There's no sense and setting up your guidelines for a thread, we have two massive stickied guides for that, and it's not gonna stop people posting how they want...
If I have my own guidelines, I get to be as big of a "jerk" that I want to about them, and I'll have good reasoning not to respond to others who don't consider them in the slightest. I'm a picky jerk who loves to complain about the way the forums work, mind you.
I only see this as something that slightly slows down the player's move up the ladder for better ores. It would take a bit longer to go from stone-to-iron than copper-to-iron, which is the point of the suggestion, but I don't see that as being a good thing. I see that more as a neutral "why not" sort of change...
Well, I am glad you see the dilemma in the situation. It's a completely neutral change that is not necessarily harmful or helpful to the game, but a bit of both at once, with some players liking it and others not liking it. If I understood you correctly, then yes, the point is to pace the early parts of the game a bit slower to match the pace of Iron > Diamond > Nether > Endgame. It also adds a new and unique ore that could have lots of uses, since like gold, it has many appliances outside of tools (in real life, that is).
Copper Rails - This alone would ensure copper stays useful once the player finds iron. Creating a railway of significant length ordinarily uses a large amount of iron. Seeing as the iron is usually better used elsewhere I usually end up never bothering with rails, this will encourage players to use minecarts and railways for player and item transportation.
I'd like the idea of copper being used for powered rails, as copper does conduct electricity. But replacing iron wouldn't be something that would ever happen, it's too unbalanced and frankly iron just makes more sense
There's no sense and setting up your guidelines for a thread, we have two massive stickied guides for that, and it's not gonna stop people posting how they want...
I only see this as something that slightly slows down the player's move up the ladder for better ores. It would take a bit longer to go from stone-to-iron than copper-to-iron, which is the point of the suggestion, but I don't see that as being a good thing. I see that more as a neutral "why not" sort of change...
There is sense in setting up the guidelines when they aren't the same as the stickied threads. And Shaddy said himself people can post however they want, it just wouldn't be as good for the discussion. And it's not as much of a "why not" change when you acknowledge the fact that copper is intended to have more uses than just this.
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Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
If I have my own guidelines, I get to be as big of a "jerk" that I want to about them, and I'll have good reasoning not to respond to others who don't consider them in the slightest. I'm a picky jerk who loves to complain about the way the forums work, mind you.
It doesn't matter whether you have guidelines or not, nasty posters will be nasty regardless, they won't "shape up" and straighten their ties just because they see the OP added some "rules" to posting in their threads.
Well, I am glad you see the dilemma in the situation. It's a completely neutral change that is not necessarily harmful or helpful to the game, but a bit of both at once, with some players liking it and others not liking it. If I understood you correctly, then yes, the point is to pace the early parts of the game a bit slower to match the pace of Iron > Diamond > Nether > Endgame. It also adds a new and unique ore that could have lots of uses, since like gold, it has many appliances outside of tools (in real life, that is).
You want a suggestion to be beneficial, not neutral. Otherwise the only responses you'll get are "eeehh I don't see the point this.", "eeehh sure why not?" or "eeehh I don't know..." This copper isn't very unique or new if it just swaps stone. What does mentioning copper's uses in real life prove?
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
It doesn't matter whether you have guidelines or not, nasty posters will be nasty regardless, they won't "shape up" and straighten their ties just because they see the OP added some "rules" to posting in their threads. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing to ask people to be nice. Guidelines. Not rules.
You want a suggestion to be beneficial, not neutral. Otherwise the only responses you'll get are "eeehh I don't see the point this.", "eeehh sure why not?" or "eeehh I don't know..." This copper isn't very unique or new if it just swaps stone. What does mentioning copper's uses in real life prove? He meant in-game silly.
Responses in bold. Sorry if I repeated myself a little, I know I ninja-ed you
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Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
The ore would have to be quite common to prevent this, without being so common that the player has stacks and stacks of the stuff by mid-game.
Good point but no different than having stacks and stacks of cobblestone by mid game using stone tools because cobblestone only has so many uses. So it needs to be somewhat common especially if stone tools are eliminated.
Good point but no different than having stacks and stacks of cobblestone by mid game using stone tools because cobblestone only has so many uses. So it needs to be somewhat common especially if stone tools are eliminated.
Well cobble is like the most commonly used item in crafting recipes, or at least something close. Hopefully though, copper would also have a plethora of uses. (That's right, I used the word "plethora")
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Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
It doesn't matter whether you have guidelines or not, nasty posters will be nasty regardless, they won't "shape up" and straighten their ties just because they see the OP added some "rules" to posting in their threads.
I don't expect nasty posters to stop being nasty, but rather, it's a guideline on what I believe is important things when discussing a suggestion rather than just saying yay or nay with reasonings behind it.
You want a suggestion to be beneficial, not neutral. Otherwise the only responses you'll get are "eeehh I don't see the point this.", "eeehh sure why not?" or "eeehh I don't know..." This copper isn't very unique or new if it just swaps stone.
This is exactly why I posted this neutrally with the huge focus on discussion. I can see that it's neither a good or a bad suggestion.
And the way that copper replaces stone tools actually has a large effect on gameplay, since it shifts the focus of early game from "Get wood > Get stone" to "Get wood > Explore for copper > Get copper > Smelt copper", adding exploration and smelting to the very early game part.
It gives the player a reason to explore early on rather than staying near their spawn, since the first ore you need would be easier to get by finding it on the surface rather than mining since wood tools are slow.
What does mentioning copper's uses in real life prove?
Because, unlike iron and gold, copper is usually used for things that iron and diamonds aren't used for, such as sculpturing and other things. For most of the things made with iron, it's just used as a malleable and durable material, but with copper there are many things you can make using its properties.
Don't forget that realism is a powerful tool to make things seem familiar. We associate iron with a generic metal because it's... Generically used, and in the same way, we associate gold and diamonds with jewelry and "valuable" things. Imo, realism is one of the most important things in a game no matter what, in moderate amounts of course.
I don't expect nasty posters to stop being nasty, but rather, it's a guideline on what I believe is important things when discussing a suggestion rather than just saying yay or nay with reasonings behind it.
We're going in circles now. In short, posting your guidelines changes nothing. Even the first reply in this thread just flat out said "nope, not readin' 'em!"
This is exactly why I posted this neutrally with the huge focus on discussion. I can see that it's neither a good or a bad suggestion.
And the way that copper replaces stone tools actually has a large effect on gameplay, since it shifts the focus of early game from "Get wood > Get stone" to "Get wood > Explore for copper > Get copper > Smelt copper", adding exploration and smelting to the very early game part.
That sounds like semi-hidden idea farming.
Because, unlike iron and gold, copper is usually used for things that iron and diamonds aren't used for, such as sculpturing and other things. For most of the things made with iron, it's just used as a malleable and durable material, but with copper there are many things you can make using its properties.
If you plan on having copper do more than just be a replacement for stone, you should at least list some of those uses. Right now we just have "Here's copper, think of the possibilities!" and at the time of this post, not one unique use is given.
Don't forget that realism is a powerful tool to make things seem familiar. We associate iron with a generic metal because it's... Generically used, and in the same way, we associate gold and diamonds with jewelry and "valuable" things. Imo, realism is one of the most important things in a game no matter what, in moderate amounts of course.
What are you proving by saying this? Obviously you want there to be some form of logic in anything you have in a game. You wouldn't just add a feature where for every sand block you destroy, you can summon 3 frogs with your face, and the frogs are able to paint all grass blocks blue, because paper clips. That's something that encompasses all things in a game, not just copper ore...
Right now, all we have is something that extends the lifetime of wooden tools, and that's nothing special.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
I like the idea. It has a few cons, but the cons really are circumstantial-- this is basically the combat system having a lot of cons and a lot of pros and people arguing--who should be discussing-- about that, just on a smaller level. Overall, I think early-game tiers need to be balanced, and this would do it. I want to see more from this idea.
As for the guidelines-- just don't argue against the guidelines. They're for the organizational purposes for those whom decide to comply with them-- and those people exist. The suggestion is balanced between pros and cons and it's up to us to help contribute to the discussion so we can make the idea better-- I mean, we're the critics, right? The target audience? Our discussion is required to make a suggestion the best it can be.
We're going in circles now. In short, posting your guidelines changes nothing. Even the first reply in this thread just flat out said "nope, not readin' 'em!"
That sounds like semi-hidden idea farming.
If you plan on having copper do more than just be a replacement for stone, you should at least list some of those uses. Right now we just have "Here's copper, think of the possibilities!" and at the time of this post, not one unique use is given.
What are you proving by saying this? Obviously you want there to be some form of logic in anything y people HAVE to stop getting mad at guidelines ou have in a game. You wouldn't just add a feature where for every sand block you destroy, you can summon 3 frogs w okith your face, and the frogs are able to paint all grass blocks blue, because paper clips. That's something that encompasses all things in a game, not just copper ore...
Right now, all we have is something that extends the lifetime o f wooden tools, and that's nothing special.
He clearly said "(in real life, that is)".
Since bold obnoxiously doesn't exist on mobile, I'm going to number my responses according to your paragraphs.
1: ok, people HAVE to stop raging about the guidelines. I believe it was perfectly explained by PineappleWitness, but I'm going to say it too. What Shaddy is doing is trying to get people to go from the "offer support, or critique to make the suggestion good and I it's good leave it how it is" to "generate discussion, keeping the good threads that have plenty to talk about in the front. Which is literally everything that Suggestions wants in a perfect world. Everyone resisting the guidelines is just stubbornly insisting on giving unhelpful responses. There's nothing in the rules saying you have to say "support" or "no support". You're SUPPOSED to generate discussion. Shaddy just reminded everyone of that. (Literally all of the active critics except for you had a giant discussion about this, and we ALL agreed it would make suggestions a way better place. Sorry, you just were too busy at the time or something )
2: we all know that you can't throw in a million ideas at once. The new tool tier is the biggest change, and it alone will decide whether copper is a possibility or not. THEN it has to face the challenge of how it would be incorporated into the game thoroughly. Because lets be honest, if Shaddy had started with a million ideas it would've been too much.
3: this was sorta the same as the above paragraph, just leaving this in for ocd and organization reasons.
4: exactly... You just agreed with him. While what you were agreeing with, was him disagreeing with you. You say, real life doesn't matter. He says, real life matters. You say, duh of course real life matters bro it's not just copper.
5: That's pretty special. This would really impact the pace of the game in a huge way. Players who take it slow already, would take it even slower. Like, making houses before getting better than wood tools. Regular players would probably make a full set of wood tools (which Mojang DEFINITELY wants to happen, as shown by there being an achievement for making a wood sword, AND one for making a stone sword (even though making a stone one gives you both)). Speed run players could still find coper relatively quickly though, as they wouldn't be going for the rest of the supplies regular players need, they could just rush the ore tiers. See how long this paragraph is? This is just the impact it has on PACE. (Ok so it looks longer on mobile, whatever)
6: I'm going to refuse to accept that that was in there when I said that. Totally edited that in. (I actually believe he did by the way, sarcasm aside). And still, it matters in real life too, as said by Shaddy AND you.
i cant support this idea mainly because alot of servers players would just mine copper as soon as they could get it therefore making it harder and harder for new players to find said ore closer to spawn especially on larger servers.
also with this idea copper would essentially make it harder for new players to survive without building small huts (i'm thinking of the cooldown timer in 1.9) most people would have a harder time to survive mob attacks with a wooden sword at night while trying to find copper to mine. ex a server with 500 players you'd be lucky to find copper within 1000 blocks of spawn. ex 2. wooden swords break extremely easy and when i'm first exploring a world i usually make a wooden sword at first to survive with due to the fact that i don't like to mine up stone immediately and i usually end up carrying around a few wooden swords because they break so fast therefore making it harder for me to survive at night.
i do however like the slower game progression idea though
For everyone who thinks this would mess up servers: Servers with like 500 tend to reset their spawns and the areas around them quite often, to stop this kind of resource depletion. Also, most servers offer players a starter kit, with IRON tools. So that's not really a problem. And if the server is small enough to have neither of those, it's not big enough for there to be that much resource depletion. It's not like you're gonna find iron next to spawn on a huge server either.
@Prism: yeah, his name is Shaddura and I just call him Shaddy
@teesee: yeah, that's why I put another LESS extreme example. But even if I hadn't, the extreme example is the same thing. I believe the extreme example goes over the same, as it's just about the principle. But still. Just look at the less extreme example if you want (as I suppose the extreme one was ethics, not just technology)
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Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
I'd like the idea of copper being used for powered rails, as copper does conduct electricity. But replacing iron wouldn't be something that would ever happen, it's too unbalanced and frankly iron just makes more sense
The issue of copper being used for powered rails is (I'm assuming) that the typical mid to late game player will have more excess copper than iron.
Thus if copper can be used for powered rails, is more easily accessible than iron (it would have to be for early players to find it useful) then railways would be constructed of mostly powered rails (unless of course both copper and gold were necessary for powered rails).
Regarding Balance:
Minecarts (of various versions) can do the things that a horse can but much slower. They can do the things a Donkey can at roughly the same speed (marginally faster). They can do the same things a lead can faster and more reliably but far more expensively. They can do the same things a row of hoppers can costing less wood, but more iron and a row of droppers is dirt cheap by comparison.
So in terms of balance? Minecarts and rails are already underpowered. Make them cost something that players can have in abundance, and be something other than iron they become more useful.
The sooner you can set up an infrastructure the more beneficial it is in the long run. Making rails mainly out of copper makes that happen all the more quickly making rails more useful mid game, this encourages players to use rails more since expanding on infrastructure is a lot easier than starting from scratch.
Iron makes more sense in real life, sure, but copper rails might be more beneficial to gameplay.
Now, if a mid to late game player won't have a lot of copper then my argument is moot. But even then I'd very much dislike if the ONLY use for copper were to be a transition tier of tools. That's the sticking point of this idea for me.
If copper were to be limited to tools (and maybe a simple decorative block) I'd rather that the crafting recipe for stone tools merely replace cobblestone with flint. Depending on your spawn point gravel could take a bit of effort to find, it further would take a little bit of effort to gather enough flint to keep a steady set of tools going, increasing the length of time you're using wooden tools thus smoothing the transition from wood to stone perhaps not exactly the same as copper but close enough if copper is otherwise useless. Hell, if we really want it to we could even have flint required to be cooked in a furnace to make "hardened flint" before it could be used for tools. That would make it functionally identical to copper (just mined with a shovel instead of a pickaxe), without the need for it to only be found in upper layers of terrain, and it would still have use even late in the game, for crafting arrows.
If you want something rarer than flint you could use clay. Brick tools, or Ceramic tools. I'd just rather not add a new material for it to eventually become useless.
Well the problem with blocks that aren't ores is that they don't reliably spawn the same amount throughout the entire world. As for the copper rails, I'm glad you pointed out people would just use ALL powered rails, I hadn't considered that. I'm inclined to assume that using copper would be a little overpowered for rails, as I see them as a very late game tool, but hey. Maybe that needs to change. I'm open to suggestion for that, and your balancing is definitely spot on
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Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Since bold obnoxiously doesn't exist on mobile, I'm going to number my responses according to your paragraphs.
1: ok, people HAVE to stop raging about the guidelines.
We're not raging over them, we're just bringing it up a lot. But yeah, that subject is getting old.
2: we all know that you can't throw in a million ideas at once. The new tool tier is the biggest change, and it alone will decide whether copper is a possibility or not. THEN it has to face the challenge of how it would be incorporated into the game thoroughly. Because lets be honest, if Shaddy had started with a million ideas it would've been too much.
He wouldn't need to start with a million ideas. He began with the that fact copper replaces stone, extending the lifetime of wooden tools. However, as established, that's a neutral idea. I appreciate what he's going for, but I wouldn't call this a "good suggestion" since as of this post, the very basis of the suggestion is purely subjective
4: exactly... You just agreed with him. While what you were agreeing with, was him disagreeing with you. You say, real life doesn't matter. He says, real life matters. You say, duh of course real life matters bro it's not just copper.
You really misunderstood my post by like... a mile 3 miles. Yes, you very obviously want there to be some logical cause-and-effect to anything in a game. That applies to ALL things in ALL games, why does mentioning that help out this copper ore specifically if it's an obvious universal thing? Get me?
5: That's pretty special. This would really impact the pace of the game in a huge way. Players who take it slow already, would take it even slower. Like, making houses before getting better than wood tools. Regular players would probably make a full set of wood tools (which Mojang DEFINITELY wants to happen, as shown by there being an achievement for making a wood sword, AND one for making a stone sword (even though making a stone one gives you both)). Speed run players could still find coper relatively quickly though, as they wouldn't be going for the rest of the supplies regular players need, they could just rush the ore tiers. See how long this paragraph is? This is just the impact it has on PACE. (Ok so it looks longer on mobile, whatever)
You started out being a bit too optimistic, and then you sort of cancel that out what you just said toward the end. A player is probably not gonna go "I have to spend longer time with wooden tools, and that's awesome!" They're just wooden tools, and copper ore is easy to find anyway, so this isn't some sort of ultra innovative idea. All you are is spending a little more time finding working your way to iron stuff.
At best, you're adding some delay to move up to iron things, and that's... really it. That delay isn't some sort of thing that'll make us grin ear to ear. It's just a slowed method of upgrading. That doesn't magically make an idea good.
6: I'm going to refuse to accept that that was in there when I said that. Totally edited that in. (I actually believe he did by the way, sarcasm aside). And still, it matters in real life too, as said by Shaddy AND you.
The real life thing could have applied to tin ore, or aluminum ore, or literally anything on the same "level" of copper ore. The real life line could have applied to 1,000 other things with the same framework.
I enjoy being salty
Amen, brother.
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
We're not raging over them, we're just bringing it up a lot. But yeah, that subject is getting old. Yeah, "raging" was an exaggeration.
He wouldn't need to start with a million ideas. He began with the that fact copper replaces stone, extending the lifetime of wooden tools. However, as established, that's a neutral idea. I appreciate what he's going for, but I wouldn't call this a "good suggestion" since as of this post, the very basis of the suggestion is purely subjective Well, it's just your specific opinion that it's not good. In mine, and others', it is. And you didn't really respond to what I was saying, which is you have to get the basis of the idea accepted before even considering how it would connect to the more intricate things in the game.
You really misunderstood my post by like... a mile 3 miles. Yes, you very obviously want there to be some logical cause-and-effect to anything in a game. That applies to ALL things in ALL games, why does mentioning that help out this copper ore specifically if it's an obvious universal thing? Get me? You're still not really making sense... it doesn't help out specifically copper ore. But you said "why would its real-life uses matter?" Which contradicts what you just said, which was basically "real-life uses matter for everything in every game". Simply put, its real-life uses matter (no more than it does for other items, but that doesn't make it matter any less for copper).
You started out being a bit too optimistic, and then you sort of cancel that out what you just said toward the end. A player is probably not gonna go "I have to spend longer time with wooden tools, and that's awesome!" They're just wooden tools, and copper ore is easy to find anyway, so this isn't some sort of ultra innovative idea. All you are is spending a little more time finding working your way to iron stuff. To you that may be a small change. But to others it could be enormous. And what I was trying to say further in was, if you hate the idea of slowing your game, you can negate it and find it fast. But most players I think would appreciate the pace, and would just take their time. (so the begginning was for most people, and the rest was just for everyone who's like "but this ruins speedruns so it obviously wouldn't work in the game duh!"
At best, you're adding some delay to move up to iron things, and that's... really it. That delay isn't some sort of thing that'll make us grin ear to ear. It's just a slowed method of upgrading. That doesn't magically make an idea good. So what if that's it? A change of pace is a massive thing. You're under-appreciating how carefully planned out the graduation speeds are for the tier levels.
The real life thing could have applied to tin ore, or aluminum ore, or literally anything on the same "level" of copper ore. The real life line could have applied to 1,000 other things with the same framework. So? If it works for anything else, that doesn't mean it doesn't work for copper. The one thing that randomly made copper more desirable, is, as Shaddy said, he thinks MC needs a reddish ore. If a different ore would work better for getting it interwoven with all the other crafting recipes, I'm sure that could be arranged.
Amen, brother.
Responses in bold.
Salty squad, AWAY!
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Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Well, it's just your specific opinion that it's not good. In mine, and others', it is. And you didn't really respond to what I was saying, which is you have to get the basis of the idea accepted before even considering how it would connect to the more intricate things in the game.
Well, whether anyone thinks this is good or bad, it's still very subjective. As of right now, it just extends the lifetime of wood tools. That alone doesn't somehow make the game better.
You're still not really making sense... it doesn't help out specifically copper ore. But you said "why would its real-life uses matter?" Which contradicts what you just said, which was basically "real-life uses matter for everything in every game". Simply put, its real-lifeuses matter (no more than it does for other items, but that doesn't make it matter any less for copper).
Let me break this down. When I asked "Why would real life uses matter?" I was asking how mentioning that strengthens his suggestion. As for the "real-life uses matter for everything in every game" part, let me give an example:
Say you and some friends decide to open a restaurant, and one of you says, "We should sell a potato chip, green bean and pepperoni casserole!!" and another of you replies, "Dude, that's absolutely disgusting, why we would ever have that?" Then the guy who came up with the nasty food idea goes "We need food to stay alive! That's why we eat it all the time!!" You don't say?
Was what Mr. Bad Casserole was saying, true? Yes. Did stating that obvious fact make the idea sound better? No. That's what's going on in this thread.
So what if that's it? A change of pace is a massive thing. You're under-appreciating how carefully planned out the graduation speeds are for the tier levels.
M... Massive? This isn't some sort of new tier, it's a replacement tier that's easy to find, and as such, doesn't drastically change the pacing of tier upgrades all that much. If an ore is gonna exist, it should be presented with more uses from the start otherwise it's practically a "there just to be there" ore.
So? If it works for anything else, that doesn't mean it doesn't work for copper. The one thing that randomly made copper more desirable, is, as Shaddy said, he thinks MC needs a reddish ore. If a different ore would work better for getting it interwoven with all the other crafting recipes, I'm sure that could be arranged.
These are things that should be presented up front.
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Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
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Rather than replacing stone and extending the lifetime of wooden tools; Copper would be better fit into an in-between tier between stone and iron, with a slight rebalance of what players can and can't mine with each tier.
Wood being fairly useless and soft, i'd suggest half the current wooden pickaxe durability and only able to mine stone, hardened clay, cobblestone and other player-built stone blocks, but no ores or rocks (Diorite, Granite, etc...); Stone being the next tier up can mine rock, coal and copper, but not iron. Copper (and gold) can mine Iron, Gold and Lapis Ores but not Redstone, Netherquartz, Emerald or Diamond ores; Ironcan do everything except Obsidian; Diamond is as it is.
Thus, tiered progression. Rather than lengthening the time one uses the useless wooden tools, it lengthens the total progression by slotting in a new tier, instead of replacing it with a superfluous copy.
If I have my own guidelines, I get to be as big of a "jerk" that I want to about them, and I'll have good reasoning not to respond to others who don't consider them in the slightest. I'm a picky jerk who loves to complain about the way the forums work, mind you.
Well, I am glad you see the dilemma in the situation. It's a completely neutral change that is not necessarily harmful or helpful to the game, but a bit of both at once, with some players liking it and others not liking it. If I understood you correctly, then yes, the point is to pace the early parts of the game a bit slower to match the pace of Iron > Diamond > Nether > Endgame. It also adds a new and unique ore that could have lots of uses, since like gold, it has many appliances outside of tools (in real life, that is).
I like the idea of this being a mostly surface-spawning ore, it alleviates many of the problems, and adds a new twist to the game.
I'd like the idea of copper being used for powered rails, as copper does conduct electricity. But replacing iron wouldn't be something that would ever happen, it's too unbalanced and frankly iron just makes more sense
There is sense in setting up the guidelines when they aren't the same as the stickied threads. And Shaddy said himself people can post however they want, it just wouldn't be as good for the discussion. And it's not as much of a "why not" change when you acknowledge the fact that copper is intended to have more uses than just this.
Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Stuff I support:
Click here to get Rick-Rolled. No seriously
It doesn't matter whether you have guidelines or not, nasty posters will be nasty regardless, they won't "shape up" and straighten their ties just because they see the OP added some "rules" to posting in their threads.
You want a suggestion to be beneficial, not neutral. Otherwise the only responses you'll get are "eeehh I don't see the point this.", "eeehh sure why not?" or "eeehh I don't know..." This copper isn't very unique or new if it just swaps stone. What does mentioning copper's uses in real life prove?
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
Responses in bold. Sorry if I repeated myself a little, I know I ninja-ed you
Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Stuff I support:
Click here to get Rick-Rolled. No seriously
Good point but no different than having stacks and stacks of cobblestone by mid game using stone tools because cobblestone only has so many uses. So it needs to be somewhat common especially if stone tools are eliminated.
Well cobble is like the most commonly used item in crafting recipes, or at least something close. Hopefully though, copper would also have a plethora of uses. (That's right, I used the word "plethora")
Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
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I don't expect nasty posters to stop being nasty, but rather, it's a guideline on what I believe is important things when discussing a suggestion rather than just saying yay or nay with reasonings behind it.
This is exactly why I posted this neutrally with the huge focus on discussion. I can see that it's neither a good or a bad suggestion.
And the way that copper replaces stone tools actually has a large effect on gameplay, since it shifts the focus of early game from "Get wood > Get stone" to "Get wood > Explore for copper > Get copper > Smelt copper", adding exploration and smelting to the very early game part.
It gives the player a reason to explore early on rather than staying near their spawn, since the first ore you need would be easier to get by finding it on the surface rather than mining since wood tools are slow.
Because, unlike iron and gold, copper is usually used for things that iron and diamonds aren't used for, such as sculpturing and other things. For most of the things made with iron, it's just used as a malleable and durable material, but with copper there are many things you can make using its properties.
Don't forget that realism is a powerful tool to make things seem familiar. We associate iron with a generic metal because it's... Generically used, and in the same way, we associate gold and diamonds with jewelry and "valuable" things. Imo, realism is one of the most important things in a game no matter what, in moderate amounts of course.
Yeah but that last point sort of makes it all fall apart about the "realism is a powerful tool" when you mention diamond...
(I cant use quotes, They break for me)
We're going in circles now. In short, posting your guidelines changes nothing. Even the first reply in this thread just flat out said "nope, not readin' 'em!"
That sounds like semi-hidden idea farming.
If you plan on having copper do more than just be a replacement for stone, you should at least list some of those uses. Right now we just have "Here's copper, think of the possibilities!" and at the time of this post, not one unique use is given.
What are you proving by saying this? Obviously you want there to be some form of logic in anything you have in a game. You wouldn't just add a feature where for every sand block you destroy, you can summon 3 frogs with your face, and the frogs are able to paint all grass blocks blue, because paper clips. That's something that encompasses all things in a game, not just copper ore...
Right now, all we have is something that extends the lifetime of wooden tools, and that's nothing special.
He clearly said "(in real life, that is)".
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
I like the idea. It has a few cons, but the cons really are circumstantial-- this is basically the combat system having a lot of cons and a lot of pros and people arguing--who should be discussing-- about that, just on a smaller level. Overall, I think early-game tiers need to be balanced, and this would do it. I want to see more from this idea.
As for the guidelines-- just don't argue against the guidelines. They're for the organizational purposes for those whom decide to comply with them-- and those people exist. The suggestion is balanced between pros and cons and it's up to us to help contribute to the discussion so we can make the idea better-- I mean, we're the critics, right? The target audience? Our discussion is required to make a suggestion the best it can be.
artist, writer, content producer.
Since bold obnoxiously doesn't exist on mobile, I'm going to number my responses according to your paragraphs.
1: ok, people HAVE to stop raging about the guidelines. I believe it was perfectly explained by PineappleWitness, but I'm going to say it too. What Shaddy is doing is trying to get people to go from the "offer support, or critique to make the suggestion good and I it's good leave it how it is" to "generate discussion, keeping the good threads that have plenty to talk about in the front. Which is literally everything that Suggestions wants in a perfect world. Everyone resisting the guidelines is just stubbornly insisting on giving unhelpful responses. There's nothing in the rules saying you have to say "support" or "no support". You're SUPPOSED to generate discussion. Shaddy just reminded everyone of that. (Literally all of the active critics except for you had a giant discussion about this, and we ALL agreed it would make suggestions a way better place. Sorry, you just were too busy at the time or something )
2: we all know that you can't throw in a million ideas at once. The new tool tier is the biggest change, and it alone will decide whether copper is a possibility or not. THEN it has to face the challenge of how it would be incorporated into the game thoroughly. Because lets be honest, if Shaddy had started with a million ideas it would've been too much.
3: this was sorta the same as the above paragraph, just leaving this in for ocd and organization reasons.
4: exactly... You just agreed with him. While what you were agreeing with, was him disagreeing with you. You say, real life doesn't matter. He says, real life matters. You say, duh of course real life matters bro it's not just copper.
5: That's pretty special. This would really impact the pace of the game in a huge way. Players who take it slow already, would take it even slower. Like, making houses before getting better than wood tools. Regular players would probably make a full set of wood tools (which Mojang DEFINITELY wants to happen, as shown by there being an achievement for making a wood sword, AND one for making a stone sword (even though making a stone one gives you both)). Speed run players could still find coper relatively quickly though, as they wouldn't be going for the rest of the supplies regular players need, they could just rush the ore tiers. See how long this paragraph is? This is just the impact it has on PACE. (Ok so it looks longer on mobile, whatever)
6: I'm going to refuse to accept that that was in there when I said that. Totally edited that in. (I actually believe he did by the way, sarcasm aside). And still, it matters in real life too, as said by Shaddy AND you.
I enjoy being salty
Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Stuff I support:
Click here to get Rick-Rolled. No seriously
@lonsdale you really need to fix your signature please.
OT I know how you feel about topic jumpers but trust me no one is listening. As for the suggestion I am rather fond of iron
and would rather see it be nerfed just a bit personally. From an objective stance there seems no real reason to implement
this. An interesting idea but ore suggestions usually fail. In fact you can find a suggestion I had made for copper that
had redstone benefits but it didn't catch on, even though I spent hours researching and made a clear presentation.
All in all 0% No Support. You're better off not doing ores trust me.
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i cant support this idea mainly because alot of servers players would just mine copper as soon as they could get it therefore making it harder and harder for new players to find said ore closer to spawn especially on larger servers.
also with this idea copper would essentially make it harder for new players to survive without building small huts (i'm thinking of the cooldown timer in 1.9) most people would have a harder time to survive mob attacks with a wooden sword at night while trying to find copper to mine. ex a server with 500 players you'd be lucky to find copper within 1000 blocks of spawn. ex 2. wooden swords break extremely easy and when i'm first exploring a world i usually make a wooden sword at first to survive with due to the fact that i don't like to mine up stone immediately and i usually end up carrying around a few wooden swords because they break so fast therefore making it harder for me to survive at night.
i do however like the slower game progression idea though
For everyone who thinks this would mess up servers: Servers with like 500 tend to reset their spawns and the areas around them quite often, to stop this kind of resource depletion. Also, most servers offer players a starter kit, with IRON tools. So that's not really a problem. And if the server is small enough to have neither of those, it's not big enough for there to be that much resource depletion. It's not like you're gonna find iron next to spawn on a huge server either.
@Prism: yeah, his name is Shaddura and I just call him Shaddy
@teesee: yeah, that's why I put another LESS extreme example. But even if I hadn't, the extreme example is the same thing. I believe the extreme example goes over the same, as it's just about the principle. But still. Just look at the less extreme example if you want (as I suppose the extreme one was ethics, not just technology)
Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Stuff I support:
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The issue of copper being used for powered rails is (I'm assuming) that the typical mid to late game player will have more excess copper than iron.
Thus if copper can be used for powered rails, is more easily accessible than iron (it would have to be for early players to find it useful) then railways would be constructed of mostly powered rails (unless of course both copper and gold were necessary for powered rails).
Regarding Balance:
Minecarts (of various versions) can do the things that a horse can but much slower. They can do the things a Donkey can at roughly the same speed (marginally faster). They can do the same things a lead can faster and more reliably but far more expensively. They can do the same things a row of hoppers can costing less wood, but more iron and a row of droppers is dirt cheap by comparison.
So in terms of balance? Minecarts and rails are already underpowered. Make them cost something that players can have in abundance, and be something other than iron they become more useful.
The sooner you can set up an infrastructure the more beneficial it is in the long run. Making rails mainly out of copper makes that happen all the more quickly making rails more useful mid game, this encourages players to use rails more since expanding on infrastructure is a lot easier than starting from scratch.
Iron makes more sense in real life, sure, but copper rails might be more beneficial to gameplay.
Now, if a mid to late game player won't have a lot of copper then my argument is moot. But even then I'd very much dislike if the ONLY use for copper were to be a transition tier of tools. That's the sticking point of this idea for me.
If copper were to be limited to tools (and maybe a simple decorative block) I'd rather that the crafting recipe for stone tools merely replace cobblestone with flint. Depending on your spawn point gravel could take a bit of effort to find, it further would take a little bit of effort to gather enough flint to keep a steady set of tools going, increasing the length of time you're using wooden tools thus smoothing the transition from wood to stone perhaps not exactly the same as copper but close enough if copper is otherwise useless. Hell, if we really want it to we could even have flint required to be cooked in a furnace to make "hardened flint" before it could be used for tools. That would make it functionally identical to copper (just mined with a shovel instead of a pickaxe), without the need for it to only be found in upper layers of terrain, and it would still have use even late in the game, for crafting arrows.
If you want something rarer than flint you could use clay. Brick tools, or Ceramic tools. I'd just rather not add a new material for it to eventually become useless.
Well the problem with blocks that aren't ores is that they don't reliably spawn the same amount throughout the entire world. As for the copper rails, I'm glad you pointed out people would just use ALL powered rails, I hadn't considered that. I'm inclined to assume that using copper would be a little overpowered for rails, as I see them as a very late game tool, but hey. Maybe that needs to change. I'm open to suggestion for that, and your balancing is definitely spot on
Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Stuff I support:
Click here to get Rick-Rolled. No seriously
We're not raging over them, we're just bringing it up a lot. But yeah, that subject is getting old.
He wouldn't need to start with a million ideas. He began with the that fact copper replaces stone, extending the lifetime of wooden tools. However, as established, that's a neutral idea. I appreciate what he's going for, but I wouldn't call this a "good suggestion" since as of this post, the very basis of the suggestion is purely subjective
You really misunderstood my post by like...
a mile3 miles. Yes, you very obviously want there to be some logical cause-and-effect to anything in a game. That applies to ALL things in ALL games, why does mentioning that help out this copper ore specifically if it's an obvious universal thing? Get me?You started out being a bit too optimistic, and then you sort of cancel that out what you just said toward the end. A player is probably not gonna go "I have to spend longer time with wooden tools, and that's awesome!" They're just wooden tools, and copper ore is easy to find anyway, so this isn't some sort of ultra innovative idea. All you are is spending a little more time finding working your way to iron stuff.
At best, you're adding some delay to move up to iron things, and that's... really it. That delay isn't some sort of thing that'll make us grin ear to ear. It's just a slowed method of upgrading. That doesn't magically make an idea good.
The real life thing could have applied to tin ore, or aluminum ore, or literally anything on the same "level" of copper ore. The real life line could have applied to 1,000 other things with the same framework.
Amen, brother.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
Responses in bold.
Salty squad, AWAY!
Even though my Join date is in 2014, I tried the demo on 8/30/2012, and bought the game two days later on 9/1/2012. So hipster
Stuff I support:
Click here to get Rick-Rolled. No seriously
Well, whether anyone thinks this is good or bad, it's still very subjective. As of right now, it just extends the lifetime of wood tools. That alone doesn't somehow make the game better.
Let me break this down. When I asked "Why would real life uses matter?" I was asking how mentioning that strengthens his suggestion. As for the "real-life uses matter for everything in every game" part, let me give an example:
Say you and some friends decide to open a restaurant, and one of you says, "We should sell a potato chip, green bean and pepperoni casserole!!" and another of you replies, "Dude, that's absolutely disgusting, why we would ever have that?" Then the guy who came up with the nasty food idea goes "We need food to stay alive! That's why we eat it all the time!!" You don't say?
Was what Mr. Bad Casserole was saying, true? Yes. Did stating that obvious fact make the idea sound better? No. That's what's going on in this thread.
M... Massive? This isn't some sort of new tier, it's a replacement tier that's easy to find, and as such, doesn't drastically change the pacing of tier upgrades all that much. If an ore is gonna exist, it should be presented with more uses from the start otherwise it's practically a "there just to be there" ore.
These are things that should be presented up front.
Yeah, that guy in the avatar is me. I'm *that* strange. It happens. Sometimes people act like that. Just go with it. I can offer help with suggestions even before you post them - NOT make your suggestions - but help you with them.
Unofficial Suggestions Guide (2.0) - by Theriasis
Unofficial Critics Guide - by yoshi9048
Rather than replacing stone and extending the lifetime of wooden tools; Copper would be better fit into an in-between tier between stone and iron, with a slight rebalance of what players can and can't mine with each tier.
Wood being fairly useless and soft, i'd suggest half the current wooden pickaxe durability and only able to mine stone, hardened clay, cobblestone and other player-built stone blocks, but no ores or rocks (Diorite, Granite, etc...); Stone being the next tier up can mine rock, coal and copper, but not iron. Copper (and gold) can mine Iron, Gold and Lapis Ores but not Redstone, Netherquartz, Emerald or Diamond ores; Ironcan do everything except Obsidian; Diamond is as it is.
Thus, tiered progression. Rather than lengthening the time one uses the useless wooden tools, it lengthens the total progression by slotting in a new tier, instead of replacing it with a superfluous copy.