So, I've been annoyed lately by the lack of various types of rocks which would help spice up minecraft a ton. Specifically, Marble, Limestone, White diorite and black granite would be a neat addition to Minecraft.
After reading this thread by metadigital, and by playing Dwarf fortress, it is easy to see the possibilities minecraft has for it's underground. Unfortunately, many of the idea's in Meta's thread would be too complicated to make or require dramatic changes which in all likelihood will not ever be implemented by Notch.
Because of this, I'm going to present ideas which can easily (in theory) be added into the current game.
Ok, so here are the ideas:
The Sedimentary Layer.
As of now, Minecraft contains a sedimentary layer ranging from 5-0 thick, with a layer of grass on topmost of the sedimentary layer. This layer persists over all terrain, over mountain and undersea. There are three ideas for this layer:
1: Limestone deposits.
Simple: Using the current deposit generation, Limestone can be classed as a deposit which forms in a bed of dirt. Essentially, where there is dirt, limestone deposits can form. The deposits themselves should be fairly common, at around about one tenth the whole dirt layer made of white limestone.
This might seem quite annoying, with slabs of white all over the ground, but do not fear! Limestone cannot form inside grass, only soil. This means you won't see a hint of limestone unless you find a cliff or a cave entrance. Also, you can easily find limestone in big lumps in the ocean (because the ocean has no grass in it!). This makes searching for limestone on the surface possible (like clay) while intensive mining possible at the same time (like coal).
2: Marble deposits.
Marble is a form of limestone, so it only appears within a bed of limestone. Now, we can say that the same amount of marble will try to generate as limestone does. However, because only 1/10th the soil is limestone, and there is a chance of 1/10 for marble, marble only occurs 1/100 times. This makes it ten times rarer than limestone.
As a secondary thing, limestone generated next to lava could turn to marble, but that would reqire implications not already found in game. As such, I do not force the idea of lava and limestone relationships.
3: Coal deposits.
Right now, coal is often avoided because it can be found everywhere in game no matter how shallow or deep. In real life, coal only appears in sedimentary layers, unless dislodged by tectonics. As such, coal should only generate in a bed of soil, just like limestone. This makes coal far rarer: you will no longer have frequent encounters with it in your iron mines. This makes prospecting soil far more profitable, and will keep more people closer to the surface when multiplayer is finally fixed.
At the same time, dirt deposits located underground could harbour these 'dislodged' bits of coal, providing emergency sources of heat. If you are worried about lack of coal, do not despair. I'm expecting about 15% of the world's soil to contain coal. This makes strip-mines a somewhat viable option due to the cheapness of spades and speed of digging soil.
The Igneous Layer.
Everything below the sedimentary layer (where smooth stone is right now) is the Intrusive layer. Right now, the world is made up of a generic stone named "Smooth stone". Instead, that rock can be called basalt. Basalt contains iron, but is otherwise just a common rock. As such, it no longer holds diamond, gold or even redstone. THis is designed to make basalt valueless, and makes you search for 'mining sights' - areas of much higher productivity.
There are three new types of rocks in game. All of them contain gold and iron (with the iron content equal to that of the basalt, although they would contain more if it were possible). The difference between them lies in their texture, diamond, redstone and rarity values.
1: Granite
Granite is the most common of all intrusive stone, and generates inside beds of basalt. Granite itself forms in huge ovals which can have a minimum possible diameter ranging from 20-25 blocks, with a max diameter of 50 blocks. Each granite 'deposit' is rare enough for it to take up about 40% of the total basalt in the world. It is also formed first, meaning other deposits will be limited by the granite.
Granite takes on a slightly rosy red hue, with colours ranging from this to this. The texture is vertically aligned and rough. Deposit formation has the potential to make regions almost entirely granite. Granite can only contain gold and iron, but this is an improvement on basalt. Granite blocks turn into cobble upon destruction, unless you use a diamond pick or a chisel. The ideal tool is debatable.
2: Diorite
Diorite is a rarer intrusive rock, and generates inside beds of basalt. Diorite itself forms in large ovals which can have a minimum possible diameter ranging from 10-15 blocks, with a max diameter of 50 blocks. Each diorite 'deposit' is rare enough for it to take up about 10% of the total basalt in the world. This is both because it's deposits are rarer and smaller, and because a majority of basalt is already granite.
Diorite is a grainy grey and white, similar to this.
Diorite allows iron, gold and redstone ore to generate in it. This makes it the only source of redstone. Diorite blocks turn into cobble upon destruction, unless you use a diamond pick or a chisel. The ideal tool is debatable.
3: Gabbro/Kimberlite
Gabbro is a rare intrusive rock, and generates inside beds of basalt. Gabbro itself forms in huge ovals which can have a minimum possible diameter ranging from 20-25 blocks, with a max diameter of 50 blocks. Each gabbro 'deposit' is rare enough for it to take up about 10% of the total basalt in the world. This is because a huge percentage of the world is now granite and diorite, because Gabbro generates last. This makes gabbro fairly rare, and it's ovals can be interrupted by other deposits easily.
Gabbro is a grainy grey and green, similar to this. Ideally the green will not be overpowering.
Gabbro allows iron, gold and diamond ore to generate in it. This makes it the only source of diomonds. Gabbro blocks turn into cobble upon destruction, unless you use a diamond pick or a chisel. The ideal tool is debatable.
Changes to the Current System
This type of geology is designed not to require many changes. Apart from the new textures and block types, there are few new features or methods of generation that need to be added.
1: Iron and gold ore will need to be able to generate inside multiple types of rock. This might not be possible.
2: If people want igneous intrusive rocks to build with, either a new tool (like a chisel) will be needed to avoid turning blocks into cobblestone.
3: Diamond and redstone rarity will need to be lowered. This is so that you have more of these ores appearing, but in the confined spaces of the new deposits.
4: The height method for determining when new ores appear will need to be scrapped. All ores should be able to appear in rock, regardless of height. This may be an exception for diamonds, unless you enjoy the chance for an exposed diamond cliff deposit.
5: Due to more rock deposits being generated (and large amounts of them) we can expect lag to increase slightly, which although is not wanted, can be fixed with performance increases (this is an alpha game after all. Lag is to be expected).
Features with the New System
Here is a short list of the changes this topic is going for:
1: New Limestone block (maybe a reskin of current smoothstone). Used for construction only.
2: New Marble block. Used for construction only.
3: Coal now exists only in dirt. Coal now far rarer, yet accessible to starting players. Pit mining now valuable.
4: No more height related dispersion. Ores will appear wherever they can. Mountain mining now valuable.
5: New Gabbro block. Only used for building. Should complement cobble and mossy cobble.
6: New Granite block. Only used for building. Should allow for more red in the block spectrum.
7: New Diorite block. Only used for building. Should bridge the gap between smooth stone and wool.
8: A chisel feature, too allow mined smooth stone (basalt), Granite, Gabbro and Diorite to be picked up as blocks OR another similar tool to do such a thing.
9: The new blocks provide regional geography, resulting in some areas being diamond, redstone, or iron rich.
10: All the changes combined provide more interesting geography, and give awesome transitions of materials within caves and mines.
Features with the New System
So what do YOU think of this? The best response would be to post flaws/SIMPLE ideas/1 Up's/ect, but voting in the poll is good too. Keeping the post up top will keep it in priority.
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE NEW DEPOSIT GEN IN ACTION Just click me.
Want to show support?
You can like this post here, on get satisfaction, where mojhang employee's may see it. You can also vote in the poll above and you can bump the post with happiness and rainbows! Or more ideas to refine the suggestion.
I approve of this! Mining should not be the boring "gamble" that it is now, where if you just dig for long enough through largely featureless rock (the only features being worthless dirt, falling gravel, and monster or lava-filled caves) you'll eventually find some amount of what you're looking for.
I myself have played and enjoyed Dwarf Fortress, and liked the way different kinds of rocks held different kinds of goodies. I like the idea of looking in different places for different materials.
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Hans Lemurson's Thread of Links:http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/371610-hans-lemursons-thread-of-links/
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
well, I do want more types of stone to build with and I do like being able to mine mountains.
But then whats the point of digging deep, where it's more dangerous then if you can mine all elements near the surface?
3Trip wrote :
> well, I do want more types of stone to build with and I do like being able
> to mine mountains.
> But then whats the point of digging deep, where it's more dangerous then if
> you can mine all elements near the surface?
Because there be caverns deep down!
It's easy to wander down a cave and survey ores then to make a ton of mines to get a feel for the area. Also, if you DO manage to get a gabbro deposit at the surface, coinsider yourself lucky. A lot of the time though, expect to dig deep if you happen to live in an area with no gabbro.
It is possible using the current system to limit deposits to a height. For example, igneous intrusive rocks tend to appear near magma. With that in mind, gabbro, granite and diorite deposits generation can be limited to the lower half of the map (or even lower quarter, because formed deposits can leak over their threshold). With this type of generation, ores will be focused (but not limited)to the lower portion of the map.
This will mean that stone as it is now will basically be the same, except for the lack of coal and addition of limestone in the occasional dirt deposit, while the deep contains a bounty of riches (but lacks coal and limestone).
Also, there is no doubt you will exhaust deposits. If you found a large open air gabbro deposit with diamonds and what-no poking from it, it'll take mear minutes to strip of it's value. Then you'll need to prospect for more by either
A) Searching the overground. (Larger file size, less mining and tool usage, more transport time).
:cool.gif: Searching the underground. (Smaller file size, less transport time, more mining).
So there are good and bad parts of the system. You have early access to rares, but at the cost of having to do more searching, rather than idly mining in front of you.
Hmm...not that I think anybody here knows the ins and outs of how Minecraft is programmed, but since terrain is generated chunk-by-chunk, how would it deal with creating large-scale deposits of the interesting igneous rocks?
Probably the same way it creates a (mostly) continuous surface-geography and multi-chunk cave networks, but I think it's something to think about. But anyways, I do think we need a more varied geology, and have resources associated with different substances.
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Hans Lemurson's Thread of Links:http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/371610-hans-lemursons-thread-of-links/
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
This would add a lot more interest to mining, and a bit of diversity to caves (much needed imo).
Also, maybe a higher chance of monsters spawning on certain types of stone? It wouldn't make much sense, admittedly, but it would mean there are more mobs located near the rarer ores.
Hans Lemurson wrote :
> Hmm...not that I think anybody here knows the ins and outs of how Minecraft
> is programmed, but since terrain is generated chunk-by-chunk, how would it
> deal with creating large-scale deposits of the interesting igneous rocks?
Currently, the generation of deposits can happen between chunks. I don't think it is much of a leap making 100 block dirt deposits go across multiple chunks to making larger deposits form across multiple chunks.
PwnagePorcupine wrote :
> Also, maybe a higher chance of monsters spawning on certain types of stone?
> It wouldn't make much sense, admittedly, but it would mean there are more
> mobs located near the rarer ores.
It doesn't make sense, nor does the monster spawner work that way. Monsters spawn on any available space, regardless of the enviroment. Apparently monsters spawns can be changed on a height basis, but I don't foresee an easy way to spawn per deposit.
I was all prepared to hate this idea- i really was. And then I read it, and you are not simply proposing new rocks for new rocks' sake, but proposing new rocks to aid players in mining and finding resources. That would be worthwhile I think, while allowing players to get new materials to use at a reasonable block-cost (of the total 256 or so that can possibly be in-game). I would personally like to see some function with those materials (maybe an advanced granite-crafting table which can be used to make higher-level tools and statues, or a lime-stone brick, or a formula for concrete using limestone, basalt, and sand/dirt or something), but just having the materials as a marker for larger ore deposits (there's a topic about larger ore deposits - no new 'marker' materials though - that was pretty good) would be fine.
As for chunk-generation, this: <http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=76184> topic holds an awesome-sounding (haven't used it yet) mod that allows you to toy with the terrain generation. Want the entire world to be a desert? Done. Larger biomes? Totally possible. Larger ore deposits? Also done. Floating islands? Probably with enough work, yeah. It looks awesome and shows that the engine is, in fact, quite able to make worlds be more the way we think they should be (or more the way we enjoy them being- I'd take surreal to real any day).
dezuman wrote :
> Apart from a fair amount of typos, very well written! And The idea is
> just... Mind-blowingly good!
Thank you! I fixed up some of the typos, but then I realised that means forsaking the pretty coloured text according to the preview... I suppose It'll get fixed when BBCode is back up, but it's nothing major till then.
Me2005 wrote :
> I was all prepared to hate this idea- i really was. And then I read it, and you are
> not simply proposing new rocks for new rocks' sake, but proposing new rocks to aid
> players in mining and finding resources.
I'm glad I changed your mind! For possible crafts, I can immediately suggest off the top of my head for craftable columns, and a limestone brick wall.
Right now, I have an epic friend, Plusnine, who is making possible textures for various building materials (some of the ones suggested here like granite and marble, some like bronze, carpet and columns). When the relevent materials are all done, I'll repaint a few caverns with the textures and see what they'd look like if the system were to change.
I personally like the idea of there being a place for everything. If you want only a certain resource, like Diamonds for instance, then you should be able to go diamond hunting and not end up with a stack of redstone dust and coal.
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Hans Lemurson's Thread of Links:http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/371610-hans-lemursons-thread-of-links/
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
Someone mentioned there should still be an incentive to going down deeper, and I'm' not too sure about the idea of having all valuable minerals being located on the lower layers. Iron should still be readily accessible, since it's a heavily used resource, and it bridges the gap between stone and diamond (which is a pretty big gap).
Perhaps you can throw in oil deposits in the sedimentary layer.
Mining speed for the new rocks should be different, of course. It would be nice if there were crafting recipes involving the new rocks (all of them make a generic stone tool?).
Perhaps you (or someone else) can create a geology for the Nether, as well, since it's incredibly dull right now.
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Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
Making another flowing resource is not something I'd ever think as simple coding wise. Oil itself has rather limited uses in minecraft, although another furnace option and lantern use is always welcome (don't forget diesel minecarts!).
Because the rocks all become cobblestone, they don't require a load of different crafting recipes for all the different tools. Mining speed is definitely possible. All intrusive rocks (in general) are harder than extrusive rocks (like basalt/smoothstone), and granite is the hardest of those. As such, mining granite gets better results that basalt ore wise, but is harder to mine. Diorite and gabbro are still harder than basalt, be still not as hard as granite, making them more useful (and hence, more valuable) to mine.
If the Granite is about twice as hard to mine with a stone pick, and maybe two thirds harder with a steel pick than cobblestone, it could become an awesome building tool (This requires a chisel or the Diamond pick upgrade though).
As far as craft recipes go, I can only think of various pressure plates and buttons. Even then, I don't think it's worth the bother making all those reskins for the exact same problem. Just like smooth stone currently has little crafting use, I doubt intrusives will have much use either.
I agree that the nether is dull. However, due to the manner of the nether being completely fantasy, there are no grounds for any realistic stone layers. Some sort of ore deposits are needed though, as Iron is currently impossible to get in the nether, resulting in possibly trapping yourself (possible in SMP anyway if you were ransacked).
What does also annoy me in the nether is how soft the blocks are to destroy. A harder 'slate' like object or perhaps even obsidian deposits/veins could be added (did anyone realise someone could steal a block of obby from your portal and run off?).
Here we have a granite intrusion into a cave between the igneous and sedimentary layer. A limestone deposit has been cut in half by erosion, however a small amount of marble is now visible.
After reading this thread by metadigital, and by playing Dwarf fortress, it is easy to see the possibilities minecraft has for it's underground. Unfortunately, many of the idea's in Meta's thread would be too complicated to make or require dramatic changes which in all likelihood will not ever be implemented by Notch.
Emphasis added in bold.
With all respect, it may be diplomatic on your part to Meta to better stress your statement on the unfeasibility of Meta's ideas as an opinion rather than a statement of fact. After all, whether something is likely or not is ultimately for Notch to decide.
I'd be concerned that declaring Meta's ideas (even in part) as overcomplicated and likely unachievable (without Notch actually weighing in on the subject) would simply skew the readers' opinion towards your simpler ideas on the basis of them being characterized as more likely to happen versus that of Meta's, rather than a fair weighing of the differences in game play value. The way you have things worded at present introduces a significant bias into the mind of most readers, and prevents a fair result.
Please do not take offence to this. I believe there is considerable value in your suggestion, I just hope that Meta's idea won't be dumped on as unfeasible simply because a simpler alternative exists.
Some things are not feasible simply because it requires restructuring of stuff already in game. I have seen many suggestions for volcanoes (I've even made one myself), but they hold no ground with how the game already plays. They would require some sort of signature (random coordinate, volcanic area) then they would generate lava. But how would that ever reach the surface? You'd need the lava to periodically explode whenever it can't rise any higher, destroying the stone above it.
The fix for that would be pre made volcanoes, but Notch has stated about the monster villages:
Quote from NotchBlog »
For villages, I need to come up with something clever. It would be great to have small huts with roads and so, but doing that procedurally in streaming terrain is far from trivial, heh.
Any large pre-generated volcano would only be 16x16 in size (the size of a chunk)! The generator can't cope well with adding features to a map.
Another point is about the implementation requirements that Metadegital wants to fufil. Yes, a 256 deep map would be awesome, just like the indev games. HOWEVER, as Notch has stated somewhere in his twitters, the lighting bugs up going down 256 squares.
Fault lines have a similar problem to volcanoes, because as Notch said:
Quote from Notchblog »
It’s either a chaotic wasteland of random blocks, or a sharp border of sudden ice
They would require a continuous reference in perhaps a bitmap that says where to generate a 'fault'. The main issue here is making sure that you don't get horrible "Chunk Glitches" which are prevalent on large SMP maps. Some could say they themselves are crude forms of fault-lines. Making a fault line obvious but not ugly would be the hard part.
Erosion requires general block to block interaction, which Notch still hasn't implemented properly yet. This could also potentially result in all the little streams across the world burrowing down into the ground, resulting in random ditches all over the place. It could be added, but a proper mechanism will need to be thought for it.
There are some things I agree with Metadigital though. That includes that Coal should be in the sedimentary layer. By making it absurdly common, but only found in the soil layer and any soil deposits underground you are making coal into a rare substance. This will add more value for digging through soil, and coal itself can be substituted with logs or lava if one needs it for furnace operations.
Limestone is a big one. Again, it should be found in the soil layer, and it will help with many big monuments. Limestone bricks are possible crafts as Meta has said, and that would be awesome as well for creating buildings.
Things like shale and sandstone are taking the idea too far, but I'm all for more colours and textures. I already use sand in my European housing, and more variety for the greyscale colours would be awesome. Notch just seems to have something against making a ton of useless blocks (I.e, he refuses to make more than two stair types (wood and cobble), and he removed all the wool blocks with the intention of making the one wool block id harbour all the colour changes to it.
TL;DR
That is my reasoning for stating complications with Meta's idea. It's okay to dream up ideas, but one step at a time.
A larger world needs Notch to further optimise the game, and adding fault lines and erosion require balancing to properly add to the game. Volcanism requires more growth features in game, or pre-generation capabilities. Flowing sand sounds quiet useless, and the only foreseeable good point about it would being the ability to make sloping roofs.
I am mearily offering a simple, effective generation idea that can be hooked up easily in game with only 3 new needed blocks, and 2 extra cosmetic blocks. These will help regions gain their own variation, with some regions being more valuable than others, which will influence player decisions on where to settle.
This might seem quite annoying, with slabs of white all over the ground, but do not fear! Limestone cannot form inside grass, only soil. This means you won't see a hint of limestone unless you find a cliff or a cave entrance. Also, you can easily find limestone in big lumps in the ocean (because the ocean has no grass in it!). This makes searching for limestone on the surface possible (like clay) while intensive mining possible at the same time (like coal).
From what I understand, grass is currently applied last when generating new terrain and is partly based on calculated exposure to light. If I'm correct, then the idea of limiting limestone distribution based on presence of grass won't work because grass will always be generated after limestone. You'll have to suggest some other means to avoid obtrusive limestone deposit, or suggest that the current code for grass be changed.
Also, for purpose of comparing the amount of changes between Feather and Meta's ideas (as of 11/30/10, not intended to be all encompassing).
Feather's gross new/changed basic blocks:
Limestone
Basalt (ex-Smooth Stone)
Marble
Gabbro
Granite
Diorite
Gold (Potentially eliminated)
Iron (Potentially eliminated)
Redstone (Potentially eliminated)
Diamond (Potentially eliminated, or replaced with Diamond-Gabbro)
Feather's net new basic block count: 5 best case, but 10+ worst case (Feather's changes to resource generation method)
Feather's net changed basic block count: 5 (4 Potentially eliminated rather than changed)
Feather's changes to resource generation method:
Existing metal (counting redstone as metal in this paragraph for the purpose of simplicity) resource no longer have their own blocks, but instead appear within other types of blocks. Depending on the limitations of Minecraft coding, this would either mean that the metals can be generated procedurally as metal with the background of the appropriate surrounding rock (for example, spots of gold on whatever rock is appropriate), or, new blocks will have to be added for each combination of metal and appropriate background rock type (i.e. Gold-Gabbro, Iron-Gabbro, Diamond Gabbro, Gold-Diorite, Iron-Diorite, Redstone-Diorite, and so forth).
Meta's net new basic block count: 4 (Note: Only basic blocks are counted here, Meta's suggested several more refined block types than Feather)
Meta's net changed basic block count: 2
Meta's changes to resource generation method:
As far as I can tell, the iron/gold/diamond/redstone will retain their existing block configuration but moved to appropriate layers/veins. So no new blocks or changed blocks as far as they're concerned.
And volcanoes, I don't think Meta has fully outlined what he has in mind, so it may be premature to suggest that his ideas are too much (though they may be, who's to say at this point). Ignoring Meta's embryonic notions about volcanoes (and I can't even find anything he says about flowing sand, is that his idea or someone else in his thread?), I think Feather has potentially posed an alternative idea to that of Meta's with comparable (if not greater) level of complexity and work involved, rather than something that is overall simpler, particularly owing to the big IFs regarding mineral generation. If may be better just to spawn existing metal and crystal blocks in the appropriate layers and veins, rather than change the way they work as blocks.
I'm just dropping in to say I love this idea. I'm a big supporter of changing how mining works to make it more like a hunt than a crapshoot. And, while the other thread was ambitious, I agree that many of the suggestions made in it were too much. Yours seems like a much simpler, more elegant solution.
After reading this thread by metadigital, and by playing Dwarf fortress, it is easy to see the possibilities minecraft has for it's underground. Unfortunately, many of the idea's in Meta's thread would be too complicated to make or require dramatic changes which in all likelihood will not ever be implemented by Notch.
Because of this, I'm going to present ideas which can easily (in theory) be added into the current game.
Ok, so here are the ideas:
As of now, Minecraft contains a sedimentary layer ranging from 5-0 thick, with a layer of grass on topmost of the sedimentary layer. This layer persists over all terrain, over mountain and undersea. There are three ideas for this layer:
1: Limestone deposits.
Simple: Using the current deposit generation, Limestone can be classed as a deposit which forms in a bed of dirt. Essentially, where there is dirt, limestone deposits can form. The deposits themselves should be fairly common, at around about one tenth the whole dirt layer made of white limestone.
This might seem quite annoying, with slabs of white all over the ground, but do not fear! Limestone cannot form inside grass, only soil. This means you won't see a hint of limestone unless you find a cliff or a cave entrance. Also, you can easily find limestone in big lumps in the ocean (because the ocean has no grass in it!). This makes searching for limestone on the surface possible (like clay) while intensive mining possible at the same time (like coal).
2: Marble deposits.
Marble is a form of limestone, so it only appears within a bed of limestone. Now, we can say that the same amount of marble will try to generate as limestone does. However, because only 1/10th the soil is limestone, and there is a chance of 1/10 for marble, marble only occurs 1/100 times. This makes it ten times rarer than limestone.
As a secondary thing, limestone generated next to lava could turn to marble, but that would reqire implications not already found in game. As such, I do not force the idea of lava and limestone relationships.
3: Coal deposits.
Right now, coal is often avoided because it can be found everywhere in game no matter how shallow or deep. In real life, coal only appears in sedimentary layers, unless dislodged by tectonics. As such, coal should only generate in a bed of soil, just like limestone. This makes coal far rarer: you will no longer have frequent encounters with it in your iron mines. This makes prospecting soil far more profitable, and will keep more people closer to the surface when multiplayer is finally fixed.
At the same time, dirt deposits located underground could harbour these 'dislodged' bits of coal, providing emergency sources of heat. If you are worried about lack of coal, do not despair. I'm expecting about 15% of the world's soil to contain coal. This makes strip-mines a somewhat viable option due to the cheapness of spades and speed of digging soil.
Everything below the sedimentary layer (where smooth stone is right now) is the Intrusive layer. Right now, the world is made up of a generic stone named "Smooth stone". Instead, that rock can be called basalt. Basalt contains iron, but is otherwise just a common rock. As such, it no longer holds diamond, gold or even redstone. THis is designed to make basalt valueless, and makes you search for 'mining sights' - areas of much higher productivity.
There are three new types of rocks in game. All of them contain gold and iron (with the iron content equal to that of the basalt, although they would contain more if it were possible). The difference between them lies in their texture, diamond, redstone and rarity values.
1: Granite
Granite is the most common of all intrusive stone, and generates inside beds of basalt. Granite itself forms in huge ovals which can have a minimum possible diameter ranging from 20-25 blocks, with a max diameter of 50 blocks. Each granite 'deposit' is rare enough for it to take up about 40% of the total basalt in the world. It is also formed first, meaning other deposits will be limited by the granite.
Granite takes on a slightly rosy red hue, with colours ranging from this to this. The texture is vertically aligned and rough. Deposit formation has the potential to make regions almost entirely granite. Granite can only contain gold and iron, but this is an improvement on basalt. Granite blocks turn into cobble upon destruction, unless you use a diamond pick or a chisel. The ideal tool is debatable.
2: Diorite
Diorite is a rarer intrusive rock, and generates inside beds of basalt. Diorite itself forms in large ovals which can have a minimum possible diameter ranging from 10-15 blocks, with a max diameter of 50 blocks. Each diorite 'deposit' is rare enough for it to take up about 10% of the total basalt in the world. This is both because it's deposits are rarer and smaller, and because a majority of basalt is already granite.
Diorite is a grainy grey and white, similar to this.
Diorite allows iron, gold and redstone ore to generate in it. This makes it the only source of redstone. Diorite blocks turn into cobble upon destruction, unless you use a diamond pick or a chisel. The ideal tool is debatable.
3: Gabbro/Kimberlite
Gabbro is a rare intrusive rock, and generates inside beds of basalt. Gabbro itself forms in huge ovals which can have a minimum possible diameter ranging from 20-25 blocks, with a max diameter of 50 blocks. Each gabbro 'deposit' is rare enough for it to take up about 10% of the total basalt in the world. This is because a huge percentage of the world is now granite and diorite, because Gabbro generates last. This makes gabbro fairly rare, and it's ovals can be interrupted by other deposits easily.
Gabbro is a grainy grey and green, similar to this. Ideally the green will not be overpowering.
Gabbro allows iron, gold and diamond ore to generate in it. This makes it the only source of diomonds. Gabbro blocks turn into cobble upon destruction, unless you use a diamond pick or a chisel. The ideal tool is debatable.
This type of geology is designed not to require many changes. Apart from the new textures and block types, there are few new features or methods of generation that need to be added.
1: Iron and gold ore will need to be able to generate inside multiple types of rock. This might not be possible.
2: If people want igneous intrusive rocks to build with, either a new tool (like a chisel) will be needed to avoid turning blocks into cobblestone.
3: Diamond and redstone rarity will need to be lowered. This is so that you have more of these ores appearing, but in the confined spaces of the new deposits.
4: The height method for determining when new ores appear will need to be scrapped. All ores should be able to appear in rock, regardless of height. This may be an exception for diamonds, unless you enjoy the chance for an exposed diamond cliff deposit.
5: Due to more rock deposits being generated (and large amounts of them) we can expect lag to increase slightly, which although is not wanted, can be fixed with performance increases (this is an alpha game after all. Lag is to be expected).
Here is a short list of the changes this topic is going for:
1: New Limestone block (maybe a reskin of current smoothstone). Used for construction only.
2: New Marble block. Used for construction only.
3: Coal now exists only in dirt. Coal now far rarer, yet accessible to starting players. Pit mining now valuable.
4: No more height related dispersion. Ores will appear wherever they can. Mountain mining now valuable.
5: New Gabbro block. Only used for building. Should complement cobble and mossy cobble.
6: New Granite block. Only used for building. Should allow for more red in the block spectrum.
7: New Diorite block. Only used for building. Should bridge the gap between smooth stone and wool.
8: A chisel feature, too allow mined smooth stone (basalt), Granite, Gabbro and Diorite to be picked up as blocks OR another similar tool to do such a thing.
9: The new blocks provide regional geography, resulting in some areas being diamond, redstone, or iron rich.
10: All the changes combined provide more interesting geography, and give awesome transitions of materials within caves and mines.
So what do YOU think of this? The best response would be to post flaws/SIMPLE ideas/1 Up's/ect, but voting in the poll is good too. Keeping the post up top will keep it in priority.
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE NEW DEPOSIT GEN IN ACTION
Just click me.
You can like this post here, on get satisfaction, where mojhang employee's may see it. You can also vote in the poll above and you can bump the post with happiness and rainbows! Or more ideas to refine the suggestion.
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
I myself have played and enjoyed Dwarf Fortress, and liked the way different kinds of rocks held different kinds of goodies. I like the idea of looking in different places for different materials.
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
edit: sorry for that, I hadn't clicked the link at the top
> you might want to look at this:
> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66801&hilit=geology
Uhhh, thank you for posting the exact same link as the one on the top of the topic. That was very thoughtful of you.
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
But then whats the point of digging deep, where it's more dangerous then if you can mine all elements near the surface?
> well, I do want more types of stone to build with and I do like being able
> to mine mountains.
> But then whats the point of digging deep, where it's more dangerous then if
> you can mine all elements near the surface?
Because there be caverns deep down!
It's easy to wander down a cave and survey ores then to make a ton of mines to get a feel for the area. Also, if you DO manage to get a gabbro deposit at the surface, coinsider yourself lucky. A lot of the time though, expect to dig deep if you happen to live in an area with no gabbro.
It is possible using the current system to limit deposits to a height. For example, igneous intrusive rocks tend to appear near magma. With that in mind, gabbro, granite and diorite deposits generation can be limited to the lower half of the map (or even lower quarter, because formed deposits can leak over their threshold). With this type of generation, ores will be focused (but not limited)to the lower portion of the map.
This will mean that stone as it is now will basically be the same, except for the lack of coal and addition of limestone in the occasional dirt deposit, while the deep contains a bounty of riches (but lacks coal and limestone).
Also, there is no doubt you will exhaust deposits. If you found a large open air gabbro deposit with diamonds and what-no poking from it, it'll take mear minutes to strip of it's value. Then you'll need to prospect for more by either
A) Searching the overground. (Larger file size, less mining and tool usage, more transport time).
:cool.gif: Searching the underground. (Smaller file size, less transport time, more mining).
So there are good and bad parts of the system. You have early access to rares, but at the cost of having to do more searching, rather than idly mining in front of you.
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
Probably the same way it creates a (mostly) continuous surface-geography and multi-chunk cave networks, but I think it's something to think about. But anyways, I do think we need a more varied geology, and have resources associated with different substances.
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
This would add a lot more interest to mining, and a bit of diversity to caves (much needed imo).
Also, maybe a higher chance of monsters spawning on certain types of stone? It wouldn't make much sense, admittedly, but it would mean there are more mobs located near the rarer ores.
> Hmm...not that I think anybody here knows the ins and outs of how Minecraft
> is programmed, but since terrain is generated chunk-by-chunk, how would it
> deal with creating large-scale deposits of the interesting igneous rocks?
Currently, the generation of deposits can happen between chunks. I don't think it is much of a leap making 100 block dirt deposits go across multiple chunks to making larger deposits form across multiple chunks.
PwnagePorcupine wrote :
> Also, maybe a higher chance of monsters spawning on certain types of stone?
> It wouldn't make much sense, admittedly, but it would mean there are more
> mobs located near the rarer ores.
It doesn't make sense, nor does the monster spawner work that way. Monsters spawn on any available space, regardless of the enviroment. Apparently monsters spawns can be changed on a height basis, but I don't foresee an easy way to spawn per deposit.
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
As for chunk-generation, this: <http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=76184> topic holds an awesome-sounding (haven't used it yet) mod that allows you to toy with the terrain generation. Want the entire world to be a desert? Done. Larger biomes? Totally possible. Larger ore deposits? Also done. Floating islands? Probably with enough work, yeah. It looks awesome and shows that the engine is, in fact, quite able to make worlds be more the way we think they should be (or more the way we enjoy them being- I'd take surreal to real any day).
See the post for a Texture pack tutorial!
> Apart from a fair amount of typos, very well written! And The idea is
> just... Mind-blowingly good!
Thank you! I fixed up some of the typos, but then I realised that means forsaking the pretty coloured text according to the preview... I suppose It'll get fixed when BBCode is back up, but it's nothing major till then.
Me2005 wrote :
> I was all prepared to hate this idea- i really was. And then I read it, and you are
> not simply proposing new rocks for new rocks' sake, but proposing new rocks to aid
> players in mining and finding resources.
I'm glad I changed your mind! For possible crafts, I can immediately suggest off the top of my head for craftable columns, and a limestone brick wall.
Right now, I have an epic friend, Plusnine, who is making possible textures for various building materials (some of the ones suggested here like granite and marble, some like bronze, carpet and columns). When the relevent materials are all done, I'll repaint a few caverns with the textures and see what they'd look like if the system were to change.
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
Perhaps you can throw in oil deposits in the sedimentary layer.
Mining speed for the new rocks should be different, of course. It would be nice if there were crafting recipes involving the new rocks (all of them make a generic stone tool?).
Perhaps you (or someone else) can create a geology for the Nether, as well, since it's incredibly dull right now.
Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
Because the rocks all become cobblestone, they don't require a load of different crafting recipes for all the different tools. Mining speed is definitely possible. All intrusive rocks (in general) are harder than extrusive rocks (like basalt/smoothstone), and granite is the hardest of those. As such, mining granite gets better results that basalt ore wise, but is harder to mine. Diorite and gabbro are still harder than basalt, be still not as hard as granite, making them more useful (and hence, more valuable) to mine.
If the Granite is about twice as hard to mine with a stone pick, and maybe two thirds harder with a steel pick than cobblestone, it could become an awesome building tool (This requires a chisel or the Diamond pick upgrade though).
As far as craft recipes go, I can only think of various pressure plates and buttons. Even then, I don't think it's worth the bother making all those reskins for the exact same problem. Just like smooth stone currently has little crafting use, I doubt intrusives will have much use either.
I agree that the nether is dull. However, due to the manner of the nether being completely fantasy, there are no grounds for any realistic stone layers. Some sort of ore deposits are needed though, as Iron is currently impossible to get in the nether, resulting in possibly trapping yourself (possible in SMP anyway if you were ransacked).
What does also annoy me in the nether is how soft the blocks are to destroy. A harder 'slate' like object or perhaps even obsidian deposits/veins could be added (did anyone realise someone could steal a block of obby from your portal and run off?).
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
Here we have a granite intrusion into a cave between the igneous and sedimentary layer. A limestone deposit has been cut in half by erosion, however a small amount of marble is now visible.
Images courtesy of Plusnine.
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
Emphasis added in bold.
With all respect, it may be diplomatic on your part to Meta to better stress your statement on the unfeasibility of Meta's ideas as an opinion rather than a statement of fact. After all, whether something is likely or not is ultimately for Notch to decide.
I'd be concerned that declaring Meta's ideas (even in part) as overcomplicated and likely unachievable (without Notch actually weighing in on the subject) would simply skew the readers' opinion towards your simpler ideas on the basis of them being characterized as more likely to happen versus that of Meta's, rather than a fair weighing of the differences in game play value. The way you have things worded at present introduces a significant bias into the mind of most readers, and prevents a fair result.
Please do not take offence to this. I believe there is considerable value in your suggestion, I just hope that Meta's idea won't be dumped on as unfeasible simply because a simpler alternative exists.
The fix for that would be pre made volcanoes, but Notch has stated about the monster villages:
Any large pre-generated volcano would only be 16x16 in size (the size of a chunk)! The generator can't cope well with adding features to a map.
Another point is about the implementation requirements that Metadegital wants to fufil. Yes, a 256 deep map would be awesome, just like the indev games. HOWEVER, as Notch has stated somewhere in his twitters, the lighting bugs up going down 256 squares.
Fault lines have a similar problem to volcanoes, because as Notch said:
They would require a continuous reference in perhaps a bitmap that says where to generate a 'fault'. The main issue here is making sure that you don't get horrible "Chunk Glitches" which are prevalent on large SMP maps. Some could say they themselves are crude forms of fault-lines. Making a fault line obvious but not ugly would be the hard part.
Erosion requires general block to block interaction, which Notch still hasn't implemented properly yet. This could also potentially result in all the little streams across the world burrowing down into the ground, resulting in random ditches all over the place. It could be added, but a proper mechanism will need to be thought for it.
There are some things I agree with Metadigital though. That includes that Coal should be in the sedimentary layer. By making it absurdly common, but only found in the soil layer and any soil deposits underground you are making coal into a rare substance. This will add more value for digging through soil, and coal itself can be substituted with logs or lava if one needs it for furnace operations.
Limestone is a big one. Again, it should be found in the soil layer, and it will help with many big monuments. Limestone bricks are possible crafts as Meta has said, and that would be awesome as well for creating buildings.
Things like shale and sandstone are taking the idea too far, but I'm all for more colours and textures. I already use sand in my European housing, and more variety for the greyscale colours would be awesome. Notch just seems to have something against making a ton of useless blocks (I.e, he refuses to make more than two stair types (wood and cobble), and he removed all the wool blocks with the intention of making the one wool block id harbour all the colour changes to it.
That is my reasoning for stating complications with Meta's idea. It's okay to dream up ideas, but one step at a time.
A larger world needs Notch to further optimise the game, and adding fault lines and erosion require balancing to properly add to the game. Volcanism requires more growth features in game, or pre-generation capabilities. Flowing sand sounds quiet useless, and the only foreseeable good point about it would being the ability to make sloping roofs.
I am mearily offering a simple, effective generation idea that can be hooked up easily in game with only 3 new needed blocks, and 2 extra cosmetic blocks. These will help regions gain their own variation, with some regions being more valuable than others, which will influence player decisions on where to settle.
Thank you for reading.
A simple suggestion on geology here.
~~~
Slaves of the Coal Mine
An interesting Novel to pass the time.
From what I understand, grass is currently applied last when generating new terrain and is partly based on calculated exposure to light. If I'm correct, then the idea of limiting limestone distribution based on presence of grass won't work because grass will always be generated after limestone. You'll have to suggest some other means to avoid obtrusive limestone deposit, or suggest that the current code for grass be changed.
Also, for purpose of comparing the amount of changes between Feather and Meta's ideas (as of 11/30/10, not intended to be all encompassing).
Feather's gross new/changed basic blocks:
Limestone
Basalt (ex-Smooth Stone)
Marble
Gabbro
Granite
Diorite
Gold (Potentially eliminated)
Iron (Potentially eliminated)
Redstone (Potentially eliminated)
Diamond (Potentially eliminated, or replaced with Diamond-Gabbro)
Feather's net new basic block count:
5 best case, but 10+ worst case (Feather's changes to resource generation method)
Feather's net changed basic block count:
5 (4 Potentially eliminated rather than changed)
Feather's changes to resource generation method:
Existing metal (counting redstone as metal in this paragraph for the purpose of simplicity) resource no longer have their own blocks, but instead appear within other types of blocks. Depending on the limitations of Minecraft coding, this would either mean that the metals can be generated procedurally as metal with the background of the appropriate surrounding rock (for example, spots of gold on whatever rock is appropriate), or, new blocks will have to be added for each combination of metal and appropriate background rock type (i.e. Gold-Gabbro, Iron-Gabbro, Diamond Gabbro, Gold-Diorite, Iron-Diorite, Redstone-Diorite, and so forth).
Meta's gross new/changed basic blocks:
Limestone
Marble
Granite (ex-Smooth Stone)
Sandstone (ex-Gravel)
Shale
Basalt
Meta's net new basic block count:
4 (Note: Only basic blocks are counted here, Meta's suggested several more refined block types than Feather)
Meta's net changed basic block count:
2
Meta's changes to resource generation method:
As far as I can tell, the iron/gold/diamond/redstone will retain their existing block configuration but moved to appropriate layers/veins. So no new blocks or changed blocks as far as they're concerned.
And volcanoes, I don't think Meta has fully outlined what he has in mind, so it may be premature to suggest that his ideas are too much (though they may be, who's to say at this point). Ignoring Meta's embryonic notions about volcanoes (and I can't even find anything he says about flowing sand, is that his idea or someone else in his thread?), I think Feather has potentially posed an alternative idea to that of Meta's with comparable (if not greater) level of complexity and work involved, rather than something that is overall simpler, particularly owing to the big IFs regarding mineral generation. If may be better just to spawn existing metal and crystal blocks in the appropriate layers and veins, rather than change the way they work as blocks.
Just my 2 cents.