The major issue with what I present is compounded with what mastermined stated.
Having a general outline is great; but since you have mobs, ores, biomes, mechanics, redstone devices, commands, etc. it gets really difficult to meaningfully detail all of them. So we have to regress a bit before that.
"Is there content to be discussed" feels great; but that has a lot of gray where some would say "yes" and others would say "no", so a minimum standard on what is enough content is a good place to start.
The grey area around if there is content to be discussed is a large part of why the vague thread rule was removed. If anything, vague threads get more discussion because it prompts more questions. If you say "I want a new ghost mob" people can say "how much HP does it have, what damage can it do, how does it spawn, drops, etc.". When all that is laid out already people are more likely to just treat it like it cannot be changed. That is my experience anyways, although I still think it is better to include as much information as possible at the beginning.
I do think a lot of time and discussion in this thread is being wasted "chasing ghosts", so to speak. I had noticed this before and was going to make mention of it but it has since turned back to a more fruitful discussion. I will say this, the comments accusing specific users of being alts and trolls is almost entirely unfounded for this section. I'm actually genuinely curious as to which specific users and why people think that, so if anyone wants to send me a PM on it they are free to, but that discussion should not be posted here or any public part of the forum.
Mostly I'm just curious as to why general users who don't have any access to checking IP addresses, full post history, warning records, or any of the things that staff have think that we don't check into any of that if we see something truly suspicious. We can and we do and normally we don't find anything (if we do action is taken). This means one of two things that I can think of.
One: that we have a gang of super-trolls using VPN services or changing IP's to avoid detection that are all simultaneously targeting this specific section of the forums for... Reasons
Two: it means we have some suspicious users who haven't done anything really warranting digging really deep into their information, and that a vast majority of the users on the forums represent Minecraft's core age group (something like 8 to 16 iirc), which is largely a group of people whose entire thought process for a suggestion is often "I think X is cool and I like Minecraft, woah wouldn't it be cool if X was in Minecraft?" Not everyone is like that obviously, but I'm more than willing to believe that than the alternative though we continue to look into things we find suspect.
Also as an update we did find that people can edit polls after creating them. This is not intentional and the site administrators are aware of it. It will be fixed but that may take time. Changing poll answers to mislead people is considered trolling and is something that we will handle. That said as far as I am aware there is no way to tell if a poll has been edited as far as looking on the backend (asking about that to be sure) so we are looking for ways to monitor that kind of thing.
Personally I just don't vote in polls because 90% of the time they are made incorrectly (yes/no question that lets you pick both answers), are filled with pointless silly answers that skew results, and because I can be more constructive by posting what I like or dislike about the idea, and that can't be edited by others.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
I made quite clear in my post that bad suggestions still exist. Unpinning the old thread was just one step.
Sadly that step wasn't up or down because I don't see that changing anything.
I think I made quite clear the specific issue of the old thread vs this one has nothing to do with whether people are reading it and everything to do with if people are learning from what they're reading. Which they don't do in a super long guide which also makes them feel like trash. I know you'll say it's just 'too real' and whatnot, but that doesn't solve the problem.
The guide could have had all the content it had without the sass and I would still think the same of it. The only thing I didn't like was the format of the "inferior suggestions" list because that would give people the "you can't post this idea so don't try (angry face)!" but other than that, it hit every point and described them well. In fact, it was the only guide I read more than once because of how interesting it was. Every other guide is a server MOTD.
Yoshi's critics guide was just as good, because it didn't just quickly go "make a good post instead of bad ones, pass it on."
You can't denounce every thread you don't like as a joke.
You're twisting my words a bit. I can accept that not every suggestion will be covered in glitter, that's fine. But if I see "Hey Notch!! I suggest nuke creepers, they're more common than normal creepers annnd they delete ur world upon explode! support because my brain is smart!" Guess what I'm going to think of that?
I'm glad you think it's their fault, but sitting on a high horse and blaming them doesn't solve the problem. I'm trying to tell you why this thread can in the future solve the exact problems you're complaining about, and you're retorting with "it's their fault their posts are bad anyway."
Frankly, I'm not concerned with whose fault you think it is. I'm telling you a solution, you're just pointing fingers.
I didn't think the guide was all that bad. I do agree that a few of the examples were a bit too angry just to prove a small point, but that wasn't enough for me to disregard a guide. I don't mean to speak for everyone, but there is only so much you can blame on a guide before you take someone's posting habits into account. I could name 10 people instantly who read this guide but still made crap threads because they thought they knew everything.
Sadly that step wasn't up or down because I don't see that changing anything.
If you are completely unwilling to at least attempt to understand my reasoning as to why this is a step in the right direction, I don't know what to tell you. I've given my explanation, you can't denounce it with "but I still see bad threads".
You always will. You're telling me it's not better better yet - that's the point. This is a multiple step process. There is no quick fix. You're looking for immediate changes and you won't find them.
The guide could have had all the content it had without the sass and I would still think the same of it. The only thing I didn't like was the format of the "inferior suggestions" list because that would give people the "you can't post this idea so don't try (angry face)!" but other than that, it hit every point and described them well. In fact, it was the only guide I read more than once because of how interesting it was. Every other guide is a server MOTD.
I'm glad you think so.
But it's not relevant in the slightest. It has no bearing on this discussion because we're talking about its effect on the community as a whole. I'm telling you how the newbies see it. I don't care that you as one critic think it's a really good guide. You aren't seeing it through their eyes. This is what I'm trying to explain. This isn't about whether they should or shouldn't be more like you. I'm trying to ground myself in reality here and explain that this is how it is and we need to design guides in such a way that new posters will actually learn something. Whether you think it's their fault they're not learning anything or not means zero.
You're twisting my words a bit. I can accept that not every suggestion will be covered in glitter, that's fine. But if I see "Hey Notch!! I suggest nuke creepers, they're more common than normal creepers annnd they delete ur world upon explode! support because my brain is smart!" Guess what I'm going to think of that?
Instead of making me guess, can you make a point?
I didn't think the guide was all that bad. I do agree that a few of the examples were a bit too angry just to prove a small point, but that wasn't enough for me to disregard a guide. I don't mean to speak for everyone, but there is only so much you can blame on a guide before you take someone's posting habits into account. I could name 10 people instantly who read this guide but still made crap threads because they thought they knew everything.
Again, and I'm starting to feel like a broken record here, your personal opinion on the old guide is largely irrelevant. People read the old guides and still made bad threads too - I'm trying to explain to you why this thread is a step in a better direction, and you're completely denouncing the entire argument because right now it isn't as good as the old thread. My answer to that?
Obviously.
The thread is brand new and instead of constructive discussion most of these six pages have been complaining about how the old guide was so much better. I'm explaining to you why this guide is better on the level of design philosophy. I'm not saying it's literally better in every way. This is why all of your comments on how there are still bad threads are unhelpful. I'm simply saying the basic design and goals are better. That's why I reiterate that this is not an immediate process that is going to suddenly cure the section. Yet still you tell me "but I still see bad threads!"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
If you are completely unwilling to at least attempt to understand my reasoning as to why this is a step in the right direction, I don't know what to tell you. I've given my explanation, you can't denounce it with "but I still see bad threads".
You always will. You're telling me it's not better better yet - that's the point. This is a multiple step process. There is no quick fix. You're looking for immediate changes and you won't find them.
You said the last guide "fundamentally failed it's purpose". Then you said that guide wasn't built on the notion of the target audience while this one is. If that's true, the last guide wouldn't even get to exist at all, since that guide actually was mod-approved. Whether people agreed with that guide or not, Theriasis wasn't just talking to herself.
I'm not looking for a "quick fix". I've never seen a forum change its ways because a guide was replaced. That's only a fraction of the battle. The posters themselves still need to take time and think out their own suggestions instead of getting bubbly and excited because they think they hit a mental jackpot because they actually think they're the first person to ever suggest a Herobrine gamemode. I'm not trying to put all the blame on the posters, but this is the dumb road a lot of them take.
This isn't about whether they should or shouldn't be more like you. I'm trying to ground myself in reality here and explain that this is how it is and we need to design guides in such a way that new posters will actually learn something. Whether you think it's their fault they're not learning anything or not means zero.
I don't see myself as one of the critics. Whether or not the new blood here reads this guide or the last one, it's still the same. Both guides tell you to search before posting, to be detailed, etc. If you go off in your own universe and make a 5 word post about wanting more types of diamonds. That is on you, not the guides. If you make a well made thread but the idea isn't a home run, that's respectable, not every idea is a perfect 10.
Instead of making me guess, can you make a point?
The point was already made... Some terrible threads are so obviously a joke that it hurts. You flat out said "not every thread you don't like is a joke", which wasn't my point...
I'm not saying it's literally better in every way. This is why all of your comments on how there are still bad threads are unhelpful. I'm simply saying the basic design and goals are better. That's why I reiterate that this is not an immediate process that is going to suddenly cure the section. Yet still you tell me "but I still see bad threads!"
I think a guide that's more detail oriented is more helpful rather than a really quick and formal one. Though I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter anymore, as the old guide isn't coming back (and doesn't really need to).
You can't denounce every thread you don't like as a joke.
What's funny is there's 2 or 3 joke threads sitting on the front page right now... It's not about not liking these threads, it's about these posters having the subtlety of a clown on fire.
What's funny is there's 2 or 3 joke threads sitting on the front page right now... It's not about not liking these threads, it's about these posters having the subtlety of a clown on fire.
I will admit that some threads look like troll threads, but you have to understand, there truly are people who would enjoy things like guns, cars, whatever usually-thought-to-be joke things in Minecraft. I mean, look at all the popular gun and car mods. There are some threads I initially think are joke threads, but you kind of have to pick the lesser evil. What if the user actually thinks it'd be cool for robots driving race cars with laser guns and 400 health to be added to the game? Yeah it sounds insane, but to someone else it can have a sort of appeal.
It leaves a lot of gray area I feel the mods go through and are trying to explain to us. Sure we perceive them as joke threads, but what if the joke threads are actually serious? You can't exactly just go banning and warning without solid evidence that it's joking. Saying "It sounded really stupid" isn't exactly evidence either. That wouldn't hold up anywhere.
Unfortunately that means the quality of the forums seems lower for us, but to allow everyone their freedom to post their ideas in a suggestions forums is pretty much the most important part of the forums. Limiting people because their ideas sound dumb isn't exactly right.
The best thing to do about the forum quality is to improve as much of it as we can ourselves. Not really talking about min-modding, making up rules for quality, etc. Just do your part and use the forums as a forum. If you think a thread is a joke thread (or breaking any rules in general), don't bump it back to the top repeating the same argument 26 other people already made, which I see happen insanely often. Report and move on. Perhaps try to come up with some neat suggestions yourself, or put a bit of worthwhile discussions in other ideas.
The quality of a forum usually is significantly community driven, and if you want it to improve, we'd need to set a better example than posting on threads we think are joke threads to mock it with the same exact phrase 27 times then going somewhere else and start complaining about how there are so many joke threads.
You said the last guide "fundamentally failed it's purpose". Then you said that guide wasn't built on the notion of the target audience while this one is. If that's true, the last guide wouldn't even get to exist at all, since that guide actually was mod-approved. Whether people agreed with that guide or not, Theriasis wasn't just talking to herself.
I'm not looking for a "quick fix". I've never seen a forum change its ways because a guide was replaced. That's only a fraction of the battle.
That's what I said.
The posters themselves still need to take time and think out their own suggestions instead of getting bubbly and excited because they think they hit a mental jackpot because they actually think they're the first person to ever suggest a Herobrine gamemode. I'm not trying to put all the blame on the posters, but this is the dumb road a lot of them take.
Clearly, but we can't stop these things without making the mod team super authoritarian. We need to do what we can to improve the quality of suggestions, and I think it's best to start with the less intrusive ideas. A lot of these people read the old guide and decided the tone put them off - this is veritably true, you can find these people.
I don't see myself as one of the critics. Whether or not the new blood here reads this guide or the last one, it's still the same. Both guides tell you to search before posting, to be detailed, etc. If you go off in your own universe and make a 5 word post about wanting more types of diamonds. That is on you, not the guides. If you make a well made thread but the idea isn't a home run, that's respectable, not every idea is a perfect 10.
I'm entirely convinced now you're not listening. Some people try to read the guides, but the last one was off-putting due to either tone or length. This one isn't. How is that the same? How is that not a tangible improvement?
The point was already made... Some terrible threads are so obviously a joke that it hurts. You flat out said "not every thread you don't like is a joke", which wasn't my point...
Frankly, I don't believe you. I don't believe for a second that the forum has a joke thread problem. I even looked, one thread on the front page was locked after OP clearly stated it was a joke.
You say these threads are so obviously jokes, yet you haven't shown me any. Have you ever actually been 9? Because that makes you post weird things.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
I will admit that some threads look like troll threads, but you have to understand, there truly are people who would enjoy things like guns, cars, whatever usually-thought-to-be joke things in Minecraft.
I know a joke thread when I see one, and I don't label all bad threads to be a joke. It's not always about the suggestion, it's about reading between the lines and observing how they post. Also, if someone makes a thread so stupid that it can almost be considered a joke, it doesn't give you the right to just troll call or flamebait them, but it's still something the poster brings on himself. You shouldn't get all frazzled that your idea bombed when you could have searched for a hundred of the same threads that got crushed into dust. If it's an idea that would be hard to search for, I can forgive that.
It leaves a lot of gray area I feel the mods go through and are trying to explain to us. Sure we perceive them as joke threads, but what if the joke threads are actually serious? You can't exactly just go banning and warning without solid evidence that it's joking. Saying "It sounded really stupid" isn't exactly evidence either. That wouldn't hold up anywhere.
As much as I'd love dumb threads to just vanish, that wouldn't make the forum that much better. There does need to be quality control, but I don't want all bad threads to be locked and punched in the head. If I saw "My super serious thread is about ender creepers. They have 1000000 health! My brain is smart." I'd never give these threads time to be seen if I was a mod...
There's one user in particular (which I can't call out) who intentionally gives himself away and nothing ever happens to him because he knows nothing will.
Unfortunately that means the quality of the forums seems lower for us, but to allow everyone their freedom to post their ideas in a suggestions forums is pretty much the most important part of the forums. Limiting people because their ideas sound dumb isn't exactly right.
It isn't. But going "be free and have fun with it" doesn't mean all is well. You don't have to take suggestions that seriously, but don't call the entire forum "a bunch of haters >={" because you didn't take the time to think about what you were talking about.
If you think a thread is a joke thread (or breaking any rules in general), don't bump it back to the top repeating the same argument 26 other people already made, which I see happen insanely often. Report and move on. Perhaps try to come up with some neat suggestions yourself, or put a bit of worthwhile discussions in other ideas.
I agree with this 300%, if only we can convince more people to not be so gullible and not go on a bump-for-the-last-word! frenzy.
The quality of a forum usually is significantly community driven, and if you want it to improve, we'd need to set a better example than posting on threads we think are joke threads to mock it with the same exact phrase 27 times then going somewhere else and start complaining about how there are so many joke threads.
The bigger problem is people feeding into them and giving these people more attention. This guide should also mention how this forum isn't for you to rage-rant just because you don't like 1.9 combat.
I know we can both go through the threads list right now and pick out a few posters that are pretty much trolls. The issue is there's still a gray area. If there's a what if, it's a gray area. It's not exactly right, because that's how loopholes occur, but going around all ban happy on those ideas without removing that gray area isn't right either.
That's what I mean when I say we have to pick the lesser evil and give the benefit of the doubt to the poster. It's not our forums to say otherwise, unfortunately. If I had my own forums I ran, I'd check some of those ideas off as joke threads, but it's not mine. And whether we like it or not, we must follow the way these forums call judgement.
It's kind of like the whole "The customer is always right" dealio. Most of the time they're probably wrong, but it's not our job to say otherwise, and in most cases we'd get fired because the higher ups just don't want to deal with the little fits the customer would throw if they didn't get their way. Yeah, it's not exactly right, and yeah, it does allow for some abuse and loopholes around rules, but it keeps both the customers and the business safe.
If anything, I feel troll threads are the least of our issues. I mean, yeah bumping them is an issue, but it's really a matter of just looking down to the next idea. Sure, when I see a troll thread bumped it gives me a brief moment of "Why would you do that?" but then it's gone. I do other things, I read other threads. And honestly, the whole people repeating used arguments irritates me more than the threads themselves.
I think the best solution to all of this is to add a "Block thread" option. Or if it doesn't already, blocking users hides threads made by them too. This works out for everyone because if after you report a troll thread and it was decided it wasn't, you can just hide the thread. Out of mind out of sight.
I think the best solution to all of this is to add a "Block thread" option. Or if it doesn't already, blocking users hides threads made by them too. This works out for everyone because if after you report a troll thread and it was decided it wasn't, you can just hide the thread. Out of mind out of sight.
I hope this gets implemented like right now. That would be perfect. No having to see cancerous titles like "Flawless New Creeper (Hold on not what you think!!!)" No more having to see the threads keep hitting the top of page 1 because the gullibles keep bump bump bumping it without hope of rest. Bonus points if it blocks threads with selected words. Meaning any thread with so much as the word "thirst" goes on my nope list.
P.S.: Guys, don't bump bad threads with repeated arguments. Thanks.
That can certainly be suggested as an improvement (unsure if blocking a user blocks their threads as of now), but I doubt it would allow blocking of anything containing a specified word as blocking "gun" could block threads about guns here, but could also block gunk, outgun, begun, burgundy, gunpowder, etc. And yes you could make so it finds exact matches only, but then you would see guns, handgun, shotgun, speargun, etc. That is the problem with word filters: it will always filter too much or not enough, usually it does both at the same time.
I understand that many people want moderators to be more aggressive, but I don't think it is going to happen. We always want to err on the side of caution because more often than not we are dealing with misguided people who are entirely serious, just a bit too young to think bigger picture. This is in many ways a customer service environment, and going overboard with something like that is often more damaging than having a small group take advantage of our leniency (and again, my offer to PM me people you think are outright trolls always stands, and I will look into them personally). After all, if Wal-Mart started employing armed security to shake down anyone looking slightly suspicious just because some people shoplift, they would be out of business rather quickly. It is a perfect example of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
That said, the discussion is starting to get too far off topic, which is to improve this list of guidelines. Suggestions for general improvements to the forum should go in the Forum Discussion and Info section.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
I do think a few always-fail arguments should be mentioned...
- "I know my idea is bad, mojang will make it good, don't worry! =]"
- "It's optional so if you hate u can turn it off."
- "Idea is good because realistic!!"
- "I left this blank so you guys can finish it for me! bye!"
- "My idea is- uh oh gonna be late for school. *is never seen again*
Also, should mention not to bump your own thread or make a banner for it if it's hit with 'no support'. Otherwise you're just bringing more negative attention to your stuff.
I do think a few always-fail arguments should be mentioned...
- "I know my idea is bad, mojang will make it good, don't worry! =]"
This seems to be another one of those things that people seem to treat like it happens all the time, when really it happens very rarely. While I agree that people should try to make their idea as good as possible, this example in particular I don't think happens enough to warrant a direct response.
- "It's optional so if you hate u can turn it off."
- "Idea is good because realistic!!"
These two I am sure we can work into something, they both occur often enough and are both kind of the antithesis of good game design.
- "I left this blank so you guys can finish it for me! bye!"
This fits into the "vague" thing, and is for the most part okay. We don't expect people to post every single minute little detail about an idea and asking the critics for feedback on particular sections/details is not only allowed, it is encouraged. Idea farming, like saying "post what you think should be in the game!" is not allowed.
- "My idea is- uh oh gonna be late for school. *is never seen again*
If a thread has no information because they make a "temp post" or something like that can be reported and we will take action as needed, as that can be considered as spam. And if they have some information but not really enough to discuss and they stop posting, at that point just let the thread die. People move on to other things or forget about their thread, it happens.
Also, should mention not to bump your own thread or make a banner for it if it's hit with 'no support'. Otherwise you're just bringing more negative attention to your stuff.
Bumping is already against the rules and they can make a banner if they want to regardless of the reception of the idea. The banner is for people who like the idea to put it in their signature to promote it. If nobody likes the idea, nobody uses the banner, so the promotion doesn't happen.
I'm not too sure on these things but we can discuss it. Here are my initial reactions in bold.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
Something else I think should be added to the criticizing section: Don't get technical unless you are a programmer. In other words, don't use excuses like "LAAAAAAAG," "too hard to code," or "they would have to rewrite the game to add this" without some supporting details to prove your statements.
Something else I think should be added to the criticizing section: Don't get technical unless you are a programmer. In other words, don't use excuses like "LAAAAAAAG," "too hard to code," or "they would have to rewrite the game to add this" without some supporting details to prove your statements.
Not sure about this specific wording, it seems to be promoting arguments for authority. I agree with what you're actually saying - supporting evidence is key. I simply mean to say that adding "unless you're a programmer" creates the wrong idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
I'd have to agree with Gamelord on the specifics. So, it's more of a diction thing here.
"Don't get technical unless you have a technical or logical background" gets more traction methinks.
You don't have to be a programmer to see how some suggestions would fail logical scrutiny. A suggestion like raytraced light is great (portable torch) but a logical position can state how lag would be created or exacerbated on slower already lagging hardware.
Not sure about this specific wording, it seems to be promoting arguments for authority. I agree with what you're actually saying - supporting evidence is key. I simply mean to say that adding "unless you're a programmer" creates the wrong idea.
I'd have to agree with Gamelord on the specifics. So, it's more of a diction thing here.
"Don't get technical unless you have a technical or logical background" gets more traction methinks.
You don't have to be a programmer to see how some suggestions would fail logical scrutiny. A suggestion like raytraced light is great (portable torch) but a logical position can state how lag would be created or exacerbated on slower already lagging hardware.
Well, that does sound better. I figured that if Badprenup added it, he would change it anyway, so I just picked something short and sweet.
The major issue with what I present is compounded with what mastermined stated.
Having a general outline is great; but since you have mobs, ores, biomes, mechanics, redstone devices, commands, etc. it gets really difficult to meaningfully detail all of them. So we have to regress a bit before that.
"Is there content to be discussed" feels great; but that has a lot of gray where some would say "yes" and others would say "no", so a minimum standard on what is enough content is a good place to start.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
The grey area around if there is content to be discussed is a large part of why the vague thread rule was removed. If anything, vague threads get more discussion because it prompts more questions. If you say "I want a new ghost mob" people can say "how much HP does it have, what damage can it do, how does it spawn, drops, etc.". When all that is laid out already people are more likely to just treat it like it cannot be changed. That is my experience anyways, although I still think it is better to include as much information as possible at the beginning.
I do think a lot of time and discussion in this thread is being wasted "chasing ghosts", so to speak. I had noticed this before and was going to make mention of it but it has since turned back to a more fruitful discussion. I will say this, the comments accusing specific users of being alts and trolls is almost entirely unfounded for this section. I'm actually genuinely curious as to which specific users and why people think that, so if anyone wants to send me a PM on it they are free to, but that discussion should not be posted here or any public part of the forum.
Mostly I'm just curious as to why general users who don't have any access to checking IP addresses, full post history, warning records, or any of the things that staff have think that we don't check into any of that if we see something truly suspicious. We can and we do and normally we don't find anything (if we do action is taken). This means one of two things that I can think of.
One: that we have a gang of super-trolls using VPN services or changing IP's to avoid detection that are all simultaneously targeting this specific section of the forums for... Reasons
Two: it means we have some suspicious users who haven't done anything really warranting digging really deep into their information, and that a vast majority of the users on the forums represent Minecraft's core age group (something like 8 to 16 iirc), which is largely a group of people whose entire thought process for a suggestion is often "I think X is cool and I like Minecraft, woah wouldn't it be cool if X was in Minecraft?" Not everyone is like that obviously, but I'm more than willing to believe that than the alternative though we continue to look into things we find suspect.
Also as an update we did find that people can edit polls after creating them. This is not intentional and the site administrators are aware of it. It will be fixed but that may take time. Changing poll answers to mislead people is considered trolling and is something that we will handle. That said as far as I am aware there is no way to tell if a poll has been edited as far as looking on the backend (asking about that to be sure) so we are looking for ways to monitor that kind of thing.
Personally I just don't vote in polls because 90% of the time they are made incorrectly (yes/no question that lets you pick both answers), are filled with pointless silly answers that skew results, and because I can be more constructive by posting what I like or dislike about the idea, and that can't be edited by others.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
Sadly that step wasn't up or down because I don't see that changing anything.
The guide could have had all the content it had without the sass and I would still think the same of it. The only thing I didn't like was the format of the "inferior suggestions" list because that would give people the "you can't post this idea so don't try (angry face)!" but other than that, it hit every point and described them well. In fact, it was the only guide I read more than once because of how interesting it was. Every other guide is a server MOTD.
Yoshi's critics guide was just as good, because it didn't just quickly go "make a good post instead of bad ones, pass it on."
You're twisting my words a bit. I can accept that not every suggestion will be covered in glitter, that's fine. But if I see "Hey Notch!! I suggest nuke creepers, they're more common than normal creepers annnd they delete ur world upon explode! support because my brain is smart!" Guess what I'm going to think of that?
I didn't think the guide was all that bad. I do agree that a few of the examples were a bit too angry just to prove a small point, but that wasn't enough for me to disregard a guide. I don't mean to speak for everyone, but there is only so much you can blame on a guide before you take someone's posting habits into account. I could name 10 people instantly who read this guide but still made crap threads because they thought they knew everything.
If you are completely unwilling to at least attempt to understand my reasoning as to why this is a step in the right direction, I don't know what to tell you. I've given my explanation, you can't denounce it with "but I still see bad threads".
You always will. You're telling me it's not better better yet - that's the point. This is a multiple step process. There is no quick fix. You're looking for immediate changes and you won't find them.
I'm glad you think so.
But it's not relevant in the slightest. It has no bearing on this discussion because we're talking about its effect on the community as a whole. I'm telling you how the newbies see it. I don't care that you as one critic think it's a really good guide. You aren't seeing it through their eyes. This is what I'm trying to explain. This isn't about whether they should or shouldn't be more like you. I'm trying to ground myself in reality here and explain that this is how it is and we need to design guides in such a way that new posters will actually learn something. Whether you think it's their fault they're not learning anything or not means zero.
Instead of making me guess, can you make a point?
Again, and I'm starting to feel like a broken record here, your personal opinion on the old guide is largely irrelevant. People read the old guides and still made bad threads too - I'm trying to explain to you why this thread is a step in a better direction, and you're completely denouncing the entire argument because right now it isn't as good as the old thread. My answer to that?
Obviously.
The thread is brand new and instead of constructive discussion most of these six pages have been complaining about how the old guide was so much better. I'm explaining to you why this guide is better on the level of design philosophy. I'm not saying it's literally better in every way. This is why all of your comments on how there are still bad threads are unhelpful. I'm simply saying the basic design and goals are better. That's why I reiterate that this is not an immediate process that is going to suddenly cure the section. Yet still you tell me "but I still see bad threads!"
You said the last guide "fundamentally failed it's purpose". Then you said that guide wasn't built on the notion of the target audience while this one is. If that's true, the last guide wouldn't even get to exist at all, since that guide actually was mod-approved. Whether people agreed with that guide or not, Theriasis wasn't just talking to herself.
I'm not looking for a "quick fix". I've never seen a forum change its ways because a guide was replaced. That's only a fraction of the battle. The posters themselves still need to take time and think out their own suggestions instead of getting bubbly and excited because they think they hit a mental jackpot because they actually think they're the first person to ever suggest a Herobrine gamemode. I'm not trying to put all the blame on the posters, but this is the dumb road a lot of them take.
I don't see myself as one of the critics. Whether or not the new blood here reads this guide or the last one, it's still the same. Both guides tell you to search before posting, to be detailed, etc. If you go off in your own universe and make a 5 word post about wanting more types of diamonds. That is on you, not the guides. If you make a well made thread but the idea isn't a home run, that's respectable, not every idea is a perfect 10.
The point was already made... Some terrible threads are so obviously a joke that it hurts. You flat out said "not every thread you don't like is a joke", which wasn't my point...
I think a guide that's more detail oriented is more helpful rather than a really quick and formal one. Though I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter anymore, as the old guide isn't coming back (and doesn't really need to).
What's funny is there's 2 or 3 joke threads sitting on the front page right now... It's not about not liking these threads, it's about these posters having the subtlety of a clown on fire.
I will admit that some threads look like troll threads, but you have to understand, there truly are people who would enjoy things like guns, cars, whatever usually-thought-to-be joke things in Minecraft. I mean, look at all the popular gun and car mods. There are some threads I initially think are joke threads, but you kind of have to pick the lesser evil. What if the user actually thinks it'd be cool for robots driving race cars with laser guns and 400 health to be added to the game? Yeah it sounds insane, but to someone else it can have a sort of appeal.
It leaves a lot of gray area I feel the mods go through and are trying to explain to us. Sure we perceive them as joke threads, but what if the joke threads are actually serious? You can't exactly just go banning and warning without solid evidence that it's joking. Saying "It sounded really stupid" isn't exactly evidence either. That wouldn't hold up anywhere.
Unfortunately that means the quality of the forums seems lower for us, but to allow everyone their freedom to post their ideas in a suggestions forums is pretty much the most important part of the forums. Limiting people because their ideas sound dumb isn't exactly right.
The best thing to do about the forum quality is to improve as much of it as we can ourselves. Not really talking about min-modding, making up rules for quality, etc. Just do your part and use the forums as a forum. If you think a thread is a joke thread (or breaking any rules in general), don't bump it back to the top repeating the same argument 26 other people already made, which I see happen insanely often. Report and move on. Perhaps try to come up with some neat suggestions yourself, or put a bit of worthwhile discussions in other ideas.
The quality of a forum usually is significantly community driven, and if you want it to improve, we'd need to set a better example than posting on threads we think are joke threads to mock it with the same exact phrase 27 times then going somewhere else and start complaining about how there are so many joke threads.
I actually had this discussion with Theriasis, and you're wrong.
That's what I said.
Clearly, but we can't stop these things without making the mod team super authoritarian. We need to do what we can to improve the quality of suggestions, and I think it's best to start with the less intrusive ideas. A lot of these people read the old guide and decided the tone put them off - this is veritably true, you can find these people.
I'm entirely convinced now you're not listening. Some people try to read the guides, but the last one was off-putting due to either tone or length. This one isn't. How is that the same? How is that not a tangible improvement?
Frankly, I don't believe you. I don't believe for a second that the forum has a joke thread problem. I even looked, one thread on the front page was locked after OP clearly stated it was a joke.
You say these threads are so obviously jokes, yet you haven't shown me any. Have you ever actually been 9? Because that makes you post weird things.
I know a joke thread when I see one, and I don't label all bad threads to be a joke. It's not always about the suggestion, it's about reading between the lines and observing how they post. Also, if someone makes a thread so stupid that it can almost be considered a joke, it doesn't give you the right to just troll call or flamebait them, but it's still something the poster brings on himself. You shouldn't get all frazzled that your idea bombed when you could have searched for a hundred of the same threads that got crushed into dust. If it's an idea that would be hard to search for, I can forgive that.
As much as I'd love dumb threads to just vanish, that wouldn't make the forum that much better. There does need to be quality control, but I don't want all bad threads to be locked and punched in the head. If I saw "My super serious thread is about ender creepers. They have 1000000 health! My brain is smart." I'd never give these threads time to be seen if I was a mod...
There's one user in particular (which I can't call out) who intentionally gives himself away and nothing ever happens to him because he knows nothing will.
It isn't. But going "be free and have fun with it" doesn't mean all is well. You don't have to take suggestions that seriously, but don't call the entire forum "a bunch of haters >={" because you didn't take the time to think about what you were talking about.
I agree with this 300%, if only we can convince more people to not be so gullible and not go on a bump-for-the-last-word! frenzy.
The bigger problem is people feeding into them and giving these people more attention. This guide should also mention how this forum isn't for you to rage-rant just because you don't like 1.9 combat.
I know we can both go through the threads list right now and pick out a few posters that are pretty much trolls. The issue is there's still a gray area. If there's a what if, it's a gray area. It's not exactly right, because that's how loopholes occur, but going around all ban happy on those ideas without removing that gray area isn't right either.
That's what I mean when I say we have to pick the lesser evil and give the benefit of the doubt to the poster. It's not our forums to say otherwise, unfortunately. If I had my own forums I ran, I'd check some of those ideas off as joke threads, but it's not mine. And whether we like it or not, we must follow the way these forums call judgement.
It's kind of like the whole "The customer is always right" dealio. Most of the time they're probably wrong, but it's not our job to say otherwise, and in most cases we'd get fired because the higher ups just don't want to deal with the little fits the customer would throw if they didn't get their way. Yeah, it's not exactly right, and yeah, it does allow for some abuse and loopholes around rules, but it keeps both the customers and the business safe.
If anything, I feel troll threads are the least of our issues. I mean, yeah bumping them is an issue, but it's really a matter of just looking down to the next idea. Sure, when I see a troll thread bumped it gives me a brief moment of "Why would you do that?" but then it's gone. I do other things, I read other threads. And honestly, the whole people repeating used arguments irritates me more than the threads themselves.
I think the best solution to all of this is to add a "Block thread" option. Or if it doesn't already, blocking users hides threads made by them too. This works out for everyone because if after you report a troll thread and it was decided it wasn't, you can just hide the thread. Out of mind out of sight.
I hope this gets implemented like right now. That would be perfect. No having to see cancerous titles like "Flawless New Creeper (Hold on not what you think!!!)" No more having to see the threads keep hitting the top of page 1 because the gullibles keep bump bump bumping it without hope of rest. Bonus points if it blocks threads with selected words. Meaning any thread with so much as the word "thirst" goes on my nope list.
P.S.: Guys, don't bump bad threads with repeated arguments. Thanks.
That can certainly be suggested as an improvement (unsure if blocking a user blocks their threads as of now), but I doubt it would allow blocking of anything containing a specified word as blocking "gun" could block threads about guns here, but could also block gunk, outgun, begun, burgundy, gunpowder, etc. And yes you could make so it finds exact matches only, but then you would see guns, handgun, shotgun, speargun, etc. That is the problem with word filters: it will always filter too much or not enough, usually it does both at the same time.
I understand that many people want moderators to be more aggressive, but I don't think it is going to happen. We always want to err on the side of caution because more often than not we are dealing with misguided people who are entirely serious, just a bit too young to think bigger picture. This is in many ways a customer service environment, and going overboard with something like that is often more damaging than having a small group take advantage of our leniency (and again, my offer to PM me people you think are outright trolls always stands, and I will look into them personally). After all, if Wal-Mart started employing armed security to shake down anyone looking slightly suspicious just because some people shoplift, they would be out of business rather quickly. It is a perfect example of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
That said, the discussion is starting to get too far off topic, which is to improve this list of guidelines. Suggestions for general improvements to the forum should go in the Forum Discussion and Info section.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
I do think a few always-fail arguments should be mentioned...
- "I know my idea is bad, mojang will make it good, don't worry! =]"
- "It's optional so if you hate u can turn it off."
- "Idea is good because realistic!!"
- "I left this blank so you guys can finish it for me! bye!"
- "My idea is- uh oh gonna be late for school. *is never seen again*
Also, should mention not to bump your own thread or make a banner for it if it's hit with 'no support'. Otherwise you're just bringing more negative attention to your stuff.
I'm not too sure on these things but we can discuss it. Here are my initial reactions in bold.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
"Woah if my idea is bad you don't have to tell me! No bad posts allowed!"
Something else I think should be added to the criticizing section: Don't get technical unless you are a programmer. In other words, don't use excuses like "LAAAAAAAG," "too hard to code," or "they would have to rewrite the game to add this" without some supporting details to prove your statements.
Want to see my suggestions? Here they are!
I am also known as GameWyrm or GameWyrm97. You can also find me at snapshotmc.com
Not sure about this specific wording, it seems to be promoting arguments for authority. I agree with what you're actually saying - supporting evidence is key. I simply mean to say that adding "unless you're a programmer" creates the wrong idea.
I'd have to agree with Gamelord on the specifics. So, it's more of a diction thing here.
"Don't get technical unless you have a technical or logical background" gets more traction methinks.
You don't have to be a programmer to see how some suggestions would fail logical scrutiny. A suggestion like raytraced light is great (portable torch) but a logical position can state how lag would be created or exacerbated on slower already lagging hardware.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
Well, that does sound better. I figured that if Badprenup added it, he would change it anyway, so I just picked something short and sweet.
Want to see my suggestions? Here they are!
I am also known as GameWyrm or GameWyrm97. You can also find me at snapshotmc.com
Yeah about that. The points in the guide are very brief and some could do with some serious expanding.