At least an experienced user can link to that guide if it exists.
Let's say only 50% of all users who get it linked will actually click that link and read the guide, and only 1/10 of those will actually follow it and try to improve their threads. That's still 5% of new users who stop producing rubbish suggestions with no value whatsoever.
This is more or less true, but you're missing a key factor. Experienced users who actually link to that thread if it exists. That number is absolutely less than 1%, I'd go as far as to say less than 1% of 1% actually linked to the previous guide and I'm almost certain I'm the only one who has linked to this one, which I'm not surprised at due to previous linking and the negative reception I knew changing to a different guide would cause (truth be told I'm just happy people are willing to have a dialog about this at all).
Even if we're generous and say 1% of users link to a pinned guide (since you're already being generous with numbers imo), that cuts the number to .05%, 5 out of every 10,000. I'm not sure of current new user rates but considering how many of them never touch Suggestions or are bots or things like that, that is probably a new user in here every week or so. I'll get that number from citricsquid and do some more math.
But that means something important. Not only should the guidelines be improved upon, it wouldn't hurt to discuss some ways to increase readership of the guidelines. The best way to do that is if more people link to the guidelines, and putting it in signatures is a decent way too. I'll update my signature with a link to this thread as well as the previous 2 threads. While they may not be right for a sticky they do have information worth reading. I could talk to higher ups about including links to them in here as well, with the caveat of mentioning they are unofficial.
yoshi9048 is right, the way to make this effective is to make it a meme. Not a cat picture with captions type of meme, but a real meme, an ideal spread throughout the section.
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This is more or less true, but you're missing a key factor. Experienced users who actually link to that thread if it exists. That number is absolutely less than 1%, I'd go as far as to say less than 1% of 1% actually linked to the previous guide and I'm almost certain I'm the only one who has linked to this one, which I'm not surprised at due to previous linking and the negative reception I knew changing to a different guide would cause (truth be told I'm just happy people are willing to have a dialog about this at all).
Even if we're generous and say 1% of users link to a pinned guide (since you're already being generous with numbers imo), that cuts the number to .05%, 5 out of every 10,000. I'm not sure of current new user rates but considering how many of them never touch Suggestions or are bots or things like that, that is probably a new user in here every week or so. I'll get that number from citricsquid and do some more math.
But that means something important. Not only should the guidelines be improved upon, it wouldn't hurt to discuss some ways to increase readership of the guidelines. The best way to do that is if more people link to the guidelines, and putting it in signatures is a decent way too. I'll update my signature with a link to this thread as well as the previous 2 threads. While they may not be right for a sticky they do have information worth reading. I could talk to higher ups about including links to them in here as well, with the caveat of mentioning they are unofficial.
yoshi9048 is right, the way to make this effective is to make it a meme. Not a cat picture with captions type of meme, but a real meme, an ideal spread throughout the section.
I've linked to this, but it's only been once. After all, it's not been up long in the first place.
Putting these in our signatures seems like a very good idea. One that should've been come up with long ago.
Just a heads-up for people here. There has been a clarification for the troll-calling forum rule that might affect people posting responses to suggestion threads. Calling or implying that a thread is a joke or is not a serious thread, or that the OP is not serious will be treated as troll-calling. People should assume that the OP is posting a serious thread when posting their own responses, and simply report any threads or posts that they feel are trolling.
- showing those in a short manner, so no TL:DR, resulting in a lot of people knowing something, unlike the old, resulting in a few people believing they know everything and most knowing nothing.
Were you aware that last thread was meant to be humorous and not entirely "salty"?
- 99.9% facts(as opposed to the old one, I won't show any percentage: hyperbolizing or not, people get offended with ease as proven in the old thread)
*rubs forehead, groans* See, this just sounds like you're getting verbal revenge on the last guide. As if it bullied you. "People get offended with ease". Did you also forget about how much it improved people who read the thing? And please don't respond that that never happened, because it did.
- no manipulation
- no aggressive and/or salty manner
- child friendly
- quickly introducing you to the suggestions' world just like a plug n' play device
- is lackluster
- isn't interesting and attention grabbing with the Theriasis' genius writing
- is still missing plenty of important things
Just because you didn't like the last guide, doesn't mean it was wrong. If this guide is 99.9% correct facts, the old one was 200%. I'd rather have an interesting wall of text that covers everything than a brief read that covers maybe 10% of stuff written in a meh way.
I don't see this forum getting any better, especially with the increase of joke accounts being made and knowing what they can get away with.
I don't care what it was supposed to be, I care about the result. You just admitted the thread was salty by yourself. And I haven't even smiled while reading the thread. You didn't notice the quotes around the word "salty"..? As for not smiling, uhm... Oh well?
While you can contest how good this thread performs on the particular scale, this thread will perform much better on the general scale. Reason is the first 2 points on my list. Sadly, it doesn't warn people to not make dumb threads about Durrobrine or 15 more ores that all do the same thing.
It's supposed to be an introducing guideline, not a full-covering tutorial on how you should improve. That deserves another place.
Not really no. If it has to do with making suggestions, it should probably be in the guide that's about... suggestions.
I don't know what "genius writing" is for you, but for me, "genius writing" is a text with a good information/nr.of chars ratio. That type of text is what grabs my attention.
If you can manage to be clever and interesting while making a point, you're good. Bonus points if you can also be funny all the while. Anyone in the world can type a guide. Not everyone can be interesting when doing it.
I think you took in calculus half of the fact-based bits as 100%. Letting jokes aside, you HAVE TO admit, this thread is really almost fully fact-based, while the rest is actually real rational, mostly if not entirely undebatable thinking. Unlike the old thread which has been taken down because of lacking this, yet you use this as a counter-argument.
Every single word that was in the old guide was there for a reason. There was a "It can be optional!" section because bad suggesters kept thinking that making something optional magically fixed everything. It didn't. There was a "Logic vs. Realism" section because dopey posters would say stuff like "itz ok we have unrealistic creeperssss so my idea of walking meatloaf is guud!!"
People should assume that the OP is posting a serious thread when posting their own responses, and simply report any threads or posts that they feel are trolling.
Sadly, nothing is ever done about joke threaders... Even the most obvious ones.
It sounds like you have a very deep grudge against the other guide. Did that guide really offend you that much? You made quite a bit of posts in that thread trying to disprove stuff there.
Sadly, nothing is ever done about joke threaders... Even the most obvious ones.
Actually, we do occasionally give out troll warnings for suggestion thread posters, but our standards of what is actually trolling (versus what is just a poorly written or exaggerated suggestion) is quite high. It is extremely rare, but suggestion posters have been permanently banned from the forum for repeatedly posting troll suggestions.
People, this thread is for discussing the guidelines, not for discussing what types of suggestions are disliked. Please limit this discussion to the current guidelines or suggestions for updating/changing the guidelines.
The general reason why I dislike the old thread is that it wasn't made in a professional way, and it was way too subjective, way too aggressive, and pretty much the opposite of the list I made, showing why this thread is good.
It's just a guide. If a guide really gets to you that much, maybe the issue is on your end. Not the guide's. That guide was also mod approved at the time, as it had to go through a couple of mods' approvals before being posted. It's not like the guide named you specifically and went "LightningSh0ck is a butt head loool!"
The guide here is very skippable and generic. Like a server MOTD that nobody reads. I don't mean anything personal to Badprenup because he condensed everything very well but there's still a ton of stuff that goes unmentioned:
Type of threads no one should ever post, people shouldn't backpedal, this isn't a place for you to insult Mojang and act like you're the ambassador of game design, etc.
It's just a guide. If a guide really gets to you that much, maybe the issue is on your end. Not the guide's. That guide was also mod approved at the time, as it had to go through a couple of mods' approvals before being posted. It's not like the guide named you specifically and went "LightningSh0ck is a butt head loool!"
The guide here is very skippable and generic. Like a server MOTD that nobody reads. I don't mean anything personal to Badprenup because he condensed everything very well but there's still a ton of stuff that goes unmentioned:
Type of threads no one should ever post, people shouldn't backpedal, this isn't a place for you to insult Mojang and act like you're the ambassador of game design, etc.
As mentioned before, while yes people did sign off on the original thread, even after we asked it to be revised for tone and content it continued to cause numerous issues in this section, which is why the administrators (people way above my level), decided it needed to be replaced with something more official and more neutral.
If anyone has any suggestions on how to make the thread "pop" a bit more, they are free to make them. I already took some advice into consideration and made it easier to read, but I can't make it better unless people tell me what they want to see. As for those particular things that go unmentioned:
Threads nobody should post: Already covered by the rules (don't spam, don't troll, post in the right section). As long as it doesn't break the rules they can post it. We aren't going to tell people to not suggest certain things because "nobody likes them" because that is simply not true and is exactly the type of condescending nature we're trying to avoid.
People shouldn't backpedal: Wouldn't be a bad idea to implement, but in reality it happens very little. Besides, it really depends on what you mean by "backpedaling". Some backpedaling should be fine like going back on something they said based on feedback from others.
No insulting Mojang: Flaming is flaming, even if the person who it is directed to will probably never read it. So this is already covered. Besides, this rarely happens anyways. The point of the guidelines are general rules that happen often, not covering anything and everything because it happened once or twice.
No acting like you know everything about game design: In my experience, this should be aimed more towards the "critics" than the people making suggestions. Besides, saying you think one thing or another is not well designed is perfectly fine, that is exactly what constructive criticism is. It is all about tone. And again, doesn't really happen frequently enough to warrant a guideline. Maybe it could be added in to "Be open to feedback" and "Be kind and respectful of other's ideas"
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Actually, we do occasionally give out troll warnings for suggestion thread posters, but our standards of what is actually trolling (versus what is just a poorly written or exaggerated suggestion) is quite high. It is extremely rare, but suggestion posters have been permanently banned from the forum for repeatedly posting troll suggestions.
Could you start with [deleted]? You know, the most obvious guy on the planet?
Could you start with [deleted]? You know, the most obvious guy on the planet?
We aren't permitted to discuss specific forum users or actions taken against particular forum users. Such discussions are between the forum user and the forum/site administrators and are private.
Edit: People, please do not bring up specific people for discussion in this thread.
So again, why are Heroherp threads allowed here but deleted everywhere else?
Because there is a difference. Saying "omg Herobrine is in my world coming to get me!" is spreading hoaxes which is considered spam and/or trolling. That is not allowed
Making a fictional story in the Show Your Creation section is okay, because by the nature of the section everything in it is fan creations and therefore not real. You go into that section knowing it is all made up by someone. That is allowed. Talking about a Herobrine mod in the Mod Discussion section is allowed because you are discussing an actual modification made that adds the character. Same with requesting a specific type of Herobrine mod to be made in the Mod Requests section, it is allowed because you are requesting someone make it.
And with that last one we get to this section. Asking for Herobrine to be in the game can be seen as a perfectly legitimate suggestion. He has a big history in the game's community, a lot of fan popularity, and a lot of people would legitimately like the idea, even if they aren't the people that regularly frequent this section. It really depends on the content of the suggestion. If we are talking about someone who wants just Herobrine appearing in the distance or suddenly from around a corner, perfectly legitimate. If we're talking "He is always chasing the player and can kill you in one hit even if you are in Creative and when you die from him your computer shuts down", we are going to investigate it.
As sunperp said, generally always locked, but it has to be handled on a case by case basis.
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The OP fiddling around with polls. I've seen a lot of dorky posters switch around the answers because they're too teary-eyed to accept suggestion rejection.
Backpedaling. "Oh I was totes just joking!!", "This suggestion is just a test bed, the reeeaal suggestion is comin' soon!!", "My little brother posted this, he also happens to post the exact same way as me, weird right?!?!"
If your idea is diarrhea, don't bump your own thread for hardly any reason for getting 16 no-supports in a row unless you're heavily improving the idea. Otherwise you're just bringing attention to an already hated turd.
If a user is purposefully rigging their poll or changing their poll answers, that could be reported for trolling. I'll talk to people about if we can prevent the poll from being edited in that way because imo being able to do that seems more like a bug than anything else.
Backpedaling we can certainly look into, I have seen that a few times, enough to forsee it as something we can try and nip in the bud. Bumping is always against the rules unless contributing to discussion and replying to people who disagree with the idea counts as contributing as long as they don't break other rules while responding.
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Backpedaling we can certainly look into, I have seen that a few times, enough to forsee it as something we can try and nip in the bud.
"My idea so guud guud guuuuuuuuuud! Can someone make me a banner?! What's Mojang's email?"
"no support"
"Woah you guys this is just text on a forum please breathe hurrdy durrdy!"
ugh/10. Also does the guide mention constant self-praise? The OP needs to know that their own opinion is the weakest no matter what. We already know you like your own idea, hence you making a thread. You complimenting yourself won't change our minds.
I've also seen mini-censorship going on. If someone dislikes a suggestion, OP would cry "if you don't like it, don't post!". This goes with the idea of being receptive to criticism; but it may be different enough to deserve it's own point.
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Retired StaffThis is more or less true, but you're missing a key factor. Experienced users who actually link to that thread if it exists. That number is absolutely less than 1%, I'd go as far as to say less than 1% of 1% actually linked to the previous guide and I'm almost certain I'm the only one who has linked to this one, which I'm not surprised at due to previous linking and the negative reception I knew changing to a different guide would cause (truth be told I'm just happy people are willing to have a dialog about this at all).
Even if we're generous and say 1% of users link to a pinned guide (since you're already being generous with numbers imo), that cuts the number to .05%, 5 out of every 10,000. I'm not sure of current new user rates but considering how many of them never touch Suggestions or are bots or things like that, that is probably a new user in here every week or so. I'll get that number from citricsquid and do some more math.
But that means something important. Not only should the guidelines be improved upon, it wouldn't hurt to discuss some ways to increase readership of the guidelines. The best way to do that is if more people link to the guidelines, and putting it in signatures is a decent way too. I'll update my signature with a link to this thread as well as the previous 2 threads. While they may not be right for a sticky they do have information worth reading. I could talk to higher ups about including links to them in here as well, with the caveat of mentioning they are unofficial.
yoshi9048 is right, the way to make this effective is to make it a meme. Not a cat picture with captions type of meme, but a real meme, an ideal spread throughout the section.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
I've linked to this, but it's only been once. After all, it's not been up long in the first place.
Putting these in our signatures seems like a very good idea. One that should've been come up with long ago.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
I've actually taken the steps to add them to my sig as well.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
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UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
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ModeratorJust a heads-up for people here. There has been a clarification for the troll-calling forum rule that might affect people posting responses to suggestion threads. Calling or implying that a thread is a joke or is not a serious thread, or that the OP is not serious will be treated as troll-calling. People should assume that the OP is posting a serious thread when posting their own responses, and simply report any threads or posts that they feel are trolling.
- sunperp
Were you aware that last thread was meant to be humorous and not entirely "salty"?
*rubs forehead, groans* See, this just sounds like you're getting verbal revenge on the last guide. As if it bullied you. "People get offended with ease". Did you also forget about how much it improved people who read the thing? And please don't respond that that never happened, because it did.
- is lackluster
- isn't interesting and attention grabbing with the Theriasis' genius writing
- is still missing plenty of important things
Just because you didn't like the last guide, doesn't mean it was wrong. If this guide is 99.9% correct facts, the old one was 200%. I'd rather have an interesting wall of text that covers everything than a brief read that covers maybe 10% of stuff written in a meh way.
I don't see this forum getting any better, especially with the increase of joke accounts being made and knowing what they can get away with.
Sadly, nothing is ever done about joke threaders... Even the most obvious ones.
It sounds like you have a very deep grudge against the other guide. Did that guide really offend you that much? You made quite a bit of posts in that thread trying to disprove stuff there.
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ModeratorActually, we do occasionally give out troll warnings for suggestion thread posters, but our standards of what is actually trolling (versus what is just a poorly written or exaggerated suggestion) is quite high. It is extremely rare, but suggestion posters have been permanently banned from the forum for repeatedly posting troll suggestions.
- sunperp
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ModeratorPeople, this thread is for discussing the guidelines, not for discussing what types of suggestions are disliked. Please limit this discussion to the current guidelines or suggestions for updating/changing the guidelines.
- sunperp
It's just a guide. If a guide really gets to you that much, maybe the issue is on your end. Not the guide's. That guide was also mod approved at the time, as it had to go through a couple of mods' approvals before being posted. It's not like the guide named you specifically and went "LightningSh0ck is a butt head loool!"
The guide here is very skippable and generic. Like a server MOTD that nobody reads. I don't mean anything personal to Badprenup because he condensed everything very well but there's still a ton of stuff that goes unmentioned:
Type of threads no one should ever post, people shouldn't backpedal, this isn't a place for you to insult Mojang and act like you're the ambassador of game design, etc.
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Retired StaffAs mentioned before, while yes people did sign off on the original thread, even after we asked it to be revised for tone and content it continued to cause numerous issues in this section, which is why the administrators (people way above my level), decided it needed to be replaced with something more official and more neutral.
If anyone has any suggestions on how to make the thread "pop" a bit more, they are free to make them. I already took some advice into consideration and made it easier to read, but I can't make it better unless people tell me what they want to see. As for those particular things that go unmentioned:
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
Could you start with [deleted]? You know, the most obvious guy on the planet?
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ModeratorWe aren't permitted to discuss specific forum users or actions taken against particular forum users. Such discussions are between the forum user and the forum/site administrators and are private.
Edit: People, please do not bring up specific people for discussion in this thread.
- sunperp
My post got deleted... Coolio... -_____-
So again, why are Heroherp threads allowed here but deleted everywhere else?
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ModeratorHerobrine suggestion threads are generally always locked. The forum staff would most likely handle that on a case-by-case basis.
- sunperp
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Retired StaffBecause there is a difference. Saying "omg Herobrine is in my world coming to get me!" is spreading hoaxes which is considered spam and/or trolling. That is not allowed
Making a fictional story in the Show Your Creation section is okay, because by the nature of the section everything in it is fan creations and therefore not real. You go into that section knowing it is all made up by someone. That is allowed. Talking about a Herobrine mod in the Mod Discussion section is allowed because you are discussing an actual modification made that adds the character. Same with requesting a specific type of Herobrine mod to be made in the Mod Requests section, it is allowed because you are requesting someone make it.
And with that last one we get to this section. Asking for Herobrine to be in the game can be seen as a perfectly legitimate suggestion. He has a big history in the game's community, a lot of fan popularity, and a lot of people would legitimately like the idea, even if they aren't the people that regularly frequent this section. It really depends on the content of the suggestion. If we are talking about someone who wants just Herobrine appearing in the distance or suddenly from around a corner, perfectly legitimate. If we're talking "He is always chasing the player and can kill you in one hit even if you are in Creative and when you die from him your computer shuts down", we are going to investigate it.
As sunperp said, generally always locked, but it has to be handled on a case by case basis.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
Guide should have these three things:
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Retired StaffIf a user is purposefully rigging their poll or changing their poll answers, that could be reported for trolling. I'll talk to people about if we can prevent the poll from being edited in that way because imo being able to do that seems more like a bug than anything else.
Backpedaling we can certainly look into, I have seen that a few times, enough to forsee it as something we can try and nip in the bud. Bumping is always against the rules unless contributing to discussion and replying to people who disagree with the idea counts as contributing as long as they don't break other rules while responding.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
"My idea so guud guud guuuuuuuuuud! Can someone make me a banner?! What's Mojang's email?"
"no support"
"Woah you guys this is just text on a forum please breathe hurrdy durrdy!"
ugh/10. Also does the guide mention constant self-praise? The OP needs to know that their own opinion is the weakest no matter what. We already know you like your own idea, hence you making a thread. You complimenting yourself won't change our minds.
I've also seen mini-censorship going on. If someone dislikes a suggestion, OP would cry "if you don't like it, don't post!". This goes with the idea of being receptive to criticism; but it may be different enough to deserve it's own point.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)