is important was that he had a definition (even if it was from Wikipedia) for "exploit" and your side has not provided one.
Because you break down my paragraphs into sections.
Paragraphs which don't need to be so long when a short, simple response devoid of offtopic talking points will convey a point far easier.
Typing in paragraphs have relations, or highlights that further go with what is being said. I mean these farms and afk farms take away from the core mechanics of the game to where half of the entire original point is moot. People can argue all day long how it gives more options of how ithas made the game better, because you don't have to spend half your (game) life underground. That it makes it less linear. That those that don't like to travel, can do everything they want in one spot. Etc. Etc. That multiple ways of getting things make it better. Things like that. Back on point. Every creation has changed how people get their stuff, how much they get of it, and when.
I get your point here about the "benefits" of being able to play the game in the different ways created by farming, and there's a conversation to be had there, but this has nothing to do with unintentional features that break immersion. (I don't intend on carrying this part of the conversation on for much longer, but I will say that while you may find staying in one place "better", on the other hand, I would say anything that encourages the player to stay in one place detracts from the benefits of exploration.)
Sure mate no problem. I have listed a few already, but I will cover them. I'm old school. I like doing things my way, and it is generally the long, hard way so I have a feel I have had valued play...
I've snipped this since while I read the rest of the paragraph, I don't think it's worth going into all of it since it's more of a self-anecdote.
I suppose this is a valid reason since fun is somewhat objective and I can't really critique someone for wanting to play the game with extra self-made challenges.
(You mention something about PVP in this paragraph. I don't think that's the only form of competition, I think that even in a non-PVP setting, people shouldn't be able to get late-game stuff through exploits and cheats. It breaks the value of items on the server like enchanted books when everybody has a couple hundred while non-AFK Fishers have 3 or 4. Sure, it might not matter on a server where people seldom interact, but on a server where people frequently interact, AFK Fish Farms affect everybody in some way.)
Second part, there is no balance in the sense anyonehere is using. It is a fantasy sandbox with no A-Z direction. It would have to disrupt the path to travel A-Z with the letters in between being check points that could be skipped. Now I know somewhere someone is going to say, "But the dragon is the end because once you defeat him, credits roll." Sigh. It was a fun way to tell a story, and quite frankly defeating the dragon, is where the game starts for me.
Okay, no. There is clearly an A-Z direction. There are tiers of tools, dimensions gated behind items, etc. The game has progression and while that progression can be broken by server economies and such, you still need to get items before you can get better items in some fashion.
Minecraft is not just a sandbox, it's a game with sandbox elements, some of which are gated behind playing the game itself. Games have balance and progression.
It's first or second session playtime for me. That's why it is important to me to try and get myself geared and pearls close to twelve in around the first, if not second session. Sometimes, I don't even bother going to the Nether until I have my pearls in hopes I have them by end session.
I always hear these stories about people beating the game in three seconds and that the game is "too easy", meanwhile I'm building a house in my first play session and I'll probably hit the Nether by the second play session.
Maybe I'm just an idiot at PVP (Gonna be honest, I think I was better in 1.8. I still think 1.8 isn't balanced.) but I really don't understand how people do this. Endermen are hard to kill and hard to find in my experience and sometimes they don't even drop a pearl.
I'm not sure why you chose to go after The End when I never even said anything about the End.
So really, there is no balance in the first place.
Hold on, no balance? Really?
Also, with the loot tables in this game, they are not level based. Thus I could spawn in the world next to two chests that have two mending books, and guess what I just got "late game" books, for literally opening a box in the first two minutes of play. It's a game of chance. It's random.
Okay sure, random stuff exists and sometimes it gives people an unfair advantage over other people's worlds, but that doesn't entirely negate progression. Mending tools can still be lost or destroyed through careless play. Diamond tools without Mending still decay after enough use.
You go into two paragraphs about immersion and I don't have time to go through these, but...
It's especially hard to have immersion in a fantasy setting as is.
You're confusing immersion with realism. Fantasy and Realism are related to the setting as you mention. Immersion simply means that the player feels less like they're playing a game with code and more like they're exploring and living in a different world.
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
I never disagreed with that, I'm just saying the lower tier items should be left as they are.
Obviously AFK fishing breaks the game and must be patched, or at the very least there ought to be a world option to disable it because getting enchantment books with no effort or player input is just stupid, I do not have an issue with enchantments like mending or infinity books coming from fishing, but I do have an issue with automating them because then their rarity means nothing in that case.
However, if people want to build mob grinders, let them, it doesn't hurt anybody else nor break the game.
Mob spawners are ok, if Mojang had an issue with people getting iron ingots off zombie drops then they wouldn't have made zombies able to drop that sort of stuff to begin with, it's part of the game and should remain as is, does not matter if it is from mob spawners or general overworld mob spawn.
I agree with you, I just killed the ender dragon and I got 63XP level, when I tried enchanting my books, I only get bad enchantments.
It is obvious that AFK fishing put players into effortless gameplay but as I said to my other posts, It's up to you if you want to play effortlessly, and it is up to the Server staff to set rules. yet won't that make survival mode seems... pointless?, of course, It will.
Now' I changed my mind trice, xD, Mojang should remove this, this is their job, if I was them, I won't let this to stay and be used by players because as you said, This is not the way how you play the game.
There's no point in us continuing this meta-conversation, so I'm just going to skip over these parts.
I agree so quickly and skipping things, unless anyone wants to debate me specifically on the things I've said, they can tag me and be like, "This... what?"
I don't think you can really say that we'd be talking about this if it was an unintentional feature. Of course, people talk about removing or nerfing things like the Elytra, but the thing about the AFK Fish Farm is that it makes so little sense lore, immersion, and balance-wise that you would never add it intentionally by any means.
No. If it was intentional, people would still have an issue and want it removed.
I think you went on a tangent here with BUDs in general when I was talking about Piston Quasi-Connectivity which is occasionally used to make BUDs and how it can make redstone construction unnecessarily complicated.
I did. I typed the first sentence. That was all that was plan as a response, but I just can't stop writing sometimes.
The fact that it was Fishg who you agreed with on the unintentional/intentional thing is irrelevant. What is important was that he had a definition (even if it was from Wikipedia) for "exploit" and your side has not provided one.
I did. Just as Mojang's definition. Which is what counts.
Paragraphs which don't need to be so long when a short, simple response devoid of offtopic talking points will convey a point far easier.
Yes & No. It's generally connected, you're just not seeing it from my point of view. That's why these things are difficult to debate.
I get your point here about the "benefits" of being able to play the game in the different ways created by farming, and there's a conversation to be had there, but this has nothing to do with unintentional features that break immersion. (I don't intend on carrying this part of the conversation on for much longer, but I will say that while you may find staying in one place "better", on the other hand, I would say anything that encourages the player to stay in one place detracts from the benefits of exploration.)
And that is your opinion, with your own experience.
(You mention something about PVP in this paragraph. I don't think that's the only form of competition, I think that even in a non-PVP setting, people shouldn't be able to get late-game stuff through exploits and cheats. It breaks the value of items on the server like enchanted books when everybody has a couple hundred while non-AFK Fishers have 3 or 4. Sure, it might not matter on a server where people seldom interact, but on a server where people frequently interact, AFK Fish Farms affect everybody in some way.)
First part was interesting. Rest is of opinion, and one's I've covered. Also we shouldn't focus here, it is vanilla we are supposed to be talking about. It was my fault because people were also talking about it earlier and I continued.
Okay, no. There is clearly an A-Z direction. There are tiers of tools, dimensions gated behind items, etc. The game has progression and while that progression can be broken by server economies and such, you still need to get items before you can get better items in some fashion.
If you mine it yourself, yes tools have progression. Everything has alternate means.
Minecraft is not just a sandbox, it's a game with sandbox elements, some of which are gated behind playing the game itself. Games have balance and progression.
Well of course it has sandbox elements, it's a sandbox game I know what you meant.
I always hear these stories about people beating the game in three seconds and that the game is "too easy", meanwhile I'm building a house in my first play session and I'll probably hit the Nether by the second play session.
"My opinion," it's not to easy. It is what it is. For difficult, that's where I play hardcore and pvp servers. The same people who whined about too easy, complained about the phantom.
:
Maybe I'm just an idiot at PVP (Gonna be honest, I think I was better in 1.8. I still think 1.8 isn't balanced.) but I really don't understand how people do this. Endermen are hard to kill and hard to find in my experience and sometimes they don't even drop a pearl.
It's cool. PVP is not meant for everyone. For Endermen. I carry a clock on me. At night I go out to the most clear areas. While I am rushing for the diamonds, and other materials, I generally have the cow farm going up top with sugarcane. I feed them when I go out, and when I go back in. It takes a few days, (game time) but you end up with enough leather for your shelves to setup around the enchantment table that you've already thrown down. By mining everything, killing everything, and/or finding a spawner (if you get lucky, you do NOT have to build an decked out grinder this early, small kill box right there at the spawner) and you should have well over 30 levels. Throw in an iron sword and usually in five enchants you can get looting or III. Makes it a lot quicker. Endershelf or stand in water if you need the help to kill them. Not relevant, but tips. No need to use any of it.
I'm not sure why you chose to go after The End when I never even said anything about the End.
Depends on which mention, but keeping it simple here.
Hold on, no balance? Really?
Not really no. It kind of coincides with the other random stuff in that post.
Okay sure, random stuff exists and sometimes it gives people an unfair advantage over other people's worlds, but that doesn't entirely negate progression. Mending tools can still be lost or destroyed through careless play. Diamond tools without Mending still decay after enough use.
Yes? And? lol
You go into two paragraphs about immersion and I don't have time to go through these, but...
You're confusing immersion with realism. Fantasy and Realism are related to the setting as you mention. Immersion simply means that the player feels less like they're playing a game with code and more like they're exploring and living in a different world.
Well yes, none of it exclusive.Fantasy, realism, and immersion can all be present. But immersion is the engagement in which you have with a thing or setting. Imagine this. I was playing Minecraft, I got my first batch of shulker shells and made boxes. I go to put down my shulkers to replace my chests and it hits me, "Why can I not pick up my chest with stuff in it? That is immersion breaking. It took me out of the game and into common thought. Somehow I never questioned that until that moment. When I watch a Medical show, and they are clearly not doing something or misrepresenting something, I turn to the wife (becuse we both know better) and I'm like, surely can't they get the continuity right? That broke my immersion. Other people might not have that same problem with those specific things. The things I listed before are things that just took me out of the game like, really? It's perceptive of the individual what they immerse into. Minecraft does not claim to have an immersive experience.
With this I close this particular response to anyone reading. If someone is playing Vanilla MC, what does their experience and what they do matter so much, that you want to change it when their decision is not forced on anyone else? How is it someone that AFK fishes, breaks your gameplay, your map? They are the ones that put that on the line and have to deal with it along with morally. Just like anyone that uses the newly buffed Iron farms that came out with the update today. Not a fan. Building one would break my game play, but anyone else using it, let them. No effect.
@Agtrigormortis
Take it easy mate. I saw the opportunity to make a pun with Irony. You have the right to respond and make examples, but the thread was becoming strictly about Iron farms there for awhile. Trying to get it back on point is all. You talk to TMC about anything mine related and statistics, it's not going to end well anyway. He knows his stuff because it is what he does. He likes evidence.
I would love to have you show me where Mojang has specifically said this, because... I am honestly not aware of it. If it is the case, they better fix a lot of things because of their own rule obviously. I can go to a town, and get mending books from a trader without ever punching a single piece of wood, little alone never getting diamonds. Besides, doesn't that mean if I find them in the first 10 minutes and build a diamond sword and/or pick, I should have access to mending?
Did you just say afk fish farms cause lag, and yet talk about it is ok using iron farms and grinders, along with putting redstone up to light up your arena idea?
I would love to have you show me where Mojang has specifically said this, because... I am honestly not aware of it. If it is the case, they better fix a lot of things because of their own rule obviously. I can go to a town, and get mending books from a trader without ever punching a single piece of wood, little alone never getting diamonds. Besides, doesn't that mean if I find them in the first 10 minutes and build a diamond sword and/or pick, I should have access to mending?
Mojang never said this, though if you want, I would probably dm a bedrock dev I know on discord and ask. It's common knowledge that Minecraft has a progression system. You start with wood tools and no armor, then to stone tools and maybe leather armor, then to iron tools and armor, then to diamond tools and armor, and then to enchanted diamond tools and armor. If enchanted books are meant to be super easy to get by Mojang, then why does the enchanting table require a diamond, or the anvil so much iron? I've rarely seen people with enchanted iron or below items because enchants come after diamond.
You make mending books seem as if they are as easy to get as wood. First, you need to be lucky to find a village. Villages are rare finds. Then you need to hope that villager has a mending book, which is only 2.7% of all librarians. Last, you need to earn enough emeralds to get the mending book from the villager, so I guess you hope there's some ripoff deal from the farmer where you can just steal their crops and sell it to them for currency.
One of the products of fishing are Enchanted Books, which include Mending. That is a great part of the problem: AFK Fishing makes what was intended to be a rare enchantment very common.
Suggestions:
New Death Animations. "Mr Amppl50, I don't feel so good" -fishg
Lead Ore
Wind revamp and hot air balloons.
What makes the player to build AFK fishing is simply because they are greedy for loots and rushers.
I don't get why staff bans you from them since Players has talents to build one, is it op? I mean I was in a survival server before, Bukkit, and the installed plugins that are able to bypass the enchantment caps.
If it's Single-player, I rather play the game legit instead of exploiting bugs and something else.
why? because where is fun?
in my opinion, Beginners always Exploit stuff like they just don't care but when times goes on, they will regret what have they done.
I kinda did something like these when I was 14 back in 1.8.9 update, I just don't care.
Support, AFK Fishing isn't just broken, it's stupid broken.
Regardless of whether or not you enjoy the benefit of AFK fishing, you have to realize one thing: it is not fun. The only reason people like AFK fishing isn't because it's engaging or there's something satisfying about it. It's the fact that you can get item, rare ones even, at the cost of virtually nothing. Good game design is when Player enjoyed getting engaged in the game they're playing. The rewards shouldn't be the only thing that keeps the player engaged, but also the journey.
It may be appropriate to refer to some form of "fishing game/ game that has fishing in it" where the fishing was actually "fun". For the life of me, I can't think of anything. What would "fun" fishing look like? My idea of "real life fishing" is going to the local market with my debit card and bringing home something already cleaned and ready to prepare for eating.
I feel like we have all exhausted our respective points here, but I'll drop one final argument for removing afk fish farms- what if there was an afk diamond farm? Should Mojang remove that? If you find yourself answering yes, Mojang should remove afk diamond farms, then afk fish farms must also be removed as they simply follow that strand of logic.
I don't know what broke the quote but I am not going back to fix it... hope you can read it clearly.
@Romaq - Thanx for the laugh.
@fishg, You're really stretching it and grasping.
Do you have any idea of how common iron is?
https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/File:PercentOfOreByHeight.png
0.7% may not sound like much, but that means that across layers 5-50 there are an average of about 82 iron ore per chunk (in my own analysis I found an average of 111.5 across a 1000 chunk area which was all land; the drop-off above layer 50 shown on the chart is just due to rivers and surface dirt/grass displacing stone, otherwise, it would be nearly flat up to around layer 60). Even in 1.6.4, where ores were slightly less common, there are around 85-90 iron ore per chunk, and even if you only mine ores exposed in the walls of caves there are an average of about 7 ore per chunk, which is a lot more than it sounds since you can cover ground much faster than by mining:
How many ores do caves expose?
This closely matches what I find while caving from the same area; normalized to 100 chunks, the area I explore per play session, you can expect to find an average of 716 iron ore out of a total of 3012 ores (plus additional ores indirectly exposed when mining another ore), about how many I mine in an average play session (many people find this to be unbelievable or assume that I spend all day playing to mine that much but I've mined ores at rates exceeding 1000 per hour - 1200 in a more extreme case which included 272 iron per hour). 100 chunks also isn't that much at all - that's less than the number of chunks that are are loaded on a view distance of 5 (11x11 or 121 chunks).
Incidentally, wonder how much iron I've mined in just one world, never mind all of my other worlds?
The blocks shown here include resources taken from chests (yes, I've really found over 4,000 iron ingots in dungeon and mineshaft chests, each of which I've found thousands of, and newer versions have way more structures to loot, including more items per chest (example), sometimes even with every single slot filled - ridiculous!); I do have a bit less iron in storage because I've used some to make anvils, but not much:
And, of course, the main reason people even need so much iron is hoppers for, you guessed it, automated farms! I also don't think you'd be actually building mansions out of iron blocks on a server where you could be griefed at any moment with no hope of rolling back or being compensated by the server owner. Otherwise, I can get all the resources needed for a maxed-out beacon (6 beacons on one pyramid) in 3 play sessions - indeed, there have been many threads complaining about how easy it is to obtain iron and/or resources in general:
Too many caves! Game is too easy
Minecraft 1.0 Cave Frequency
(many of the arguments in these threads still apply after 1.7, which mainly made individual cave systems smaller and less dense, but also more common so any given area has a higher chance of having caves)
Also, IMO Mending should be changed to work like renaming used to - before 1.8 all you had to do to get forever-lasting items was rename them for a few levels, but you did need to keep getting more resources to repair them on the anvil (plus iron for new anvils), and for a much higher cost which depended on the enchantments and durability (the ability to make and indefinitely use "god" items with every possible enchantment for the same cost as items with only Mending is another big issue; for example, even the Sharpness V, Knockback II, Unbreaking III diamond sword that I use is too expensive to be repaired with a new sword - I have to either repair it with a couple diamonds at a time for 35 levels or kill a couple hundred chickens to get the cost down enough to use a sacrifice sword - and forget about repairing it if you added Looting or Fire Aspect unless you dropped one of the other enchantments; a Sharpness V, Looting III, Unbreaking III sword costs 37 levels for a single diamond at a time).
There's also the fact that so-called "treasure" enchantments are anything but - I take that to mean they can ONLY be found in loot chests, much as I added my own enchantments, "Smelting" and "Vein Miner", which can only be found in this manner (this also further encourages exploration, which seems to be a big thing for Mojang). Though I allow Mending to be obtained by trading since isn't as OP as 1.9's version (it simply replaces renaming and trading is much less predictable, making it overall harder to get forever-lasting gear). Of course, there are no fishing farms, at least not ones that give you anything other than fish since I haven't done anything with it yet (I only fish to get the achievement, tame an ocelot or two, and unlock trades) - and if I did I'd definitely make sure it couldn't be exploited and probably not include such valuable items as enchanted books (I'm not even sure if the fishing mechanics in 1.6.4 allow for AFK fishing, everything seems to be for 1.7 and up, or nobody really bothered until then).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Iron tools and combat gears can be smelt to become an iron nugget but pretty much useless if you know what I mean.
I rather mine iron ore and smelt Gold Armors drops from Skeletons and zombies lol they are.. a slightly more useful than iron nuggets since you can use them to make Golden carrot and glistering watermelon.
for me, Iron is one of the most important things cause I'm building a city, (Iron blocks for creating golems to protect the city) really since I don't exploit stuff, so I mine really hard.
I've only explored around 88,000 chunks (about 4750x4750 blocks; the overall size is about 6500x6500 blocks and 109,000 chunks) in the world where I've collected over 65,000 iron blocks worth of iron from caving, which only exposes a fraction of all the ore - surely more than anybody has ever actually needed - and virtually all of that is sitting in a huge storage room along with literally millions of other resources - and the world still contains more than 7 million iron ore in those chunks (this means that I've mined about 7.7% of the ore that was originally present, about 86.5 per chunk; using the averages I found for a 1.8+ world there would be nearly 10 million to start out with, this world is also a bit lower than land-only chunks would suggest since part of it is ocean; of course, it is just as common below the seafloor as anywhere else and even the deeper oceans in 1.7+ only remove about half the space it generates in):
The fact is, many resources are far more common than most people seem to think - over a quarter-million diamond ore?! Even just the initial spawn area (625 chunks generated and 576 populated) has thousands of ores exposed in caves, including iron (I haven't done this on a 1.8+ world but the reduction in caves is just about offset by an increase in ores; since 1.13 mineshafts are also no longer rarer within 1280 blocks of the origin, making them more common than before 1.7 within 512 blocks, where spawn usually is):
For another good example, over on Reddit I see people getting excited over finding "super rare" fossils, which are actually the most common structure in the biomes they generate in - which I guess shows just how little actual mining/caving most people do (in TMCWv4, where I modded in fossils with the same frequency and spawn biomes as vanilla 1.10+, I found more fossils than any surface structure, even as I made structures like villages more common to offset a reduction in their spawn biomes so they were about as common overall as in vanilla 1.6.4).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Aren't we off topic here?
People who do not want to put in the effort complaining about people that aren't putting in the effort. IRONy.
Back to topic! *woosh*
Since so many people like AFK fish farms and would be unhappy to lose them, I am in favor of their continued existence.
On a side note, it amuses me when some folks who use them claim that they would never turn on cheats. In my eyes, afk fishing is just as much cheating as turning on Creative mode to get stuff they haven’t worked for. But I don’t care and think that people should do what makes the game enjoyable for them as long as they aren’t hurting anybody.
On some servers afk fishing is allowed, on others it is prohibited. Online players can choose what is right for them.
There's no point in us continuing this meta-conversation, so I'm just going to skip over these parts.
I don't think you can really say that we'd be talking about this if it was an unintentional feature. Of course, people talk about removing or nerfing things like the Elytra, but the thing about the AFK Fish Farm is that it makes so little sense lore, immersion, and balance-wise that you would never add it intentionally by any means.
I think you went on a tangent here with BUDs in general when I was talking about Piston Quasi-Connectivity which is occasionally used to make BUDs and how it can make redstone construction unnecessarily complicated.
The fact that it was Fishg who you agreed with on the unintentional/intentional thing is irrelevant. What is important was that he had a definition (even if it was from Wikipedia) for "exploit" and your side has not provided one.
Paragraphs which don't need to be so long when a short, simple response devoid of offtopic talking points will convey a point far easier.
I get your point here about the "benefits" of being able to play the game in the different ways created by farming, and there's a conversation to be had there, but this has nothing to do with unintentional features that break immersion. (I don't intend on carrying this part of the conversation on for much longer, but I will say that while you may find staying in one place "better", on the other hand, I would say anything that encourages the player to stay in one place detracts from the benefits of exploration.)
I've snipped this since while I read the rest of the paragraph, I don't think it's worth going into all of it since it's more of a self-anecdote.
I suppose this is a valid reason since fun is somewhat objective and I can't really critique someone for wanting to play the game with extra self-made challenges.
(You mention something about PVP in this paragraph. I don't think that's the only form of competition, I think that even in a non-PVP setting, people shouldn't be able to get late-game stuff through exploits and cheats. It breaks the value of items on the server like enchanted books when everybody has a couple hundred while non-AFK Fishers have 3 or 4. Sure, it might not matter on a server where people seldom interact, but on a server where people frequently interact, AFK Fish Farms affect everybody in some way.)
Okay, no. There is clearly an A-Z direction. There are tiers of tools, dimensions gated behind items, etc. The game has progression and while that progression can be broken by server economies and such, you still need to get items before you can get better items in some fashion.
Minecraft is not just a sandbox, it's a game with sandbox elements, some of which are gated behind playing the game itself. Games have balance and progression.
I always hear these stories about people beating the game in three seconds and that the game is "too easy", meanwhile I'm building a house in my first play session and I'll probably hit the Nether by the second play session.
Maybe I'm just an idiot at PVP (Gonna be honest, I think I was better in 1.8. I still think 1.8 isn't balanced.) but I really don't understand how people do this. Endermen are hard to kill and hard to find in my experience and sometimes they don't even drop a pearl.
I'm not sure why you chose to go after The End when I never even said anything about the End.
Hold on, no balance? Really?
Okay sure, random stuff exists and sometimes it gives people an unfair advantage over other people's worlds, but that doesn't entirely negate progression. Mending tools can still be lost or destroyed through careless play. Diamond tools without Mending still decay after enough use.
You go into two paragraphs about immersion and I don't have time to go through these, but...
You're confusing immersion with realism. Fantasy and Realism are related to the setting as you mention. Immersion simply means that the player feels less like they're playing a game with code and more like they're exploring and living in a different world.
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
And yet enchanted books are meant to be rare. They are the next step from the diamond tier.
I agree with you, I just killed the ender dragon and I got 63XP level, when I tried enchanting my books, I only get bad enchantments.
It is obvious that AFK fishing put players into effortless gameplay but as I said to my other posts, It's up to you if you want to play effortlessly, and it is up to the Server staff to set rules. yet won't that make survival mode seems... pointless?, of course, It will.
Now' I changed my mind trice, xD, Mojang should remove this, this is their job, if I was them, I won't let this to stay and be used by players because as you said, This is not the way how you play the game.
@Agtrigormortis
Take it easy mate. I saw the opportunity to make a pun with Irony. You have the right to respond and make examples, but the thread was becoming strictly about Iron farms there for awhile. Trying to get it back on point is all. You talk to TMC about anything mine related and statistics, it's not going to end well anyway. He knows his stuff because it is what he does. He likes evidence.
@fishg
I would love to have you show me where Mojang has specifically said this, because... I am honestly not aware of it. If it is the case, they better fix a lot of things because of their own rule obviously. I can go to a town, and get mending books from a trader without ever punching a single piece of wood, little alone never getting diamonds. Besides, doesn't that mean if I find them in the first 10 minutes and build a diamond sword and/or pick, I should have access to mending?
@Agtrigormortis
Did you just say afk fish farms cause lag, and yet talk about it is ok using iron farms and grinders, along with putting redstone up to light up your arena idea?
Mojang never said this, though if you want, I would probably dm a bedrock dev I know on discord and ask. It's common knowledge that Minecraft has a progression system. You start with wood tools and no armor, then to stone tools and maybe leather armor, then to iron tools and armor, then to diamond tools and armor, and then to enchanted diamond tools and armor. If enchanted books are meant to be super easy to get by Mojang, then why does the enchanting table require a diamond, or the anvil so much iron? I've rarely seen people with enchanted iron or below items because enchants come after diamond.
You make mending books seem as if they are as easy to get as wood. First, you need to be lucky to find a village. Villages are rare finds. Then you need to hope that villager has a mending book, which is only 2.7% of all librarians. Last, you need to earn enough emeralds to get the mending book from the villager, so I guess you hope there's some ripoff deal from the farmer where you can just steal their crops and sell it to them for currency.