Why did the mods want a new guide to be made, and then just suddenly just decide against it? Well, there's nothing of value in this forum anymore. There's also nothing telling users to not make classic herp-newbie mistakes.
It should also mention that if you want handle negative criticism, you shouldn't make a thread at all.
On the topic of reporting, there should also be a mention how the OP shouldn't just report every post he disagrees with.
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Why did the mods want a new guide to be made, and then just suddenly just decide against it?
Because of the toxic environment that the regulars were creating in this section by their use of the previous guide as a set of unofficial rules that they were insisting were required to be followed. The moderators were having an ever-increasing problem not from poor suggestion threads, but from the responses suggestion threads were receiving from the long-time users of the suggestion section.
There's also nothing telling users to not make classic herp-newbie mistakes.
And why should there be? As I stated in one of my previous posts, there isn't a pinned section-specific thread etiquette guide anywhere else on these forums, why is the suggestions forum so special or unique as to require this? So long as a user is following the forum rules, let them post what they want to post.
On the topic of reporting, there should also be a mention how the OP shouldn't just report every post he disagrees with.
A user has a right to report posts they perceive as violating the forum rules. Considering that reporting a post doesn't affect any regular forum users and isn't visible to any regular forum users, I can't see any reason why this would need to be stated.
Because of the toxic environment that the regulars were creating in this section by their use of the previous guide as a set of unofficial rules that they were insisting were required to be followed. The moderators were having an ever-increasing problem not from poor suggestion threads, but from the responses suggestion threads were receiving from the long-time users of the suggestion section.
That went both ways. The critics did cling to the unofficial things, but some of us successfully explained why excuses like "it's balanced because it's rare" never worked. Or why Herobrine threads always flopped. The other guide helped pave the way to not fall into the same traps the 2,000 users before them fell into.
And why should there be? As I stated in one of my previous posts, there isn't a pinned section-specific thread etiquette guide anywhere else on these forums, why is the suggestions forum so special or unique as to require this? So long as a user is following the forum rules, let them post what they want to post.
I don't mean to speak for McRiveter, but a good deal of the people who post here completely go insane with rage because they don't know what they're setting up for themselves when a bit of help was right around the corner. When people don't support them, they flip out and get a bad perspective on it.
A user has a right to report posts they perceive as violating the forum rules. Considering that reporting a post doesn't affect any regular forum users and isn't visible to any regular forum users, I can't see any reason why this would need to be stated.
I'm talking about people who report posts just because they disagree with the OP, not because they broke any rules. I know that doesn't hurt anyone, but some of these posters are people who a.) tell people they're being reported and b.) mistake criticism for trolling, which is one of the worst things you could do here. Like throwing a land mine right in your own path.
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
That went both ways. The critics did cling to the unofficial things, but some of us successfully explained why excuses like "it's balanced because it's rare" never worked. Or why Herobrine threads always flopped. The other guide helped pave the way to not fall into the same traps the 2,000 users before them fell into.
And that is fine for an unofficial guide, but is not needed for a pinned thread. Pinning the previous guides gave them an air of being official, which was one of the biggest problems the forum staff was having with them.
I don't mean to speak for McRiveter, but a good deal of the people who post here completely go insane with rage because they don't know what they're setting up for themselves when a bit of help was right around the corner. When people don't support them, they flip out and get a bad perspective on it.
If suggestion posters are becoming unreasonable with their responses to critiques, then simply report them, or ignore their thread and move on. If they continue to reject constructive criticism, then the forum staff have the option of locking their thread or issuing them a warning if they are really being abusive.
I'm talking about people who report posts just because they disagree with the OP, not because they broke any rules. I know that doesn't hurt anyone, but some of these posters are people who a.) tell people they're being reported and b.) mistake criticism for trolling, which is one of the worst things you could do here. Like throwing a land mine right in your own path.
If a user is indicating that they are reporting another user, then their post should be reported as a rule violation. Users are not allowed to do that.
On the topic of reporting, there should also be a mention how the OP shouldn't just report every post he disagrees with.
That has never been a problem in this section, or in any part of the Discussion section for as long as I have been a moderator and actually able to see reports as they come in. We've had a few bad users do it here and there, but they are one off instances that do not happen enough to warrant putting something into stickied guidelines. And if we do see someone abusing the reporting system, we have measures that we take against it. Those users have never lasted long, either because they have stopped posting on their own accord or because they did enough that action was taken against them.
@chrispang: The old threads being stickied didn't actually help cut down on any of that. I was around before the first one was stickied and I am here now after the second one and the FTC thread was unstickied. There hasn't really been any widespread change in thread quality because of those threads existing, there were always going to be the 5% of people willing to put in the extra effort to make a great idea and the 95% of people who would not. That has never changed.
As for the idea of a standardized format it is something I know has been discussed in the past. That said, I believe we decided against it because it:
Not necessary for every suggestion, some simply are not complex enough to warrant a specific format
This section is not important enough to dedicate the time and money to implement such a feature. This would require a whole "post template" system to be developed, and while it might help in other sections as well (such as servers or support), It really isn't needed as far as I am aware. We've gotten along just fine without it for years and years now. Good users and threads stand out on their own. The wheat has always separated itself from the chaff, so to speak. Not saying it won't happen because Curse and citricsquid move in mysterious ways, but it isn't planned as far as I am aware.
Without a way to force people to adhere to a specific manner of posting, this would be basically impossible to enforce. Are we going to lock every thread that isn't posted in a particular, arbitrary way? If this section (and actually the entire forum for that matter) is slowly losing new users over time, I'm almost certain this would kill the section once and for all. The entire section would be almost entirely locked threads. I'd rather keep these "B threads" as you call them alive and discussed rather than disallow anything that doesn't meet an arbitrary, subjective quality standard.
Updated the OP with a 7th guideline for making suggestions. Haven't gotten around to any formatting advice yet.
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Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
A user has a right to report posts they perceive as violating the forum rules. Considering that reporting a post doesn't affect any regular forum users and isn't visible to any regular forum users, I can't see any reason why this would need to be stated.
The purpose of this is not to tell the OP not to report posts they disagree with. The root issue is "Don't get upset or discouraged. This forum has disagreements, and that's alright. It's okay to disagree, it's okay to be wrong, and it's okay for others to be wrong." In essence, helping new users more easily adapt to this forum's culture, which has quite a bit of disagreement. Some of this is touched on in "be open to feedback" but that point and its description do not entirely get this across. I'm not sure it's really a "guideline" but I do think it's important.
If we're really going to get rid of all specific notions of etiquette, I think we should attempt to look at what these specific rules were actually trying to get across. That's what's actually important to convey to new arrivals.
Because of the toxic environment that the regulars were creating in this section by their use of the previous guide as a set of unofficial rules that they were insisting were required to be followed. The moderators were having an ever-increasing problem not from poor suggestion threads, but from the responses suggestion threads were receiving from the long-time users of the suggestion section.
Toxic? You can also get a different kind of toxic if you don't teach people what does and doesn't work for a suggestion. I get this is supposed to be a "have fun with it" forum, but there are some scenarios that posters put themselves into where they just can't win (and blame everyone else because they're allergic to humility).
I won't lie, the last guide was so well-written that it could turn a boring kid into a game developer with good ideas. The guide had the power to change your way of thinking. Now we have a new guide, so we're hitting a reset button and need to rebuild the do's and don'ts all over again.
And why should there be? As I stated in one of my previous posts, there isn't a pinned section-specific thread etiquette guide anywhere else on these forums, why is the suggestions forum so special or unique as to require this? So long as a user is following the forum rules, let them post what they want to post.
Because there's so much content a suggestion can have compared to other posts on different forums. You're always gonna have negatives no matter the guide, but a guide that ties up every loose end is a good way to go. Theriasis also tells me that she's deeply enraged that her guide was replaced and got banned right after. I don't blame her. At all.
A user has a right to report posts they perceive as violating the forum rules. Considering that reporting a post doesn't affect any regular forum users and isn't visible to any regular forum users, I can't see any reason why this would need to be stated.
I guess it doesn't, I just thought it would be for good measure to remind people that disagreeing critics aren't "trolls" that need to be reported.
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
but there are some scenarios that posters put themselves into where they just can't win (and blame everyone else because they're allergic to humility).
As I have already stated, if thread posters are becoming unreasonable with their responses, just report them and move on. If they are not listening to constructive criticism, just move onto the next suggestion thread.
Now we have a new guide, so we're hitting a reset button and need to rebuild the do's and don'ts all over again.
No, we don't. As I have stated several times, so long as people follow the forum rules, let them post suggestions however they want. If repliers are upset about how a suggestion is formatted or its lack of content, they can provide constructive criticism or move on to the next suggestion.
Because there's so much content a suggestion can have compared to other posts on different forums. You're always gonna have negatives no matter the guide, but a guide that ties up every loose end is a good way to go.
I see just as much varied content in the various Mods sub-forums as I do in the Suggestions forum, but I see no constant hammering of thread posters about how they are formatting their threads or their lack of following a posting guide.
Theriasis also tells me that she's deeply enraged that her guide was replaced and got banned right after. I don't blame her. At all.
The moderators have been discussing the possibility of simplifying the pinned guides for a while now. The replacement was pushed through due to the arguing in the previous Read This guide. The replacement was in no way influenced by the change in status of Theriasis -- at some point the simplified guide would have been pushed through anyway.
I've been looking through this guide and its posts, trying to figure out why Theriasis' wicked good guide was unpinned. And it's just 'cause critics take it too seriously? Her guide was fun to read, even when not suggesting. Why not repin it, but add one paragraph at the top of it to help solve the critic prolem:
NOTE: Remember that this is a guide, so critics shouldn't bash the OP for not abiding by it like it's the US Constitution. What is important for critics to do is analyze the idea itself- you are not critiquing the OP's organization skills or thier ability to utilize capital letters properly. If a suggestion breaks the Rules, though, just send a report and be on your merry way. Happy reading!
(That was basically a rephrase of one of the guidelines on this OP.)
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Console Battle is two games rolled into one: gambling (whether or not you get one of the OP weapons) and betting (which teammate won't turn on you, since teaming is pretty much a requirement to kill off another team)! Of course, it's not all chance; at its core, Battle is about triumphing and defeating other players... by kicking them out if they win to make yourself feel better.
As I have already stated, if thread posters are becoming unreasonable with their responses, just report them and move on. If they are not listening to constructive criticism, just move onto the next suggestion thread.
Fair enough I guess, but sadly the obvious joke threaders get off scot-free.
No, we don't. As I have stated several times, so long as people follow the forum rules, let them post suggestions however they want. If repliers are upset about how a suggestion is formatted or its lack of content, they can provide constructive criticism or move on to the next suggestion.
I'm not saying this guide needs to replicate the old one. But there are still some missing essentials. How to search, how to post images, how to format/make images, all that stuff. Though I know Badprenup said he would get to that and that he was busy and all.
I see just as much varied content in the various Mods sub-forums as I do in the Suggestions forum, but I see no constant hammering of thread posters about how they are formatting their threads or their lack of following a posting guide.
There's nothing stopping you guys from adding more content to the guides of the other forums if you wanted. If that's even needed. Also, I'm sure Theriasis would have happily made you guys a third guide that was just as short as this one, while still keeping it very interesting, because she has that magic touch with everything she says. Not that I'm dissing Badprenup's guide.
The moderators have been discussing the possibility of simplifying the pinned guides for a while now. The replacement was pushed through due to the arguing in the previous Read This guide. The replacement was in no way influenced by the change in status of Theriasis -- at some point the simplified guide would have been pushed through anyway.
I think every single megathread is susceptible to arguing of some kind. There's always gonna be something people disagree on. It's not my place to tell mods how they should do things, but a lot of us were still pretty enraged at the weeks of effort in the last guide. It all just happened so fast. Theriasis told me she had one of those Adminstrative Review bans for constant nasty posting (same one that I got), which was confusing because I didn't see her post that often anyway. Eh, still not my place to judge.
You guys mentioned how a guide like this shouldn't have a hall of fame, but could we still have one or two examples of the best threads to show people? And no, one of the threads doesn't have to be mine.
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Giving suggesters complete freedom isn't entirely a good thing. Example:
"I suggest we put in HerobreeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN in game!!!! Players want him in the game so add him because my idea is smart. Please share my views and agree with me!"
That freedom is gonna get that poster nothing but "no support" and "let this crappypasta die thanks". Also, I think this guide needs to list the threads that aren't allowed here. Megathreads, angry rant threads, non-suggestions, etc.
Giving suggesters complete freedom isn't entirely a good thing. Example:
"I suggest we put in HerobreeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN in game!!!! Players want him in the game so add him because my idea is smart. Please share my views and agree with me!"
That freedom is gonna get that poster nothing but "no support" and "let this crappypasta die thanks". Also, I think this guide needs to list the threads that aren't allowed here. Megathreads, angry rant threads, non-suggestions, etc.
I've been trying to avoid commenting on people who set themselves up for failure, because the only response would be "Let them post whatever they want." I don't think it is a productive line of thought.
I think that if they're not allowed, they should be in therules, not the guidelines.
Angry rant threads are taken care of by the global rules, I'm pretty sure. Megathreads, which I believe are defined as threads that ask for others to suggest things, are not in the rules when as far as I'm aware, they should be. Non-suggestions are... iffy. What is a "non-suggestion" that wouldn't be a "wrong forum" issue?
If something is obviously bad and you don't want to give it any credibility; the absolute WORST thing you can do is bump it with how bad it is. If something doesn't deserve to exist; then ideally it should be buried around page 10 or 11. Saying "horrible, just horrible, no support!" only acts to bump the thread to page 1 where visibility is high and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
That's the crux of the reason I say "press back and move on", because the more you filter out the bad by just letting it sink; the more the good/worthy suggestions rise to the surface. Sometimes your best move is no move. In this case; lazy wins. pressing back is a button click on a mouse. If you have a 5 button mouse; it's literally a mouse click anywhere (keybinding exeunt); otherwise it's a mouse click in a large button on the browser UI.
Often times, a bad suggestion can be referred to a better-suggested version made by a more competent poster with a quick search. In cases like this; I'd say rules of courtesy still apply. Check to see if the older thread is still active (OP is still posting), and post a link to that thread in a report. I wouldn't recommend telling the bad OP because that can be misconstrued as mini-modding. In a worst case; the mods can actually add the link when they lock the thread.
If something is obviously bad and you don't want to give it any credibility; the absolute WORST thing you can do is bump it with how bad it is. If something doesn't deserve to exist; then ideally it should be buried around page 10 or 11. Saying "horrible, just horrible, no support!" only acts to bump the thread to page 1 where visibility is high and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
This doesn't work in the most ideal way. For two reasons.
1.) Can you convince an entire forum of people to NOT bump the stupid threads?
2.) How will Captain Uncreative know his suggestion is bad unless someone lets him know?
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
This doesn't work in the most ideal way. For two reasons.
1.) Can you convince an entire forum of people to NOT bump the stupid threads?
2.) How will Captain Uncreative know his suggestion is bad unless someone lets him know?
1) You're right, we can't. But the issue is more that the regular users who should know better continue to bump bad threads. If 1-2 people bump it, fine we can't do anything about it. But those still wind up falling to the back pages faster than if 2 dozen people all post to say an idea is bad, keeping it on the front page for a week or more. Besides, if you choose to ignore the bad thread, it doesn't matter if it is on the front page or not. It isn't your problem, and there are 20 other threads on just the front page you can devote your attention to. Or you can find an older thread and post with something to contribute to discussion, bringing it to the front and pushing the bad thread further down and giving an older thread that is more deserving of discussion another round.
2) Three part answer. First part is "who cares?". Why is it so important to tell someone that you think their thread sucks? I get that people don't learn unless you teach them but this isn't exactly a major issue because of the other two parts to the answer.
The second part is related to your first question. The 1-2 people that are probably going to respond to a suggestion no matter what. If they already said an idea is bad, what is saying it again going to do? It probably won't help them learn anymore than the other 2 posts did. It probably will make the person feel crappy though, or if they actually are a troll you're just giving them what they want. Having everyone dogpile on a suggestion to say it is bad does more harm than good.
Third part is the fact that they will likely get a couple replies and then nobody else responds so it falls to older pages. That should be enough combined with the couple people that will respond anyways. Either they will get it at that point or they won't.
Half of the problems in this section would not exist if users didn't put so much effort into "teaching" people how to make suggestions. It basically only results in feeding what they believe are potential trolls and then complaining about a troll problem. If they instead focused on finding good ideas and encouraging those the entire section would be better for it.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
2) Three part answer. First part is "who cares?". Why is it so important to tell someone that you think their thread sucks? I get that people don't learn unless you teach them but this isn't exactly a major issue because of the other two parts to the answer.
You don't need to flat out tell them that their thread sucks... Some people who are suggestionally challenged are posting sincerely. If everyone ignores them, how will they know how good/bad their ideas are?
The second part is related to your first question. The 1-2 people that are probably going to respond to a suggestion no matter what. If they already said an idea is bad, what is saying it again going to do? It probably won't help them learn anymore than the other 2 posts did. It probably will make the person feel crappy though, or if they actually are a troll you're just giving them what they want. Having everyone dogpile on a suggestion to say it is bad does more harm than good.
I'm actually talking about those first few posters. Yes, if the point is made, the posts should stop. Sadly that's almost never the case as people never think that out.
Half of the problems in this section would not exist if users didn't put so much effort into "teaching" people how to make suggestions. It basically only results in feeding what they believe are potential trolls and then complaining about a troll problem. If they instead focused on finding good ideas and encouraging those the entire section would be better for it.
Double edged sword. No matter how good you make a thread, some suggestions just never ever work. Cars and fighter jets are terrible. A "Herobrine bosssssss" is terrible. Guns and grenades are horribad. Giving them the freedom to make those posts ends in the same way regardless of whatever guide exists. Though the last guide at least told you why these ideas were crappy, and if those ideas had some form redemption, they would be removed from the list.
As for a "troll problem", I've only seen that happen if the poster was a super obvious joke threader, which still cover this forum. There's always fresh accounts just for that very reason. I don't mean for any of this to sound like I'm undermining the mods, but still. Also, why was the critics guide removed?
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Fair enough I guess, but sadly the obvious joke threaders get off scot-free.
This to the Nth degree. It's so hard for me to not name names here. One of them being Bar- nope nevermind.
Is this guide gonna get the 'how to search properly' thing? That's one of the most important things here. It might actually stop those "we n33d paint >=(" threads. By the way, Theriasis told me on Steam that she saw this guide and it filled her with all kinds of depression. Anyway, this guide should also have a few arguments listed that never work.
And a mention that you shouldn't diarrhea out a thread if you get tears from negative feedback.
You don't need to flat out tell them that their thread sucks... Some people who are suggestionally challenged are posting sincerely. If everyone ignores them, how will they know how good/bad their ideas are?
At that point, I'd recommend "pick your battles", if the poster is sincere; then they will appreciate some helpful feedback. If no one is helping; then break the bystander effect and give your two cents. I've actually taken more than one bad suggestion and flipped it into a useful/good one.
I'm actually talking about those first few posters. Yes, if the point is made, the posts should stop. Sadly that's almost never the case as people never think that out.
I don't try to make a habit of predicting the user base. It's too large, too amorphous. I can only speak about things that you can control. If I can reach even one person that understands that post-bumping a baddy is self-defeating; then I can propagate a chain reaction. The idea is to make the concept a meme. Make it viral. If you do it, and enough people respect you; then they'll do the same. Then their friends will do the same. Etc.
Sure, you can't control the internet, and I wouldn't dream of stating so in any case; but if you can encourage and influence one, then you can start a positive chain reaction.
Double edged sword. No matter how good you make a thread, some suggestions just never ever work. Cars and fighter jets are terrible. A "Herobrine bosssssss" is terrible. Guns and grenades are horribad. Giving them the freedom to make those posts ends in the same way regardless of whatever guide exists. Though the last guide at least told you why these ideas were crappy, and if those ideas had some form redemption, they would be removed from the list.
I'd actually like to see the window for similar thread widened from 1 month to 6 months.
Unrelated, there are actually a lot of really well made gun and grenade threads. I've participated in some. The issue is that the concept is natively polarizing; so you either love it or hate it. Guns are the Seinfeld of the Suggestion Forum.
Also, why was the critics guide removed?
FTC was removed due to three factors. 1) Lack of regular views. 2) Redundant with current guidelines, 3) Confusion (after my attempts to diffuse it) as to whether FTC is a rule (it isn't) or not.
Even if it's an unofficial guideline, the fact that it was pinned kind of sent a mixed message.
As I said before though, it was on moderator whim that it was pinned. It's by moderator whim that it's removed again.
Why did the mods want a new guide to be made, and then just suddenly just decide against it? Well, there's nothing of value in this forum anymore. There's also nothing telling users to not make classic herp-newbie mistakes.
It should also mention that if you want handle negative criticism, you shouldn't make a thread at all.
Same actually. Place is kind of a wasteland now.
On the topic of reporting, there should also be a mention how the OP shouldn't just report every post he disagrees with.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
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ModeratorBecause of the toxic environment that the regulars were creating in this section by their use of the previous guide as a set of unofficial rules that they were insisting were required to be followed. The moderators were having an ever-increasing problem not from poor suggestion threads, but from the responses suggestion threads were receiving from the long-time users of the suggestion section.
And why should there be? As I stated in one of my previous posts, there isn't a pinned section-specific thread etiquette guide anywhere else on these forums, why is the suggestions forum so special or unique as to require this? So long as a user is following the forum rules, let them post what they want to post.
A user has a right to report posts they perceive as violating the forum rules. Considering that reporting a post doesn't affect any regular forum users and isn't visible to any regular forum users, I can't see any reason why this would need to be stated.
- sunperp
That went both ways. The critics did cling to the unofficial things, but some of us successfully explained why excuses like "it's balanced because it's rare" never worked. Or why Herobrine threads always flopped. The other guide helped pave the way to not fall into the same traps the 2,000 users before them fell into.
I don't mean to speak for McRiveter, but a good deal of the people who post here completely go insane with rage because they don't know what they're setting up for themselves when a bit of help was right around the corner. When people don't support them, they flip out and get a bad perspective on it.
I'm talking about people who report posts just because they disagree with the OP, not because they broke any rules. I know that doesn't hurt anyone, but some of these posters are people who a.) tell people they're being reported and b.) mistake criticism for trolling, which is one of the worst things you could do here. Like throwing a land mine right in your own path.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
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ModeratorAnd that is fine for an unofficial guide, but is not needed for a pinned thread. Pinning the previous guides gave them an air of being official, which was one of the biggest problems the forum staff was having with them.
If suggestion posters are becoming unreasonable with their responses to critiques, then simply report them, or ignore their thread and move on. If they continue to reject constructive criticism, then the forum staff have the option of locking their thread or issuing them a warning if they are really being abusive.
If a user is indicating that they are reporting another user, then their post should be reported as a rule violation. Users are not allowed to do that.
- sunperp
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Retired StaffThat has never been a problem in this section, or in any part of the Discussion section for as long as I have been a moderator and actually able to see reports as they come in. We've had a few bad users do it here and there, but they are one off instances that do not happen enough to warrant putting something into stickied guidelines. And if we do see someone abusing the reporting system, we have measures that we take against it. Those users have never lasted long, either because they have stopped posting on their own accord or because they did enough that action was taken against them.
@chrispang: The old threads being stickied didn't actually help cut down on any of that. I was around before the first one was stickied and I am here now after the second one and the FTC thread was unstickied. There hasn't really been any widespread change in thread quality because of those threads existing, there were always going to be the 5% of people willing to put in the extra effort to make a great idea and the 95% of people who would not. That has never changed.
As for the idea of a standardized format it is something I know has been discussed in the past. That said, I believe we decided against it because it:
Updated the OP with a 7th guideline for making suggestions. Haven't gotten around to any formatting advice yet.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
The purpose of this is not to tell the OP not to report posts they disagree with. The root issue is "Don't get upset or discouraged. This forum has disagreements, and that's alright. It's okay to disagree, it's okay to be wrong, and it's okay for others to be wrong." In essence, helping new users more easily adapt to this forum's culture, which has quite a bit of disagreement. Some of this is touched on in "be open to feedback" but that point and its description do not entirely get this across. I'm not sure it's really a "guideline" but I do think it's important.
If we're really going to get rid of all specific notions of etiquette, I think we should attempt to look at what these specific rules were actually trying to get across. That's what's actually important to convey to new arrivals.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Toxic? You can also get a different kind of toxic if you don't teach people what does and doesn't work for a suggestion. I get this is supposed to be a "have fun with it" forum, but there are some scenarios that posters put themselves into where they just can't win (and blame everyone else because they're allergic to humility).
I won't lie, the last guide was so well-written that it could turn a boring kid into a game developer with good ideas. The guide had the power to change your way of thinking. Now we have a new guide, so we're hitting a reset button and need to rebuild the do's and don'ts all over again.
Because there's so much content a suggestion can have compared to other posts on different forums. You're always gonna have negatives no matter the guide, but a guide that ties up every loose end is a good way to go. Theriasis also tells me that she's deeply enraged that her guide was replaced and got banned right after. I don't blame her. At all.
I guess it doesn't, I just thought it would be for good measure to remind people that disagreeing critics aren't "trolls" that need to be reported.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
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ModeratorAs I have already stated, if thread posters are becoming unreasonable with their responses, just report them and move on. If they are not listening to constructive criticism, just move onto the next suggestion thread.
No, we don't. As I have stated several times, so long as people follow the forum rules, let them post suggestions however they want. If repliers are upset about how a suggestion is formatted or its lack of content, they can provide constructive criticism or move on to the next suggestion.
I see just as much varied content in the various Mods sub-forums as I do in the Suggestions forum, but I see no constant hammering of thread posters about how they are formatting their threads or their lack of following a posting guide.
The moderators have been discussing the possibility of simplifying the pinned guides for a while now. The replacement was pushed through due to the arguing in the previous Read This guide. The replacement was in no way influenced by the change in status of Theriasis -- at some point the simplified guide would have been pushed through anyway.
- sunperp
I've been looking through this guide and its posts, trying to figure out why Theriasis' wicked good guide was unpinned. And it's just 'cause critics take it too seriously? Her guide was fun to read, even when not suggesting. Why not repin it, but add one paragraph at the top of it to help solve the critic prolem:
NOTE: Remember that this is a guide, so critics shouldn't bash the OP for not abiding by it like it's the US Constitution. What is important for critics to do is analyze the idea itself- you are not critiquing the OP's organization skills or thier ability to utilize capital letters properly. If a suggestion breaks the Rules, though, just send a report and be on your merry way. Happy reading!
(That was basically a rephrase of one of the guidelines on this OP.)
Console Battle is two games rolled into one: gambling (whether or not you get one of the OP weapons) and betting (which teammate won't turn on you, since teaming is pretty much a requirement to kill off another team)! Of course, it's not all chance; at its core, Battle is about triumphing and defeating other players... by kicking them out if they win to make yourself feel better.
Some
(quality)Fair enough I guess, but sadly the obvious joke threaders get off scot-free.
I'm not saying this guide needs to replicate the old one. But there are still some missing essentials. How to search, how to post images, how to format/make images, all that stuff. Though I know Badprenup said he would get to that and that he was busy and all.
There's nothing stopping you guys from adding more content to the guides of the other forums if you wanted. If that's even needed. Also, I'm sure Theriasis would have happily made you guys a third guide that was just as short as this one, while still keeping it very interesting, because she has that magic touch with everything she says. Not that I'm dissing Badprenup's guide.
I think every single megathread is susceptible to arguing of some kind. There's always gonna be something people disagree on. It's not my place to tell mods how they should do things, but a lot of us were still pretty enraged at the weeks of effort in the last guide. It all just happened so fast. Theriasis told me she had one of those Adminstrative Review bans for constant nasty posting (same one that I got), which was confusing because I didn't see her post that often anyway. Eh, still not my place to judge.
You guys mentioned how a guide like this shouldn't have a hall of fame, but could we still have one or two examples of the best threads to show people? And no, one of the threads doesn't have to be mine.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
Giving suggesters complete freedom isn't entirely a good thing. Example:
"I suggest we put in HerobreeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN in game!!!! Players want him in the game so add him because my idea is smart. Please share my views and agree with me!"
That freedom is gonna get that poster nothing but "no support" and "let this crappypasta die thanks". Also, I think this guide needs to list the threads that aren't allowed here. Megathreads, angry rant threads, non-suggestions, etc.
I've been trying to avoid commenting on people who set themselves up for failure, because the only response would be "Let them post whatever they want." I don't think it is a productive line of thought.
I think that if they're not allowed, they should be in the rules, not the guidelines.
Angry rant threads are taken care of by the global rules, I'm pretty sure. Megathreads, which I believe are defined as threads that ask for others to suggest things, are not in the rules when as far as I'm aware, they should be. Non-suggestions are... iffy. What is a "non-suggestion" that wouldn't be a "wrong forum" issue?
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Here's my view on bad suggestions:
If something is obviously bad and you don't want to give it any credibility; the absolute WORST thing you can do is bump it with how bad it is. If something doesn't deserve to exist; then ideally it should be buried around page 10 or 11. Saying "horrible, just horrible, no support!" only acts to bump the thread to page 1 where visibility is high and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
That's the crux of the reason I say "press back and move on", because the more you filter out the bad by just letting it sink; the more the good/worthy suggestions rise to the surface. Sometimes your best move is no move. In this case; lazy wins. pressing back is a button click on a mouse. If you have a 5 button mouse; it's literally a mouse click anywhere (keybinding exeunt); otherwise it's a mouse click in a large button on the browser UI.
Often times, a bad suggestion can be referred to a better-suggested version made by a more competent poster with a quick search. In cases like this; I'd say rules of courtesy still apply. Check to see if the older thread is still active (OP is still posting), and post a link to that thread in a report. I wouldn't recommend telling the bad OP because that can be misconstrued as mini-modding. In a worst case; the mods can actually add the link when they lock the thread.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
This doesn't work in the most ideal way. For two reasons.
1.) Can you convince an entire forum of people to NOT bump the stupid threads?
2.) How will Captain Uncreative know his suggestion is bad unless someone lets him know?
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
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Retired Staff1) You're right, we can't. But the issue is more that the regular users who should know better continue to bump bad threads. If 1-2 people bump it, fine we can't do anything about it. But those still wind up falling to the back pages faster than if 2 dozen people all post to say an idea is bad, keeping it on the front page for a week or more. Besides, if you choose to ignore the bad thread, it doesn't matter if it is on the front page or not. It isn't your problem, and there are 20 other threads on just the front page you can devote your attention to. Or you can find an older thread and post with something to contribute to discussion, bringing it to the front and pushing the bad thread further down and giving an older thread that is more deserving of discussion another round.
2) Three part answer. First part is "who cares?". Why is it so important to tell someone that you think their thread sucks? I get that people don't learn unless you teach them but this isn't exactly a major issue because of the other two parts to the answer.
The second part is related to your first question. The 1-2 people that are probably going to respond to a suggestion no matter what. If they already said an idea is bad, what is saying it again going to do? It probably won't help them learn anymore than the other 2 posts did. It probably will make the person feel crappy though, or if they actually are a troll you're just giving them what they want. Having everyone dogpile on a suggestion to say it is bad does more harm than good.
Third part is the fact that they will likely get a couple replies and then nobody else responds so it falls to older pages. That should be enough combined with the couple people that will respond anyways. Either they will get it at that point or they won't.
Half of the problems in this section would not exist if users didn't put so much effort into "teaching" people how to make suggestions. It basically only results in feeding what they believe are potential trolls and then complaining about a troll problem. If they instead focused on finding good ideas and encouraging those the entire section would be better for it.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
You don't need to flat out tell them that their thread sucks... Some people who are suggestionally challenged are posting sincerely. If everyone ignores them, how will they know how good/bad their ideas are?
I'm actually talking about those first few posters. Yes, if the point is made, the posts should stop. Sadly that's almost never the case as people never think that out.
Double edged sword. No matter how good you make a thread, some suggestions just never ever work. Cars and fighter jets are terrible. A "Herobrine bosssssss" is terrible. Guns and grenades are horribad. Giving them the freedom to make those posts ends in the same way regardless of whatever guide exists. Though the last guide at least told you why these ideas were crappy, and if those ideas had some form redemption, they would be removed from the list.
As for a "troll problem", I've only seen that happen if the poster was a super obvious joke threader, which still cover this forum. There's always fresh accounts just for that very reason. I don't mean for any of this to sound like I'm undermining the mods, but still. Also, why was the critics guide removed?
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
This to the Nth degree. It's so hard for me to not name names here. One of them being Bar- nope nevermind.
Is this guide gonna get the 'how to search properly' thing? That's one of the most important things here. It might actually stop those "we n33d paint >=(" threads. By the way, Theriasis told me on Steam that she saw this guide and it filled her with all kinds of depression. Anyway, this guide should also have a few arguments listed that never work.
And a mention that you shouldn't diarrhea out a thread if you get tears from negative feedback.
At that point, I'd recommend "pick your battles", if the poster is sincere; then they will appreciate some helpful feedback. If no one is helping; then break the bystander effect and give your two cents. I've actually taken more than one bad suggestion and flipped it into a useful/good one.
I don't try to make a habit of predicting the user base. It's too large, too amorphous. I can only speak about things that you can control. If I can reach even one person that understands that post-bumping a baddy is self-defeating; then I can propagate a chain reaction. The idea is to make the concept a meme. Make it viral. If you do it, and enough people respect you; then they'll do the same. Then their friends will do the same. Etc.
Sure, you can't control the internet, and I wouldn't dream of stating so in any case; but if you can encourage and influence one, then you can start a positive chain reaction.
I'd actually like to see the window for similar thread widened from 1 month to 6 months.
Unrelated, there are actually a lot of really well made gun and grenade threads. I've participated in some. The issue is that the concept is natively polarizing; so you either love it or hate it. Guns are the Seinfeld of the Suggestion Forum.
FTC was removed due to three factors. 1) Lack of regular views. 2) Redundant with current guidelines, 3) Confusion (after my attempts to diffuse it) as to whether FTC is a rule (it isn't) or not.
Even if it's an unofficial guideline, the fact that it was pinned kind of sent a mixed message.
As I said before though, it was on moderator whim that it was pinned. It's by moderator whim that it's removed again.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
Trust me when I say that a guide is needed. The only thing people need more than artistic freedom is constraint.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)