What if the Minecraft world wasn't infinite? I understand that Alpha maps can be "larger than 8 x the surface of the world" or something like that, but really, Minecraft maps generate indefinitely and are limited by technology (that is, they don't ever stop until your CPU crashes). The question is, though, do we really need "infinite" maps?
From what I understand, Minecraft runs into severe technological problems long before you ever reach the "limit" for map size. From a related topic: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=47258
Quote from Erzengel »
It doesn't lag. It suffers from floating point imprecision, which makes your view jerk around. You're still moving at normal speed, its just that your camera will only change position once you've moved far enough. It's easy enough to find out for yourself: Open NBTEdit, find Player->Pos, and set either the first or third value in Pos to an insanely large number. Even 5,000,000 (5,000 km, significantly shorter than even 1 earth) is enough to see this effect.
So, why not just stop the world from continuing the generate chunks beyond, say, 500km from your spawn point in all directions? A rather humble number in comparison, and yet the map size would still be grotesquely HUGE.
What happens when you reach the edge of the map? It loops! This way, you never reach an invisible wall like in Classic. And when you have a 2D plane that loops infinitely (think arcade game ASTEROIDS), the 3D shape it forms is called a "toroid".
Long story short, I WANT MINECRAFT TO LOOK LIKE A DOUGHNUT.
I really don't see any potential problems with this... You'd have 1000000 square km of exploring space (that's 1,000,000,000,000 blocks of surface area, or 3,906,250,000 chunks), and for the hyper-obsessive-compulsive people out there, you could work for the satisfaction of getting a complete map.
The only problem I see with all these limiting map ideas is this: if you're making maps huge enough that you'll barely miss infinite generation, then what's the point of making them finite anyways? Perhaps there's no drawback to this, but there's no benefit to it either.
there would have to be a gravity swicth in the center. what do you do about that?
No, there would not. This works, and has been done before. The actual suggestion is looping sides, he's just saying in addition, THAT IS THE SHAPE IT FORMS.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Passive minecrafter FTW.
Hamumu.com, the site I should thank for helping me find minecraft.
Now, one problem you come across when trying to pose Minecraft as a planet is, what's the deal with the Sun and the Moon? I have no answer to that. How does the sun orbit a doughnut planet? I guess for a toroidial planet, you could even have some kind of crazy-shaped sun. Or maybe the sun goes in the middle of the hole, and the whole planet twists through itself, creating a day-night cycle.
Quote from Blue_vision »
The only problem I see with all these limiting map ideas is this: if you're making maps huge enough that you'll barely miss infinite generation, then what's the point of making them finite anyways? Perhaps there's no drawback to this, but there's no benefit to it either.
Well, in my ideal world, the finite game mode would be a permanent, non-adjustable game feature. If it wasn't big enough, the people who prefer infinite map sizes would be pissed. So, the logical middle-ground is to make the maps reasonably finite, but still enormous that a few hours of exploring reveals only a fraction of the map. Discovering the whole world should be a rather amazing feat.
I have a map that is about 1 square km. It has a size of about 5 MB according to the in-game details. Correct me if you like, but it seems to be a reasonable approximation that 1 sq km ~ 5MB. The infamous Minecraft Interstate was about 53MB. In any case... perhaps 1000000 sq km as I said in my first post was a bit excessive. 1000 sq km would be plenty big, and the file size could be as big as 5GB, which is not TOO over-the-top. The question is, who out there has the biggest map file? Let's set the world size equal to the world owned by the most ambitious explorer out there.
Quote from Megadog »
[...] This works, and has been done before. The actual suggestion is looping sides, he's just saying in addition, THAT IS THE SHAPE IT FORMS.
Haha, yeah. The toroid shape is just sort of an afterthought, so to speak. The only observable effect to gameplay would be looping sides--unless you wanted to get into some kind of crazy sun/moon cycle, as I mentioned above.
The only problem I see with all these limiting map ideas is this: if you're making maps huge enough that you'll barely miss infinite generation, then what's the point of making them finite anyways? Perhaps there's no drawback to this, but there's no benefit to it either.
Well, in my ideal world, the finite game mode would be a permanent, non-adjustable game feature. If it wasn't big enough, the people who prefer infinite map sizes would be pissed. So, the logical middle-ground is to make the maps reasonably finite, but still enormous that a few hours of exploring reveals only a fraction of the map. Discovering the whole world should be a rather amazing feat.
I have a map that is about 1 square km. It has a size of about 5 MB according to the in-game details. Correct me if you like, but it seems to be a reasonable approximation that 1 sq km ~ 5MB. The infamous Minecraft Interstate was about 53MB. In any case... perhaps 1000000 sq km as I said in my first post was a bit excessive. 1000 sq km would be plenty big, and the file size could be as big as 5GB, which is not TOO over-the-top. The question is, who out there has the biggest map file? Let's set the world size equal to the world owned by the most ambitious explorer out there.
Which kind of misses the entire point of what I said. If the world's going to be so big that it's only circumnavigable by the most ambitious explorer in all of minecraft (in order to not mess with the big worlds of others,) what's the point of even capping it in the first place? If the greatest minecraft developments could only hold a fraction of the maximum generated world, what's the point of putting any effort into capping it?
Which kind of misses the entire point of what I said. If the world's going to be so big that it's only circumnavigable by the most ambitious explorer in all of minecraft (in order to not mess with the big worlds of others,) what's the point of even capping it in the first place? If the greatest minecraft developments could only hold a fraction of the maximum generated world, what's the point of putting any effort into capping it?
There are several advantages I mentioned.
Most importantly, it prevents the possibility of encountering massive-game-file bugs.
I'm taking into account that people will continue to become more and more ambitious in their exploration as time goes on. Once people learn that the world is finite, they will search for the edge. My point is that our definition of "the most ambitious Minecraft explorer" will change dramatically.
In any case, you're getting caught up on something meaningless. That figure you're complaining about is something I pulled directly out of my ass. Just pulled it right out. POP. The important thing about my idea is that the map loops, not that the map is exactly "X" big. If we got some motion behind the finite, looping map idea, then we can figure out how big it needs to be.
Besides, I don't think there is that much "effort" required for capping the size of the world. Just insert a bit of code that says when player position exceeds x=500000, it equals x=-500000, and vice versa. It's not a complicated piece of code. Maybe that's not how Minecraft works, but hell, if they could do it in the 80's, could it really be that hard to implement?
My only beef would be with the current world-generation system - if you've seen any of the pictures of the output, it looks like blue and green static. Maybe some white or tan in there. I'd like to see a much more interesting map, oceans, mountains (with snow), volcanoes (lava on the surface), islands, and continents. Maybe even 'mystical' realms like floating islands (over a surface of water or land- and both pleasant and 'netherish' types), craigs to the center of the earth... I've got little idea of how that would all be implemented, I just think it'd be much cooler.
One interesting thing to note about a toroidial map:
The Nether would presumably be the central "core" of the toroid. This would be a great explanation of why the Nether has a 1:8 distance ratio with the surface! Think about it--the portals take you straight down to the Nether. Consider a flat, circular cross-section of the toroid. Since you are closer to the center in the Nether, you are actually moving around the center at a faster rate--it's simple kinematics: For a rotational system, angular velocity is inversely proportional to the radial distance for constant tangential velocity.
I need a diagram.
Quote from Me2005 »
+1 to this idea.
My only beef would be with the current world-generation system - if you've seen any of the pictures of the output, it looks like blue and green static. Maybe some white or tan in there. I'd like to see a much more interesting map, oceans, mountains (with snow), volcanoes (lava on the surface), islands, and continents. Maybe even 'mystical' realms like floating islands (over a surface of water or land- and both pleasant and 'netherish' types), craigs to the center of the earth... I've got little idea of how that would all be implemented, I just think it'd be much cooler.
Thanks!
I have seen Cartograph-generated images of my minecraft levels. Even with biomes, the world sort of has a noticeable pattern to it at large scales. I think increasing the size of biomes would help, but that is a whole other topic. (people can do this, actually, but it requires code manipulation)
Speaking of 'mystical' realms, I know one guy had an idea of adding the "Ether" (the counterpart to the Nether, accessed through a special portal) which would be composed of floating islands. Search it!
This would be awesome!!
Just have a massive hole to nowhere in the middle...
I approve a bit lulz
Get in there asap and lets cause some major pwnage and destruction.
The only fallback is the thickness wont be the same as the original so you won't be able to dig as far down, but it gives people the oppurtunity to ellaborate on there imagination.
One thing you should provide is an option to download this map seperately :}
Don't necro. Don't double post.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.
This would be awesome!!
Just have a massive hole to nowhere in the middle...
I approve a bit lulz
Get in there asap and lets cause some major pwnage and destruction.
The only fallback is the thickness wont be the same as the original so you won't be able to dig as far down, but it gives people the oppurtunity to ellaborate on there imagination.
One thing you should provide is an option to download this map seperately :}
Don't necro. Don't double post.
It's not necroposting if this is the only topic about toroidal maps and he's never posted here before. And as a matter of fact, it IS the only topic about toroidal maps, and he HASN'T posted here before. Quit berating other users and just be glad he's probably using the search feature or something.
Anyway...
JackLulz, I think you completely misunderstood my idea to begin with. You seem to think I'm talking about a big map with a hole in the middle, which really isn't what I'm suggesting at all. I think a previous user summed it up pretty well. I'm not suggesting any changes to game mechanics or world generation other than the map looping after some set amount of distance--say, x=5000. For 2D planes that form loops in both the x and y directions, the 3D shape that it forms is a toroid. The hole in the middle is not really apparent, mostly because the planet is so huge.
What if the Minecraft world wasn't infinite? I understand that Alpha maps can be "larger than 8 x the surface of the world" or something like that, but really, Minecraft maps generate indefinitely and are limited by technology (that is, they don't ever stop until your CPU crashes). The question is, though, do we really need "infinite" maps?
From what I understand, Minecraft runs into severe technological problems long before you ever reach the "limit" for map size. From a related topic:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=47258
So, why not just stop the world from continuing the generate chunks beyond, say, 500km from your spawn point in all directions? A rather humble number in comparison, and yet the map size would still be grotesquely HUGE.
What happens when you reach the edge of the map? It loops! This way, you never reach an invisible wall like in Classic. And when you have a 2D plane that loops infinitely (think arcade game ASTEROIDS), the 3D shape it forms is called a "toroid".
Long story short, I WANT MINECRAFT TO LOOK LIKE A DOUGHNUT.
I really don't see any potential problems with this... You'd have 1000000 square km of exploring space (that's 1,000,000,000,000 blocks of surface area, or 3,906,250,000 chunks), and for the hyper-obsessive-compulsive people out there, you could work for the satisfaction of getting a complete map.
ThanatosMace
DOUGHNUT!
No, there would not. This works, and has been done before. The actual suggestion is looping sides, he's just saying in addition, THAT IS THE SHAPE IT FORMS.
Hamumu.com, the site I should thank for helping me find minecraft.
The sky.
Now, one problem you come across when trying to pose Minecraft as a planet is, what's the deal with the Sun and the Moon? I have no answer to that. How does the sun orbit a doughnut planet? I guess for a toroidial planet, you could even have some kind of crazy-shaped sun. Or maybe the sun goes in the middle of the hole, and the whole planet twists through itself, creating a day-night cycle.
Well, in my ideal world, the finite game mode would be a permanent, non-adjustable game feature. If it wasn't big enough, the people who prefer infinite map sizes would be pissed. So, the logical middle-ground is to make the maps reasonably finite, but still enormous that a few hours of exploring reveals only a fraction of the map. Discovering the whole world should be a rather amazing feat.
I have a map that is about 1 square km. It has a size of about 5 MB according to the in-game details. Correct me if you like, but it seems to be a reasonable approximation that 1 sq km ~ 5MB. The infamous Minecraft Interstate was about 53MB. In any case... perhaps 1000000 sq km as I said in my first post was a bit excessive. 1000 sq km would be plenty big, and the file size could be as big as 5GB, which is not TOO over-the-top. The question is, who out there has the biggest map file? Let's set the world size equal to the world owned by the most ambitious explorer out there.
Haha, yeah. The toroid shape is just sort of an afterthought, so to speak. The only observable effect to gameplay would be looping sides--unless you wanted to get into some kind of crazy sun/moon cycle, as I mentioned above.
ThanatosMace
There are several advantages I mentioned.
Most importantly, it prevents the possibility of encountering massive-game-file bugs.
I'm taking into account that people will continue to become more and more ambitious in their exploration as time goes on. Once people learn that the world is finite, they will search for the edge. My point is that our definition of "the most ambitious Minecraft explorer" will change dramatically.
In any case, you're getting caught up on something meaningless. That figure you're complaining about is something I pulled directly out of my ass. Just pulled it right out. POP. The important thing about my idea is that the map loops, not that the map is exactly "X" big. If we got some motion behind the finite, looping map idea, then we can figure out how big it needs to be.
Besides, I don't think there is that much "effort" required for capping the size of the world. Just insert a bit of code that says when player position exceeds x=500000, it equals x=-500000, and vice versa. It's not a complicated piece of code. Maybe that's not how Minecraft works, but hell, if they could do it in the 80's, could it really be that hard to implement?
ThanatosMace
Sounds kinda boring.
Wynaut(lol) let it continue? I bet no one really has a problemo with that.
My only beef would be with the current world-generation system - if you've seen any of the pictures of the output, it looks like blue and green static. Maybe some white or tan in there. I'd like to see a much more interesting map, oceans, mountains (with snow), volcanoes (lava on the surface), islands, and continents. Maybe even 'mystical' realms like floating islands (over a surface of water or land- and both pleasant and 'netherish' types), craigs to the center of the earth... I've got little idea of how that would all be implemented, I just think it'd be much cooler.
See the post for a Texture pack tutorial!
The Nether would presumably be the central "core" of the toroid. This would be a great explanation of why the Nether has a 1:8 distance ratio with the surface! Think about it--the portals take you straight down to the Nether. Consider a flat, circular cross-section of the toroid. Since you are closer to the center in the Nether, you are actually moving around the center at a faster rate--it's simple kinematics: For a rotational system, angular velocity is inversely proportional to the radial distance for constant tangential velocity.
I need a diagram.
Thanks!
I have seen Cartograph-generated images of my minecraft levels. Even with biomes, the world sort of has a noticeable pattern to it at large scales. I think increasing the size of biomes would help, but that is a whole other topic. (people can do this, actually, but it requires code manipulation)
Speaking of 'mystical' realms, I know one guy had an idea of adding the "Ether" (the counterpart to the Nether, accessed through a special portal) which would be composed of floating islands. Search it!
ThanatosMace
Don't necro. Don't double post.
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.
It's not necroposting if this is the only topic about toroidal maps and he's never posted here before. And as a matter of fact, it IS the only topic about toroidal maps, and he HASN'T posted here before. Quit berating other users and just be glad he's probably using the search feature or something.
Anyway...
JackLulz, I think you completely misunderstood my idea to begin with. You seem to think I'm talking about a big map with a hole in the middle, which really isn't what I'm suggesting at all. I think a previous user summed it up pretty well. I'm not suggesting any changes to game mechanics or world generation other than the map looping after some set amount of distance--say, x=5000. For 2D planes that form loops in both the x and y directions, the 3D shape that it forms is a toroid. The hole in the middle is not really apparent, mostly because the planet is so huge.
ThanatosMace