No, sorry, I'm not accepting people's flawed reasoning that the player should get burned by an actively smelting furnace.
Minecraft doesn't need to make sense.
Do you not realize you can hold 2000 gold bars in your pocket? or how about the flying cat/jellyfish that shoot FIREBALLS at you, when you enter the PORTAL to hell?
Incase you haven't realized, this game doesn't exactly follow 100% logic.
Yeah, lava would probably burn your hand.. but, can you think of any other ways to carry around lava with us? Probably not any that are simple enough to do quickly.
HOWEVER.
Having a furnace strapped to your back, yeah, zero logic there as well. But that's not why it's disliked. It's disliked because it makes no sense, AND theres really not a need for it?
You said "this way you wouldn't have to wait for your smelting to get done - you could do it on the go."
Most of my smelting time is for things like green dye, or a couple iron bars, maybe some stone.
When are you going to be in the situation that you're in dire need of those items ASAP?
You're underground, you need an iron pickaxe. Cool. Smelt 3-9 iron with a regular furnace. it takes about 20 seconds.
Or, seeing as a furnace requires nine cobblestone (one of our most common resources) make multiple furnances. Get the job done quicker.
tl;dr, stop taking critisism so seriously. it's good to feel passionate about your ideas, but, not everyone is going to like them.
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FoodCraft: Because Porkchops won't keep Old_Peculier alive forever.
Yes, I love all of these ideas of yours and they should be added to minecraft
However you should make 1 more thing, you can put a marker in the map that you meantioned in the post so if you get lost go to that marker to reach your house.
This is a epic idea, but what i have found, after a year of playing minecraft, the items are only a quarter of the actual game, i think its all in the Imagination of the player, so adding a bunch more content will i think make it less of minecraft, if you understand what i am saying, but the items are pretty frikin epic, its just that it seems like alot of people are trying to turn minecraft into a different game, and that kinda makes me shiver, cause i remember when i would play alpha and everything was bright and green and happy and there wasn't bio-mes in the game, but then notch added biomes, and when ever i went into a snowy bio-me, i would want to poop my pants, cause it was barren and horrible, then he changed grass collors, and it was like impossible to find nice bright looking grass that i remember.
sorry if i kinda went of subject :/ but just take this into note :biggrin.gif:
A suggestion on the durability of each backpack...
You should make them last around 10 days of use each. This would balance out the thing, though extras like the "Funky Pack" shouldn't have the whole durability, mainly because of the fact you are just a walking jukebox. I'm aware about how easy it is to make some things in the suggestion, so I should say for things like the crafting pack, and the furnace pack, you should make it 5 days of use. Also, the items saved in each backpack should stay with that one. One more thing... What would happen if you were to make a new backpack on the fly in your Crafting pack, and you needed to use it? Would you HAVE to wait until the crafting pack breaks before you can use it?
I find these opinions hilarious. Not by themselves, but when taken together:
Quote from steevo15 »
I think that you just don't want to admit that the smeltpack not the strongest of ideas. Carrying a bucket of lava is one thing, but carrying A WHOLE SMELTING OPERATION on your back is another...It is a major part of the game, and the smelt pack changes how said major part works...drastically. whereas lava...is not a major part of the game. A major part of the furnace is that you have to wait for the metals to be done smelting. it is a HUGE advantage to be able to use metals as they get done smelting. The advantage to do that greatly overshadows the loss of the 2x2 crafting grid and the potential to lose a little bit of fuel.
I feel as if the smeltpack is just an idea spawned from laziness. It doesn't give you more options, it just makes things unnecessarily easier. The smeltpack would essentially make the furnace useless. You can nerf the smeltpack all you want, but if you keep doing that, you will make the furnace a more optimal choice. If you keep it as is, the smeltpack is a more optimal choice. It's either or.
and:
Quote from SixthPhoenix »
Having a furnace strapped to your back, yeah, zero logic there as well. But that's not why it's disliked. It's disliked because it makes no sense, AND theres really not a need for it?
You said "this way you wouldn't have to wait for your smelting to get done - you could do it on the go."
Most of my smelting time is for things like green dye, or a couple iron bars, maybe some stone.
When are you going to be in the situation that you're in dire need of those items ASAP?
You're underground, you need an iron pickaxe. Cool. Smelt 3-9 iron with a regular furnace. it takes about 20 seconds. Or, seeing as a furnace requires nine cobblestone (one of our most common resources) make multiple furnances. Get the job done quicker.
It's this type of effect that really demonstrates just how awesome my ideas are. One side is going "it will make the game WAY TOO EASY" and the other side is going "THERE'S NO POINT TO IT AT ALL" when in fact, both are true, and because both are true, it's the perfect idea. Some people will benefit more from the idea because they value the things it saves them, and others wont value it at all, because the things they value aren't saved. That's why the idea is neither better nor worse than what is already in place, but still manages to be DIFFERENT enough to be worth adding.
Quote from SixthPhoenix »
Minecraft doesn't need to make sense.
Do you not realize you can hold 2000 gold bars in your pocket? or how about the flying cat/jellyfish that shoot FIREBALLS at you, when you enter the PORTAL to hell?
Incase you haven't realized, this game doesn't exactly follow 100% logic.
Yeah, lava would probably burn your hand.. but, can you think of any other ways to carry around lava with us? Probably not any that are simple enough to do quickly.
Please, please, PLEASE stop confusing Logic with Realism. They are NOT the same. It is not REALISTIC to store 2000 gold bars in your pocket but it is perfectly LOGICAL to do so, since you can store 2000 of anything else in your pocket. It is not REALISTIC to have ghasts shooting fireballs at you, but it is perfectly LOGICAL for them to do so, since they obviously survive in a completely foreign universe where lava is the norm, and it is not REALISTIC to be able to travel between dimensions, but it is LOGICAL that a dimensional gate to a place full of lava would need to be made from some form of lava.
It is not REALISTIC to carry a bucket of lava in your hand, nor wear an active furnace on your back, but it is LOGICAL that if you can carry one of them without being burned that you can carry the other without being burned, provided you had a place to carry it in such a manner.
Quote from SixthPhoenix »
tl;dr, stop taking critisism so seriously. it's good to feel passionate about your ideas, but, not everyone is going to like them.
It's less to do with defending my ideas, and more to do with promoting the understanding of how logical thought works. You don't have to like them, but if you're going to say "this isn't a good idea or shouldn't happen because of XYZ" then you should have a properly formed rational to that effect.
Quote from Rayes101 »
Yes, I love all of these ideas of yours and they should be added to minecraft
However you should make 1 more thing, you can put a marker in the map that you meantioned in the post so if you get lost go to that marker to reach your house.
The Atlas uses a compass in its recipe because the icon for your character always points to your spawn point, so you already do have a marker to use as a reference in case you get lost.
Quote from Moonster »
This is a epic idea, but what i have found, after a year of playing minecraft, the items are only a quarter of the actual game, i think its all in the Imagination of the player, so adding a bunch more content will i think make it less of minecraft, if you understand what i am saying, but the items are pretty frikin epic, its just that it seems like alot of people are trying to turn minecraft into a different game, and that kinda makes me shiver, cause i remember when i would play alpha and everything was bright and green and happy and there wasn't bio-mes in the game, but then notch added biomes, and when ever i went into a snowy bio-me, i would want to poop my pants, cause it was barren and horrible, then he changed grass collors, and it was like impossible to find nice bright looking grass that i remember.
sorry if i kinda went of subject :/ but just take this into note :biggrin.gif:
note: sorry if you dont agree with me :|
In fact, the focus of this thread is not on the items, but on the varied experience they provide. Different ways to play the game allow you to explore different aspects of the game, and help mitigate the aspects of the game that frustrate or bore you the most by trading off other less important aspects.
Also, consider this; you love how the bright green grass and trees looked, but have trouble finding them anymore. Other people like the snow areas or the dessert areas better, but if it was only one option, would you even have any value for those bright colors? Imagine if you stumbled across an area like that now; it would be a really big moment for you because you managed to find it despite it not being the norm anymore.
Quote from cstb »
A suggestion on the durability of each backpack...
You should make them last around 10 days of use each.
It's going to be based on the damage the player takes, not time. If the player never takes any damage, then the pack wouldn't take damage either. I might POSSIBLY have it so that on the hard difficulty, it would take a SINGLE point of durability for every day that passes, but it would be the type of thing that the pack would still last for a full game year(s) if the player never took damage.
This would balance out the thing, though extras like the "Funky Pack" shouldn't have the whole durability, mainly because of the fact you are just a walking jukebox.
The "GROOVE" pack can be decrafted so that you can craft the jukebox with a different backpack and not lose anything.
I'm aware about how easy it is to make some things in the suggestion, so I should say for things like the crafting pack, and the furnace pack, you should make it 5 days of use.
The workpack and Smelt pack really don't do that much more than just carrying a workbench or furnace with you. They're pure convenience, and come with their own disadvantages to offset that convenience.
Also, the items saved in each backpack should stay with that one.
No, too complicated.
One more thing... What would happen if you were to make a new backpack on the fly in your Crafting pack, and you needed to use it? Would you HAVE to wait until the crafting pack breaks before you can use it?
No. I specifically said that you could switch out a backpack or take them off or whatever. You're just going to end up dropping items that don't have a grid slot to be moved to, and if you DO wait until it breaks, you're going to end up with your items scattered, possibly losing some of them.
I love almost everything here, but I have a few suggestions.
The gloves seem overpowered, I don't think you should be able to climb flat surfaces so easily.
I don't like the smeltpack: why would you carry a furnace around on your back? all the other things have some use in your inventory screen, but a furnace you can leave at home with nearly no downsides.
Shields should work differently (I know they're from a different post, but still) I think that a shield should only work while you're crouching: that way, you have to use skill to block enemy attacks. Just my opinion.
Parachutes should not have a chance of breaking. That would just be unfair. Maybe have them lose durability as you float, but don't tell a player: okay, you jumped off a cliff. Sorry, your parachute broke.
I love almost everything here, but I have a few suggestions.
The gloves seem overpowered, I don't think you should be able to climb flat surfaces so easily.
The durability can be adjusted for balance. keep in mind how much more expensive it is to make gauntlets instead of just making some ladders.
I don't like the smeltpack: why would you carry a furnace around on your back? all the other things have some use in your inventory screen, but a furnace you can leave at home with nearly no downsides.
Then... don't use it, but apparently some people are convinced that it would actually make the game too easy, so it apparently has some benefit.
Shields should work differently (I know they're from a different post, but still) I think that a shield should only work while you're crouching: that way, you have to use skill to block enemy attacks. Just my opinion.
What are you talking about? That IS how they work. Holding the sneak button = guard with shield. Holding the sneak button is also how you specify that you want to strike with your offhand weapon/tool, but when using those, it doesn't slow you down.
Parachutes should not have a chance of breaking. That would just be unfair. Maybe have them lose durability as you float, but don't tell a player: okay, you jumped off a cliff. Sorry, your parachute broke.
Backup chute. It's there for a reason. A Parachute isn't a free ticket to never fear heights, and go jumping off cliffs helter skelter. It just gives you a chance to survive if you screw up.
This is a pretty good idea you have, but I want to add my two cents.
One problem I have is that starting out with only your hot bar is a bit of an extreme change. Now, one idea I have is to start with the hot bar, or even a smaller hot bar, and a row or two for an inventory. That way, it would justify giving packs a durability. For instance, a cloth pack with cloth straps would give you another row for your inventory and have less durability then a Leather pack with leather straps, and the leather pack would give you two rows. I'm thinking something like this:
[]
= Wool.
(The same holds true for leather.)
This would make the pack.
There are two ways to go about this. One, that's just the recipe and it's been made, or instead being a backpack right now, it act like a smaller chest, one that can't be doubled. Sure, there might not be much point since, in all honesty, chests are easy to make. However, this also works with my above mentioned plan with at least having one or two rows for your inventory, and my idea of having a small quick bar.
Now, this is simply to replace the Chest from being used, since it's pretty much easy to make.
Now for the furnace pack. Most people say it would make it too easy, to which I say this: You can carry and deploy a furnace at all times. Sure you have to wait, but it doesn't change the fact that you carry a furnace with you. And once you're done, you can just pick it up. With the furnace pack, you face several disadvantages.
1: You smelt slower, so you use more fuel.
2: It has a durability, so it you take too much damage, it'll break.
3: Fall in to the water, and you loose your progress, and the fire that was lit goes out. Now, for sake of sanity, I don't think your furnace should relight unless: A) You manually have to to turn it on or :cool.gif: It turns back on a few seconds AFTER you leave water.
Another idea is, in relations to my post about inventory, is that the Smelting pack doesn't give you any inventory space. In argument of reality, where would you even put your stuff? This would add another disadvantage to having a portable smelting operation. The same can apply to the craft pack, seeing as you always have access to 3X3 grid.
The chest pack would replace the double chest pack. To make this, you need to have six iron and a chest.
[] []
Now, you may be wondering why I want iron to be used rather then wool or leather. Well, as I said, chests are easy to make. (Though, when I think about it, you could make them harder by changing the recipe where it calls for an iron in the middle to act as the latch, but I digress.) This would actually invest some serious resources into the making of it. This pack will give the the most inventory, however you won't be able to craft while wearing it. That on it's own, however, wouldn't justify it's existence, so that's why I'm also suggesting the use of iron in it's construction.
Next, is the parachute. Honestly, I think this can be solved simply. You can only use it once and that's it. You want to make more? Go ahead, but they won't stack. This way, you can justify having them and having them work 100% of the time. This presents a possibility: The parachute being a wild card item. This would also mean getting rid of the chute pack, but for good reason.
Next, onto the other thing that people seem to hate, the gauntlets. I'm surprised nobody thought of this before.
The gauntlets will simply be armor, without the ability to climb. So, how would you climb then? With climbing claws! Climbing claws will let you climb walls and mountains like ladders. They would also be made something like this.
[] [] []
:Ham:=Leather = String.
Now, to make up for the ability to climb walls they won't offer any protection. You also can't use weapons or off hands while they're equipped as well. However, they do boost your attack damage when you hit enemies with them, but that uses up their durability more then the climbing. Perhaps to add a bit of realism as well, if you're wearing heavy armor like iron or diamond, you climb at a slower rate.
The final idea is belts. What would belts do? Well, you remember my idea of having a smaller quick bar? Well, that bar should become your belt bar. Belt would be made like normal armor, by making a horizontal line of Leather, Iron, gold or Diamond. While belts will have a durability, they will not contribute to your overall armor, but rather your quick bar. This feature would also be justified by giving you a single inventory row at the start. That, and it would make seance to have a belt act as a quick bar. The belt would likely replace the wild card slot.
Well, those are my thoughts. Just so you know, I came up with them recently, so they may be a bit rough around the edges. Still, I think I thought them through pretty well, so please tell me what you think, Grey.
Also, I would like to know what your thought on having classes/rolls in minecraft, and if you would be interested in collaborating with me on it.
I do not like (I read most of the pack items but skimmed through the gloves{didn't read all of it} then read everything else) :
The Furnace Pack: I know this has been said before but it is not realistic (even in a game where there are creepers or the kamakaze green mutants) and you have given many valid arguments, but I still dislike them, the whole point of a furnace is to wait for it to finish smelting so you can use the item, not smelting on the go, If implemented it would sorta render the regular furnace useless
The Crafting Pack : I don't know if this has already been said but this would make the game all too easy (sorta) by letting you craft on the go, it would also sorta render the crafting bench useless
The Expel Pack : Well I would just hate someone/ an army turning around and firing arrows like mad men (Mine and a lot of other peoples opinions, but would make building much easier (if I understood correctly) maybe take away it's ability to fire arrows but I just wouldn't like it anyways
And here is something I think notch would never implement (but I don't have anything against this)
The Creeper Pack : He has enough griefing emails as is, if he added this you would have Minecraft News with the latest suicide bombers ( I wouldn't mind it though)
Everything else is a job well done (with a few tweaks here are there, but who am I to talk), I thank you for the artwork, it always makes stuff much easier to understand
P.S. maybe make gloves a bit slower than a ladder to balance it out (I skimmed through that piece of text, sorry if this was already said by you)
Quote from Darkbirth »
{snip}
Nice job on those ideas
except for that last bit of info for classes/rolls in minecraft where I have to remind you this is a sandbox game, it would be cool as a mod though
(unless you mean proficiency as in a faster smelting time, if you were a blacksmith or what ev's then I disagree slightly less, but if that were implemented there would always be a better class then all the rest wich sucks for all class picking games)
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The Furnace Pack: I know this has been said before but it is not realistic (even in a game where there are creepers or the kamakaze green mutants) and you have given many valid arguments, but I still dislike them, the whole point of a furnace is to wait for it to finish smelting so you can use the item, not smelting on the go, If implemented it would sorta render the regular furnace useless
The Crafting Pack : I don't know if this has already been said but this would make the game all too easy (sorta) by letting you craft on the go, it would also sorta render the crafting bench useless
Remember, if you wear a crafting or smelt pack, then you aren't wearing a carrypack or chutepack. With a carry pack, you'd have enough room for a workbench and a furnace on top of the extra inventory.
The Expel Pack : Well I would just hate someone/ an army turning around and firing arrows like mad men (Mine and a lot of other peoples opinions, but would make building much easier (if I understood correctly) maybe take away it's ability to fire arrows but I just wouldn't like it anyways
But if there's an army, wouldn't it be more effective for them to just use the arrows directly with a bow so that they could actually aim, and possibly retrieve whatever arrows didn't hit their targets?
And here is something I think notch would never implement (but I don't have anything against this)
The Creeper Pack : He has enough griefing emails as is, if he added this you would have Minecraft News with the latest suicide bombers ( I wouldn't mind it though)
Oh, I know perfectly well that it's ridiculous. It was thrown in mostly as a joke, hence the wildly different description style for it, but even if it was included, it would need some sort of server-side command to disable it.
Everything else is a job well done (with a few tweaks here are there, but who am I to talk), I thank you for the artwork, it always makes stuff much easier to understand
P.S. maybe make gloves a bit slower than a ladder to balance it out (I skimmed through that piece of text, sorry if this was already said by you)
This is the type of suggestions I enjoy. I did specifically mention soul sand having a slower climbing speed, but I don't think I even intended for the player to climb slower than without a ladder. This is the type of feedback I was looking for on that, and it's an excellent way to differentiate between the convenience of freeclimbing vs the convenience of ladders.
Quote from Darkbirth »
This is a pretty good idea you have, but I want to add my two cents.
I will respond to you in the detail you deserve at a later time, but I will point out that I have very little interest in classes beyond what this packs idea would bring to the game. I far prefer to keep all minecrafters equal, and only defined by the equipment they choose to carry.
Well each of them posses advantages and disadvantages that balance them out, you really refined this work, (I know it was to balance out all packs but) I'm going to hate the durability to the packs lol
If you plan to be a nomad and travel during the night, use the crafting pack for sure
If you plan to be a nomad and travel during the night, use the furnace pack for sure
If you plan to be a nomad and travel only during the day, use a regular crafting bench and furnace cause at night you can do stuff
If you plan to go into a mine and/or mine bring one of the two, with you at all times
If you plan to build use the expel pack
If you plan to travel far and wide and want to take multiple items use a carry pack at your own risk, since those things break (bring more than 3)
Bring parachutes no matter what, if your in a mine, remember to find a way back up
If you wanna make a creeper have a taste of his own medicine bring creeper pack and nothing else
And I can see these being used in Minecraft PvP wars (crafting packs for people making stuff on the go, furnace pack for smelting iron and gold on the go, parachutes for jumping off high walls {on hard, not recomended}, creeper packs for blowing sh1t up, expel packs for people behind you and killing people in front of you, offhand slots for defending and stuff, carry packs for medics {food to restore health})
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I said that the parachute pack (parachute combined with the backpack) is too overpowered, and I think unnecessary would have been a better word. It combines the two items, so what would be the point of having both separate ones? I think that the two items should just be separate, I don't see why you need to combine everything.
I said that the parachute pack (parachute combined with the backpack) is too overpowered, and I think unnecessary would have been a better word. It combines the two items, so what would be the point of having both separate ones? I think that the two items should just be separate, I don't see why you need to combine everything.
In simple terms
Carry Pack + Parachute = Only one parachute (higher chance on death, more inventory space)
Parachute + Extra Parachute = Two Parachutes (Lower chance of death, less inventory space)
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I still stand by my reasoning that the creeper pack would be the ultimate defense against other players. No one's going to kill you if they have to go out with you when you die. Imagine a army of people wearing those. To take people hostage all they would have to do is stand next to the people.
Their army would be called the lag army and I would hit them, with a bow and arrow, the only way they would be able to take people with bows hostile would be to act normal and nice stand beside the dude then put it on and make the sound (yes thats right everybody knows what im talking about when I say THE sound)
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Carry Pack + Parachute = Only one parachute (higher chance on death, more inventory space)
Parachute + Extra Parachute = Two Parachutes (Lower chance of death, less inventory space)
Havign a parachute isn't a guarantee of safety, so it's not overpowered to have a parachute with a backup and still have a full inventory BUT, as I've continued to state. The chutepack will break after it loses durability, THE PARACHUTE DOES NOT LOSE DURABILITY, ONLY PACKS DO.
Though with the increase to 50% success for all difficulties, I suppose a chest with just the one parachute would still be reasonable for the chute pack. Maybe even allow the parachute by itself to have 2 backup chutes instead of just one.
I Never said it was guaranteed safety from falling from high heights...even with a 80to99% chance that it wont break, your gonna be mad when it does (with my luck two parachutes on peaceful will break, both of them...and I play on hard)
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It's less to do with defending my ideas, and more to do with promoting the understanding of how logical thought works.
"it will make the game WAY TOO EASY" and the other side is going "THERE'S NO POINT TO IT AT ALL" when in fact, both are true, and because both are true, it's the perfect idea.
Wait, wait,wait...you are trying to give this guy a lesson in thinking logically, when you aren't even thinking logically yourself. By nerfing the smeltpack (fuel being destroyed when hurt or touch water, possible movement restrictions) , you are implying that you think the smeltpack would be too overpowered by itself, otherwise you would not have nerfed it. It can then be inferred (due to the fact that you nerfed the smeltpack and didn't leave it overpowered) that you believe it is bad to have items or aspects that are overpowered. But now, all of a sudden you are trying to operate under the idea that it is good because it is overpowered ("it will make the game WAY TOO EASY"..."when in fact, both are true, it's the perfect idea.") ? That is a contradiction right there.
Second, this idea directly goes against one of the main mechanics of the game, for reasons I stated earlier. Also, Notch wants this game to be hard, I've read it multiple times, especially when he refers to enemy mobs. Why should we implement things that make the game easier out of sheer laziness and trying to simulate variety.
"this isn't a good idea or shouldn't happen because of XYZ" then you should have a properly formed rational to that effect.
That is what I have been doing this whole thread.
The smeltpack isn't a good idea or shouldn't happen because of XYZ (now I will put all of my reasoning, that has already been said in this thread mind you)
First, I established that I thought the smelt pack makes smelting too portable, and it takes away from the specialized block that is already in place.
I think that if you want to craft something complicated, you should have to go to a separate place for it. It just makes it too portable. The same goes for the smeltpack
The whole point of of having a work bench and a furnace is that you have to go to a separate place to smelt and craft more complex items.
Next, I established that I thought the ability to smelt while walking, greatly overshadows any current "nerfs" that you have placed on the idea.
The ability to craft and smelt on the fly, greatly overshadows lost inventory space.
Even if you do lose the (most likely coal) fuel source whenever you take damage or touch water, you can easily combat this problem by using very small amounts of coal at a time.
I also established that I believed the whole point of even having the furnace was that you have to set it down and wait for the ore to be done smelting
the fact that you have to place them down and use them is what matters, especially for the furnace, because you have to wait for things to be done smelting.
I don't know if you've read any of this, but this is all legitimate evidence as to why the smeltpack should not be implemented. It is a "properly formed rational".
It isn't a good idea. There has been more than enough evidence against it. It makes a major block in the game useless. It makes the game easier (going against what the CREATOR of the game wants). You cannot say that the smeltpack is different enough to add to the game, when it accomplishes the same task (more conveniently) as a current specialty block in the game. Face it, You are throwing everyone's criticisms by the wayside, without even compromising on anything, you are focusing more on defending your idea than using logic or reason.
Wait, wait,wait...you are trying to give this guy a lesson in thinking logically, when you aren't even thinking logically yourself. By nerfing the smeltpack (fuel being destroyed when hurt or touch water, possible movement restrictions) , you are implying that you think the smeltpack would be too overpowered by itself, otherwise you would not have nerfed it. It can then be inferred (due to the fact that you nerfed the smeltpack and didn't leave it overpowered) that you believe it is bad to have items or aspects that are overpowered. But now, all of a sudden you are trying to operate under the idea that it is good because it is overpowered ("it will make the game WAY TOO EASY"..."when in fact, both are true, it's the perfect idea.") ? That is a contradiction right there.
You're either severely missing a point, or you're misunderstanding a point, probably both. I haven't nerfed the smeltpack beyond what it was originally intended. (I already included the damage interrupts the smelting process to begin with, the water is simply a logical extension of that same concept, and I've specifically said that I WONT implement movement restrictions)
and my point is that YOU think that the smeltpack would make the game too easy. Yet there have been close to half a dozen people other than you that have pointed out that it DOESN'T make the game easier, so much so that they don't see what the point of the smeltpack is at all. The fact of the matter is that the smeltpack is something that is valuable to you because the advantages it gives would be advantages you would use, yet many other people how shown ways that they would get BETTER advantages from continuing to use the regular furnaces and NOT the smelt pack. That dichotomy; where it's the most powerful thing ever to one player, yet useless to someone else, is what makes it fit perfectly alongside the existing furnace, rather than overshadowing or being overshadowed by it.
Second, this idea directly goes against one of the main mechanics of the game, for reasons I stated earlier. Also, Notch wants this game to be hard, I've read it multiple times, especially when he refers to enemy mobs. Why should we implement things that make the game easier out of sheer laziness and trying to simulate variety.
Notice what you yourself pointed out here; especially to ENEMY MOBS. Go ahead and make the battles more interesting, but make the GAME more FUN, which in a sandbox game is directly correlated to variety and the ability to make strategies that are more suited to supporting your individual playstyle.
"this isn't a good idea or shouldn't happen because of XYZ" then you should have a properly formed rational to that effect.
That is what I have been doing this whole thread.
You have been attempting to do this, but not really that successfully.
The smeltpack isn't a good idea or shouldn't happen because of XYZ (now I will put all of my reasoning, that has already been said in this thread mind you)
First, I established that I thought the smelt pack makes smelting too portable, and it takes away from the specialized block that is already in place.
I think that if you want to craft something complicated, you should have to go to a separate place for it. It just makes it too portable. The same goes for the smeltpack
The whole point of of having a work bench and a furnace is that you have to go to a separate place to smelt and craft more complex items.
To which I responded that It doesn't really make it any more portable than it already is:
You carry a furnace(and even a full stack of 64 furnaces) with you at all times, and can place that furnace anywhere and let it handle a smelting process while you are not near it. A Carrypack with a stack of furnaces(all made from cobblestone, which are so common that they might as well be wood) and a stack of logs to handle smelting, and you've got the equivalent of a smeltpack AND 10 extra slots above what a smeltpack would have provided you.
Next, I established that I thought the ability to smelt while walking, greatly overshadows any current "nerfs" that you have placed on the idea.
The ability to craft and smelt on the fly, greatly overshadows lost inventory space.
Even if you do lose the (most likely coal) fuel source whenever you take damage or touch water, you can easily combat this problem by using very small amounts of coal at a time.
To which others have pointed out that there really isn't that big of an advantage to even really need the nerfs at all. You can place multiple furnaces to smelt more ore at the same time, and still go walking around without needing to risk losing any fuel at all.
I also established that I believed the whole point of even having the furnace was that you have to set it down and wait for the ore to be done smelting
the fact that you have to place them down and use them is what matters, especially for the furnace, because you have to wait for things to be done smelting.
I don't know if you've read any of this, but this is all legitimate evidence as to why the smeltpack should not be implemented. It is a "properly formed rational".
It isn't a good idea. There has been more than enough evidence against it. It makes a major block in the game useless.
It can't make a major block in the game useless when it's MADE FROM THAT BLOCK, and you're ASSUMING that every single person in the game will WANT to wear the smeltpack, even despite the fact that wearing it would mean that they can't wear the carry pack or chutepack, or capepack, or workpack, etc. For the people that want to wear those, the furnace will still have just as much value as it does now.
The problem with your argument is that you are essentially arguing from the stance that the smeltpack is the ONLY thing being added. If I offer you a free macbook, that sounds like its a great deal, but if accepting it means you don't get an easily upgradable top of the line PC gaming rig, is it still a good deal? To the apple fanboys, maybe, but to the dedicated PC gamer, no, it's not.
But that's the whole point. (Refer to my earlier statement about dichotomy) It's useless for some, yet utterly important to others.
It makes the game easier (going against what the CREATOR of the game wants). You cannot say that the smeltpack is different enough to add to the game, when it accomplishes the same task (more conveniently) as a current specialty block in the game.
Yes, I can say that it is, and I have said as much. The directly conflicting reasons for why you and other people think that the smeltpack shouldn't be included, the fact that they conflict is the exact reason that it should be included. Again, see Dichotomy.
Face it, You are throwing everyone's criticisms by the wayside, without even compromising on anything, you are focusing more on defending your idea than using logic or reason.
I'm not throwing the criticism to the wayside, I'm considering EVERYONE'S criticism properly. If half the people around you are saying "you're too fat" and the others are saying "you're too skinny" then it's a fair bet that you're not either.
Minecraft doesn't need to make sense.
Do you not realize you can hold 2000 gold bars in your pocket? or how about the flying cat/jellyfish that shoot FIREBALLS at you, when you enter the PORTAL to hell?
Incase you haven't realized, this game doesn't exactly follow 100% logic.
Yeah, lava would probably burn your hand.. but, can you think of any other ways to carry around lava with us? Probably not any that are simple enough to do quickly.
HOWEVER.
Having a furnace strapped to your back, yeah, zero logic there as well. But that's not why it's disliked. It's disliked because it makes no sense, AND theres really not a need for it?
You said "this way you wouldn't have to wait for your smelting to get done - you could do it on the go."
Most of my smelting time is for things like green dye, or a couple iron bars, maybe some stone.
When are you going to be in the situation that you're in dire need of those items ASAP?
You're underground, you need an iron pickaxe. Cool. Smelt 3-9 iron with a regular furnace. it takes about 20 seconds.
Or, seeing as a furnace requires nine cobblestone (one of our most common resources) make multiple furnances. Get the job done quicker.
tl;dr, stop taking critisism so seriously. it's good to feel passionate about your ideas, but, not everyone is going to like them.
FoodCraft: Because Porkchops won't keep Old_Peculier alive forever.
However you should make 1 more thing, you can put a marker in the map that you meantioned in the post so if you get lost go to that marker to reach your house.
sorry if i kinda went of subject :/ but just take this into note :biggrin.gif:
note: sorry if you dont agree with me :|
You should make them last around 10 days of use each. This would balance out the thing, though extras like the "Funky Pack" shouldn't have the whole durability, mainly because of the fact you are just a walking jukebox. I'm aware about how easy it is to make some things in the suggestion, so I should say for things like the crafting pack, and the furnace pack, you should make it 5 days of use. Also, the items saved in each backpack should stay with that one. One more thing... What would happen if you were to make a new backpack on the fly in your Crafting pack, and you needed to use it? Would you HAVE to wait until the crafting pack breaks before you can use it?
Nothing to see here, move along.
and:
It's this type of effect that really demonstrates just how awesome my ideas are. One side is going "it will make the game WAY TOO EASY" and the other side is going "THERE'S NO POINT TO IT AT ALL" when in fact, both are true, and because both are true, it's the perfect idea. Some people will benefit more from the idea because they value the things it saves them, and others wont value it at all, because the things they value aren't saved. That's why the idea is neither better nor worse than what is already in place, but still manages to be DIFFERENT enough to be worth adding.
Please, please, PLEASE stop confusing Logic with Realism. They are NOT the same. It is not REALISTIC to store 2000 gold bars in your pocket but it is perfectly LOGICAL to do so, since you can store 2000 of anything else in your pocket. It is not REALISTIC to have ghasts shooting fireballs at you, but it is perfectly LOGICAL for them to do so, since they obviously survive in a completely foreign universe where lava is the norm, and it is not REALISTIC to be able to travel between dimensions, but it is LOGICAL that a dimensional gate to a place full of lava would need to be made from some form of lava.
It is not REALISTIC to carry a bucket of lava in your hand, nor wear an active furnace on your back, but it is LOGICAL that if you can carry one of them without being burned that you can carry the other without being burned, provided you had a place to carry it in such a manner.
It's less to do with defending my ideas, and more to do with promoting the understanding of how logical thought works. You don't have to like them, but if you're going to say "this isn't a good idea or shouldn't happen because of XYZ" then you should have a properly formed rational to that effect.
The Atlas uses a compass in its recipe because the icon for your character always points to your spawn point, so you already do have a marker to use as a reference in case you get lost.
In fact, the focus of this thread is not on the items, but on the varied experience they provide. Different ways to play the game allow you to explore different aspects of the game, and help mitigate the aspects of the game that frustrate or bore you the most by trading off other less important aspects.
Also, consider this; you love how the bright green grass and trees looked, but have trouble finding them anymore. Other people like the snow areas or the dessert areas better, but if it was only one option, would you even have any value for those bright colors? Imagine if you stumbled across an area like that now; it would be a really big moment for you because you managed to find it despite it not being the norm anymore.
It's going to be based on the damage the player takes, not time. If the player never takes any damage, then the pack wouldn't take damage either. I might POSSIBLY have it so that on the hard difficulty, it would take a SINGLE point of durability for every day that passes, but it would be the type of thing that the pack would still last for a full game year(s) if the player never took damage.
The "GROOVE" pack can be decrafted so that you can craft the jukebox with a different backpack and not lose anything.
The workpack and Smelt pack really don't do that much more than just carrying a workbench or furnace with you. They're pure convenience, and come with their own disadvantages to offset that convenience.
No, too complicated.
No. I specifically said that you could switch out a backpack or take them off or whatever. You're just going to end up dropping items that don't have a grid slot to be moved to, and if you DO wait until it breaks, you're going to end up with your items scattered, possibly losing some of them.
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The gloves seem overpowered, I don't think you should be able to climb flat surfaces so easily.
I don't like the smeltpack: why would you carry a furnace around on your back? all the other things have some use in your inventory screen, but a furnace you can leave at home with nearly no downsides.
Shields should work differently (I know they're from a different post, but still) I think that a shield should only work while you're crouching: that way, you have to use skill to block enemy attacks. Just my opinion.
Parachutes should not have a chance of breaking. That would just be unfair. Maybe have them lose durability as you float, but don't tell a player: okay, you jumped off a cliff. Sorry, your parachute broke.
Then... don't use it, but apparently some people are convinced that it would actually make the game too easy, so it apparently has some benefit.
What are you talking about? That IS how they work. Holding the sneak button = guard with shield. Holding the sneak button is also how you specify that you want to strike with your offhand weapon/tool, but when using those, it doesn't slow you down.
Backup chute. It's there for a reason. A Parachute isn't a free ticket to never fear heights, and go jumping off cliffs helter skelter. It just gives you a chance to survive if you screw up.
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One problem I have is that starting out with only your hot bar is a bit of an extreme change. Now, one idea I have is to start with the hot bar, or even a smaller hot bar, and a row or two for an inventory. That way, it would justify giving packs a durability. For instance, a cloth pack with cloth straps would give you another row for your inventory and have less durability then a Leather pack with leather straps, and the leather pack would give you two rows. I'm thinking something like this:
(The same holds true for leather.)
This would make the pack.
There are two ways to go about this. One, that's just the recipe and it's been made, or instead being a backpack right now, it act like a smaller chest, one that can't be doubled. Sure, there might not be much point since, in all honesty, chests are easy to make. However, this also works with my above mentioned plan with at least having one or two rows for your inventory, and my idea of having a small quick bar.
Now, this is simply to replace the Chest from being used, since it's pretty much easy to make.
Now for the furnace pack. Most people say it would make it too easy, to which I say this: You can carry and deploy a furnace at all times. Sure you have to wait, but it doesn't change the fact that you carry a furnace with you. And once you're done, you can just pick it up. With the furnace pack, you face several disadvantages.
1: You smelt slower, so you use more fuel.
2: It has a durability, so it you take too much damage, it'll break.
3: Fall in to the water, and you loose your progress, and the fire that was lit goes out. Now, for sake of sanity, I don't think your furnace should relight unless: A) You manually have to to turn it on or :cool.gif: It turns back on a few seconds AFTER you leave water.
Another idea is, in relations to my post about inventory, is that the Smelting pack doesn't give you any inventory space. In argument of reality, where would you even put your stuff? This would add another disadvantage to having a portable smelting operation. The same can apply to the craft pack, seeing as you always have access to 3X3 grid.
The chest pack would replace the double chest pack. To make this, you need to have six iron and a chest.
Now, you may be wondering why I want iron to be used rather then wool or leather. Well, as I said, chests are easy to make. (Though, when I think about it, you could make them harder by changing the recipe where it calls for an iron in the middle to act as the latch, but I digress.) This would actually invest some serious resources into the making of it. This pack will give the the most inventory, however you won't be able to craft while wearing it. That on it's own, however, wouldn't justify it's existence, so that's why I'm also suggesting the use of iron in it's construction.
Next, is the parachute. Honestly, I think this can be solved simply. You can only use it once and that's it. You want to make more? Go ahead, but they won't stack. This way, you can justify having them and having them work 100% of the time. This presents a possibility: The parachute being a wild card item. This would also mean getting rid of the chute pack, but for good reason.
Next, onto the other thing that people seem to hate, the gauntlets. I'm surprised nobody thought of this before.
The gauntlets will simply be armor, without the ability to climb. So, how would you climb then? With climbing claws! Climbing claws will let you climb walls and mountains like ladders. They would also be made something like this.
:Ham:=Leather
Now, to make up for the ability to climb walls they won't offer any protection. You also can't use weapons or off hands while they're equipped as well. However, they do boost your attack damage when you hit enemies with them, but that uses up their durability more then the climbing. Perhaps to add a bit of realism as well, if you're wearing heavy armor like iron or diamond, you climb at a slower rate.
The final idea is belts. What would belts do? Well, you remember my idea of having a smaller quick bar? Well, that bar should become your belt bar. Belt would be made like normal armor, by making a horizontal line of Leather, Iron, gold or Diamond. While belts will have a durability, they will not contribute to your overall armor, but rather your quick bar. This feature would also be justified by giving you a single inventory row at the start. That, and it would make seance to have a belt act as a quick bar. The belt would likely replace the wild card slot.
Well, those are my thoughts. Just so you know, I came up with them recently, so they may be a bit rough around the edges. Still, I think I thought them through pretty well, so please tell me what you think, Grey.
Also, I would like to know what your thought on having classes/rolls in minecraft, and if you would be interested in collaborating with me on it.
The Furnace Pack: I know this has been said before but it is not realistic (even in a game where there are creepers or the kamakaze green mutants) and you have given many valid arguments, but I still dislike them, the whole point of a furnace is to wait for it to finish smelting so you can use the item, not smelting on the go, If implemented it would sorta render the regular furnace useless
The Crafting Pack : I don't know if this has already been said but this would make the game all too easy (sorta) by letting you craft on the go, it would also sorta render the crafting bench useless
The Expel Pack : Well I would just hate someone/ an army turning around and firing arrows like mad men (Mine and a lot of other peoples opinions, but would make building much easier (if I understood correctly) maybe take away it's ability to fire arrows but I just wouldn't like it anyways
And here is something I think notch would never implement (but I don't have anything against this)
The Creeper Pack : He has enough griefing emails as is, if he added this you would have Minecraft News with the latest suicide bombers ( I wouldn't mind it though)
Everything else is a job well done (with a few tweaks here are there, but who am I to talk), I thank you for the artwork, it always makes stuff much easier to understand
P.S. maybe make gloves a bit slower than a ladder to balance it out (I skimmed through that piece of text, sorry if this was already said by you)
Nice job on those ideas
except for that last bit of info for classes/rolls in minecraft where I have to remind you this is a sandbox game, it would be cool as a mod though
(unless you mean proficiency as in a faster smelting time, if you were a blacksmith or what ev's then I disagree slightly less, but if that were implemented there would always be a better class then all the rest wich sucks for all class picking games)
I will be using them soon
I'm Starting to be known as a Balancer, A.K.A. I'm starting to become pessimist
But if there's an army, wouldn't it be more effective for them to just use the arrows directly with a bow so that they could actually aim, and possibly retrieve whatever arrows didn't hit their targets?
Oh, I know perfectly well that it's ridiculous. It was thrown in mostly as a joke, hence the wildly different description style for it, but even if it was included, it would need some sort of server-side command to disable it.
This is the type of suggestions I enjoy. I did specifically mention soul sand having a slower climbing speed, but I don't think I even intended for the player to climb slower than without a ladder. This is the type of feedback I was looking for on that, and it's an excellent way to differentiate between the convenience of freeclimbing vs the convenience of ladders.
I will respond to you in the detail you deserve at a later time, but I will point out that I have very little interest in classes beyond what this packs idea would bring to the game. I far prefer to keep all minecrafters equal, and only defined by the equipment they choose to carry.
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If you plan to be a nomad and travel during the night, use the crafting pack for sure
If you plan to be a nomad and travel during the night, use the furnace pack for sure
If you plan to be a nomad and travel only during the day, use a regular crafting bench and furnace cause at night you can do stuff
If you plan to go into a mine and/or mine bring one of the two, with you at all times
If you plan to build use the expel pack
If you plan to travel far and wide and want to take multiple items use a carry pack at your own risk, since those things break (bring more than 3)
Bring parachutes no matter what, if your in a mine, remember to find a way back up
If you wanna make a creeper have a taste of his own medicine bring creeper pack and nothing else
And I can see these being used in Minecraft PvP wars (crafting packs for people making stuff on the go, furnace pack for smelting iron and gold on the go, parachutes for jumping off high walls {on hard, not recomended}, creeper packs for blowing sh1t up, expel packs for people behind you and killing people in front of you, offhand slots for defending and stuff, carry packs for medics {food to restore health})
I will be using them soon
I'm Starting to be known as a Balancer, A.K.A. I'm starting to become pessimist
In simple terms
Carry Pack + Parachute = Only one parachute (higher chance on death, more inventory space)
Parachute + Extra Parachute = Two Parachutes (Lower chance of death, less inventory space)
I will be using them soon
I'm Starting to be known as a Balancer, A.K.A. I'm starting to become pessimist
I will be using them soon
I'm Starting to be known as a Balancer, A.K.A. I'm starting to become pessimist
Havign a parachute isn't a guarantee of safety, so it's not overpowered to have a parachute with a backup and still have a full inventory BUT, as I've continued to state. The chutepack will break after it loses durability, THE PARACHUTE DOES NOT LOSE DURABILITY, ONLY PACKS DO.
Though with the increase to 50% success for all difficulties, I suppose a chest with just the one parachute would still be reasonable for the chute pack. Maybe even allow the parachute by itself to have 2 backup chutes instead of just one.
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I will be using them soon
I'm Starting to be known as a Balancer, A.K.A. I'm starting to become pessimist
Wait, wait,wait...you are trying to give this guy a lesson in thinking logically, when you aren't even thinking logically yourself. By nerfing the smeltpack (fuel being destroyed when hurt or touch water, possible movement restrictions) , you are implying that you think the smeltpack would be too overpowered by itself, otherwise you would not have nerfed it. It can then be inferred (due to the fact that you nerfed the smeltpack and didn't leave it overpowered) that you believe it is bad to have items or aspects that are overpowered. But now, all of a sudden you are trying to operate under the idea that it is good because it is overpowered ("it will make the game WAY TOO EASY"..."when in fact, both are true, it's the perfect idea.") ? That is a contradiction right there.
Second, this idea directly goes against one of the main mechanics of the game, for reasons I stated earlier. Also, Notch wants this game to be hard, I've read it multiple times, especially when he refers to enemy mobs. Why should we implement things that make the game easier out of sheer laziness and trying to simulate variety.
That is what I have been doing this whole thread.
The smeltpack isn't a good idea or shouldn't happen because of XYZ (now I will put all of my reasoning, that has already been said in this thread mind you)
First, I established that I thought the smelt pack makes smelting too portable, and it takes away from the specialized block that is already in place.
Next, I established that I thought the ability to smelt while walking, greatly overshadows any current "nerfs" that you have placed on the idea.
I also established that I believed the whole point of even having the furnace was that you have to set it down and wait for the ore to be done smelting
I don't know if you've read any of this, but this is all legitimate evidence as to why the smeltpack should not be implemented. It is a "properly formed rational".
It isn't a good idea. There has been more than enough evidence against it. It makes a major block in the game useless. It makes the game easier (going against what the CREATOR of the game wants). You cannot say that the smeltpack is different enough to add to the game, when it accomplishes the same task (more conveniently) as a current specialty block in the game. Face it, You are throwing everyone's criticisms by the wayside, without even compromising on anything, you are focusing more on defending your idea than using logic or reason.
and my point is that YOU think that the smeltpack would make the game too easy. Yet there have been close to half a dozen people other than you that have pointed out that it DOESN'T make the game easier, so much so that they don't see what the point of the smeltpack is at all. The fact of the matter is that the smeltpack is something that is valuable to you because the advantages it gives would be advantages you would use, yet many other people how shown ways that they would get BETTER advantages from continuing to use the regular furnaces and NOT the smelt pack. That dichotomy; where it's the most powerful thing ever to one player, yet useless to someone else, is what makes it fit perfectly alongside the existing furnace, rather than overshadowing or being overshadowed by it.
Notice what you yourself pointed out here; especially to ENEMY MOBS. Go ahead and make the battles more interesting, but make the GAME more FUN, which in a sandbox game is directly correlated to variety and the ability to make strategies that are more suited to supporting your individual playstyle.
You have been attempting to do this, but not really that successfully.
To which I responded that It doesn't really make it any more portable than it already is:
You carry a furnace(and even a full stack of 64 furnaces) with you at all times, and can place that furnace anywhere and let it handle a smelting process while you are not near it. A Carrypack with a stack of furnaces(all made from cobblestone, which are so common that they might as well be wood) and a stack of logs to handle smelting, and you've got the equivalent of a smeltpack AND 10 extra slots above what a smeltpack would have provided you.
To which others have pointed out that there really isn't that big of an advantage to even really need the nerfs at all. You can place multiple furnaces to smelt more ore at the same time, and still go walking around without needing to risk losing any fuel at all.
It can't make a major block in the game useless when it's MADE FROM THAT BLOCK, and you're ASSUMING that every single person in the game will WANT to wear the smeltpack, even despite the fact that wearing it would mean that they can't wear the carry pack or chutepack, or capepack, or workpack, etc. For the people that want to wear those, the furnace will still have just as much value as it does now.
The problem with your argument is that you are essentially arguing from the stance that the smeltpack is the ONLY thing being added. If I offer you a free macbook, that sounds like its a great deal, but if accepting it means you don't get an easily upgradable top of the line PC gaming rig, is it still a good deal? To the apple fanboys, maybe, but to the dedicated PC gamer, no, it's not.
But that's the whole point. (Refer to my earlier statement about dichotomy) It's useless for some, yet utterly important to others.
Yes, I can say that it is, and I have said as much. The directly conflicting reasons for why you and other people think that the smeltpack shouldn't be included, the fact that they conflict is the exact reason that it should be included. Again, see Dichotomy.
I'm not throwing the criticism to the wayside, I'm considering EVERYONE'S criticism properly. If half the people around you are saying "you're too fat" and the others are saying "you're too skinny" then it's a fair bet that you're not either.
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