...and if you think we should have a list of bad suggestions, you should make that case.
I really doubt that we are going to allow a list of "bad suggestions" to be added. People have the right to post whatever suggestions they want, so long as they follow the forum rules. As I have stated before, if people do not like those suggestions and can't provide constructive criticism, they are free to not post or respond in those threads.
I really doubt that we are going to allow a list of "bad suggestions" to be added. People have the right to post whatever suggestions they want, so long as they follow the forum rules. As I have stated before, if people do not like those suggestions and can't provide constructive criticism, they are free to not post or respond in those threads.
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you and that's the point I was trying to make. What I was saying there was that I expect anyone who does seriously believe such a list to make their case, and I would encourage them to do so.
This is especially important considering that the whole thing we're discussing in the first place is that we should encourage people to make threads for their ideas even if they are generally disliked. It would be a bit hypocritical to then dissuade people from doing the same thing in posts regarding this guide, wouldn't it? Obviously regurgitating the same old points is just spam at this point, but if somebody has something new to add they should probably add it.
I say this as someone who is currently on the side of the general consensus. In the old guide I was arguing for this on the other side of the fence - they had a list like this and most everyone was seriously opposed to my belief that it was actually a bad thing.
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We should still allow suggestions that changes be reverted, even though they almost always give quite silly reasons to be removed. We won't restrict any specific suggestions or types of suggestions from being posted unless they violate forum rules, nor will we issue guidelines discouraging them.
Besides the fact that Mojang totally has changed our reverted things based on negative reception (I recall them reverting a change with mob spawners or something that broke mob farms from a while back), it tells them that people dislike the change, which may prompt then to find further ways to improve a feature without reverting it.
But the biggest reason is because blocking specific ideas or types of ideas encourages stupid lazy criticism. The type of criticism where people say "this idea is on an arbitrary list so it is bad". That criticism already doesn't follow some of the critic guidelines (like thinking for yourself), but much more importantly it is lazy, worthless criticism that isn't really criticizing the idea in it's entirety, but rather the base core concept over something totally arbitrary.
If you dislike the specific idea or the core concept behind it you should be able to articulate why in your own words formed by your own opinions. If you can't muster that you probably shouldn't be attempting to offer criticism at all in my opinion. Thinking for yourself is like the bare minimum of giving good criticism after all.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
Now I would like to see an off-OP appendix (in-thread, but off-OP) for more commonly criticized suggestions and how to improve them out the gate.
This would include outlandish suggestions, suggestions with little forethought, little explanation of mechanics/benefits, etc.
Examples include:
thirst, temperature, locks, personal chests, power plants (nuclear or otherwise).
While I don't think these ideas are bad or should be denied outright, I do see that they're often applied without reasonable discourse and are often lampooned; so a primer on them could be useful. I have several points ready for thirst and temperature because explaining it in every thread is beginning to feel recumbent and ungainly.
Now I would like to see an off-OP appendix (in-thread, but off-OP) for more commonly criticized suggestions and how to improve them out the gate.
This would include outlandish suggestions, suggestions with little forethought, little explanation of mechanics/benefits, etc.
Examples include:
thirst, temperature, locks, personal chests, power plants (nuclear or otherwise).
While I don't think these ideas are bad or should be denied outright, I do see that they're often applied without reasonable discourse and are often lampooned; so a primer on them could be useful. I have several points ready for thirst and temperature because explaining it in every thread is beginning to feel recumbent and ungainly.
Also: Flying! Probably should have sections on OP weapons, OP mobs/bosses, and Random Death Events. And a discussion of the difference between a (good) suggestion for vanilla, and a (good) mod concept.
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I did some CraftTweaker scripts for Mystical Agriculture. They fill in a couple of small gaps in MA, and also let you make or duplicate not only vanilla plants, but the blocks, plants and wood from Quark and Biomes O'Plenty. Also spawn eggs for most vanilla mobs! The scripts are here on Github.
I'm not a fan of the idea because it subjectively assumes ideas X, Y, and Z are bad and then subjectively says they will be better with A, B, and C changed. That is not the point of this thread and it will never be intended for that. I don't think any part of this thread should be directed towards specific ideas or suggestions, then we get back into some of the original problems we had with the old thread, and it stops being focused on the macro scale and switches to the micro scale.
I am more than willing to discuss it but I want to make my stance on it known now.
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I'm not a fan of the idea because it subjectively assumes ideas X, Y, and Z are bad and then subjectively says they will be better with A, B, and C changed. That is not the point of this thread and it will never be intended for that. I don't think any part of this thread should be directed towards specific ideas or suggestions, then we get back into some of the original problems we had with the old thread, and it stops being focused on the macro scale and switches to the micro scale.
I am more than willing to discuss it but I want to make my stance on it known now.
Some things are bad. That's not a terrible thing to say. There's nothing wrong with it. It is simply a statement that describes reality. Though as a starting point, something for beginners as this thread is trying to be for? I'd say that micro-scale arguments don't fit into it, even if we'd love beginners to know them. It's more something for those who would like to be here a while or would like to earnestly put effort into one of those suggestions.
However, given the views of the moderators and recent history, if anyone's going to do something like this, they'd better do it right. That means avoiding the concept of "objectively bad suggestions," regardless of one's views. That's an easy sacrifice for the sake of utility, though, so it shouldn't be that big of an issue.
Perhaps a separate "controversial suggestions" thread, with certain suggestions labeled with typical arguments for and against (whether you consider those arguments bad or not), with an attempt to be fair and not one-sided about them. The point would not be to say that you shouldn't do X suggestion... It's just there to show that a certain suggestion has history that one may be able to learn from. It'd also not say that it'd be better with A, B, and C, just that there are certain facets that are generally argued that you may want to work around, however you may want to do that. Or not if you don't consider them an issue, but then you should probably expect people to mention them. You wouldn't need to read the thread, and suggestions that are made in full ignorance of it are perfectly acceptable, but if you learn from it you may be able to make something better.
You could use it as a reference to try and put together suggestion that would be seen as great for all, and address all of the issues that people generally have with it.
"Why didn't you read this thread you ignorant buffoon" would not be the point. But if you were to say "hey, there's some things you may want to consider for your suggestion that are in this thread," that would be fine. Inspiration and direction with issues in mind, not anything objective to force on people.
Yeah, the point I was getting at wasn't to pigeon hole any suggestion as bad; but to create a "before you make this suggestion" thread showing a lot of common pitfalls that previous attempts have had; and a few questions that the suggester should seriously consider or answer before he even presses "New Thread", but having a mini-thread would be a no-go, if only because it fragments the discussion.
But yeah, I didn't mean for it to become a representation of "this is why you shouldn't", but more of a "this is what you should look out for if you do post". A lot of suggestions I'd add to the list are things I actually would like to see; but issues that haven't been resolved prevent my wholesale support. (dynamic lighting as a primary example).
A lof of suggestions have been able to answer the questions I ask in a thought-provoking/creative manner (many gun threads). While I don't really like guns in Minecraft, some suggestions here have given me pause and had me considering the virtues of the suggestion. While a single suggestion may not have changed my mind; it gave me food for thought (I think one gun suggestion even did sway me.)
The hope is that the list; if employed properly and impartially; could be a helpful resource that gives novice suggesters a bit of advice on what topics to avoid; and veteran suggesters a heads-up on known issues with these topics.
Once upon a time in FTC, I made a section speaking about:
use a mod to prototype a suggestion.
A player with the knowledge and ability to mod could prototype a suggestion; and then see how radical the changes are. This could be useful before making a suggestion. Or for another poster to create a mod prototype to show the proposed suggestion.
This might be some grey-area stuff; as it's not saying "there's a mod for that", and not saying "it should be a mod", but more saying "let's make a proof-of-concept to see if the suggestion holds weight".
Some things are bad. That's not a terrible thing to say. There's nothing wrong with it. It is simply a statement that describes reality. Though as a starting point, something for beginners as this thread is trying to be for? I'd say that micro-scale arguments don't fit into it, even if we'd love beginners to know them. It's more something for those who would like to be here a while or would like to earnestly put effort into one of those suggestions.
I wish more people understood this viewpoint, instead of seeing it in the most extreme one-sided "all or nothing" way of thinking. Going "suggest whatever you want =D" is not a full positive in a forum like this. Not with things that already negatively established even outside of this forum.
Some suggestions are a permanent no-win situation, no matter how you try to rationalize yourself out of it, or blame the forum for "just not getting it!"
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The Unofficial Suggestion Guide - Everything you need to know to not make goofy mistakes in a suggestion! Honestly though, you should really go there.
Perhaps a separate "controversial suggestions" thread, with certain suggestions labeled with typical arguments for and against (whether you consider those arguments bad or not), with an attempt to be fair and not one-sided about them. The point would not be to say that you shouldn't do X suggestion... It's just there to show that a certain suggestion has history that one may be able to learn from. It'd also not say that it'd be better with A, B, and C, just that there are certain facets that are generally argued that you may want to work around, however you may want to do that. Or not if you don't consider them an issue, but then you should probably expect people to mention them. You wouldn't need to read the thread, and suggestions that are made in full ignorance of it are perfectly acceptable, but if you learn from it you may be able to make something better.
If someone wants to try that, then they are free to put that together and see how it works out -- but it would likely have to remain strictly unofficial and unpinned. One of the reasons why we initially took notice with the old guide thread (and decided to look into creating a simpler one) was the incessant arguing in that thread about whether some particular suggestion was worthy of being added to the hall of shame. If another thread was created, the OP would need to make sure the thread did not fall into that same state.
If I were to do it, I'd add the proponent and critical views of whatever thread. I'd want the merits and demerits of each topic to be well known and adjusted for according to feedback. Whether a suggestion is loved or hated doesn't change its absolute state as a polarizing and controversial idea.
Again, some people want thirst. I hate the idea; but I'm not going to say that my idea has any bearing outside of personal opinion; as rational and objective as I attempt to make it. Some people want eighth-blocks, an idea I'd kill for. It's not for everyone, and that opinion need be stated as well.
If I begin frequenting these forums with any amount of regularity, I might consider maintaining such a page. But a thread like that needs to have 1) a blessing from moderators that it won't be closed/moved for being off-topic or off-section as it is part of suggestions. 2) A single trusted non-mod maintainer who can remain impartial. There's a few people I'd personally choose for a case of impartiality (no offense if I don't state you): anonthemouse (does he still visit here?!) and chameleonred5 (should either agree).
It's a slogging of an undertaking; and it requires someone that can respond on a daily basis; something I'm confident I won't be able to do.
Some things are bad. That's not a terrible thing to say. There's nothing wrong with it. It is simply a statement that describes reality.
You make it sound so easy to judge things as good or bad when the whole point is that this is subjective.
That means avoiding the concept of "objectively bad suggestions," regardless of one's views. That's an easy sacrifice for the sake of utility, though, so it shouldn't be that big of an issue.
I'm genuinely surprised you're using the term "objectively bad suggestions" and are standing by it. I think I need somebody to sit down and explain it to me.
Perhaps a separate "controversial suggestions" thread, with certain suggestions labeled with typical arguments for and against (whether you consider those arguments bad or not), with an attempt to be fair and not one-sided about them. The point would not be to say that you shouldn't do X suggestion... It's just there to show that a certain suggestion has history that one may be able to learn from. It'd also not say that it'd be better with A, B, and C, just that there are certain facets that are generally argued that you may want to work around, however you may want to do that. Or not if you don't consider them an issue, but then you should probably expect people to mention them. You wouldn't need to read the thread, and suggestions that are made in full ignorance of it are perfectly acceptable, but if you learn from it you may be able to make something better.
You can't choose what kind of culture the thread fosters. "Eh you can read it if you want but if you don't nobody will mind" is pretty nice in theory. But it will never happen. You'll get exactly what you got with 2.0 and FTC, which was "Oh my God did you even read that thread here I'll quote it now go read it", as if it's a holy book.
"Why didn't you read this thread you ignorant buffoon" would not be the point. But if you were to say "hey, there's some things you may want to consider for your suggestion that are in this thread," that would be fine. Inspiration and direction with issues in mind, not anything objective to force on people.
It's great and all that it wouldn't be the point, but whether or not it's the point is completely irrelevant to what will actually happen in the real world.
I don't like it. The point should be to have guides which teach people how to think and then apply all that thinking power to make suggestions. The point should not be to tell people what specifically they probably shouldn't be writing in their threads. And that is the inevitable outcome of such a thread whether you intend it or not.
If/when such a thread exists, expect a lot of complaining from my end over specific details nobody else really cares about. Just like the good old days.
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I don't doubt that some people could remain impartial (and to my knowledge no, anonthemouse has since moved on), but that isn't the issue that I see. I see the issue as that person can control themself, but cannot control everyone else. This thread is different because it is maintained by forum staff, mostly sunperp and myself. We have the ability to prevent others from derailing this thread into arguments or pointless squabbling over minute details, which we have been doing. Outside of a couple of users who tend to pop into this thread randomly to repeat that they dislike it (without contributing any real feedback, which is a touch ironic because those users often tout themselves as critics), this thread mostly stays on topic now that the initial humbugging has died down.
I don't have a problem with an unofficial thread provided they are active, remain on topic, and report things that are attempting to derail the thread as soon as they appear.
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The atmosphere of such a thread can also be shaped by the maintainers, both by setting up straightforward rules beforehand, and by being consistent about pushing back on trouble. Notice, that's "consistent", not "draconian" -- As the staff here clearly demonstrate, simply putting up a hand every time someone edges over the line is much more effective than waiting until someone steps clear over and then going in with swinging fists.
An example of a useful rule would be: Saying just "this is bad because it's OP/useless/too hard/bad-style" is not a contribution. If you want an idea added to The List, you need to actually write up the reasons why it's problematic, and possible ways an example of that idea could be "rescued". Examples from the idea's use in existing mods would be on-topic and encouraged, these being actual use-cases that provide experience with the concept.
To give a summarized example for flying (because I've used several versions from various mods):
The entry for flight would start by noting issues like lolflying, eliminating the challenges of landscape and falls into caves, making fences/moats/walls useless, easy escape from threats, PvP ambush or spying, trivializing the End battle, and so on.
Then it would discuss ways that some of those could be countered, with examples from mods such as: EvilCraft's brooms (shooting down knocks you off the broom, so can being hit by missiles, limited maneuverability, crashing hurts, suffocation hazard), or Blood Magic's Air sigil (constant clicking of the tool to keep going, awkward aiming) and Phantom Bridge sigil (floor under you prevents shooting down, mobs can use and/or break bridge, fluids can be trouble, getting up or down is tricky), and so on.
Counterexamples there might be Thaumcraft's Thaumaturgic Harness, where the attempts at constraint (fuel requirements, expense, needing extra upgrades) turned out to be ineffectual, or Mystical Agriculture's Supremium Armor, (extra speed and fall resistance for creative-like flight), which comes into play after the rest of the mod has made its great expense nearly irrelevant.
The rules should also underline some general points: E.g., a good mod idea is not necessarily a good suggestion for vanilla; infinite sandbox means expense or rarity do not balance an OP concept; needs to work in multiple difficulties and game contexts.
I did some CraftTweaker scripts for Mystical Agriculture. They fill in a couple of small gaps in MA, and also let you make or duplicate not only vanilla plants, but the blocks, plants and wood from Quark and Biomes O'Plenty. Also spawn eggs for most vanilla mobs! The scripts are here on Github.
You make it sound so easy to judge things as good or bad when the whole point is that this is subjective.
I'm genuinely surprised you're using the term "objectively bad suggestions" and are standing by it. I think I need somebody to sit down and explain it to me.
I like having this conversation, because it's rather interesting and has lots of depth (at least three months' worth of material), but this is not the appropriate place for it. Nor would this proposed thread be.
You can't choose what kind of culture the thread fosters. "Eh you can read it if you want but if you don't nobody will mind" is pretty nice in theory. But it will never happen. You'll get exactly what you got with 2.0 and FTC, which was "Oh my God did you even read that thread here I'll quote it now go read it", as if it's a holy book. It's great and all that it wouldn't be the point, but whether or not it's the point is completely irrelevant to what will actually happen in the real world.
Of course I can decide what culture the thread fosters. That's what the mods do for this thread. Setting absolute limits backed by absolute power is sort of how this operates. The mods have decided you can't point to a thread and say "follow this holy book." If the thread is made, it will say that. I expect that the mods will enforce it. Just like they'd probably shut down anyone who says "you must follow this" for this very thread.
I don't like it. The point should be to have guides which teach people how to think and then apply all that thinking power to make suggestions. The point should not be to tell people what specifically they probably shouldn't be writing in their threads. And that is the inevitable outcome of such a thread whether you intend it or not.
I can teach a child logic but that will not make them capable of knowing physics. There are quite a few concepts that do not immediately occur even when you teach someone how to think. Such is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. People shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel every time they wish to attempt one of these suggestions, and if they know a suggestion's arguments they may be able to discover something that hadn't previously occurred to anyone.
If/when such a thread exists, expect a lot of complaining from my end over specific details nobody else really cares about. Just like the good old days.
It'd probably be welcome so long as it was on topic and not flaming.
If I were to do it, I'd add the proponent and critical views of whatever thread. I'd want the merits and demerits of each topic to be well known and adjusted for according to feedback. Whether a suggestion is loved or hated doesn't change its absolute state as a polarizing and controversial idea.
Again, some people want thirst. I hate the idea; but I'm not going to say that my idea has any bearing outside of personal opinion; as rational and objective as I attempt to make it. Some people want eighth-blocks, an idea I'd kill for. It's not for everyone, and that opinion need be stated as well.
If I begin frequenting these forums with any amount of regularity, I might consider maintaining such a page. But a thread like that needs to have 1) a blessing from moderators that it won't be closed/moved for being off-topic or off-section as it is part of suggestions. 2) A single trusted non-mod maintainer who can remain impartial. There's a few people I'd personally choose for a case of impartiality (no offense if I don't state you): anonthemouse (does he still visit here?!) and chameleonred5 (should either agree).
It's a slogging of an undertaking; and it requires someone that can respond on a daily basis; something I'm confident I won't be able to do.
It sounds fun to maintain, though time-consuming. I'll see if I can draw something up.
Well there, that is a thing that is happening I guess. I look forward to reading it and we (the moderators of this section) will do our part to keep it civil provided the basic guidelines for contributing to it are fair and don't violate any forum rules (you cannot attempt to restrict anyone from posting for any reason is an example, anyone getting off topic or derailing the thread should be reported so staff can resolve it).
And if it becomes an issue again where people are citing that a suggestion is in this thread is automatically bad and do not contribute to the actual discussion, this new thread may be shut down without any second (third, kind of) chances. Finally, the top of the thread should at least have some mention that while it is not a suggestion thread it was made with permission from forum staff (I don't want to drown in reports saying "not a suggestion") and it must be made clear it is unofficial.
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I'm actually irked when people just copypasta FTC as some kind of writ as I constant warned against it in FTC; it completely defeats the point of thinking for yourself if you simply copy what someone else has said.
My proposed format is to create an objective-based pro/con list per topic; linking (if necessary) to child posts in the thread in case a pro or con gets a bit unweildy to word in bullet point.
It's not supposed to be a "this idea is good because X and bad because Y" but more granular on "the potential pros are X", "potential cons to consider/work with are Y". It's a small linguistic difference; but the effect is manifold.
When you're no longer discouraged from making bad threads; but instead encouraged to research known issues; it allows the suggester to come better prepared to make his suggestion.
The issue comes with people listing "because it's cool" as a pro. Unverifiable subjective preference like that shouldn't be the basis of a pro. "because it's bad" also couldn't be used as a con. "A is cool because it's A" would fail because it's self-referential. "A is cool because it increases diversity" would be a pro as "increased diversity of ___". For people with my mindset who enjoy sentence decomposition; it's an enjoyable hobby.
You make it sound so easy to judge things as good or bad when the whole point is that this is subjective.
Subjective or not, some ideas just fail. People don't want to monitor some troll temperature bar which stops them from being able to live in the desert or taigas. All because the OP thought "well umm... realism!" People don't want to bring inventory clogging water bottles because Mojang thought "thirst bar would boost gameplay! smart thoughts!"
I'm genuinely surprised you're using the term "objectively bad suggestions" and are standing by it. I think I need somebody to sit down and explain it to me.
Not to speak for him, but he did put the term in quotes. There doesn't need to be a list of hated suggestions, which I would love, but would still leave a bad impression for newer posters. There can still be a section that points out how to avoid gameplay breaking things, and what improper lines of logic make your suggestion... not good.
Having them learn the hard way is a bad line of thinking. If we can give them some advice from the start, why not do it? You wouldn't yell at someone for walking on the grass when you could have just had a sign telling them not to do it from the start.
I'm tempted to write up a monograph surveying the balance and gameplay issues evident in Mojang's work on vanilla. The question is, where would be a good place to post it?
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I did some CraftTweaker scripts for Mystical Agriculture. They fill in a couple of small gaps in MA, and also let you make or duplicate not only vanilla plants, but the blocks, plants and wood from Quark and Biomes O'Plenty. Also spawn eggs for most vanilla mobs! The scripts are here on Github.
I'm tempted to write up a monograph surveying the balance and gameplay issues evident in Mojang's work on vanilla. The question is, where would be a good place to post it?
Best starting place is minecraft discussion->discussion. However, be prepared for feedback and argument.
If it fits into minecraft suggestions or is recommended to be place in suggestions; report it for move.
I really doubt that we are going to allow a list of "bad suggestions" to be added. People have the right to post whatever suggestions they want, so long as they follow the forum rules. As I have stated before, if people do not like those suggestions and can't provide constructive criticism, they are free to not post or respond in those threads.
- sunperp
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you and that's the point I was trying to make. What I was saying there was that I expect anyone who does seriously believe such a list to make their case, and I would encourage them to do so.
This is especially important considering that the whole thing we're discussing in the first place is that we should encourage people to make threads for their ideas even if they are generally disliked. It would be a bit hypocritical to then dissuade people from doing the same thing in posts regarding this guide, wouldn't it? Obviously regurgitating the same old points is just spam at this point, but if somebody has something new to add they should probably add it.
I say this as someone who is currently on the side of the general consensus. In the old guide I was arguing for this on the other side of the fence - they had a list like this and most everyone was seriously opposed to my belief that it was actually a bad thing.
We should still allow suggestions that changes be reverted, even though they almost always give quite silly reasons to be removed. We won't restrict any specific suggestions or types of suggestions from being posted unless they violate forum rules, nor will we issue guidelines discouraging them.
Besides the fact that Mojang totally has changed our reverted things based on negative reception (I recall them reverting a change with mob spawners or something that broke mob farms from a while back), it tells them that people dislike the change, which may prompt then to find further ways to improve a feature without reverting it.
But the biggest reason is because blocking specific ideas or types of ideas encourages stupid lazy criticism. The type of criticism where people say "this idea is on an arbitrary list so it is bad". That criticism already doesn't follow some of the critic guidelines (like thinking for yourself), but much more importantly it is lazy, worthless criticism that isn't really criticizing the idea in it's entirety, but rather the base core concept over something totally arbitrary.
If you dislike the specific idea or the core concept behind it you should be able to articulate why in your own words formed by your own opinions. If you can't muster that you probably shouldn't be attempting to offer criticism at all in my opinion. Thinking for yourself is like the bare minimum of giving good criticism after all.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
Now I would like to see an off-OP appendix (in-thread, but off-OP) for more commonly criticized suggestions and how to improve them out the gate.
This would include outlandish suggestions, suggestions with little forethought, little explanation of mechanics/benefits, etc.
Examples include:
thirst, temperature, locks, personal chests, power plants (nuclear or otherwise).
While I don't think these ideas are bad or should be denied outright, I do see that they're often applied without reasonable discourse and are often lampooned; so a primer on them could be useful. I have several points ready for thirst and temperature because explaining it in every thread is beginning to feel recumbent and ungainly.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
Also: Flying! Probably should have sections on OP weapons, OP mobs/bosses, and Random Death Events. And a discussion of the difference between a (good) suggestion for vanilla, and a (good) mod concept.
I'm not a fan of the idea because it subjectively assumes ideas X, Y, and Z are bad and then subjectively says they will be better with A, B, and C changed. That is not the point of this thread and it will never be intended for that. I don't think any part of this thread should be directed towards specific ideas or suggestions, then we get back into some of the original problems we had with the old thread, and it stops being focused on the macro scale and switches to the micro scale.
I am more than willing to discuss it but I want to make my stance on it known now.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
Some things are bad. That's not a terrible thing to say. There's nothing wrong with it. It is simply a statement that describes reality. Though as a starting point, something for beginners as this thread is trying to be for? I'd say that micro-scale arguments don't fit into it, even if we'd love beginners to know them. It's more something for those who would like to be here a while or would like to earnestly put effort into one of those suggestions.
However, given the views of the moderators and recent history, if anyone's going to do something like this, they'd better do it right. That means avoiding the concept of "objectively bad suggestions," regardless of one's views. That's an easy sacrifice for the sake of utility, though, so it shouldn't be that big of an issue.
Perhaps a separate "controversial suggestions" thread, with certain suggestions labeled with typical arguments for and against (whether you consider those arguments bad or not), with an attempt to be fair and not one-sided about them. The point would not be to say that you shouldn't do X suggestion... It's just there to show that a certain suggestion has history that one may be able to learn from. It'd also not say that it'd be better with A, B, and C, just that there are certain facets that are generally argued that you may want to work around, however you may want to do that. Or not if you don't consider them an issue, but then you should probably expect people to mention them. You wouldn't need to read the thread, and suggestions that are made in full ignorance of it are perfectly acceptable, but if you learn from it you may be able to make something better.
You could use it as a reference to try and put together suggestion that would be seen as great for all, and address all of the issues that people generally have with it.
"Why didn't you read this thread you ignorant buffoon" would not be the point. But if you were to say "hey, there's some things you may want to consider for your suggestion that are in this thread," that would be fine. Inspiration and direction with issues in mind, not anything objective to force on people.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Yeah, the point I was getting at wasn't to pigeon hole any suggestion as bad; but to create a "before you make this suggestion" thread showing a lot of common pitfalls that previous attempts have had; and a few questions that the suggester should seriously consider or answer before he even presses "New Thread", but having a mini-thread would be a no-go, if only because it fragments the discussion.
But yeah, I didn't mean for it to become a representation of "this is why you shouldn't", but more of a "this is what you should look out for if you do post". A lot of suggestions I'd add to the list are things I actually would like to see; but issues that haven't been resolved prevent my wholesale support. (dynamic lighting as a primary example).
A lof of suggestions have been able to answer the questions I ask in a thought-provoking/creative manner (many gun threads). While I don't really like guns in Minecraft, some suggestions here have given me pause and had me considering the virtues of the suggestion. While a single suggestion may not have changed my mind; it gave me food for thought (I think one gun suggestion even did sway me.)
The hope is that the list; if employed properly and impartially; could be a helpful resource that gives novice suggesters a bit of advice on what topics to avoid; and veteran suggesters a heads-up on known issues with these topics.
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Once upon a time in FTC, I made a section speaking about:
use a mod to prototype a suggestion.
A player with the knowledge and ability to mod could prototype a suggestion; and then see how radical the changes are. This could be useful before making a suggestion. Or for another poster to create a mod prototype to show the proposed suggestion.
This might be some grey-area stuff; as it's not saying "there's a mod for that", and not saying "it should be a mod", but more saying "let's make a proof-of-concept to see if the suggestion holds weight".
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I wish more people understood this viewpoint, instead of seeing it in the most extreme one-sided "all or nothing" way of thinking. Going "suggest whatever you want =D" is not a full positive in a forum like this. Not with things that already negatively established even outside of this forum.
Some suggestions are a permanent no-win situation, no matter how you try to rationalize yourself out of it, or blame the forum for "just not getting it!"
The Unofficial Suggestion Guide - Everything you need to know to not make goofy mistakes in a suggestion! Honestly though, you should really go there.
If someone wants to try that, then they are free to put that together and see how it works out -- but it would likely have to remain strictly unofficial and unpinned. One of the reasons why we initially took notice with the old guide thread (and decided to look into creating a simpler one) was the incessant arguing in that thread about whether some particular suggestion was worthy of being added to the hall of shame. If another thread was created, the OP would need to make sure the thread did not fall into that same state.
- sunperp
If I were to do it, I'd add the proponent and critical views of whatever thread. I'd want the merits and demerits of each topic to be well known and adjusted for according to feedback. Whether a suggestion is loved or hated doesn't change its absolute state as a polarizing and controversial idea.
Again, some people want thirst. I hate the idea; but I'm not going to say that my idea has any bearing outside of personal opinion; as rational and objective as I attempt to make it. Some people want eighth-blocks, an idea I'd kill for. It's not for everyone, and that opinion need be stated as well.
If I begin frequenting these forums with any amount of regularity, I might consider maintaining such a page. But a thread like that needs to have 1) a blessing from moderators that it won't be closed/moved for being off-topic or off-section as it is part of suggestions. 2) A single trusted non-mod maintainer who can remain impartial. There's a few people I'd personally choose for a case of impartiality (no offense if I don't state you): anonthemouse (does he still visit here?!) and chameleonred5 (should either agree).
It's a slogging of an undertaking; and it requires someone that can respond on a daily basis; something I'm confident I won't be able to do.
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You make it sound so easy to judge things as good or bad when the whole point is that this is subjective.
I'm genuinely surprised you're using the term "objectively bad suggestions" and are standing by it. I think I need somebody to sit down and explain it to me.
You can't choose what kind of culture the thread fosters. "Eh you can read it if you want but if you don't nobody will mind" is pretty nice in theory. But it will never happen. You'll get exactly what you got with 2.0 and FTC, which was "Oh my God did you even read that thread here I'll quote it now go read it", as if it's a holy book.
It's great and all that it wouldn't be the point, but whether or not it's the point is completely irrelevant to what will actually happen in the real world.
I don't like it. The point should be to have guides which teach people how to think and then apply all that thinking power to make suggestions. The point should not be to tell people what specifically they probably shouldn't be writing in their threads. And that is the inevitable outcome of such a thread whether you intend it or not.
If/when such a thread exists, expect a lot of complaining from my end over specific details nobody else really cares about. Just like the good old days.
I don't doubt that some people could remain impartial (and to my knowledge no, anonthemouse has since moved on), but that isn't the issue that I see. I see the issue as that person can control themself, but cannot control everyone else. This thread is different because it is maintained by forum staff, mostly sunperp and myself. We have the ability to prevent others from derailing this thread into arguments or pointless squabbling over minute details, which we have been doing. Outside of a couple of users who tend to pop into this thread randomly to repeat that they dislike it (without contributing any real feedback, which is a touch ironic because those users often tout themselves as critics), this thread mostly stays on topic now that the initial humbugging has died down.
I don't have a problem with an unofficial thread provided they are active, remain on topic, and report things that are attempting to derail the thread as soon as they appear.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
The atmosphere of such a thread can also be shaped by the maintainers, both by setting up straightforward rules beforehand, and by being consistent about pushing back on trouble. Notice, that's "consistent", not "draconian" -- As the staff here clearly demonstrate, simply putting up a hand every time someone edges over the line is much more effective than waiting until someone steps clear over and then going in with swinging fists.
An example of a useful rule would be: Saying just "this is bad because it's OP/useless/too hard/bad-style" is not a contribution. If you want an idea added to The List, you need to actually write up the reasons why it's problematic, and possible ways an example of that idea could be "rescued". Examples from the idea's use in existing mods would be on-topic and encouraged, these being actual use-cases that provide experience with the concept.
To give a summarized example for flying (because I've used several versions from various mods):
The entry for flight would start by noting issues like lolflying, eliminating the challenges of landscape and falls into caves, making fences/moats/walls useless, easy escape from threats, PvP ambush or spying, trivializing the End battle, and so on.
Then it would discuss ways that some of those could be countered, with examples from mods such as: EvilCraft's brooms (shooting down knocks you off the broom, so can being hit by missiles, limited maneuverability, crashing hurts, suffocation hazard), or Blood Magic's Air sigil (constant clicking of the tool to keep going, awkward aiming) and Phantom Bridge sigil (floor under you prevents shooting down, mobs can use and/or break bridge, fluids can be trouble, getting up or down is tricky), and so on.
Counterexamples there might be Thaumcraft's Thaumaturgic Harness, where the attempts at constraint (fuel requirements, expense, needing extra upgrades) turned out to be ineffectual, or Mystical Agriculture's Supremium Armor, (extra speed and fall resistance for creative-like flight), which comes into play after the rest of the mod has made its great expense nearly irrelevant.
The rules should also underline some general points: E.g., a good mod idea is not necessarily a good suggestion for vanilla; infinite sandbox means expense or rarity do not balance an OP concept; needs to work in multiple difficulties and game contexts.
I like having this conversation, because it's rather interesting and has lots of depth (at least three months' worth of material), but this is not the appropriate place for it. Nor would this proposed thread be.
Of course I can decide what culture the thread fosters. That's what the mods do for this thread. Setting absolute limits backed by absolute power is sort of how this operates. The mods have decided you can't point to a thread and say "follow this holy book." If the thread is made, it will say that. I expect that the mods will enforce it. Just like they'd probably shut down anyone who says "you must follow this" for this very thread.
I can teach a child logic but that will not make them capable of knowing physics. There are quite a few concepts that do not immediately occur even when you teach someone how to think. Such is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. People shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel every time they wish to attempt one of these suggestions, and if they know a suggestion's arguments they may be able to discover something that hadn't previously occurred to anyone.
It'd probably be welcome so long as it was on topic and not flaming.
It sounds fun to maintain, though time-consuming. I'll see if I can draw something up.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Well there, that is a thing that is happening I guess. I look forward to reading it and we (the moderators of this section) will do our part to keep it civil provided the basic guidelines for contributing to it are fair and don't violate any forum rules (you cannot attempt to restrict anyone from posting for any reason is an example, anyone getting off topic or derailing the thread should be reported so staff can resolve it).
And if it becomes an issue again where people are citing that a suggestion is in this thread is automatically bad and do not contribute to the actual discussion, this new thread may be shut down without any second (third, kind of) chances. Finally, the top of the thread should at least have some mention that while it is not a suggestion thread it was made with permission from forum staff (I don't want to drown in reports saying "not a suggestion") and it must be made clear it is unofficial.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
I'm actually irked when people just copypasta FTC as some kind of writ as I constant warned against it in FTC; it completely defeats the point of thinking for yourself if you simply copy what someone else has said.
My proposed format is to create an objective-based pro/con list per topic; linking (if necessary) to child posts in the thread in case a pro or con gets a bit unweildy to word in bullet point.
It's not supposed to be a "this idea is good because X and bad because Y" but more granular on "the potential pros are X", "potential cons to consider/work with are Y". It's a small linguistic difference; but the effect is manifold.
When you're no longer discouraged from making bad threads; but instead encouraged to research known issues; it allows the suggester to come better prepared to make his suggestion.
The issue comes with people listing "because it's cool" as a pro. Unverifiable subjective preference like that shouldn't be the basis of a pro. "because it's bad" also couldn't be used as a con. "A is cool because it's A" would fail because it's self-referential. "A is cool because it increases diversity" would be a pro as "increased diversity of ___". For people with my mindset who enjoy sentence decomposition; it's an enjoyable hobby.
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Subjective or not, some ideas just fail. People don't want to monitor some troll temperature bar which stops them from being able to live in the desert or taigas. All because the OP thought "well umm... realism!" People don't want to bring inventory clogging water bottles because Mojang thought "thirst bar would boost gameplay! smart thoughts!"
Not to speak for him, but he did put the term in quotes. There doesn't need to be a list of hated suggestions, which I would love, but would still leave a bad impression for newer posters. There can still be a section that points out how to avoid gameplay breaking things, and what improper lines of logic make your suggestion... not good.
Having them learn the hard way is a bad line of thinking. If we can give them some advice from the start, why not do it? You wouldn't yell at someone for walking on the grass when you could have just had a sign telling them not to do it from the start.
I'm tempted to write up a monograph surveying the balance and gameplay issues evident in Mojang's work on vanilla. The question is, where would be a good place to post it?
Best starting place is minecraft discussion->discussion. However, be prepared for feedback and argument.
If it fits into minecraft suggestions or is recommended to be place in suggestions; report it for move.
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