It's about not completely alienating one audience.
You're never going to succeed there. There's always an audience to alienate. The best you can do is simply not write with the intent to alienate.
I'm not going to retread everything, or try to read Theriasis' mind, but I'm pretty sure, given the thought that went into this (as part of the group who helped plan it) that it was not her intent to alienate, much less anyone else's.
Right, the best way I can allude to this is to imagine you have a wall with gaping holes, large cracks, and small imperfections. Imagine this humble cobbled wall to be the "uhh, I get it" rate of your average user. The problem is you only have one trowel (your ability to write) with which to slurry the wall back to a uniform consistency.
There will always be people that consider the guide dogmatic, fascist, overbearing, patronizing, unnecessary on one side; too complicated, difficult to comprehend, tl;dr on the other. There is no catch all; the most effective tool I've seen is to make special recognition toward outliers, but that's difficult bordering impossible and creates bloat in an already lengthy guide.
You have provided what you consider a reasonable correction though (the first post that spawned the entire page-long discussion), so there's no point in going further there.
I never even thought of the word "audience" when making either of the guides. I just see it as people who want to learn about improving suggestions and people who skip the stickies.
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The Unofficial Suggestion Guide - Everything you need to know to not make goofy mistakes in a suggestion! Honestly though, you should really go there.
I never even thought of the word "audience" when making either of the guides. I just see it as people who want to learn about improving suggestions and people who skip the stickies.
These are not mutually exclusive. People want to learn to improve suggestions but may not take your advice if they think you're calling them idiots. And if your answer to that is that you don't care if they take your advice, I must ask why this thread exists if not to increase the quality of suggestions as much as possible.
I'd say go to walmart and buy your size skin but make sure it's thicker than the one you already have. It is just a guide after all. There's a few tight-fisted moments during the read that could maybe be worked on a bit but overall I don't see any problems. If this was the first guide I'd have some serious complaints though, but this is straightforward without going too far. mostly.
Do you guys even know what you're arguing about anymore? You're having, like, 3 arguments at the same time, and change every few exchanges.
What I got it, Theriasis is answering every question completely validly, but Gamrlord disagrees, and won't give up until Theriasis accepts his opinion.
I'm playing the "change the subject into something a bit more relevant and interactive" card this go-around.
In terms of the conversation between the other two, I gotta admit that I only scan like half of the argument either way; so I'm not invested or read-up enough to interject.
What I will say, though, is that it could've easily gone into PM within the first 2 exchanges with nothing of value being lost from this thread.
"So what if you get 5 extra slots? What if that's not enough? Do we need 10 more? Then another 20?"
is a bit of a slippery slope. Other than that it seems reasonable.
It's less a slippery slope, I think, and more... a prompt suggesting that you consider how many slots are appropriate and why. Wanting more just because you want more is not good enough.
Slippery slope really has more to do with pushing non-sequitur to force an issue that doesn't really exist.
"First you want 5 extra slots, what then? Nukes?!" <-- slippery slope, not really known how nukes comes into the picture.
If you have a predictable chain within causality; not really so. While I do think it's quite obnoxious to increment to death (first 5, but what if we need 10); it does have a reasonably assumed track of continuity. In this case, less slippery slope, and more confirmation bias.
Slippery slope really has more to do with pushing non-sequitur to force an issue that doesn't really exist.
"First you want 5 extra slots, what then? Nukes?!" <-- slippery slope, not really known how nukes comes into the picture.
If you have a predictable chain within causality; not really so. While I do think it's quite obnoxious to increment to death (first 5, but what if we need 10); it does have a reasonably assumed track of continuity. In this case, less slippery slope, and more confirmation bias.
I'm not entirely sure it's reasonable to assume that when people get five more slots they'll demand ten more, and when they get that they'll demand twenty more, and so on ad infinitum. It doesn't have to be completely unrelated to be a slippery slope. It would, for example, be a slippery slope to argue that legalising one drug would lead to even more drugs being legalised. This doesn't seem much different.
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
I suppose you could argue that; but if we're talking from a scene of numeric incrementation; 5 -> 10 -> 20 does seem a likely chain to me. I'm of the school of thought that novelty wears off more quickly than the hype surrounding the novelty. First 5 is enough, then 10 is the new 5. You can extend this to ever-increasingly bombastic levels of super-omega-giga-death-hardcore where "the old hardcore just isn't hardcore enough, so we should do X to make it harder!" Which is a place I derisively must admit I am forced to assume of your average suggester here.
Also, I'm a big nut for the idea of supporting details. Anything can be far fetched until the author goes out of their way to support their assertions. For example: "Here's why we should have specifically 5... Here's why having more than 5 (say 10 or 15) would be bad for gameplay." In which case, the author nips the problem in the bud. Of course, you also have critics that can discuss the merits of having 10 or 15. That's where the discussion comes in.
Just saying "I want 5 more slots because I run out of room all the time!" doesn't go far enough to explain the position as that's a selfish demand; but if the author can wrap it in a way that would positively address a common issue with inventory space (such as solved by a shulker box), then you have a different suggestion and one that escapes the "generally disliked suggestions" section as it actively seeks to avoid the reason it's there.
I do enjoy posts like this. If you're finding mistakes in the guide, you're... actually reading the guide. If only we could have more users like that here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
I'm probably gonna update this guide less and less. I don't know, it just seems like the new accounts/joke threaders are protected while the people who call them out are the ones getting in trouble. There are some super obvious trolls that the mods never seem to spot. This forum was a great place and now it's a poopy playground for alternate accounts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Unofficial Suggestion Guide - Everything you need to know to not make goofy mistakes in a suggestion! Honestly though, you should really go there.
I'm probably gonna update this guide less and less. I don't know, it just seems like the new accounts/joke threaders are protected while the people who call them out are the ones getting in trouble. There are some super obvious trolls that the mods never seem to spot. This forum was a great place and now it's a poopy playground for alternate accounts.
Theriasis for mod 2016.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
You're never going to succeed there. There's always an audience to alienate. The best you can do is simply not write with the intent to alienate.
I'm not going to retread everything, or try to read Theriasis' mind, but I'm pretty sure, given the thought that went into this (as part of the group who helped plan it) that it was not her intent to alienate, much less anyone else's.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Right, the best way I can allude to this is to imagine you have a wall with gaping holes, large cracks, and small imperfections. Imagine this humble cobbled wall to be the "uhh, I get it" rate of your average user. The problem is you only have one trowel (your ability to write) with which to slurry the wall back to a uniform consistency.
There will always be people that consider the guide dogmatic, fascist, overbearing, patronizing, unnecessary on one side; too complicated, difficult to comprehend, tl;dr on the other. There is no catch all; the most effective tool I've seen is to make special recognition toward outliers, but that's difficult bordering impossible and creates bloat in an already lengthy guide.
You have provided what you consider a reasonable correction though (the first post that spawned the entire page-long discussion), so there's no point in going further there.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
I never even thought of the word "audience" when making either of the guides. I just see it as people who want to learn about improving suggestions and people who skip the stickies.
The Unofficial Suggestion Guide - Everything you need to know to not make goofy mistakes in a suggestion! Honestly though, you should really go there.
These are not mutually exclusive. People want to learn to improve suggestions but may not take your advice if they think you're calling them idiots. And if your answer to that is that you don't care if they take your advice, I must ask why this thread exists if not to increase the quality of suggestions as much as possible.
I'd say go to walmart and buy your size skin but make sure it's thicker than the one you already have. It is just a guide after all. There's a few tight-fisted moments during the read that could maybe be worked on a bit but overall I don't see any problems. If this was the first guide I'd have some serious complaints though, but this is straightforward without going too far. mostly.
Do you guys even know what you're arguing about anymore? You're having, like, 3 arguments at the same time, and change every few exchanges.
What I got it, Theriasis is answering every question completely validly, but Gamrlord disagrees, and won't give up until Theriasis accepts his opinion.
Please read these two threads:
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2572194-please-read-this-before-making-a-suggestion-v2-0
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/44180-for-the-critics-ftc
I'm playing the "change the subject into something a bit more relevant and interactive" card this go-around.
In terms of the conversation between the other two, I gotta admit that I only scan like half of the argument either way; so I'm not invested or read-up enough to interject.
What I will say, though, is that it could've easily gone into PM within the first 2 exchanges with nothing of value being lost from this thread.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
I thought the discussion was over now? You're a bit late. You can all come out your bunkers now, the dust has settled.
Added "We need more inventory slots!" back into the inferior suggestions list.
The Unofficial Suggestion Guide - Everything you need to know to not make goofy mistakes in a suggestion! Honestly though, you should really go there.
I can't help but feel like
"So what if you get 5 extra slots? What if that's not enough? Do we need 10 more? Then another 20?"
is a bit of a slippery slope. Other than that it seems reasonable.
It's less a slippery slope, I think, and more... a prompt suggesting that you consider how many slots are appropriate and why. Wanting more just because you want more is not good enough.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Slippery slope really has more to do with pushing non-sequitur to force an issue that doesn't really exist.
"First you want 5 extra slots, what then? Nukes?!" <-- slippery slope, not really known how nukes comes into the picture.
If you have a predictable chain within causality; not really so. While I do think it's quite obnoxious to increment to death (first 5, but what if we need 10); it does have a reasonably assumed track of continuity. In this case, less slippery slope, and more confirmation bias.
I actually discussed this 10 months ago, in the post right above "generally disliked suggestions"!
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
I'm not entirely sure it's reasonable to assume that when people get five more slots they'll demand ten more, and when they get that they'll demand twenty more, and so on ad infinitum. It doesn't have to be completely unrelated to be a slippery slope. It would, for example, be a slippery slope to argue that legalising one drug would lead to even more drugs being legalised. This doesn't seem much different.
I suppose you could argue that; but if we're talking from a scene of numeric incrementation; 5 -> 10 -> 20 does seem a likely chain to me. I'm of the school of thought that novelty wears off more quickly than the hype surrounding the novelty. First 5 is enough, then 10 is the new 5. You can extend this to ever-increasingly bombastic levels of super-omega-giga-death-hardcore where "the old hardcore just isn't hardcore enough, so we should do X to make it harder!" Which is a place I derisively must admit I am forced to assume of your average suggester here.
Also, I'm a big nut for the idea of supporting details. Anything can be far fetched until the author goes out of their way to support their assertions. For example: "Here's why we should have specifically 5... Here's why having more than 5 (say 10 or 15) would be bad for gameplay." In which case, the author nips the problem in the bud. Of course, you also have critics that can discuss the merits of having 10 or 15. That's where the discussion comes in.
Just saying "I want 5 more slots because I run out of room all the time!" doesn't go far enough to explain the position as that's a selfish demand; but if the author can wrap it in a way that would positively address a common issue with inventory space (such as solved by a shulker box), then you have a different suggestion and one that escapes the "generally disliked suggestions" section as it actively seeks to avoid the reason it's there.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
Uhh at the taking criticism it says "let me them drown"
hi
I do enjoy posts like this. If you're finding mistakes in the guide, you're... actually reading the guide. If only we could have more users like that here.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
"If only we could more users like that here."
Found a mistake.
hi
I'm probably gonna update this guide less and less. I don't know, it just seems like the new accounts/joke threaders are protected while the people who call them out are the ones getting in trouble. There are some super obvious trolls that the mods never seem to spot. This forum was a great place and now it's a poopy playground for alternate accounts.
The Unofficial Suggestion Guide - Everything you need to know to not make goofy mistakes in a suggestion! Honestly though, you should really go there.
Theriasis for mod 2016.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
She does seem to be of the opinion that the forum has lost greatness.
I can't say I've seen any change, but I suppose I'm not an old-school forum member.