I am not too concerned about territory control, or rather not so much as I am about getting AI to play. That should be first with AI detecting a land that is already being used by other AI via some variable, and detecting use by player would be easy as well: don't build near placed, nonnatural blocks. Probably more variables. Deep territorial complexity is less of an interest than to get an actual colony. I mean, its not like we're playing Civilization here.
Right.
Quote from Lysho »
Gravel should have more uses, and clay is already very useful for bricks, but it could be used with gravel. Cobblestone isn't overused or underused as much as gravel is all. Plus gravel is in roads?
Couldn't hurt. I've never found a use for the stuff.
Quote from Lysho »
Yes, the overhead view is a bit more complex but it'd be be a helpful component for more veteran players and larger colonies. It really is just a side thing that would probably be at the bottom of (hopefully an) agenda.
Eh.
Quote from Lysho »
As for enemy AI, will they have more health considering the player may be better(it would be harder to make a good AI swordsman and archer)?
That's for playtesting to decide, really. Most of the fighting will be done by the NPCs, anyway. The player just leads.
Quote from Lysho »
By the way, good point on the road. And there should be little horses that their only function is to be used as cart carriers.
I would be surprised if horses weren't added at one point. We already got saddles.
I read the OP for the second time ever, the first being when I first read this topic. You added a few things but haven't deleted much. Many of those things are outdated, like the" bakers oven" specialized blocks. You should really tidy that post up, and add a few craftables. Weren't there any new items we came up with? Is farming expanded in colony mode for specialized farmers?
And domesticating animals? Wouldn't it be crucial for a developing Colony? Could you own more than one colony? If so, can NPCs be appointed officials and given orders as to how the player would like the city to function(farm-based, focus on production of food and reproduction/expansion of colony, military-based, equip townsfolk and produce sufficient weapons+armor+arrows+TNT and wait when ready, etc.)? In multiplayer, can more than one player occupy a colony? Would both have control? Would power be split, or shared? If a player joined a colony that was at a population cap, would an NPC have to dissapear?
Would new items have to be added for festivity or homeliness in towns? What would be approprate to the game? What would be realistic to find in a town? Could an AI be programmed good enough to connect different structures within the city via road? How big, approximately would a colony with a population of 5 be? 15? 40? State all the conditions that might affect size. Should limit be based on population or land? What if scattered colonies grew too big and their borders clashed? Would a city cap be reached then, despite size or population? Or would the AI not realize and overlap/get confused at foreign block being in their expanded colony?
We have to make sure this idea can run smoothly. Let's see if we can ask and answer as many questions as possible to make this better.
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I read the OP for the second time ever, the first being when I first read this topic. You added a few things but haven't deleted much. Many of those things are outdated, like the" bakers oven" specialized blocks. You should really tidy that post up, and add a few craftables. Weren't there any new items we came up with? Is farming expanded in colony mode for specialized farmers?
Yes, it needs some work. Usually I do my updating when I'm at my office (Dead stick shift, not much happening), but the past two days have left me distracted. I'll tidy it soon.
Quote from Lysho »
And domesticating animals? Wouldn't it be crucial for a developing Colony?
That can already be done without additional coding, really. Level a surface, add soil so grass grows, sprinkle with torches, block off with fencing. Bam, animals out the wazoo.
Quote from Lysho »
Could you own more than one colony?
Maybe, but that would be far down the road.
Quote from Lysho »
If so, can NPCs be appointed officials and given orders as to how the player would like the city to function(farm-based, focus on production of food and reproduction/expansion of colony, military-based, equip townsfolk and produce sufficient weapons+armor+arrows+TNT and wait when ready, etc.)?
I think that's a little over the top. I'm not looking to go conquer-the-world-ish with colony mode. Basic city administration and defense.
Quote from Lysho »
In multiplayer, can more than one player occupy a colony? Would both have control? Would power be split, or shared? If a player joined a colony that was at a population cap, would an NPC have to dissapear?
One colony per player. Players in others' colonies are seen as guests, until offensive actions are conducted, at which point the townspeople run him out of town. Or kill him, whatever.
Quote from Lysho »
Would new items have to be added for festivity or homeliness in towns? What would be approprate to the game? What would be realistic to find in a town?
Aesthetics and window dressing could come later on down the road, and would probably be added by Notch for other things, without the need for specialized colony mode things.
Quote from Lysho »
Could an AI be programmed good enough to connect different structures within the city via road?
Don't see why not.
Quote from Lysho »
How big, approximately would a colony with a population of 5 be? 15? 40? State all the conditions that might affect size. Should limit be based on population or land?
I'm kind of unsure what you mean here. If you're asking "What determines how many colonists will move in?", that would depend entirely on how much land the player has claimed, and whether or not he's placed flags for locations they'll build their homes in.
Quote from Lysho »
What if scattered colonies grew too big and their borders clashed? Would a city cap be reached then, despite size or population? Or would the AI not realize and overlap/get confused at foreign block being in their expanded colony?
I'm thinking 20 colonists per town / city is plenty. Depending on how big territories wind up, on average, that could change. And border clashes would spark combat. Or trade, if the player is willing to shell out gold for land.
Quote from Lysho »
We have to make sure this idea can run smoothly. Let's see if we can ask and answer as many questions as possible to make this better.
Is the only new item were adding Road? Is it just a gravel and clay?
As for the population, I meant how big would the colony be with 5 peple? Around 54x54 block area or something? Or 30x30, maybe 200x200. Plus, some colonists will take up less space than others. For example, one farmer could use 3x the space as a soldier. with that in mind, why not have two conditions to cap a colony, size or population?
How much faster would the road actually be? 1.25% faster on foot, 1.50% on possible transports?
How will a player actually make diplomacy with other colonies? Will it be RPG-like with menu buttons of chat or somewhat?
Will naval items be expanded? Harpoons to attach to a boat(like torches attaching to wall)? Harpoons could shoot arrows. Considering possible war, will newer and better defensive items or blocks need to be added?
Picks can easy pierce stone walls, and once you're on the inside, you wont get shot by arrows because you're deep underneath the posted archers. And if you're digging straight, the enemy has only direction to get you and you could easily defend yourself.
TNT isn't too hard to obtain after some nights and can annihilate enemy walls, or if an enemy attacks at night, could have those exploding green guys blow up against the enemy wall.
Redstone attaches to the floor and causes an electrical current. If we had some sort of substance that could attach to the side of something, it could make it somewhat resistant to explosion, some gel perhaps made of dye, or ink sacs, maybe cactus to give those some use.
Also if a blacksmith forges the stone blocks in his furnace, could it receive bonus durability against enemy picks, like some sort of Masonry bonus?
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I am not too concerned about territory control, or rather not so much as I am about getting AI to play. That should be first with AI detecting a land that is already being used by other AI via some variable, and detecting use by player would be easy as well: don't build near placed, nonnatural blocks. Probably more variables. Deep territorial complexity is less of an interest than to get an actual colony. I mean, its not like we're playing Civilization here..
I think the best way to accomplish that would be to maintain a list of npc-owned buildings in each chunk, as well as their dimenstions and npc-owned blocks, rather than trying to put more data on a block type. It would be relatively easy to do something like GetNPCHouses(blockId) and have it return a list of dimensions that would be off-limits for NPCs to build on.
Is the only new item were adding Road? Is it just a gravel and clay?
The point of the whole exercise is to get a colony mode going. I don't intend on recommending a swath of items to be added on top of it.
Quote from Lysho »
As for the population, I meant how big would the colony be with 5 peple? Around 54x54 block area or something? Or 30x30, maybe 200x200. Plus, some colonists will take up less space than others. For example, one farmer could use 3x the space as a soldier. with that in mind, why not have two conditions to cap a colony, size or population?
As said before, there will be a cap on size, simply because a map completely covered by buildings would be annoying. What that cap would be can really only be figured out via testing.
Quote from Lysho »
How much faster would the road actually be? 1.25% faster on foot, 1.50% on possible transports?
I'd say that should be determined with testing as well.
Quote from Lysho »
How will a player actually make diplomacy with other colonies? Will it be RPG-like with menu buttons of chat or somewhat?
No new menus. Just by how the player behaves. If he trades, relations improve. If he raids, they get angry. Simple enough.
Quote from Lysho »
Will naval items be expanded? Harpoons to attach to a boat(like torches attaching to wall)? Harpoons could shoot arrows. Considering possible war, will newer and better defensive items or blocks need to be added?
Not really a need for it, as of yet. I'd rather see colony mode be added and working before adding swaths of new items on top of it.
Quote from Lysho »
Picks can easy pierce stone walls, and once you're on the inside, you wont get shot by arrows because you're deep underneath the posted archers. And if you're digging straight, the enemy has only direction to get you and you could easily defend yourself.
That's why soldiers are handy. They're armored and pack swords.
Quote from Lysho »
TNT isn't too hard to obtain after some nights and can annihilate enemy walls, or if an enemy attacks at night, could have those exploding green guys blow up against the enemy wall.
Yep.
Quote from Lysho »
Redstone attaches to the floor and causes an electrical current. If we had some sort of substance that could attach to the side of something, it could make it somewhat resistant to explosion, some gel perhaps made of dye, or ink sacs, maybe cactus to give those some use.
Obsidian works well enough.
Quote from Lysho »
Also if a blacksmith forges the stone blocks in his furnace, could it receive bonus durability against enemy picks, like some sort of Masonry bonus?
Maybe. Something to be considered if Notch ever sees this, if he agrees and likes the idea, and if he implements it. Too many IFs as of yet. Personally, as cool as this idea is, I think the likelyhood of implementation is quite minute.
I didn't read all you said in your second wall of text, but from what you described I definitely approve. There certainly needs to be an Adventure or Colony mode where you build up civilizations and economies and such.
In that case, to be basic and straightforward, we should have our foundations built to have any hope of this being implemented. We shouldn't ask for a fullfledged component all at once because it doesn't seem promising. We should stay a little smaller but still have an infrastructure to build the fullfledged components on.
Then roads can be the only new item but what are they crafted of?
Doesn't TNT destroy everything in its radius regardless of the block type? Obsidian would fare no better then against an explosion than dirt. But this is something that is not as important for the building blocks of a colony mode, just something to keep in mind.
What would be the easiest AI? Maybe we should just request some sort of AI first, even if it only chopped wood or built a dirt shack. Basic surface collection and blockplacing seems easy enough.
What would exactly be the only difference between colony and adventure mode? We should clarify that there may/may not be new items(either by no new items or items may be added to adventure mode as well), what kind of AI would be present, and any new features or coding that would be necessary.
For example, some new feature would be the karma system. By the way, by trade I meant, how would you do that? And how do you rally people as you've said in your wall of text? You've made quite a few examples that would need more than just behavior.
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In that case, to be basic and straightforward, we should have our foundations built to have any hope of this being implemented. We shouldn't ask for a fullfledged component all at once because it doesn't seem promising. We should stay a little smaller but still have an infrastructure to build the fullfledged components on.
Then roads can be the only new item but what are they crafted of?
Doesn't TNT destroy everything in its radius regardless of the block type? Obsidian would fare no better then against an explosion than dirt. But this is something that is not as important for the building blocks of a colony mode, just something to keep in mind.
What would be the easiest AI? Maybe we should just request some sort of AI first, even if it only chopped wood or built a dirt shack. Basic surface collection and blockplacing seems easy enough.
What would exactly be the only difference between colony and adventure mode? We should clarify that there may/may not be new items(either by no new items or items may be added to adventure mode as well), what kind of AI would be present, and any new features or coding that would be necessary.
For example, some new feature would be the karma system. By the way, by trade I meant, how would you do that? And how do you rally people as you've said in your wall of text? You've made quite a few examples that would need more than just behavior.
You have a big point there, but some blocks now have more resistance to TnT, obsidian is one of the most request blocks of all because it has the highest durability against anything it takes more than 1 block of TnT to Destroy Obsidian (I don't know how much is actually need to blow up obsidian...)....wow everything I'm trying to say sounds stupid lol so I'm gonna end my sentence......here
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True. Which tool actually breaks obsidian? It seems so strong, an iron can destroy stone+other resources but obsidian? Its difficult to acquire unless you planted lava+water effectively to get the job done for you. And to cover the perimeter of a whole colony with the stuff? I doubt most of the game wont have obsidian walls, so TnT is destructive. Its almost as if, then, that either the enemy gets completely annihilated by TnT or doesn't take much effect at all because of their obsidian wall. Both scenarios are far too radical, and not only that, but it leaves no intermediates. I thought we had progressing?
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True. Which tool actually breaks obsidian? It seems so strong, an iron can destroy stone+other resources but obsidian? Its difficult to acquire unless you planted lava+water effectively to get the job done for you. And to cover the perimeter of a whole colony with the stuff? I doubt most of the game wont have obsidian walls, so TnT is destructive. Its almost as if, then, that either the enemy gets completely annihilated by TnT or doesn't take much effect at all because of their obsidian wall. Both scenarios are far too radical, and not only that, but it leaves no intermediates. I thought we had progressing?
A Diamond Pick takes 15 seconds to mine, that is the fastest way to mine Obsidian, idk if you could gather Obsidian by exploding it
And a Bunch of TnT will blow a chunk in obsidian nothing is invincible not even Bedrock it just takes an immense amount of TnT just search up hole in bedrock minecraft, in youtube and you'll see what i mean
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Its not so much about the strength and weakness of obsidian, but that its strong, very strong. And stone is not as strong, not even close. and there is nothing to fill in the gap between these levels of strength for a wall, which is pretty remote. We should have at least 1 intermediate-strength block for a wall, because with stoone or obsidian, either you destroy the stone wall and slaughter the village, or you scratch the walls of an obsidian and get killed before you have time.
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Its not so much about the strength and weakness of obsidian, but that its strong, very strong. And stone is not as strong, not even close. and there is nothing to fill in the gap between these levels of strength for a wall, which is pretty remote. We should have at least 1 intermediate-strength block for a wall, because with stone or obsidian, either you destroy the stone wall and slaughter the village, or you scratch the walls of an obsidian and get killed before you have time.
I'm pretty sure that's brick , it is more resistant to TnT than Stone and takes a while to break (Not as much as Obsidian),
But Fences and Stairs makes me angry cause they are surprisingly strong (axes don't help either) and they are made of wood
Anyways back on Topic, Clay which makes bricks is again pretty remote, so from everything with stone and lower is easy to find but brick and obsidian are the hardest to find,I'm pretty sure that is what fills the gap between stone and obsidian, (Brick is harder to find because you can't farm it)
If your confused I think it goes
Stone
Wood Fences/Stairs
Brick
Obsidian
Maybe after Notch gets this place out of Beta he will make stuff more "realistic" and add more blocks or wat-not (Notch is working very, very hard {assumption})
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Its not so much about the strength and weakness of obsidian, but that its strong, very strong. And stone is not as strong, not even close. and there is nothing to fill in the gap between these levels of strength for a wall, which is pretty remote. We should have at least 1 intermediate-strength block for a wall, because with stoone or obsidian, either you destroy the stone wall and slaughter the village, or you scratch the walls of an obsidian and get killed before you have time.
It's too bad that the Iron block is used primarily for storage. I would like to see structures crafted out of iron. Iron, I guess, would probably make a good gradation between Wood < Cobblestone < Smooth stone < Brick < Iron < Obsidian if they did it right. Except for the rarity of clay, to actually gather enough iron to make an iron structure or iron wall would take forever... but not HALF as long as obsidian (unless you farmed it, which I guess is remotely possible) and not need the diamond pickaxe to get it. To gather the iron it would mainly require risking the caves and a stone pickaxe or higher.
But to my understanding, the Iron block isn't actually that durable, is it?
EDIT----
It would be great if you could smelt iron blocks into steel blocks. That way you could amp up the expense even further, without still passing the difficulty to get obsidian. And steel would DEFINITELY be stronger than brick.
But to my understanding, the Iron block isn't actually that durable, is it?
As durable as a Diamond One, (Not very durable)
....wait...are you following me? if you are i'll send wave after wave of s and s to you mwahahahahaha
Haha I'm not trying to. I guess we're just interested in the same basic stuff XD
Yeah, I really hate the storage blocks. If I were Notch I would take those out and make the blocks proper materials on their own. I don't really get the point, chests provide ample storage on their own, right? like.... umpteen million slots for one block space instead of just /9/ resources for the same amount of space.
Right.
Couldn't hurt. I've never found a use for the stuff.
Eh.
That's for playtesting to decide, really. Most of the fighting will be done by the NPCs, anyway. The player just leads.
I would be surprised if horses weren't added at one point. We already got saddles.
Bam. Introduce horses and you get society.
And domesticating animals? Wouldn't it be crucial for a developing Colony? Could you own more than one colony? If so, can NPCs be appointed officials and given orders as to how the player would like the city to function(farm-based, focus on production of food and reproduction/expansion of colony, military-based, equip townsfolk and produce sufficient weapons+armor+arrows+TNT and wait when ready, etc.)? In multiplayer, can more than one player occupy a colony? Would both have control? Would power be split, or shared? If a player joined a colony that was at a population cap, would an NPC have to dissapear?
Would new items have to be added for festivity or homeliness in towns? What would be approprate to the game? What would be realistic to find in a town? Could an AI be programmed good enough to connect different structures within the city via road? How big, approximately would a colony with a population of 5 be? 15? 40? State all the conditions that might affect size. Should limit be based on population or land? What if scattered colonies grew too big and their borders clashed? Would a city cap be reached then, despite size or population? Or would the AI not realize and overlap/get confused at foreign block being in their expanded colony?
We have to make sure this idea can run smoothly. Let's see if we can ask and answer as many questions as possible to make this better.
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viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=169172
Yes, it needs some work. Usually I do my updating when I'm at my office (Dead stick shift, not much happening), but the past two days have left me distracted. I'll tidy it soon.
That can already be done without additional coding, really. Level a surface, add soil so grass grows, sprinkle with torches, block off with fencing. Bam, animals out the wazoo.
Maybe, but that would be far down the road.
I think that's a little over the top. I'm not looking to go conquer-the-world-ish with colony mode. Basic city administration and defense.
One colony per player. Players in others' colonies are seen as guests, until offensive actions are conducted, at which point the townspeople run him out of town. Or kill him, whatever.
Aesthetics and window dressing could come later on down the road, and would probably be added by Notch for other things, without the need for specialized colony mode things.
Don't see why not.
I'm kind of unsure what you mean here. If you're asking "What determines how many colonists will move in?", that would depend entirely on how much land the player has claimed, and whether or not he's placed flags for locations they'll build their homes in.
I'm thinking 20 colonists per town / city is plenty. Depending on how big territories wind up, on average, that could change. And border clashes would spark combat. Or trade, if the player is willing to shell out gold for land.
Sure. I'll try to field them all.
As for the population, I meant how big would the colony be with 5 peple? Around 54x54 block area or something? Or 30x30, maybe 200x200. Plus, some colonists will take up less space than others. For example, one farmer could use 3x the space as a soldier. with that in mind, why not have two conditions to cap a colony, size or population?
How much faster would the road actually be? 1.25% faster on foot, 1.50% on possible transports?
How will a player actually make diplomacy with other colonies? Will it be RPG-like with menu buttons of chat or somewhat?
Will naval items be expanded? Harpoons to attach to a boat(like torches attaching to wall)? Harpoons could shoot arrows. Considering possible war, will newer and better defensive items or blocks need to be added?
Picks can easy pierce stone walls, and once you're on the inside, you wont get shot by arrows because you're deep underneath the posted archers. And if you're digging straight, the enemy has only direction to get you and you could easily defend yourself.
TNT isn't too hard to obtain after some nights and can annihilate enemy walls, or if an enemy attacks at night, could have those exploding green guys blow up against the enemy wall.
Redstone attaches to the floor and causes an electrical current. If we had some sort of substance that could attach to the side of something, it could make it somewhat resistant to explosion, some gel perhaps made of dye, or ink sacs, maybe cactus to give those some use.
Also if a blacksmith forges the stone blocks in his furnace, could it receive bonus durability against enemy picks, like some sort of Masonry bonus?
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viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=169172
I think the best way to accomplish that would be to maintain a list of npc-owned buildings in each chunk, as well as their dimenstions and npc-owned blocks, rather than trying to put more data on a block type. It would be relatively easy to do something like GetNPCHouses(blockId) and have it return a list of dimensions that would be off-limits for NPCs to build on.
The point of the whole exercise is to get a colony mode going. I don't intend on recommending a swath of items to be added on top of it.
As said before, there will be a cap on size, simply because a map completely covered by buildings would be annoying. What that cap would be can really only be figured out via testing.
I'd say that should be determined with testing as well.
No new menus. Just by how the player behaves. If he trades, relations improve. If he raids, they get angry. Simple enough.
Not really a need for it, as of yet. I'd rather see colony mode be added and working before adding swaths of new items on top of it.
That's why soldiers are handy. They're armored and pack swords.
Yep.
Obsidian works well enough.
Maybe. Something to be considered if Notch ever sees this, if he agrees and likes the idea, and if he implements it. Too many IFs as of yet. Personally, as cool as this idea is, I think the likelyhood of implementation is quite minute.
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Then roads can be the only new item but what are they crafted of?
Doesn't TNT destroy everything in its radius regardless of the block type? Obsidian would fare no better then against an explosion than dirt. But this is something that is not as important for the building blocks of a colony mode, just something to keep in mind.
What would be the easiest AI? Maybe we should just request some sort of AI first, even if it only chopped wood or built a dirt shack. Basic surface collection and blockplacing seems easy enough.
What would exactly be the only difference between colony and adventure mode? We should clarify that there may/may not be new items(either by no new items or items may be added to adventure mode as well), what kind of AI would be present, and any new features or coding that would be necessary.
For example, some new feature would be the karma system. By the way, by trade I meant, how would you do that? And how do you rally people as you've said in your wall of text? You've made quite a few examples that would need more than just behavior.
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viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=169172
You have a big point there, but some blocks now have more resistance to TnT, obsidian is one of the most request blocks of all because it has the highest durability against anything it takes more than 1 block of TnT to Destroy Obsidian (I don't know how much is actually need to blow up obsidian...)....wow everything I'm trying to say sounds stupid lol so I'm gonna end my sentence......here
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A Diamond Pick takes 15 seconds to mine, that is the fastest way to mine Obsidian, idk if you could gather Obsidian by exploding it
And a Bunch of TnT will blow a chunk in obsidian nothing is invincible not even Bedrock it just takes an immense amount of TnT just search up hole in bedrock minecraft, in youtube and you'll see what i mean
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*stake*
But I've yet to meet someone who can outlast fire.
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I'm pretty sure that's brick , it is more resistant to TnT than Stone and takes a while to break (Not as much as Obsidian),
But Fences and Stairs makes me angry cause they are surprisingly strong (axes don't help either) and they are made of wood
Anyways back on Topic, Clay which makes bricks is again pretty remote, so from everything with stone and lower is easy to find but brick and obsidian are the hardest to find,I'm pretty sure that is what fills the gap between stone and obsidian, (Brick is harder to find because you can't farm it)
If your confused I think it goes
Stone
Wood Fences/Stairs
Brick
Obsidian
Maybe after Notch gets this place out of Beta he will make stuff more "realistic" and add more blocks or wat-not (Notch is working very, very hard {assumption})
I will be using them soon
I'm Starting to be known as a Balancer, A.K.A. I'm starting to become pessimist
It's too bad that the Iron block is used primarily for storage. I would like to see structures crafted out of iron. Iron, I guess, would probably make a good gradation between Wood < Cobblestone < Smooth stone < Brick < Iron < Obsidian if they did it right. Except for the rarity of clay, to actually gather enough iron to make an iron structure or iron wall would take forever... but not HALF as long as obsidian (unless you farmed it, which I guess is remotely possible) and not need the diamond pickaxe to get it. To gather the iron it would mainly require risking the caves and a stone pickaxe or higher.
But to my understanding, the Iron block isn't actually that durable, is it?
EDIT----
It would be great if you could smelt iron blocks into steel blocks. That way you could amp up the expense even further, without still passing the difficulty to get obsidian. And steel would DEFINITELY be stronger than brick.
As durable as a Diamond One, (Not very durable)
....wait...are you following me? if you are i'll send wave after wave of s and s to you mwahahahahaha
I will be using them soon
I'm Starting to be known as a Balancer, A.K.A. I'm starting to become pessimist
Haha I'm not trying to. I guess we're just interested in the same basic stuff XD
Yeah, I really hate the storage blocks. If I were Notch I would take those out and make the blocks proper materials on their own. I don't really get the point, chests provide ample storage on their own, right? like.... umpteen million slots for one block space instead of just /9/ resources for the same amount of space.
JUST MAKE MORE CHESTS YOU LAZY BASTARDS.