Armored horses are fun. At least they can be. I used to charge mobs, but quickly realized there really was no real purpose to have armored horses, at least not for melee charges.
You need to be between 0 and 1 block away from a mob to even have a chance to hit them, and even then it was so close the mob tended to vanish in front of the horse, so you missed a lot.
I propose 2 new weapons.
-1. A lance. Used specifically for horse combat, has a range of 2 to 3 blocks as opposed to 0 to 1block (that way you can still see the mob you are trying to hit), and for balancing, holding the "jump" key/button when a lance is equipped replaces jump with "power". The longer you hold it, the stronger the hit. Attack upon release of "power" key/button. Can only be used on horseback. Effective against Ravagers (Pillager beast).
-2. A spear. Used to counter lances. Range of 2 to 3 blocks, replaces "jump" with "brace". The longer you hold it, the stronger you "brace". A full brace will harm the horseman and you take half the damage you normally would.
The spear can be used on foot against regular mobs. When equipped you can't sprint, and you can't jump. Great against Zombies, Husks, players on horseback, Vindicators. Ok against melee Drowned, and Zombie Pigmen (their swarm mechanic will quickly overrun you). Not recommended against creepers(knockback needed). Bad against Skeletons, Trident Drowned, Pillagers, and Evokers. It is basically suicide as they will always out maneuver and out damage you.
Regular attack will be slower than a sword, but more powerful. Weapon/item slot switching time will be increased when switching to or from a spear for balancing.
I have the crafting recipes for both of these, however I am on mobile so I have no way to share them. That I know of anyway.
I've had an idea for a spear for a while now too, but I'm think your idea is, in a word, too complex. There are too many different mechanics and similar items. But the thing I agree on is that we need a dedicated weapon for horses.
-1. A lance. Used specifically for horse combat, has a range of 2 to 3 blocks as opposed to 0 to 1block (that way you can still see the mob you are trying to hit), and for balancing, holding the "jump" key/button when a lance is equipped replaces jump with "power". The longer you hold it, the stronger the hit. Attack upon release of "power" key/button. Can only be used on horseback. Effective against Ravagers (Pillager beast).
I would not mess with the movement controls. There's no real reason holding a lance would prevent jumping. I would keep everything bound to the mouse buttons.
-2. A spear. Used to counter lances. Range of 2 to 3 blocks, replaces "jump" with "brace". The longer you hold it, the stronger you "brace". A full brace will harm the horseman and you take half the damage you normally would.
The same problem here - preventing jumping really hurts movement, and that's important in combat. Plus, having a weapon whose main purpose is basically to counter other players using a certain weapon set makes it almost a dud item.
The spear can be used on foot against regular mobs. When equipped you can't sprint, and you can't jump. Great against Zombies, Husks, players on horseback, Vindicators.
You sure about that? You mention the attack is slower than a sword, well, in that case it's basically an axe used at a further range, which would make axes useless if not for the inhibited movement controls, which makes spears useless instead, since all these mobs can close the distance to you if you try to wait for them to recover if you use an axe, and 2-3 blocks is not much extra. Vindicators are even faster.
Ok against melee Drowned, and Zombie Pigmen (their swarm mechanic will quickly overrun you). Not recommended against creepers(knockback needed). Bad against Skeletons, Trident Drowned, Pillagers, and Evokers. It is basically suicide as they will always out maneuver and out damage you.
Which makes the spear a worse weapon to have on you than either the axe or the sword, and since players won't want to waste too much of their hotbar on weapons, that makes them quite a dud.
Regular attack will be slower than a sword, but more powerful. Weapon/item slot switching time will be increased when switching to or from a spear for balancing.
So not only will you want to switch from the spear to another weapon when encountering mobs against which using it would be "suicide", the game will hinder you doing so. Sorry, that's not much fun.
I have the crafting recipes for both of these, however I am on mobile so I have no way to share them. That I know of anyway.
I'll suggest my own.
I really like the idea in concept, but the execution is lackluster. My suggestion would be too focus on one weapon, have it have simple controls, but be unique and especially useful for horseback and elytra. And what the heck, for against foes on horseback too.
I'd combine the two ideas of the lance and spear, so that the less common use against foes on horseback can be included without making the weapon used for it a dud. Just call it the "spear", since lances are just a type of spear. We'll need to make it sufficiently different from the sword and axe so it doesn't replace either one. We'll also either need to make the recovery fast or do something else, otherwise it will become too unwieldy on horseback or when flying. The thing is, at the speeds that people travel at on horseback or with elytra, you'd almost need to be able to spam-click to have any hope of correcting yourself if you miss. Or you'd need to stop, which is impossible with elytra and a bit stupid with horses, since that defeats the purpose of riding them.
So let's do something else instead. I will keep the base attack damage by attacking, but I will re-balance it based on what comes next. I don't think any type of loading or drawing should be used for spears - it made sense for the bow and crossbow, but there's no reason holding a spear longer would make it do more damage. My idea is to instead have two "modes", which is just a fancy way of saying how you hold the spear, namely vertically (pointing skywards, no danger or use to anybody) and horizontally, pointing at wherever your crosshairs are pointing aka. where you look. You switch between them by right-clicking. No loading time, so drawing back, just "click" and the spear is pointing in a different direction - which you can see from how it's held in you hand.
The spear would be the weapon equivalent of the shield, doing stuff wherever it's pointed, though in contrast to the shield it would have far less wide and tall a range (just limited to the area around the crosshairs), and could be pointed upwards if you look up. Anything that moves into the point of the spear gets damaged and knocked back, but only if the person holding the spear is moving. The amount of damage is based on the type of spear (wooden through diamond) and the speed at which the person is moving. So if you are riding a horse or flying when the spear touches something you do much more damage and knockback than if you were just sprinting, and you do more damage if you sprint than if you walk, and none if you stand still.
The fact the spear does damage by you moving is the reason for the modes - so you don't accidentally impale your pets or your friends. But I did say I'd keep the base damage, and I will. You can attack normally with a spear, but only when held horizontally, and only at a range of three blocks. This means you can't accidentally hit your horse if on horseback, and means it is a viable way of fighting against an opponent on horseback, since you get extra range. I would make spears do half a heart less damage than swords of equal value (1,5, 2, 2.5, 3 hearts), but increase their recovery speed to 0.5, which means their attack speed would be 1/0.5 = 2 and their DPS 2 * (3, 4, 5, 6) = (6, 8, 10, 12), very close to that of swords. But since each hit is less damaging and you need to be at a certain range for the damage to count, swords are still the better choice when fighting against opponents on foot - a swordman can bridge the distance and chop you up.
If you hit something that's within two blocks range of you, you switch from horizonal to vertical (this is the indicator the opponent is too close) and any hit you land does as much damage as your fist, but won't remove durability from the spear.
The idea of a weapon that makes mounted combat desirable under some conditions is a good one.
[The pike/braced spear less so as these were historically ineffective except in formation; the effectiveness of the phalanx/pike square was dependant on the opponent bot being able to 'go around'.]
Bravo, Mallon on the rework.
I would suggest, however, having the tip of an unmoving spear do minor damage (as fist) and block movement along the shaft. [Bears and boars were notoriously able to 'walk up' spear shafts to attack the weilder, but this does not seem suited to MC combat.]
This level of damage would make it necessary to be cautious moving about with a spear 'at point', but is low enough actually killing friendlies should be rare.
I do not understabd from your post how you intend to adjust damage with the speed of the attacker: my ideas are below:
[Using closing speed rather than the movement speed of the attacker would be more realistic, but might be too computationally expensive.]
Player walking speed is 4.3 blocks per second
Player sprint speed is 5.6 BPS
Minimum horse is ~4.8 BPS
Average horse is ~9 BPS
Maximum horse is ~14.5 BPS [All values assume no status effects.]
Given the chunkiness of the damage (3, 4, 5, or 6 points per hit – depending on material) there isn't a lot of room to scale damage with speed.
One solution would be to have the lesser tiers (wood and stone) 'top out'. [Extending this to iron lances might also create a place for gold lances, if these – while doing the same base damage as wooden ones – the performance of gold lances continued to improve.]
Player walking speed or below would offer a simple 1 damage improvement (to 2 ) over the unmoving (fist equivalent) spear
Up to and including player sprint speed would add another damage point (to 3 the maximum for a wooden spear)
Up to, but NOT including average horse speed (9 BPS), another (to 4 the maximum for a stone spear) [Gold would do 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
From 9-12 BPS (inclusive) would do 5 damage and require a gold iron or diamond spear [Gold now does 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
At any speed above 12 maximum potential damage would be dealt [3(wood), 4(stone), 5(iron), 6(diamond), with gold doing 5 or 6 (50% chance)]
The above would require both a good horse and good equipment to achieve maximum utility from the weapon:
Top level gear would only be advantageous (other than for durability) when mounted. [Wood and stone versions will likely still be nearly unused after very early game, but I do not see a solution to this.]
Effectiveness in mounted combat would also be very dependant on the quality of the mount. [Both realistic and offering a strong incentive for players wanting to use mounted combat to seek out/breed such mounts. (Nether tarvel and ice roads having removed much of the impetus to obtaining fast horses.)]
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"Why does everything have to be so stoopid?" Harvey Pekar (from American Splendor)
WARNING: I have an extemely "grindy" playstyle; YMMV — if this doesn't seem fun to you, mine what you can from it & bin the rest.
I've had an idea for a spear for a while now too, but I'm think your idea is, in a word, too complex. There are too many different mechanics and similar items. But the thing I agree on is that we need a dedicated weapon for horses.
And in my opinion, elytra, too.
I would not mess with the movement controls. There's no real reason holding a lance would prevent jumping. I would keep everything bound to the mouse buttons.
I am primarily a console player. So mouse binding means nothing to me. That doesnt mean your idea isn't a good one for PC. I have bumper buttons and triggers, hence why charging an attack was an idea of mine. The not being able to jump was because I consider a lance to be a bit OP. But for simplicoty sake sure. Let them jump!
The same problem here - preventing jumping really hurts movement, and that's important in combat. Plus, having a weapon whose main purpose is basically to counter other players using a certain weapon set makes it almost a dud item.
I struggle to understand this logic. That is history. A country comes up with a weapon that seems unstoppable at first, so the other country finds a counter. If a horseman with a lance is charging you, and all you have is a sword and shield, they can jab and stab at you with no real worry about getting hit themselves. As stated in my idea, a sword has a 0 to 1 block range. A lance would have 2 to 3. Sure you could block all day long. But you wouldnt be able to attack very well unless you are ranged. And while you are drawing your crossbow or bow, you drop your shield. That is a good opening for te horseman to stab you.
You sure about that? You mention the attack is slower than a sword, well, in that case it's basically an axe used at a further range, which would make axes useless if not for the inhibited movement controls, which makes spears useless instead, since all these mobs can close the distance to you if you try to wait for them to recover if you use an axe, and 2-3 blocks is not much extra. Vindicators are even faster.
Axes are incredibly useless in my experience for anything other than chopping wood. 5 hits to kill a zombie? When I can kill one in three with a stone sword? Nah. A spear would be equivalent to an iron sword in damage. Hence the need to balance it out.
Which makes the spear a worse weapon to have on you than either the axe or the sword, and since players won't want to waste too much of their hotbar on weapons, that makes them quite a dud.
No more so than an axe. I usjally have a sword, and a bow or trident for battle. And sure I have an axe, but I only ever use it for chopping wood. See above response. Spear wouldnt be a dud. Not unless you made the trident have the range I mentioned for melee. But since it can be thrown I dont see this being implemented. It also has a similar 0 to 1 block melee range, like the sword. The tridents only advantage without enchantments, is that you can throw it. Hence, again, spear.
So not only will you want to switch from the spear to another weapon when encountering mobs against which using it would be "suicide", the game will hinder you doing so. Sorry, that's not much fun.
I suppose you may be correct. But the only time I would see a need to do that, is when tridents are being tossed at me, or a skeleton is shooting me, or a pillager is shooting me. Any other mob would be fended off quite easily since you have superior range for melee combat. The more enemies you face the harder it gets sure, but it can be done. Especially if we remove the need to hold down a button/key to attack. I still think then a regular spamming attack would be nice, and a "hold to power up" secondary function would be great. Now, it can be effectively used in any situation. Multiple enemies? Spam the spam attack. One or two? Charge that attack causing more damage and knockback. *gasp* the spear is now viable again!
I'll suggest my own.
I really like the idea in concept, but the execution is lackluster. My suggestion would be too focus on one weapon, have it have simple controls, but be unique and especially useful for horseback and elytra. And what the heck, for against foes on horseback too.
To this I agree.
I'd combine the two ideas of the lance and spear, so that the less common use against foes on horseback can be included without making the weapon used for it a dud. Just call it the "spear", since lances are just a type of spear. We'll need to make it sufficiently different from the sword and axe so it doesn't replace either one. We'll also either need to make the recovery fast or do something else, otherwise it will become too unwieldy on horseback or when flying. The thing is, at the speeds that people travel at on horseback or with elytra, you'd almost need to be able to spam-click to have any hope of correcting yourself if you miss. Or you'd need to stop, which is impossible with elytra and a bit stupid with horses, since that defeats the purpose of riding them.
See the long winded explanation to responses above. We have similar ideas.
So let's do something else instead. I will keep the base attack damage by attacking, but I will re-balance it based on what comes next. I don't think any type of loading or drawing should be used for spears - it made sense for the bow and crossbow, but there's no reason holding a spear longer would make it do more damage.
More powerful attack. Double the damage when charged, with the addition of knockback without an enchantment.
My idea is to instead have two "modes", which is just a fancy way of saying how you hold the spear, namely vertically (pointing skywards, no danger or use to anybody) and horizontally, pointing at wherever your crosshairs are pointing aka. where you look. You switch between them by right-clicking. No loading time, so drawing back, just "click" and the spear is pointing in a different direction - which you can see from how it's held in you hand.
I see an issue here. Will it reset to center after a certain time? How many "clicks" to get it pointed slightly left as opposed to right? Slightly up without being vertical? Will you have to cycle the clicks every time to get back to center?
The spear would be the weapon equivalent of the shield, doing stuff wherever it's pointed, though in contrast to the shield it would have far less wide and tall a range (just limited to the area around the crosshairs), and could be pointed upwards if you look up. Anything that moves into the point of the spear gets damaged and knocked back, but only if the person holding the spear is moving. The amount of damage is based on the type of spear (wooden through diamond) and the speed at which the person is moving. So if you are riding a horse or flying when the spear touches something you do much more damage and knockback than if you were just sprinting, and you do more damage if you sprint than if you walk, and none if you stand still.
As someone who has done some spear fighting in my life (training and practice obviously, I haven't been in a historical war in a phalanx killing people), I never had to move to do damage. Other than my arms and hands, maybe a lunge, and in fact, if I was running, or even walking, it was easier to get me off balance and find an opening as opposed to Just moving my arms and hands. So the whole moving to do damage is quite silly. I can better block and parry, attack and maneuver from a strong, standing, fighting stance.
The fact the spear does damage by you moving is the reason for the modes - so you don't accidentally impale your pets or your friends. But I did say I'd keep the base damage, and I will. You can attack normally with a spear, but only when held horizontally, and only at a range of three blocks. This means you can't accidentally hit your horse if on horseback, and means it is a viable way of fighting against an opponent on horseback, since you get extra range. I would make spears do half a heart less damage than swords of equal value (1,5, 2, 2.5, 3 hearts), but increase their recovery speed to 0.5, which means their attack speed would be 1/0.5 = 2 and their DPS 2 * (3, 4, 5, 6) = (6, 8, 10, 12), very close to that of swords. But since each hit is less damaging and you need to be at a certain range for the damage to count, swords are still the better choice when fighting against opponents on foot - a swordman can bridge the distance and chop you up.
Another reason to need an attack button. What you are saying isn't really making sense. It would be like me pointing my sword at my pets or friendlies and them getting hit. It doesnt happen. Not unless you "attack". Why would the spear be any different? Another fun fact about me. I also did some practice fights with a sword against a spear. Against a well trained spearmen, unless I had a shield, I wasnt able to get very close to a spearmen. Not easily. And even then they just had a dagger or arming sword and stabbed my happy ass or cut me if I did get close enough. With a shield I was more easily able to counter though. I imagine the same would be in Minecraft.
If you hit something that's within two blocks range of you, you switch from horizonal to vertical (this is the indicator the opponent is too close) and any hit you land does as much damage as your fist, but won't remove durability from the spear.
Keep in mind, the spear I am talking about when practicing was about 8feet long. It was cumbersome, running and moving too much was risky. And when I had two or more people against me. It was hard for me to be victorious. Jence my no jumping and s
No sprinting ideas.
Now. I also had experience on a short spear. About 4 to 6 feet long. I was almost unstoppable. Even against a person with a sword and shield. Granted I was able to parry their weapon, force myself in and hold their weapon, or throw them down and then stab them. None of which are things you can do in Minecraft. So. I tried to find a medium between the two. And came up with this. Though in retrospect, I agree with many of the criticisms. It should be more viable in the field. Not Just a counter weapon with mild uses in regilar combat.
The idea of a weapon that makes mounted combat desirable under some conditions is a good one.
[The pike/braced spear less so as these were historically ineffective except in formation; the effectiveness of the phalanx/pike square was dependant on the opponent bot being able to 'go around'.]
Bravo, Mallon on the rework.
I would suggest, however, having the tip of an unmoving spear do minor damage (as fist) and block movement along the shaft. [Bears and boars were notoriously able to 'walk up' spear shafts to attack the weilder, but this does not seem suited to MC combat.]
This level of damage would make it necessary to be cautious moving about with a spear 'at point', but is low enough actually killing friendlies should be rare.
I do not understabd from your post how you intend to adjust damage with the speed of the attacker: my ideas are below:
[Using closing speed rather than the movement speed of the attacker would be more realistic, but might be too computationally expensive.]
Player walking speed is 4.3 blocks per second
Player sprint speed is 5.6 BPS
Minimum horse is ~4.8 BPS
Average horse is ~9 BPS
Maximum horse is ~14.5 BPS [All values assume no status effects.]
Given the chunkiness of the damage (3, 4, 5, or 6 points per hit – depending on material) there isn't a lot of room to scale damage with speed.
One solution would be to have the lesser tiers (wood and stone) 'top out'. [Extending this to iron lances might also create a place for gold lances, if these – while doing the same base damage as wooden ones – the performance of gold lances continued to improve.]
There are not wood, stone, gold, iron, and diamond tridents. It is just, the trident. Simplify all of these issues you have. A spear is just a spear. With damage equal to either an iron sword, or a base trident. Just with greater range, and the ability to "knockback" an enemy with a charged attack alone, no need for an enchantment.
Player walking speed or below would offer a simple 1 damage improvement (to 2 ) over the unmoving (fist equivalent) spear
Up to and including player sprint speed would add another damage point (to 3 the maximum for a wooden spear)
Up to, but NOT including average horse speed (9 BPS), another (to 4 the maximum for a stone spear) [Gold would do 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
From 9-12 BPS (inclusive) would do 5 damage and require a gold iron or diamond spear [Gold now does 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
At any speed above 12 maximum potential damage would be dealt [3(wood), 4(stone), 5(iron), 6(diamond), with gold doing 5 or 6 (50% chance)]
The above would require both a good horse and good equipment to achieve maximum utility from the weapon:
Top level gear would only be advantageous (other than for durability) when mounted. [Wood and stone versions will likely still be nearly unused after very early game, but I do not see a solution to this.]
Effectiveness in mounted combat would also be very dependant on the quality of the mount. [Both realistic and offering a strong incentive for players wanting to use mounted combat to seek out/breed such mounts. (Nether tarvel and ice roads having removed much of the impetus to obtaining fast horses.)]
-Again. Get rid of the tiers. Just one type of spear with unique enchantment availabilities as well as a charged attack having knockback 2. With a base attack of an iron sword or a trident.
-I like the idea of blocking movement if the crosshair is on an approaching enemy. It will be the closest to the parrying a spearmen would be capable of in real life, use the base "spam" attack to do base damage at the risk of "walking up" of another the mob, and charge to knockback. (Walking backward while charging the attack and keeping the mob on sight would still impede movement, whereas attacking would remove the movement blocking mechanic)
I would suggest, however, having the tip of an unmoving spear do minor damage (as fist) and block movement along the shaft. [Bears and boars were notoriously able to 'walk up' spear shafts to attack the weilder, but this does not seem suited to MC combat.]
This level of damage would make it necessary to be cautious moving about with a spear 'at point', but is low enough actually killing friendlies should be rare.
I would not have the spear block movement under any circumstance; I actually did consider it myself, and indeed compared the alternative to someone running up the spear, but letting the spear block movement in addition to having longer reach would make it a better weapon than sword and axe, period. I'd wager this would be true even if is had a lower attack speed and damage than the sword. True, you could still get swarmed, but the tactic there even with sword and axe is to back up and hit them one by one, which the reach would work wonders for. In one on one, you could quite literally keep melee mobs and creepers from touching you while hitting them back.
With my suggestion, you can do something similar, namely hit them repeatedly while they are at a distance and use the knockback to keep them there, but you have to be skilled, quick, and if you hit too late once they're out of the zone where you can effectively damage them, while they can most certainly damage you. Needing the speed and skill (plus the spear going vertical) was the compromise that kept them from being overpowered.
Regarding "walking up" the spear, I don't think it's a problem. Weapons and tools noclip into blocks and mobs all the time in minecraft, so I doubt people would think this is any different.
The spear doing minor damage would also be out unless damage doesn't do any knockback (in which case you'd have the same problem of the spear easily keeping mobs back). I'm... not completely against that. Ultimately it would come down to balancing, and I guess it would help teach how the spear works. So yeah, sure, I'm for it. But no base knockback - let's have it be like a cactus.
I do not understabd from your post how you intend to adjust damage with the speed of the attacker: my ideas are below:
[Using closing speed rather than the movement speed of the attacker would be more realistic, but might be too computationally expensive.]
Player walking speed is 4.3 blocks per second
Player sprint speed is 5.6 BPS
Minimum horse is ~4.8 BPS
Average horse is ~9 BPS
Maximum horse is ~14.5 BPS [All values assume no status effects.]
Given the chunkiness of the damage (3, 4, 5, or 6 points per hit – depending on material) there isn't a lot of room to scale damage with speed.
In general, I was thinking the tiers would have a base multiplier, or power or something like that and then round. A formula I'm happy with is speed divided by 6, 3, 2.25 and 1.75, for wood/gold, stone, iron and diamond respectively. With wood, walking does 0.7 hearts of damage, rounded to 0.5, sprinting 0.93 rounded to 1, riding an average horse does 1.5 and riding a maximum horse does 2.416, so 2.5. With stone, it's walking 1.5, sprinting 2, average horse 3 and maximum horse 5. Iron, it's walking 2, sprinting 2.5, an average horse 4 and a maximum horse 6.5. With diamond it's walking 2.5, sprinting 3, average horse 5 and maximum horse 8.
Knockback would be calculated similarly.
One solution would be to have the lesser tiers (wood and stone) 'top out'. [Extending this to iron lances might also create a place for gold lances, if these – while doing the same base damage as wooden ones – the performance of gold lances continued to improve.]
Player walking speed or below would offer a simple 1 damage improvement (to 2 ) over the unmoving (fist equivalent) spear
Up to and including player sprint speed would add another damage point (to 3 the maximum for a wooden spear)
Up to, but NOT including average horse speed (9 BPS), another (to 4 the maximum for a stone spear) [Gold would do 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
From 9-12 BPS (inclusive) would do 5 damage and require a gold iron or diamond spear [Gold now does 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
At any speed above 12 maximum potential damage would be dealt [3(wood), 4(stone), 5(iron), 6(diamond), with gold doing 5 or 6 (50% chance)]
The above would require both a good horse and good equipment to achieve maximum utility from the weapon:
Top level gear would only be advantageous (other than for durability) when mounted. [Wood and stone versions will likely still be nearly unused after very early game, but I do not see a solution to this.]
I like your idea, but I like the simplicity of my formula better. I think higher tier spears should be more useful on the ground as well as on horseback as opposed to lower tier ones, and just have lower tier ones "top out" means they're useless on horseback, but offer no disadvantage (besides durability) on the ground. Ground combat should really be limited to normal attacks, which is why no sprint attack in my system does more damage than a normal strike, though I guess you could "combo" by hitting then sprinting before the spear recovers. Anybody who manages this trick is welcome to it, I think.
Effectiveness in mounted combat would also be very dependant on the quality of the mount. [Both realistic and offering a strong incentive for players wanting to use mounted combat to seek out/breed such mounts. (Nether tarvel and ice roads having removed much of the impetus to obtaining fast horses.)]
Quite! This is another reason I like this idea so much - fast horses make for a lot of damage, the fastest horse combined with a diamond spear doing a whopping 8 hearts, or 16 hitpoints. A good elytra swoop might do similar. And that's not even considering the possibility of enchantments.
All the wordiness. Although I enjoy the fact it has sparked such thought outbreplies.
Yeeeeesssss.... I know. It's just, I've had too many times where I've left something implicit and someone missed it or misunderstood. I keep on the safe side nowadays, or try to.
I am primarily a console player. So mouse binding means nothing to me. That doesnt mean your idea isn't a good one for PC. I have bumper buttons and triggers, hence why charging an attack was an idea of mine. The not being able to jump was because I consider a lance to be a bit OP. But for simplicoty sake sure. Let them jump!
Thank you. This was important for me, so I'm grateful you've accepted it so easily. The fact you are a console player explains quite a lot (this will come up somewhat often in the following replies), since you don't use the 1.8 combat system - which I had forgotten. I'll try and tailor my suggestions so they'll work for your combat system too, or offer a slight variant.
I struggle to understand this logic. That is history. A country comes up with a weapon that seems unstoppable at first, so the other country finds a counter. If a horseman with a lance is charging you, and all you have is a sword and shield, they can jab and stab at you with no real worry about getting hit themselves. As stated in my idea, a sword has a 0 to 1 block range. A lance would have 2 to 3. Sure you could block all day long. But you wouldnt be able to attack very well unless you are ranged. And while you are drawing your crossbow or bow, you drop your shield. That is a good opening for te horseman to stab you.
If mounted horsemen were a common threat (say, on a long existing and populated multiplayer pvp server, or if there was a common mounted mob that spawned with a spear) then you would have a good argument. If there's something common you need to counter, having a counter around would be useful. But mostly, mounted horsemen are rare, so players as a whole would generally just rely on their primary weapon (be it sword or axe), maybe include a bow, and take their chances. They wouldn't sacrifice a slot in the hotbar or even their inventory to carry around something they'll only very rarely or even never use. That would make it a dud. How many players carry around a bucket of milk, just in case they fight a witch? Practically zero - players takes their chances they'll be able to handle it without the milk, and free up an hotbar slot by doing so.
Axes are incredibly useless in my experience for anything other than chopping wood. 5 hits to kill a zombie? When I can kill one in three with a stone sword? Nah. A spear would be equivalent to an iron sword in damage. Hence the need to balance it out.
This is where we see a bit of difference - in the java edition, axes do more damage than swords (wooden axe: 7 hitpoints, wooden sword: 4). The trade off is axes use two durability each hit and recover slower; If you spam click, you do fist damage, you need to wait for the recovery bar to refill in order to do full damage. Swords have more DPS (damage per second) because they can attack faster, but axes do more damage each hit. Which you prefer depends on your playstyle. Me, I prefer the axe.
But for the console edition, we don't need to prevent the spear making the axe obsolete as a weapon, since, well, it isn't a weapon. But we do need to prevent spears from making swords less useful. To this end I think making each type of spear (yes, I know, I'll get to why I think there should be more than one later) do less damage than the sword, which it makes up for (slightly, but not really) with range. I proposed spears do 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3 hearts of damage respectively in the java edition, and I think these amounts work for the console edition too, since swords in the console edition do half a heart more damage than swords in the java edition.
No more so than an axe. I usjally have a sword, and a bow or trident for battle. And sure I have an axe, but I only ever use it for chopping wood. See above response. Spear wouldnt be a dud. Not unless you made the trident have the range I mentioned for melee. But since it can be thrown I dont see this being implemented. It also has a similar 0 to 1 block melee range, like the sword. The tridents only advantage without enchantments, is that you can throw it. Hence, again, spear.
Eh, eh, I see what you're getting at, but the problem is spears aren't different enough compared to the sword (on foot) to make them useful enough. Tridents and bows can hit mobs and players at a very large range, far further than the spear, and are needed often to counter skeletons and creepers, which are very common mobs. Spears (as you first proposed them) are not a big enough counter to any mob or normal player and have to weaknesses you described. Hence why people would stick to swords.
I suppose you may be correct. But the only time I would see a need to do that, is when tridents are being tossed at me, or a skeleton is shooting me, or a pillager is shooting me.
Being shot at by a skeleton isn't all that rare. But besides that, the game slowing your switching would feel unfair and artificial, especially if it gets you killed. You don't want to trap players in a Mortens Fork - either die because the spear is a bad weapon against skeletons, or die because the spear won't let you switch to a bow fast enough.
Any other mob would be fended off quite easily since you have superior range for melee combat.
If is true, and I'll take your word for it, it's a problem. Why? Because fending off mobs shouldn't be easy, or at least not easier than with a sword. Even if it's only slightly more easier, you get the problem that spears will replace swords. And that shouldn't happen.
The more enemies you face the harder it gets sure, but it can be done.
In which case spears won't be used in melee, since swords can be used effectively against both single enemies and crowds - a spear being incrementally better than a sword wouldn't be enough for players to sacrifice another hotbar slot, unless... unless the spear outclasses the sword enormously against single enemies, in which case you'll have players using spears, swords and bows/tridents.
But that's a problem by itself. Normal gameplay would become easier, since spears would offer a new way of dealing with mobs. And making normal gameplay easier isn't on Mojang's to-do list. They have in fact been making the game harder. They could do that again to deal with spear wielding people, but that's a whole other... thing that would like to avoid talking about here.
Especially if we remove the need to hold down a button/key to attack. I still think then a regular spamming attack would be nice, and a "hold to power up" secondary function would be great. Now, it can be effectively used in any situation. Multiple enemies? Spam the spam attack. One or two? Charge that attack causing more damage and knockback. *gasp* the spear is now viable again!
I've already said my piece on the problems of making the spear viable. We have swords, and we should make sure we don't replace them.
Regarding the charging mechanic - "charging" up for a really big stab isn't the least intuitive thing in the world, I suppose, but there's one big problem with charging attacks: They are very imprecise. You need a slow, or at most normally moving enemy moving in a predictable direction for you to have a chance to hit, which is true of neither players riding horses (they move too fast for you to reliably hit them before they've moved in too close and after they've come into range), nor of players facing horse-riding opponents (they would jump side to side). Just try to hit mobs while riding and using a sword now - you can spam, but you'll be sure to miss most swings. You can't spam charged attacks. So I'm completely against charged attacks on weapons made to be used on horses or against horse-riding opponents.
To this I agree.
Great!
See the long winded explanation to responses above. We have similar ideas.
We do indeed.
More powerful attack. Double the damage when charged, with the addition of knockback without an enchantment.
I got that that was what it did, I just didn't see how it would be intuitive. I do now, but I have other issues with the charged attack, you you know.
I see an issue here. Will it reset to center after a certain time? How many "clicks" to get it pointed slightly left as opposed to right? Slightly up without being vertical? Will you have to cycle the clicks every time to get back to center?
I think you misunderstood. Holding the spear vertically means it is held like a staff, and points at the sky no matter where you look. Right-clicking once makes it go "horizontal", but that means it points wherever you look. You look in front of you, it points there, you look to the side, it points there, you look up, it points up, you look down, it points down, no clicking required. It follows your camera. It doesn't stay pointed in one direction unless you keep looking in that direction. No cycling of clicks needed.
As someone who has done some spear fighting in my life (training and practice obviously, I haven't been in a historical war in a phalanx killing people), I never had to move to do damage. Other than my arms and hands, maybe a lunge, and in fact, if I was running, or even walking, it was easier to get me off balance and find an opening as opposed to Just moving my arms and hands. So the whole moving to do damage is quite silly. I can better block and parry, attack and maneuver from a strong, standing, fighting stance.
You do HEMA? Cool. I've been meaning to get into that, but there's no group close to me. I do do jugger, though, have done kung fu spear fighting and watch a ton of videos on YouTube on HEMA. Spears were indeed better than swords for fighting, though I think you're underestimating the value of good footwork. Here's Lindybeige's video on the subject:
All of this is very interesting as a starting point, but we can't follow through on that entirely. Realism is good for two things: immersion, and giving players the ability to work out how things in a game work by using their already existing knowledge. It has its limits. But still, we can try to stick with it up until a point. That point is where spears would become so useful that they would replaces swords in minecraft.
If you have to try and equate minecraft's mechanics with real life, moving and doing damage with a spear would be lunging. Attacking normally with the spear (which is the primary way I would want people to attack when on the ground) would be the normal stabbing motion. moving to do damage should only become the primary method when on a horse, or while flying, since there it is too easy to miss if you had to rely on attacking normally.
Another reason to need an attack button.
I suggested one. Second to last paragraph, second line. I suggested spears can be used to attack normally if they are being held horizontally, but only at a range of three blocks.
What you are saying isn't really making sense. It would be like me pointing my sword at my pets or friendlies and them getting hit. It doesnt happen. Not unless you "attack".
Because we need a mechanic to reliably attack while riding a horse (and elytra, though that's the cherry on the cake). Having to attack normally would make you miss a lot. I suggested this type of attack because it's as close as I could get to what knights in the real world do: Hold their lance in the crook of their arm, charge and point the lance at the enemy. They don't also stab forward with the lance. The reason they do this is because trying to stab would make them miss, and the force behind a lance held by a charging knight on horseback is more than enough by itself.
Why would the spear be any different?
Because we were trying to make a weapon that is uniquely suited for fighting on horseback.
Another fun fact about me. I also did some practice fights with a sword against a spear. Against a well trained spearmen, unless I had a shield, I wasnt able to get very close to a spearmen. Not easily. And even then they just had a dagger or arming sword and stabbed my happy ass or cut me if I did get close enough. With a shield I was more easily able to counter though. I imagine the same would be in Minecraft.
I imagine a shield would be very useful against a spearman. However, since we are trying not to make swords by themselves (without a shield) less powerful than spears, we can't implement all the abilities a spear has.
Keep in mind, the spear I am talking about when practicing was about 8feet long. It was cumbersome, running and moving too much was risky. And when I had two or more people against me. It was hard for me to be victorious. Jence my no jumping and s
No sprinting ideas.
Now. I also had experience on a short spear. About 4 to 6 feet long. I was almost unstoppable. Even against a person with a sword and shield. Granted I was able to parry their weapon, force myself in and hold their weapon, or throw them down and then stab them. None of which are things you can do in Minecraft. So. I tried to find a medium between the two. And came up with this. Though in retrospect, I agree with many of the criticisms. It should be more viable in the field. Not Just a counter weapon with mild uses in regilar combat.
Spears are awesome, I agree. Thank you for listening to my criticism. However much I may disagree with you, I very much respect someone who does that.
There are not wood, stone, gold, iron, and diamond tridents. It is just, the trident. Simplify all of these issues you have. A spear is just a spear. With damage equal to either an iron sword, or a base trident. Just with greater range, and the ability to "knockback" an enemy with a charged attack alone, no need for an enchantment.
-Again. Get rid of the tiers. Just one type of spear with unique enchantment availabilities as well as a charged attack having knockback 2. With a base attack of an iron sword or a trident.
My last pieces of criticism for today: Tridents do indeed not have tiers. There are reasons for that, though, and it is because getting them is assumed to happen around the time people have diamonds to spare already and the ability to enchant, and to make acquiring them more interesting than just crafting them. Tridents below diamond-tier (which is what I consider the current ones to be) would be too similar to bows and arrows, not being enchanted, and having only one to spare (as opposed to multiple arrows). I'd bet good money that if wooden, stone, iron and gold tridents were introduced into the game they would mostly go unused - on land. Maybe the wooden and stone ones would get some use until the player gets a bow and some arrows, but not after. Javelins have been repeatedly rejected by Mojang for years before the trident came along, for these reasons.
But I did say on land. A lot of people don't use tridents even now, and even you admitted they were at least equal in usefulness to bows and arrows (or at least that's what I understood, pardon if I'm wrong). Where they shine is under water. There they are the weapon to use, and for good reason, since you can forget about bows and arrows. The fact they have an area where they are very useful, even if they aren't used by all players everywhere, means that they were a good addition to the game.
Spears could be implemented similarly - you could have them be found in dungeon chest along with horse armour and saddles. Have them be the weapon that shine when used while horse riding (and flying).
I don't think that's the best implementation method though. With leather horse armour becoming craftable in 1.14 java edition and saddles becoming more and more easy to get (through trading, fishing and lots of loot chests) Mojang is making riding horses easier. If players can start riding early in the game, though, you want to give them the ability to fight on horseback too - to make it even more attractive to do. But if you put spears in loot chests you have to decide if they should be early game weapons or late game. If they are early game weapons, they'll make horseriding attractive early on (at least for a while), but if you make them late game weapons you either have to make them rare, which will negate the attractiveness of fighting on horseback, or you'll make them common and give players an overpowered weapon.
I say, split the difference! I'm fine with spears not being craftable, like higher-tier horse armour, but having different tiers (with the higher ones being rarer) will make players have both early game and late game weapons for horse riding.
Edit:
Yeesh, that turned out longer than I expected. Sorry about that.
My guy...I am glad you have interacted with me. I sincerely mean that! And the more I read, the more it made sense. I agree. With much of what i have read. (I shamefully admit I started to skim. But I forced myself to look over some points again because they were quite good). Also...that video. .I am pretty sure is the one I watched that got me into spear fighting! I like Lindy Beige. HEMA is life. Well. Was. Money shortage. Atm. I did DAGhorhir in the meantime for a while. But then distance happened amd I havent been able to go recently...so I know your pain.You were correct in regards to my trident comment. In fact, I have to force myself to use the trident and really only have it with me in case I run out of arrows. I didnt even want to equip a trident until I got loyalty any way, and indeed didn't. As for some of your points;
-movement equals damage; I agree.
-above point specifically for elytra and cavalry. I tried being an angel. Using an elytra and cruising around trying to attack mobs. If I got a hit with a bow or trident I was lucky. 90% of the time I missed. Otherwise I would hit the ground trying to attack a mob.(What weapon was I using I wonder? 3 guesses. First two dont count. Lol). And you know how I feel about current cavalry combat.
-found in chests with saddles and horse armor, yes!
-rarity tiers, yes! But I would like a base craftable version. Due to the fact there have been plenty of games I was irritated about because my loot sucked. Or I set off the trap and auto save was on...and there were no other desert temples, stuff like that. I think it should be stone, gold, diamond, and iron only though. No wood.
-I think it should be early game. It doesn't usually take long to find a horse and tame it. And as I stated originally, horses are basically useless for anything other than transportation currently. And of course because of the bad range of a sword...horse armor in and of itself is basically useless. You can outrun most arrows. You can outrun ignited creepers. Definitely zombies, etc. The point of armor is for combat. And unless you have a bow and arrow, combat with a horse is pointless. And with a bow or even trident, it is slow and dull. You have to stop to aim and shoot, or go really really slow. Takes the fun out of it. Add to that the terrible sword from horse combat, and horses again are almost useless.
-there is a base attack on top of the movement, but only if on foot. I agree.
-it definitely shouldn't replace the sword
There's more I want to say, but battery at 12% will have to come back later.
I'd say the spear should be a standalone weapon, and not just a counter to the lance. I'd even make it a lot stronger than the sword (higher DPS + bigger range + block with spear, taking at least 3 durability points), seeing as how spears outclass swords in real life. On the other hand, wielding the spear should require the use of both hands, meaning that you can't place anything in your off hand if you want to use a spear.
As I have read the criticisms and points I agree. Lance and spear should be reduced to spear basically.
I agree you should be able to have that increased range and stronger attack. The range being the main reason for this suggestion to begin with. I don't think it should be too much more powerful than a sword though. Because as stated above, we dont want to replace the sword entirely.
With the spear, a tactic used against swordsman was the constant, quick, jabbing amd smacking of the opponents shield forcing them to block in many places. The idea being you tire them out, or you fake them out and sieze the opening. Either smacking their shield away and stabbing their opening, or pushing then off balance. It also served a purpose of keepong them focused more on blocking and less on attacking.
I was able to pull of some lucky blocks, and parrys with the shaft of the spear leading to that glorious grapple. But not often.
And yes. I agree that you habe to use two hands. In order to have the 2 to 3 block range (each block being about 1 meter) you would have to have an 8 to 10 feet spear. Thus needing two hands. A short spear needing one hand would have the same range as a sword, 0 to 1 block which is what I am trying to improve.
And even though it can be used on foot, ideally, it would be used on Horseback or with an Elytra. Also as agreed upon above.
Since my main gripe was the lackluster and pointless cavalry combat capabilities due to the bad range of melee weapons, I not only want this to be added to the base game (since I am a console peasent primarily and can't install MODS) to make Cavaley viable, but would likely only use it Airborne or Horseback. I would muddle with it on foot sure, but I dream of charging into the note with my nible war steed, charging all manner of hostile mob effectively, efficiently, and quickly.
An added bonus, this would probably work reallt well against pillagers (since their crossbows take longer to reload than a bow), and, Pillager beasts. I forgot their actual name already...so yeah. I may write a new suggestion post focusing on spear only and using the feedback I got here. I hear the developers hate TLDR ideas...so...short and sweet is best.
Oh, more or less an agreement! Sorry for the confusion. Any further criticisms on my part would just be nit-picking, I feel. I'm happy where we've gotten to.
As am I. Hopefully, whether it be through you or me, this suggestion gets to the hot topic section of Minecraft forum.
Horses as fast travel habe serbed their purpose. With new hostile mobs, especially the pillager beast, we now need viable cavalry. Like was stated. Portal travel and ice travel have rendered horses to be no more than a slower transport system.
Let us bring back their usefulness. Repurpose them in the next combat update. Let them be the fast hitting, powerful, prized animals. A reason to collect and breed them. And an actual purpose for horse armor.
Armored horses are fun. At least they can be. I used to charge mobs, but quickly realized there really was no real purpose to have armored horses, at least not for melee charges.
You need to be between 0 and 1 block away from a mob to even have a chance to hit them, and even then it was so close the mob tended to vanish in front of the horse, so you missed a lot.
I propose 2 new weapons.
-1. A lance. Used specifically for horse combat, has a range of 2 to 3 blocks as opposed to 0 to 1block (that way you can still see the mob you are trying to hit), and for balancing, holding the "jump" key/button when a lance is equipped replaces jump with "power". The longer you hold it, the stronger the hit. Attack upon release of "power" key/button. Can only be used on horseback. Effective against Ravagers (Pillager beast).
-2. A spear. Used to counter lances. Range of 2 to 3 blocks, replaces "jump" with "brace". The longer you hold it, the stronger you "brace". A full brace will harm the horseman and you take half the damage you normally would.
The spear can be used on foot against regular mobs. When equipped you can't sprint, and you can't jump. Great against Zombies, Husks, players on horseback, Vindicators. Ok against melee Drowned, and Zombie Pigmen (their swarm mechanic will quickly overrun you). Not recommended against creepers(knockback needed). Bad against Skeletons, Trident Drowned, Pillagers, and Evokers. It is basically suicide as they will always out maneuver and out damage you.
Regular attack will be slower than a sword, but more powerful. Weapon/item slot switching time will be increased when switching to or from a spear for balancing.
I have the crafting recipes for both of these, however I am on mobile so I have no way to share them. That I know of anyway.
I would like this to be added
Sounds well thought out and gives mounts a bit more use in combat.
We do have horse armour to prevent our noble steeds from dying
(though those evil cacti do prove to be worthy opponents to them)
due to enemy inflicted injury...but other then defense there isn't
really much to do with horses in the area of offense (at the moment
fighting on foot seems more viable...which is contrary to what people
might guess at first). So a horseback only weapon and a fitting
counter to that seems like a nice addition.
All in all an interesting idea that has to be fitted around the other two
weapons that have been added lately (trident & crossbow).
Though it seems you have already given one or two thoughts into this.
On a further note: How does the lance fare against people
blocking the incoming attack with the shield? Does the shield block
the damage?Has the lance got some armour piercing stat or does
it behave similar to the axe in this case? Same could be asked with the
spear I guess. Oh! What happens if the riders block lances with their
shields? Do they get thrown off their mounts like in a jousting match?
So in essence...what about shields?
I've had an idea for a spear for a while now too, but I'm think your idea is, in a word, too complex. There are too many different mechanics and similar items. But the thing I agree on is that we need a dedicated weapon for horses.
And in my opinion, elytra, too.
I would not mess with the movement controls. There's no real reason holding a lance would prevent jumping. I would keep everything bound to the mouse buttons.
The same problem here - preventing jumping really hurts movement, and that's important in combat. Plus, having a weapon whose main purpose is basically to counter other players using a certain weapon set makes it almost a dud item.
You sure about that? You mention the attack is slower than a sword, well, in that case it's basically an axe used at a further range, which would make axes useless if not for the inhibited movement controls, which makes spears useless instead, since all these mobs can close the distance to you if you try to wait for them to recover if you use an axe, and 2-3 blocks is not much extra. Vindicators are even faster.
Which makes the spear a worse weapon to have on you than either the axe or the sword, and since players won't want to waste too much of their hotbar on weapons, that makes them quite a dud.
So not only will you want to switch from the spear to another weapon when encountering mobs against which using it would be "suicide", the game will hinder you doing so. Sorry, that's not much fun.
I'll suggest my own.
I really like the idea in concept, but the execution is lackluster. My suggestion would be too focus on one weapon, have it have simple controls, but be unique and especially useful for horseback and elytra. And what the heck, for against foes on horseback too.
I'd combine the two ideas of the lance and spear, so that the less common use against foes on horseback can be included without making the weapon used for it a dud. Just call it the "spear", since lances are just a type of spear. We'll need to make it sufficiently different from the sword and axe so it doesn't replace either one. We'll also either need to make the recovery fast or do something else, otherwise it will become too unwieldy on horseback or when flying. The thing is, at the speeds that people travel at on horseback or with elytra, you'd almost need to be able to spam-click to have any hope of correcting yourself if you miss. Or you'd need to stop, which is impossible with elytra and a bit stupid with horses, since that defeats the purpose of riding them.
So let's do something else instead. I will keep the base attack damage by attacking, but I will re-balance it based on what comes next. I don't think any type of loading or drawing should be used for spears - it made sense for the bow and crossbow, but there's no reason holding a spear longer would make it do more damage. My idea is to instead have two "modes", which is just a fancy way of saying how you hold the spear, namely vertically (pointing skywards, no danger or use to anybody) and horizontally, pointing at wherever your crosshairs are pointing aka. where you look. You switch between them by right-clicking. No loading time, so drawing back, just "click" and the spear is pointing in a different direction - which you can see from how it's held in you hand.
The spear would be the weapon equivalent of the shield, doing stuff wherever it's pointed, though in contrast to the shield it would have far less wide and tall a range (just limited to the area around the crosshairs), and could be pointed upwards if you look up. Anything that moves into the point of the spear gets damaged and knocked back, but only if the person holding the spear is moving. The amount of damage is based on the type of spear (wooden through diamond) and the speed at which the person is moving. So if you are riding a horse or flying when the spear touches something you do much more damage and knockback than if you were just sprinting, and you do more damage if you sprint than if you walk, and none if you stand still.
The fact the spear does damage by you moving is the reason for the modes - so you don't accidentally impale your pets or your friends. But I did say I'd keep the base damage, and I will. You can attack normally with a spear, but only when held horizontally, and only at a range of three blocks. This means you can't accidentally hit your horse if on horseback, and means it is a viable way of fighting against an opponent on horseback, since you get extra range. I would make spears do half a heart less damage than swords of equal value (1,5, 2, 2.5, 3 hearts), but increase their recovery speed to 0.5, which means their attack speed would be 1/0.5 = 2 and their DPS 2 * (3, 4, 5, 6) = (6, 8, 10, 12), very close to that of swords. But since each hit is less damaging and you need to be at a certain range for the damage to count, swords are still the better choice when fighting against opponents on foot - a swordman can bridge the distance and chop you up.
If you hit something that's within two blocks range of you, you switch from horizonal to vertical (this is the indicator the opponent is too close) and any hit you land does as much damage as your fist, but won't remove durability from the spear.
The idea of a weapon that makes mounted combat desirable under some conditions is a good one.
[The pike/braced spear less so as these were historically ineffective except in formation; the effectiveness of the phalanx/pike square was dependant on the opponent bot being able to 'go around'.]
Bravo, Mallon on the rework.
I would suggest, however, having the tip of an unmoving spear do minor damage (as fist) and block movement along the shaft. [Bears and boars were notoriously able to 'walk up' spear shafts to attack the weilder, but this does not seem suited to MC combat.]
This level of damage would make it necessary to be cautious moving about with a spear 'at point', but is low enough actually killing friendlies should be rare.
I do not understabd from your post how you intend to adjust damage with the speed of the attacker: my ideas are below:
[Using closing speed rather than the movement speed of the attacker would be more realistic, but might be too computationally expensive.]
Player walking speed is 4.3 blocks per second
Player sprint speed is 5.6 BPS
Minimum horse is ~4.8 BPS
Average horse is ~9 BPS
Maximum horse is ~14.5 BPS [All values assume no status effects.]
Given the chunkiness of the damage (3, 4, 5, or 6 points per hit – depending on material) there isn't a lot of room to scale damage with speed.
One solution would be to have the lesser tiers (wood and stone) 'top out'. [Extending this to iron lances might also create a place for gold lances, if these – while doing the same base damage as wooden ones – the performance of gold lances continued to improve.]
Player walking speed or below would offer a simple 1 damage improvement (to 2 ) over the unmoving (fist equivalent) spear
Up to and including player sprint speed would add another damage point (to 3 the maximum for a wooden spear)
Up to, but NOT including average horse speed (9 BPS), another (to 4 the maximum for a stone spear) [Gold would do 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
From 9-12 BPS (inclusive) would do 5 damage and require a gold iron or diamond spear [Gold now does 3 or 4 (50% chance) at this tier]
At any speed above 12 maximum potential damage would be dealt [3(wood), 4(stone), 5(iron), 6(diamond), with gold doing 5 or 6 (50% chance)]
The above would require both a good horse and good equipment to achieve maximum utility from the weapon:
Top level gear would only be advantageous (other than for durability) when mounted. [Wood and stone versions will likely still be nearly unused after very early game, but I do not see a solution to this.]
Effectiveness in mounted combat would also be very dependant on the quality of the mount. [Both realistic and offering a strong incentive for players wanting to use mounted combat to seek out/breed such mounts. (Nether tarvel and ice roads having removed much of the impetus to obtaining fast horses.)]
All the wordiness. Although I enjoy the fact it has sparked such thought outbreplies.
I am primarily a console player. So mouse binding means nothing to me. That doesnt mean your idea isn't a good one for PC. I have bumper buttons and triggers, hence why charging an attack was an idea of mine. The not being able to jump was because I consider a lance to be a bit OP. But for simplicoty sake sure. Let them jump!
I struggle to understand this logic. That is history. A country comes up with a weapon that seems unstoppable at first, so the other country finds a counter. If a horseman with a lance is charging you, and all you have is a sword and shield, they can jab and stab at you with no real worry about getting hit themselves. As stated in my idea, a sword has a 0 to 1 block range. A lance would have 2 to 3. Sure you could block all day long. But you wouldnt be able to attack very well unless you are ranged. And while you are drawing your crossbow or bow, you drop your shield. That is a good opening for te horseman to stab you.
Axes are incredibly useless in my experience for anything other than chopping wood. 5 hits to kill a zombie? When I can kill one in three with a stone sword? Nah. A spear would be equivalent to an iron sword in damage. Hence the need to balance it out.
No more so than an axe. I usjally have a sword, and a bow or trident for battle. And sure I have an axe, but I only ever use it for chopping wood. See above response. Spear wouldnt be a dud. Not unless you made the trident have the range I mentioned for melee. But since it can be thrown I dont see this being implemented. It also has a similar 0 to 1 block melee range, like the sword. The tridents only advantage without enchantments, is that you can throw it. Hence, again, spear.
I suppose you may be correct. But the only time I would see a need to do that, is when tridents are being tossed at me, or a skeleton is shooting me, or a pillager is shooting me. Any other mob would be fended off quite easily since you have superior range for melee combat. The more enemies you face the harder it gets sure, but it can be done. Especially if we remove the need to hold down a button/key to attack. I still think then a regular spamming attack would be nice, and a "hold to power up" secondary function would be great. Now, it can be effectively used in any situation. Multiple enemies? Spam the spam attack. One or two? Charge that attack causing more damage and knockback. *gasp* the spear is now viable again!
To this I agree.
See the long winded explanation to responses above. We have similar ideas.
More powerful attack. Double the damage when charged, with the addition of knockback without an enchantment.
I see an issue here. Will it reset to center after a certain time? How many "clicks" to get it pointed slightly left as opposed to right? Slightly up without being vertical? Will you have to cycle the clicks every time to get back to center?
As someone who has done some spear fighting in my life (training and practice obviously, I haven't been in a historical war in a phalanx killing people), I never had to move to do damage. Other than my arms and hands, maybe a lunge, and in fact, if I was running, or even walking, it was easier to get me off balance and find an opening as opposed to Just moving my arms and hands. So the whole moving to do damage is quite silly. I can better block and parry, attack and maneuver from a strong, standing, fighting stance.
Another reason to need an attack button. What you are saying isn't really making sense. It would be like me pointing my sword at my pets or friendlies and them getting hit. It doesnt happen. Not unless you "attack". Why would the spear be any different? Another fun fact about me. I also did some practice fights with a sword against a spear. Against a well trained spearmen, unless I had a shield, I wasnt able to get very close to a spearmen. Not easily. And even then they just had a dagger or arming sword and stabbed my happy ass or cut me if I did get close enough. With a shield I was more easily able to counter though. I imagine the same would be in Minecraft.
Keep in mind, the spear I am talking about when practicing was about 8feet long. It was cumbersome, running and moving too much was risky. And when I had two or more people against me. It was hard for me to be victorious. Jence my no jumping and s
No sprinting ideas.
Now. I also had experience on a short spear. About 4 to 6 feet long. I was almost unstoppable. Even against a person with a sword and shield. Granted I was able to parry their weapon, force myself in and hold their weapon, or throw them down and then stab them. None of which are things you can do in Minecraft. So. I tried to find a medium between the two. And came up with this. Though in retrospect, I agree with many of the criticisms. It should be more viable in the field. Not Just a counter weapon with mild uses in regilar combat.
There are not wood, stone, gold, iron, and diamond tridents. It is just, the trident. Simplify all of these issues you have. A spear is just a spear. With damage equal to either an iron sword, or a base trident. Just with greater range, and the ability to "knockback" an enemy with a charged attack alone, no need for an enchantment.
-Again. Get rid of the tiers. Just one type of spear with unique enchantment availabilities as well as a charged attack having knockback 2. With a base attack of an iron sword or a trident.
-I like the idea of blocking movement if the crosshair is on an approaching enemy. It will be the closest to the parrying a spearmen would be capable of in real life, use the base "spam" attack to do base damage at the risk of "walking up" of another the mob, and charge to knockback. (Walking backward while charging the attack and keeping the mob on sight would still impede movement, whereas attacking would remove the movement blocking mechanic)
Thank you!
I would not have the spear block movement under any circumstance; I actually did consider it myself, and indeed compared the alternative to someone running up the spear, but letting the spear block movement in addition to having longer reach would make it a better weapon than sword and axe, period. I'd wager this would be true even if is had a lower attack speed and damage than the sword. True, you could still get swarmed, but the tactic there even with sword and axe is to back up and hit them one by one, which the reach would work wonders for. In one on one, you could quite literally keep melee mobs and creepers from touching you while hitting them back.
With my suggestion, you can do something similar, namely hit them repeatedly while they are at a distance and use the knockback to keep them there, but you have to be skilled, quick, and if you hit too late once they're out of the zone where you can effectively damage them, while they can most certainly damage you. Needing the speed and skill (plus the spear going vertical) was the compromise that kept them from being overpowered.
Regarding "walking up" the spear, I don't think it's a problem. Weapons and tools noclip into blocks and mobs all the time in minecraft, so I doubt people would think this is any different.
The spear doing minor damage would also be out unless damage doesn't do any knockback (in which case you'd have the same problem of the spear easily keeping mobs back). I'm... not completely against that. Ultimately it would come down to balancing, and I guess it would help teach how the spear works. So yeah, sure, I'm for it. But no base knockback - let's have it be like a cactus.
In general, I was thinking the tiers would have a base multiplier, or power or something like that and then round. A formula I'm happy with is speed divided by 6, 3, 2.25 and 1.75, for wood/gold, stone, iron and diamond respectively. With wood, walking does 0.7 hearts of damage, rounded to 0.5, sprinting 0.93 rounded to 1, riding an average horse does 1.5 and riding a maximum horse does 2.416, so 2.5. With stone, it's walking 1.5, sprinting 2, average horse 3 and maximum horse 5. Iron, it's walking 2, sprinting 2.5, an average horse 4 and a maximum horse 6.5. With diamond it's walking 2.5, sprinting 3, average horse 5 and maximum horse 8.
Knockback would be calculated similarly.
I like your idea, but I like the simplicity of my formula better. I think higher tier spears should be more useful on the ground as well as on horseback as opposed to lower tier ones, and just have lower tier ones "top out" means they're useless on horseback, but offer no disadvantage (besides durability) on the ground. Ground combat should really be limited to normal attacks, which is why no sprint attack in my system does more damage than a normal strike, though I guess you could "combo" by hitting then sprinting before the spear recovers. Anybody who manages this trick is welcome to it, I think.
Quite! This is another reason I like this idea so much - fast horses make for a lot of damage, the fastest horse combined with a diamond spear doing a whopping 8 hearts, or 16 hitpoints. A good elytra swoop might do similar. And that's not even considering the possibility of enchantments.
Yeeeeesssss.... I know. It's just, I've had too many times where I've left something implicit and someone missed it or misunderstood. I keep on the safe side nowadays, or try to.
Thank you. This was important for me, so I'm grateful you've accepted it so easily. The fact you are a console player explains quite a lot (this will come up somewhat often in the following replies), since you don't use the 1.8 combat system - which I had forgotten. I'll try and tailor my suggestions so they'll work for your combat system too, or offer a slight variant.
If mounted horsemen were a common threat (say, on a long existing and populated multiplayer pvp server, or if there was a common mounted mob that spawned with a spear) then you would have a good argument. If there's something common you need to counter, having a counter around would be useful. But mostly, mounted horsemen are rare, so players as a whole would generally just rely on their primary weapon (be it sword or axe), maybe include a bow, and take their chances. They wouldn't sacrifice a slot in the hotbar or even their inventory to carry around something they'll only very rarely or even never use. That would make it a dud. How many players carry around a bucket of milk, just in case they fight a witch? Practically zero - players takes their chances they'll be able to handle it without the milk, and free up an hotbar slot by doing so.
This is where we see a bit of difference - in the java edition, axes do more damage than swords (wooden axe: 7 hitpoints, wooden sword: 4). The trade off is axes use two durability each hit and recover slower; If you spam click, you do fist damage, you need to wait for the recovery bar to refill in order to do full damage. Swords have more DPS (damage per second) because they can attack faster, but axes do more damage each hit. Which you prefer depends on your playstyle. Me, I prefer the axe.
But for the console edition, we don't need to prevent the spear making the axe obsolete as a weapon, since, well, it isn't a weapon. But we do need to prevent spears from making swords less useful. To this end I think making each type of spear (yes, I know, I'll get to why I think there should be more than one later) do less damage than the sword, which it makes up for (slightly, but not really) with range. I proposed spears do 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3 hearts of damage respectively in the java edition, and I think these amounts work for the console edition too, since swords in the console edition do half a heart more damage than swords in the java edition.
Eh, eh, I see what you're getting at, but the problem is spears aren't different enough compared to the sword (on foot) to make them useful enough. Tridents and bows can hit mobs and players at a very large range, far further than the spear, and are needed often to counter skeletons and creepers, which are very common mobs. Spears (as you first proposed them) are not a big enough counter to any mob or normal player and have to weaknesses you described. Hence why people would stick to swords.
Being shot at by a skeleton isn't all that rare. But besides that, the game slowing your switching would feel unfair and artificial, especially if it gets you killed. You don't want to trap players in a Mortens Fork - either die because the spear is a bad weapon against skeletons, or die because the spear won't let you switch to a bow fast enough.
If is true, and I'll take your word for it, it's a problem. Why? Because fending off mobs shouldn't be easy, or at least not easier than with a sword. Even if it's only slightly more easier, you get the problem that spears will replace swords. And that shouldn't happen.
In which case spears won't be used in melee, since swords can be used effectively against both single enemies and crowds - a spear being incrementally better than a sword wouldn't be enough for players to sacrifice another hotbar slot, unless... unless the spear outclasses the sword enormously against single enemies, in which case you'll have players using spears, swords and bows/tridents.
But that's a problem by itself. Normal gameplay would become easier, since spears would offer a new way of dealing with mobs. And making normal gameplay easier isn't on Mojang's to-do list. They have in fact been making the game harder. They could do that again to deal with spear wielding people, but that's a whole other... thing that would like to avoid talking about here.
I've already said my piece on the problems of making the spear viable. We have swords, and we should make sure we don't replace them.
Regarding the charging mechanic - "charging" up for a really big stab isn't the least intuitive thing in the world, I suppose, but there's one big problem with charging attacks: They are very imprecise. You need a slow, or at most normally moving enemy moving in a predictable direction for you to have a chance to hit, which is true of neither players riding horses (they move too fast for you to reliably hit them before they've moved in too close and after they've come into range), nor of players facing horse-riding opponents (they would jump side to side). Just try to hit mobs while riding and using a sword now - you can spam, but you'll be sure to miss most swings. You can't spam charged attacks. So I'm completely against charged attacks on weapons made to be used on horses or against horse-riding opponents.
Great!
We do indeed.
I got that that was what it did, I just didn't see how it would be intuitive. I do now, but I have other issues with the charged attack, you you know.
I think you misunderstood. Holding the spear vertically means it is held like a staff, and points at the sky no matter where you look. Right-clicking once makes it go "horizontal", but that means it points wherever you look. You look in front of you, it points there, you look to the side, it points there, you look up, it points up, you look down, it points down, no clicking required. It follows your camera. It doesn't stay pointed in one direction unless you keep looking in that direction. No cycling of clicks needed.
You do HEMA? Cool. I've been meaning to get into that, but there's no group close to me. I do do jugger, though, have done kung fu spear fighting and watch a ton of videos on YouTube on HEMA. Spears were indeed better than swords for fighting, though I think you're underestimating the value of good footwork. Here's Lindybeige's video on the subject:
All of this is very interesting as a starting point, but we can't follow through on that entirely. Realism is good for two things: immersion, and giving players the ability to work out how things in a game work by using their already existing knowledge. It has its limits. But still, we can try to stick with it up until a point. That point is where spears would become so useful that they would replaces swords in minecraft.
If you have to try and equate minecraft's mechanics with real life, moving and doing damage with a spear would be lunging. Attacking normally with the spear (which is the primary way I would want people to attack when on the ground) would be the normal stabbing motion. moving to do damage should only become the primary method when on a horse, or while flying, since there it is too easy to miss if you had to rely on attacking normally.
I suggested one. Second to last paragraph, second line. I suggested spears can be used to attack normally if they are being held horizontally, but only at a range of three blocks.
Because we need a mechanic to reliably attack while riding a horse (and elytra, though that's the cherry on the cake). Having to attack normally would make you miss a lot. I suggested this type of attack because it's as close as I could get to what knights in the real world do: Hold their lance in the crook of their arm, charge and point the lance at the enemy. They don't also stab forward with the lance. The reason they do this is because trying to stab would make them miss, and the force behind a lance held by a charging knight on horseback is more than enough by itself.
Because we were trying to make a weapon that is uniquely suited for fighting on horseback.
I imagine a shield would be very useful against a spearman. However, since we are trying not to make swords by themselves (without a shield) less powerful than spears, we can't implement all the abilities a spear has.
Spears are awesome, I agree. Thank you for listening to my criticism. However much I may disagree with you, I very much respect someone who does that.
My last pieces of criticism for today: Tridents do indeed not have tiers. There are reasons for that, though, and it is because getting them is assumed to happen around the time people have diamonds to spare already and the ability to enchant, and to make acquiring them more interesting than just crafting them. Tridents below diamond-tier (which is what I consider the current ones to be) would be too similar to bows and arrows, not being enchanted, and having only one to spare (as opposed to multiple arrows). I'd bet good money that if wooden, stone, iron and gold tridents were introduced into the game they would mostly go unused - on land. Maybe the wooden and stone ones would get some use until the player gets a bow and some arrows, but not after. Javelins have been repeatedly rejected by Mojang for years before the trident came along, for these reasons.
But I did say on land. A lot of people don't use tridents even now, and even you admitted they were at least equal in usefulness to bows and arrows (or at least that's what I understood, pardon if I'm wrong). Where they shine is under water. There they are the weapon to use, and for good reason, since you can forget about bows and arrows. The fact they have an area where they are very useful, even if they aren't used by all players everywhere, means that they were a good addition to the game.
Spears could be implemented similarly - you could have them be found in dungeon chest along with horse armour and saddles. Have them be the weapon that shine when used while horse riding (and flying).
I don't think that's the best implementation method though. With leather horse armour becoming craftable in 1.14 java edition and saddles becoming more and more easy to get (through trading, fishing and lots of loot chests) Mojang is making riding horses easier. If players can start riding early in the game, though, you want to give them the ability to fight on horseback too - to make it even more attractive to do. But if you put spears in loot chests you have to decide if they should be early game weapons or late game. If they are early game weapons, they'll make horseriding attractive early on (at least for a while), but if you make them late game weapons you either have to make them rare, which will negate the attractiveness of fighting on horseback, or you'll make them common and give players an overpowered weapon.
I say, split the difference! I'm fine with spears not being craftable, like higher-tier horse armour, but having different tiers (with the higher ones being rarer) will make players have both early game and late game weapons for horse riding.
Edit:
Yeesh, that turned out longer than I expected. Sorry about that.
My guy...I am glad you have interacted with me. I sincerely mean that! And the more I read, the more it made sense. I agree. With much of what i have read. (I shamefully admit I started to skim. But I forced myself to look over some points again because they were quite good). Also...that video. .I am pretty sure is the one I watched that got me into spear fighting! I like Lindy Beige. HEMA is life. Well. Was. Money shortage. Atm. I did DAGhorhir in the meantime for a while. But then distance happened amd I havent been able to go recently...so I know your pain.You were correct in regards to my trident comment. In fact, I have to force myself to use the trident and really only have it with me in case I run out of arrows. I didnt even want to equip a trident until I got loyalty any way, and indeed didn't. As for some of your points;
-movement equals damage; I agree.
-above point specifically for elytra and cavalry. I tried being an angel. Using an elytra and cruising around trying to attack mobs. If I got a hit with a bow or trident I was lucky. 90% of the time I missed. Otherwise I would hit the ground trying to attack a mob.(What weapon was I using I wonder? 3 guesses. First two dont count. Lol). And you know how I feel about current cavalry combat.
-found in chests with saddles and horse armor, yes!
-rarity tiers, yes! But I would like a base craftable version. Due to the fact there have been plenty of games I was irritated about because my loot sucked. Or I set off the trap and auto save was on...and there were no other desert temples, stuff like that. I think it should be stone, gold, diamond, and iron only though. No wood.
-I think it should be early game. It doesn't usually take long to find a horse and tame it. And as I stated originally, horses are basically useless for anything other than transportation currently. And of course because of the bad range of a sword...horse armor in and of itself is basically useless. You can outrun most arrows. You can outrun ignited creepers. Definitely zombies, etc. The point of armor is for combat. And unless you have a bow and arrow, combat with a horse is pointless. And with a bow or even trident, it is slow and dull. You have to stop to aim and shoot, or go really really slow. Takes the fun out of it. Add to that the terrible sword from horse combat, and horses again are almost useless.
-there is a base attack on top of the movement, but only if on foot. I agree.
-it definitely shouldn't replace the sword
There's more I want to say, but battery at 12% will have to come back later.
I'd say the spear should be a standalone weapon, and not just a counter to the lance. I'd even make it a lot stronger than the sword (higher DPS + bigger range + block with spear, taking at least 3 durability points), seeing as how spears outclass swords in real life. On the other hand, wielding the spear should require the use of both hands, meaning that you can't place anything in your off hand if you want to use a spear.
As I have read the criticisms and points I agree. Lance and spear should be reduced to spear basically.
I agree you should be able to have that increased range and stronger attack. The range being the main reason for this suggestion to begin with. I don't think it should be too much more powerful than a sword though. Because as stated above, we dont want to replace the sword entirely.
With the spear, a tactic used against swordsman was the constant, quick, jabbing amd smacking of the opponents shield forcing them to block in many places. The idea being you tire them out, or you fake them out and sieze the opening. Either smacking their shield away and stabbing their opening, or pushing then off balance. It also served a purpose of keepong them focused more on blocking and less on attacking.
I was able to pull of some lucky blocks, and parrys with the shaft of the spear leading to that glorious grapple. But not often.
And yes. I agree that you habe to use two hands. In order to have the 2 to 3 block range (each block being about 1 meter) you would have to have an 8 to 10 feet spear. Thus needing two hands. A short spear needing one hand would have the same range as a sword, 0 to 1 block which is what I am trying to improve.
And even though it can be used on foot, ideally, it would be used on Horseback or with an Elytra. Also as agreed upon above.
Since my main gripe was the lackluster and pointless cavalry combat capabilities due to the bad range of melee weapons, I not only want this to be added to the base game (since I am a console peasent primarily and can't install MODS) to make Cavaley viable, but would likely only use it Airborne or Horseback. I would muddle with it on foot sure, but I dream of charging into the note with my nible war steed, charging all manner of hostile mob effectively, efficiently, and quickly.
An added bonus, this would probably work reallt well against pillagers (since their crossbows take longer to reload than a bow), and, Pillager beasts. I forgot their actual name already...so yeah. I may write a new suggestion post focusing on spear only and using the feedback I got here. I hear the developers hate TLDR ideas...so...short and sweet is best.
Apparently my last response didnt send. Its ok though. Short and sweet.
-yes, higher DPS and attack, but not too much. Dont want to replace the aword entirely.
-reduce lance and spear to just spear, repost as new.
-though useful on foot, suited specifically for Horseback. Increasing range to 2-3 blocks even on horse makes cavalry combat viable.
-two hands makes sense, seeing as 2-3 blocks is roughly 2-3 meters. Need a longer weapon, need two hands for stability.
-can block with spear, as parries are definitely possible with a real spear, I have experience. Limited, true, but enough.
-postulate spear and shield on horseback only. On foot, two hands meaning no shield. Or map. Or anything in off hand
That's sorted then. Thanks for responding to me!
What is? Does this mean you have no more criticisms...or that you feel I didn't listen? Or have we reached an agreement of sorts?
Oh, more or less an agreement! Sorry for the confusion. Any further criticisms on my part would just be nit-picking, I feel. I'm happy where we've gotten to.
As am I. Hopefully, whether it be through you or me, this suggestion gets to the hot topic section of Minecraft forum.
Horses as fast travel habe serbed their purpose. With new hostile mobs, especially the pillager beast, we now need viable cavalry. Like was stated. Portal travel and ice travel have rendered horses to be no more than a slower transport system.
Let us bring back their usefulness. Repurpose them in the next combat update. Let them be the fast hitting, powerful, prized animals. A reason to collect and breed them. And an actual purpose for horse armor.