We've all heard the complaints, veteran PvPers stick to their 1.7.10, claim 1.9 sucks due to introduction of attackSpeed, yada yada yada. This debate is practically a dead horse, but I'll put a summary of this in a spoiler box for those that's unaware of the controversial combat change since 1.9.
When Mojang announced 1.9 was going to be all about combat changes, this got Veteran PvPers excited, because combat hasn't been a big concern for Mojang until now. However when the 1st snapshot was released, it was quickly received with backlash, how Mojang is changing combat too much, they can't apply their skills in the new combat system. The old combat system was a simple "click to deal damage." This allows competitive players to practice "jitter-clicking" or clicking their mouse excessively to attack as frequently as possible. However the new combat system introduced an attribute called attack speed, which added a form of cooldown to swords and tools. After you swing with your weapon of choice, you now have to wait for your weapon to raise all the way up for it to deal full damage once more. Attack while the weapon isn't raised all the way, it doesn't deal as much damage. This change was a turn-off for PvPers because they couldn't apply their "jitter-click" skills into the new system. It's against everything they've built their skill on.
The negative reception was so overwhelming, not only did they receive death threats, but also eventually made a snapshot to somewhat cater to the "jitter-clickers" by allowing weapons & tools to deal 25% of their damage minimum if their weapon wasn't raised at all. What's worse is unfortunately Mojang is stemming further and further away from favoring PvP players. It evidently isn't their only player base, but they were just as dedicated as any avid builders or plugin developers.
Anyway onto the title of the thread: Bring back old combat mechanics. Despite the fact I like the new combat mechanics, I'm not implying to revert it, but rather keep it as the vanilla combat. if anything I actually like the new combat mechanic, especially how the attackSpeed can be modified to somewhat replicate old combat. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to satisfy veteran PvPers as well as other that are strongly acquainted to the old combat. Consequently this made old PvP-heavy servers hold onto 1.8 or 1.7 even to this day. If a public server wants to thrive and expand their possibilities with plugins, but this would come at the cost of losing such a huge portion of their player-base. They have to either stick to 1.8/1.7 and rely on dated plugins, or update at the risk of losing basically the entire server. It's a lose-lose scenario for these servers owners, and said owners knows this well.
Instead of trying to change or revert combat mechanics again, why not do the following:
Add more attributes for coders to use for their servers.
Such a simple idea! I'm aware it could be painstaking to do, cuz it might require the devs to dissect their engines, but I think this would pay off so much. They can especially add the following attributes:
Range - How far or short the players can attack with this item. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1.8 decreased the range of items for attacking, so this could bring even 1.7 players.
Value can be negative to attack and affect entities behind the player instead of the front.
AttackSpeed - How long it takes for the item to raise back up after attacking an entity. Can be set to 0 to disable AttackSpeed.
MinAttack - How much damage the item deals if it isn't raised. Damage will still scale based on the attack recharge.
CanBlock - A boolean value that determines whether an item can block or not. What's an old 1.7/1.8 combat without blocking? Sure we have shields, but they obstruct a large portion of our vision without resource packs. This is especially jarring for those that just doesn't bother for resource packs for gosh-knows-why.
BlockValue- How much damage blocking reduces with this item by a static number. Makes sense when the item also has CanBlock. This not only can be applied to tools & swords, but shields as well.
Value can be negative to make players take more damage blocking with this weapon.
BlockPercent - Identical to BlockValue, but uses percentage instead of a static number. Makes sense when the item also has CanBlock.
Value can be negative to make players take more damage blocking with this weapon.
AttackRate - Not to be confused with AttackSpeed, determines how many times a single entity can take damage from this item per second. Example: AttackRate of 0.5 means a single entity can take a hit from this item every two seconds, while an item with an AttackRate of 609 means they're getting destroyed by a machine gun.
Persists while item is not equipped.
Minimum value is 0 - Items with a value of 0 can only harm a single entity once.
HoldToAuto - A boolean value that determines if an item can attack entities while holding down Attack command. For the very few that likes the convenience of alpha combat.
Knockback - How far an entity is pushed if they're attacked by this item. Surprised this is only an enchantment.
Value can be negative and knock affected entities towards the user instead of away.
BowChargeRate - How many seconds it takes for this item to fully charge.
Minimum value of 0 instantly shoots.
BowPunch - How far an entity is pushed if they're attacked by the projectile summoned by this item. Surprised this is only an enchantment.
Value can be negative and knock affected entities towards the user instead of away.
Throwable - A boolean value that determines if an item can be thrown (much like snowballs.) Items with this value on will behave identical to snowballs when thrown.
ThrowCharge - How many seconds it takes for this item to fully charge.
Definitely a good idea, but would recommend making it a gamerule rather than mandatory. I think a good name would be combatVersion. If combatVersion = [version], reverts combat system to that of (version). Would make shields glitchy though. I still support bringing back old combat, but new combat has its advantages (i.e. counters KillAura).
I know that's a lot, but the major ones are Range, CanBlock (and BlockValue&Percent,) Attack Rate, HoldToAuto, and BowChargeRate. Everything else I didn't list may be somewhat redundant, primarily due to the fact plugins can already toy with these values, but it doesn't hurt to have options.
With these values, plugin developers can really attempt to re-introduce old combat mechanics and apply blocking to swords. If they're feeling REALLY nostalgic, make a PvP minigame replicating Alpha PvP mixed with some potions or shields. Wanna get crazy with PvP minigames? Make one where everyone has a 20-block reach sword that attacks ridiculously fast, or bows with aggravatingly long charge times. Want to directly compete the different combat mechanics via a KitPvP, and include kits representing different combat systems? Why not! The possibilities are endless!
The only downside to this is this CANNOT favor those that dislikes both the new combat system as well as multiplayer. It may even require Mojang to once again dissect their engine to implement these attributes (then again 1.13 is revamping the Minecraft engine.)
For those that supports this idea, you can upvote it --> Here <--
So what do you guys think? Do you think introduction of these attributes could re-introduce old combat to Minecraft without reverting the current combat system we have, and bring the best of both worlds?
To download the other ones you need to make a folder in the versions folder for minecraft and put the client and JSON file for the versions in there. They all need to be named the same aside from file extensions. Once you do that, you will be able to choose that version when making a new profile with the minecraft launcher.
Do not like PVP, but increasing the ability of players to individualize their play experience is good. Also, this would have potential application beyond PvP…
Assuming this can be done at reasonable cost so as not to divert excessive resources and implemented so as to produce no/minimal processing overhead in vanilla,
SUPPORT
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why does everything have to be so stoopid?" Harvey Pekar (from American Splendor)
WARNING: I have an extemely "grindy" playstyle; YMMV — if this doesn't seem fun to you, mine what you can from it & bin the rest.
As a 1.9-combat fan, I'm glad to see this goes the route of actually using the functionality that already exists within the game for bringing back 1.8 combat and extending it for this purpose, rather than adding a new gamerule that Mojang has to try to balance along with the normal game and that will split the community.
I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of allowing anything other than the shield to block, but I suppose we're not talking about default gameplay here.
Support for now, I guess.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
I like the idea of customizable combat. I would like to see it customizable in single player as well, for example, an adventure map that uses something like this could be pretty cool, but probably be tough to implement.
Well, I'm always for more customization, so I Support. However, I doubt this will really appease 1.8 fans, since we already have a way to revert back to the old combat system in a way, but as it is apparently too complicated, it seems nothing short of a gamerule will stop them from complaining.
Definitely a good idea, but would recommend making it a gamerule rather than mandatory. I think a good name would be combatVersion. If combatVersion = [version], reverts combat system to that of (version). Would make shields glitchy though. I still support bringing back old combat, but new combat has its advantages (i.e. counters KillAura).
What makes this clickbait? I don't see anything wrong with it.
I think it's because he thought I suggested to EXPLICITLY revert the current combat system back to 1.8/1.7, solely because of the title.
But yeah. I don't see how this thread is clickbait. Even though it's not suggesting to revert back to 1.8 combat mechanics, it's still proposing to re-introduce them via attribute modifiers.
If anything combat has been on a downward spiral since 1.6 with all the idiotic nerfs that Dinnerbone and Jeb implemented such as the regeneration and health potion nerfs, armor durability nerfs, and the nerfs you previously mentioned. They should just revert to 1.5 in the combat and enchant division with the exception of tipped arrows and shields which should also be buffed to block 80% of damage done while swords would have their original damage blocking stats, and increase the EPF to 28 to guarantee that somebody with two protection 4 pieces of armor and 2 projectile protection 4 pieces of armor are guaranteed their max protection while also giving us room for feather falling enchants to come into full effect. Also buff all armors' durability and buff tool and weapon durability on anything below diamond. I would expect it to look like diamond having 1200 durability on it's chest plate, 1100 on pants, 1000 on it's boots and helmet, iron having 800 on it's chest plate, 750 on it's pants, 700 on it's helmet and boots, and 900 on it's tools, chain would follow iron's example for durability, stone would be buffed to 500 durability, wood would be buffed to 200, and gold would have 350 on it's chest plate, 325 on pants, 300 for it's helmet and boots, and 400 for tool durability.
Personally, I don't think the new combat itself was bad, it was the lack of ability to revert it via commands (Unless you want to have armor that increases attack speed), and no real gamerules to control how it works. That's just my take on it. Also, btw people could host a 1.12.2 server, get protocol support, and then get an old combat plugin without having to stay with 1.8 plugins. So that point is a little bit wrong about "server owners needing to hold on to 1.8/1.7".
We've all heard the complaints, veteran PvPers stick to their 1.7.10, claim 1.9 sucks due to introduction of attackSpeed, yada yada yada. This debate is practically a dead horse, but I'll put a summary of this in a spoiler box for those that's unaware of the controversial combat change since 1.9.
When Mojang announced 1.9 was going to be all about combat changes, this got Veteran PvPers excited, because combat hasn't been a big concern for Mojang until now. However when the 1st snapshot was released, it was quickly received with backlash, how Mojang is changing combat too much, they can't apply their skills in the new combat system. The old combat system was a simple "click to deal damage." This allows competitive players to practice "jitter-clicking" or clicking their mouse excessively to attack as frequently as possible. However the new combat system introduced an attribute called attack speed, which added a form of cooldown to swords and tools. After you swing with your weapon of choice, you now have to wait for your weapon to raise all the way up for it to deal full damage once more. Attack while the weapon isn't raised all the way, it doesn't deal as much damage. This change was a turn-off for PvPers because they couldn't apply their "jitter-click" skills into the new system. It's against everything they've built their skill on.
The negative reception was so overwhelming, not only did they receive death threats, but also eventually made a snapshot to somewhat cater to the "jitter-clickers" by allowing weapons & tools to deal 25% of their damage minimum if their weapon wasn't raised at all. What's worse is unfortunately Mojang is stemming further and further away from favoring PvP players. It evidently isn't their only player base, but they were just as dedicated as any avid builders or plugin developers.
Anyway onto the title of the thread: Bring back old combat mechanics. Despite the fact I like the new combat mechanics, I'm not implying to revert it, but rather keep it as the vanilla combat. if anything I actually like the new combat mechanic, especially how the attackSpeed can be modified to somewhat replicate old combat. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to satisfy veteran PvPers as well as other that are strongly acquainted to the old combat. Consequently this made old PvP-heavy servers hold onto 1.8 or 1.7 even to this day. If a public server wants to thrive and expand their possibilities with plugins, but this would come at the cost of losing such a huge portion of their player-base. They have to either stick to 1.8/1.7 and rely on dated plugins, or update at the risk of losing basically the entire server. It's a lose-lose scenario for these servers owners, and said owners knows this well.
Instead of trying to change or revert combat mechanics again, why not do the following:
Add more attributes for coders to use for their servers.
Such a simple idea! I'm aware it could be painstaking to do, cuz it might require the devs to dissect their engines, but I think this would pay off so much. They can especially add the following attributes:
Community Suggestions:
I know that's a lot, but the major ones are Range, CanBlock (and BlockValue&Percent,) Attack Rate, HoldToAuto, and BowChargeRate. Everything else I didn't list may be somewhat redundant, primarily due to the fact plugins can already toy with these values, but it doesn't hurt to have options.
With these values, plugin developers can really attempt to re-introduce old combat mechanics and apply blocking to swords. If they're feeling REALLY nostalgic, make a PvP minigame replicating Alpha PvP mixed with some potions or shields. Wanna get crazy with PvP minigames? Make one where everyone has a 20-block reach sword that attacks ridiculously fast, or bows with aggravatingly long charge times. Want to directly compete the different combat mechanics via a KitPvP, and include kits representing different combat systems? Why not! The possibilities are endless!
The only downside to this is this CANNOT favor those that dislikes both the new combat system as well as multiplayer. It may even require Mojang to once again dissect their engine to implement these attributes (then again 1.13 is revamping the Minecraft engine.)
For those that supports this idea, you can upvote it --> Here <--
So what do you guys think? Do you think introduction of these attributes could re-introduce old combat to Minecraft without reverting the current combat system we have, and bring the best of both worlds?
You got my full support just by the title, but when reading the actual suggestion, you got 50% more.
150% SUPPORT
Remember those versions that minecraft pranked us with? Specifically:
Those are still downloadable! Watch this video for 2.0:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQdu9LKAdIU
To download the other ones you need to make a folder in the versions folder for minecraft and put the client and JSON file for the versions in there. They all need to be named the same aside from file extensions. Once you do that, you will be able to choose that version when making a new profile with the minecraft launcher.
15w14a is on this link:
http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/15w14a
1.RV-Pre1 is here:
http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/1.RV-Pre1
Minecraft 3D is here:
https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Java_Edition_3D_Shareware_v1.34
I thought this was going to be yet another whine-fest about how 1.9 combat is horrible and evil. I am glad to be proven wrong.
This seems sensible. Support.
That should be implemented, as this could open new ways of PvP for servers and maps.
i don't play pvp anyways and not even the latest version ut sure support
also i really doubt mojang reads this at all
Do not like PVP, but increasing the ability of players to individualize their play experience is good. Also, this would have potential application beyond PvP…
Assuming this can be done at reasonable cost so as not to divert excessive resources and implemented so as to produce no/minimal processing overhead in vanilla,
SUPPORT
Glad to see people aren't jumping the gun so far. Really glad to see the positive feedback.
If you don't have any insight, simply refrain from posting...
This is a discussion, not a 'Dear Mojang' website.
^What this guy said, though I do kinda wish this was a "Dear Mojang" post, but again there's countless other visitors.
As a 1.9-combat fan, I'm glad to see this goes the route of actually using the functionality that already exists within the game for bringing back 1.8 combat and extending it for this purpose, rather than adding a new gamerule that Mojang has to try to balance along with the normal game and that will split the community.
I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of allowing anything other than the shield to block, but I suppose we're not talking about default gameplay here.
Support for now, I guess.
My avatar is a texture from a small block game I made in Python. It's not very good and it probably won't work if you install it.
I'm very alone in my Minecraft worlds as I don't have a very good internet connection to run a server. If you're like me, you might be interested in my Posse mod suggestion.
I haven't played minecraft in a while but the changes that they made seem so unnecessary and it makes me sad to hear
Want Your Server Reviewed? Send me a message or leave a comment at Youtube.com/wegie125
I like the idea of customizable combat. I would like to see it customizable in single player as well, for example, an adventure map that uses something like this could be pretty cool, but probably be tough to implement.
I support
Well, I'm always for more customization, so I Support. However, I doubt this will really appease 1.8 fans, since we already have a way to revert back to the old combat system in a way, but as it is apparently too complicated, it seems nothing short of a gamerule will stop them from complaining.
Want to see my suggestions? Here they are!
I am also known as GameWyrm or GameWyrm97. You can also find me at snapshotmc.com
Definitely a good idea, but would recommend making it a gamerule rather than mandatory. I think a good name would be combatVersion. If combatVersion = [version], reverts combat system to that of (version). Would make shields glitchy though. I still support bringing back old combat, but new combat has its advantages (i.e. counters KillAura).
I bet there is at least person who goes around this forum and uploads the suggestions to the reddit.
clickbait, but cool ideas
What makes this clickbait? I don't see anything wrong with it.
Cool stuffs in spoiler
I think it's because he thought I suggested to EXPLICITLY revert the current combat system back to 1.8/1.7, solely because of the title.
But yeah. I don't see how this thread is clickbait. Even though it's not suggesting to revert back to 1.8 combat mechanics, it's still proposing to re-introduce them via attribute modifiers.
If anything combat has been on a downward spiral since 1.6 with all the idiotic nerfs that Dinnerbone and Jeb implemented such as the regeneration and health potion nerfs, armor durability nerfs, and the nerfs you previously mentioned. They should just revert to 1.5 in the combat and enchant division with the exception of tipped arrows and shields which should also be buffed to block 80% of damage done while swords would have their original damage blocking stats, and increase the EPF to 28 to guarantee that somebody with two protection 4 pieces of armor and 2 projectile protection 4 pieces of armor are guaranteed their max protection while also giving us room for feather falling enchants to come into full effect. Also buff all armors' durability and buff tool and weapon durability on anything below diamond. I would expect it to look like diamond having 1200 durability on it's chest plate, 1100 on pants, 1000 on it's boots and helmet, iron having 800 on it's chest plate, 750 on it's pants, 700 on it's helmet and boots, and 900 on it's tools, chain would follow iron's example for durability, stone would be buffed to 500 durability, wood would be buffed to 200, and gold would have 350 on it's chest plate, 325 on pants, 300 for it's helmet and boots, and 400 for tool durability.
Personally, I don't think the new combat itself was bad, it was the lack of ability to revert it via commands (Unless you want to have armor that increases attack speed), and no real gamerules to control how it works. That's just my take on it. Also, btw people could host a 1.12.2 server, get protocol support, and then get an old combat plugin without having to stay with 1.8 plugins. So that point is a little bit wrong about "server owners needing to hold on to 1.8/1.7".