@Abstractor - Just because you can't use a tactic that you don't like or have any faith in and have probably never seriously attempted before doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Quote from spartacuscat »
Ryu Hyabusa did it...
come on, seriously? you're seriously going to use Ninja Gaiden as your basis for Ledge Grabbing?
BUT exploration wise it would still be nice to have because many a time when I have been exploring caves I would've benefited so much from an auto ledge grab instead of falling into an endless chasm.
i can understand that, but just because it would be convenient doesn't mean it should be done. Being able to fall to your doom is one of the basic hazards of the game. you have to be careful when you're mining or moving around so you don't fall into those endless chasms. You can already hold the "sneak" button to keep from falling off if you're walking along the edge of a block (however if you're entirely at the edge and let go of the sneak button, you'll fall off)
Plus people would then be able to make obstacle courses and the plat forming in this game would improve immensely.
I just feel like that would be taking minecraft in an ENTIRELY different direction than what made it enjoyable in the first place. It's like an Italian pizzeria becoming famous for its pizza sauce, and then opening a Chinese takeout branch. Sure, some people might really love the Chinese food, but everyone else is going to be going to wonder where their pizza is.
But maybe there should be a limit.
My limit is the following, seriously I would never want these in Minecraft. EVER!
[stuff that has no business being in minecraft]
And I think I've covered most of the stuff I BELIEVE would not fit in. But of course bear in mind OPINIONS!
I think it's pretty safe to say that none of that stuff should ever even mingle with Minecraft.
I wouldn't mind a grappling hook or rappelling gear, because it would feel more like real spelunking when you venture down into huge natural mineshafts. The only way it would work is if the animations and physics were seriously upgraded.
See, now this is the type of idea I could get behind. It could be set up so that you can place a rope segment on the side or bottom of a block, and then if you try to place another rope segment on a rope segment that has already been placed, it will automatically stick on the bottom end of the set of rope blocks (until it reaches the bottom) being able to BUILD DOWNWARDS is one of the most difficult things to accomplish in Minecraft, and being able to lower and then climb down a rope could greatly improve that aspect and benefit not only the exploration aspects, but the building aspects as well.
Yes, yes I would, you do know Ninja Gaiden was 8 bit too right? And no I'm not suggestion parkouring like in that game just holding on to ledges.And yes I know about the sneak button, what I meant to say on the auto ledge grabbing is ONLY WHEN MAKING JUMPS. That's where the whole platforming came from. Because TBH I seriously want to be able to jump form a ledge and grab on all dramatically and clumsily onto another one that is 4 cubes away. And no it wouldn't take it a different direction because you would still have to build the courses, obstacle courses are not built by themselves, you know?
@Abstractor
A grappling hook like in Lost Planet or LOZ would be pretty cool. I'd switch my John Marston skin to my Spider-Man one or make an Indiana Jones one.
Yes, yes I would, you do know Ninja Gaiden was 8 bit too right?
The issue isn't the 8 bit, the issue is ninja gaiden isn't in a blocky world (like NES Mario is, as is Minecraft) and that in Ninja Gaiden you play as a NINJA.
Yes, yes I would, you do know Ninja Gaiden was 8 bit too right?
The issue isn't the 8 bit, the issue is ninja gaiden isn't in a blocky world (like NES Mario is, as is Minecraft) and that in Ninja Gaiden you play as a NINJA.
Ape Escape's world was pretty blocky bro yet they manged to do ledge grabbing seemlessly, and in Ninja Gaiden there were ledges everywhere which once you think about it they might have as well been cubes since it would have not done much of a difference.
Gonna set up my post with a couple key points first:
The combat system is too simple.
Very few people seem to want an overly complex combat system.
Movement is fine. (This is probably the one I'll get the most disagreement on based on what I've read here)
I think we can all agree that the combat style of hit backtrack/sidestep hit is tedious at best. I think we can also agree that we don't want the WoW style hotkeys for tons of moves or the fighting games back back circle square type fighting. Where it comes down to then is how complicated to make it. On one hand we have the people who like the games simplicity, (in this aspect of the game, i know it's more complex elsewhere) and on the other hand we have people who find the simplicity boring. Now, I may be crazy but I think we can find a common ground here.
One point I'll build off that I think most people agree with here, is shields. In keeping with the simplicity I suggest not adding a new keybind for using shields. Instead I think we already have the perfect button for it. Left shift. When holding left shift you move slower and are crouched down, which works perfect for having a shield in front of you. Basically you just have your shield equipped, your weapon out, when you want to attack you left click when you want to defend, you hold down your left shift. (I picture not being able to attack when holding left shift).
This change alone, which iirc is a favorable change to most of you, does wonders to the combat system already. You no longer have to hit run away hit, though now it is hit block hit, which is still rather simplistic.
The next change, I might lose you guys at, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. When blocking (holding left shift) if you hit left click, you perform a shield bash. (Possibly only if you are using a weapon at the time, so you can still mine/dig when crouched. Another option being making it the right click use for the weapon.) During the time you shield bash you become vulnerable again, so it requires timing, but it either stuns or just slows their attacks down for a short while, (1 sec or so) just enough to get an attack or two extra in. A shield bash would either do no damage or just half a heart (its main purpose being the extra attack you can get in) and would do extra durability damage to the shield, so you might want to use it more sparingly.
At this point you have four options when engaging a mob. Hit, block, shield bash, and move. A great increase over just hit and move, while still being (relatively) simple. The problem at this point becomes combat being too easy, and still repetitive. This is solved with a couple mob changes/additions, such as a mob that moves quicker than you that blocking and shield bash is very effective against, slower mobs such as zombies which even now you don't even have to move, you can just hit until dead, with the knock back keeping you from getting hit. Another mob that ignores the shields, which you would want to use hit/move and/or the bow. As for the creeper, I personally think if you use the shield for the explosion, you should take half damage and the shield should take a large hit.(possibly half)
Anyways... that took a lot more words to explain than I thought it would.. hope I didn't ramble too much. >.>
As for movement being fine... Currently, you run faster than every single mob. I've never had a problem running away. Just keep moving. On steeper terrain I'll admit its harder, but if you hit jump soon enough you won't get caught on the edge. It takes practice, but is easily doable once you get it down. Another thing is, there is already a method for edge grabbing in the game. It just requires a little more ingenuity than just jumping at the ledge. Either have your area you are 'hunting' in prepared with them, or carry around a stack of ladders. Jumping right you can get onto a ladder that is two squares up, for example:
= ladder
(side view)
As far as having them prepared ahead, I personally think it makes a lot of sense to be better able to escape/use your terrain when it is an area you know well and have prepared. Thus being able to use this 'edge grab' where you've prepared but not when you are not prepared for it. Also you can make some pretty far jumps, that I don't think any mobs can currently manage,(the last one I know they can't) for example:
I was experimenting with these as I was trying to make things similar to jump quests in maplestory. All are very much possible. As far as the quick dodge/roll to the side, that one has some merit, though I personally dont care for it. The rest I feel though are already possible or not particularly needed.
Now after having done a MASSIVE wall of text I'll end with, we're all just expressing opinions that don't matter at all because chances are Notch already has plans in his mind for how the combat system will turn out in the end. Can we please try to stay away from personal attacks and be civil to one another? :happy.gif:
TL;DR:
Shields = good
Left shift = use shield
Click when using shield = short 'stun' on monster
ladders = edge grab
you can already jump a two block gap easily (with practice)
lets be nice. =)
Take 40 minutes to write your post and the whole topic changes almost. >.>
That's why you gotta think on your feet bro. Also Ledge grabbing != ladder grabbing. With ledge grabbing you could maybe clear a 4 cube gap, and last time I checked you can't throw ladders at walls and make them stick.
That's why you gotta think on your feet bro. Also Ledge grabbing != ladder grabbing. With ledge grabbing you could maybe clear a 4 cube gap, and last time I checked you can't throw ladders at walls and make them stick.
Only if the side you were jumping to was down 1 or 2 levels, I did a lot of experimenting with the jumping, with 3 blocks apart a the same level, it almost impossible to catch a ladder, which you can catch from nearly the bottom of the block. Also, I think that with the sneak, not being able to fall off, combined with a stack of ladders, which like most blocks you can place from 3-4 blocks away, you can do everything that you're suggesting with the ledge grab, without changing any code.
You know Lost Planet is made by CAPCOM, the creators of Monster Hunter. Imagine having the material requirements for armor, but instead of going to the shop like you do in MH, you create it yourself. Personally this just calls for a larger crafting box, 3x3 is kind of small.
So you're saying there should be armor customization?
Maybe later on in the game's development cycle bro, right now it's too early for that, hell we don't even have a use for eggs, milk, books (come on writing), gold or slime.
@atained
Why keep it so complicated like that though? I mean seriously, think about this too what would happen if you're planning to jump over a chasm that has a lava pit in the bottom? What happens to that ladder? It's either lost forever or you would have to build an entirely new structure just so you can get the ladder back thus doing that trick would be pointless. Plus the code would not have to be changed much, what would need to be changed mostly would be animation in general which Notch has explicitly said multiple times he hates doing (PC gamer interview go read it if you don't believe me), also you can't throw ladders or stick them at some thing that's 4-3 cubes apart AND 6 cubes below now can you?
You seem to be trying to turn this into a WoW clone. I think it's fine the way it is; the monsters are more oriented towards the building aspec tof the game. Creepers are meant to smash the player's stuff, not as a combat mob, etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from dusty328 »
This man really is a genius. Never have i seen such a clear and well written forum post.
@atained
Why keep it so complicated like that though? I mean seriously, think about this too what would happen if you're planning to jump over a chasm that has a lava pit in the bottom? What happens to that ladder? It's either lost forever or you would have to build an entirely new structure just so you can get the ladder back thus doing that trick would be pointless. Plus the code would not have to be changed much, what would need to be changed mostly would be animation in general which Notch has explicitly said multiple times he hates doing (PC gamer interview go read it if you don't believe me), also you can't throw ladders or stick them at some thing that's 4-3 cubes apart AND 6 cubes below now can you?
It wouldn't be redundant IMHO.
I don't find it too complicated, I also think leaving the ladder there for future use is fine. As for a jump that's 4-3 cubes apart and 6 cubes down, I'm pretty sure you could easily make that jump on its own.
I think that this is just a point where we differ in opinion.
You seem to be trying to turn this into a WoW clone. I think it's fine the way it is; the monsters are more oriented towards the building aspec tof the game. Creepers are meant to smash the player's stuff, not as a combat mob, etc.
WOW clone?
WOW is turn based faggotry, I hate WOW, it has no gameplay whatsoever and like most RPGS out there it's just grinding. How is implementing a roll/dodge manuever, or a shield that's activated by pressing the sneak button turning this into wow?
@atainted
I don't think so, try it out yourself, plus as previously mentioned it would spice up combat a bit y allowing players to be much more stealthy, or it can just help them run away WITHOUT having to leave a ladder behind or always be packing them.
I don't think so, try it out yourself, plus as previously mentioned it would spice up combat a bit y allowing players to be much more stealthy, or it can just help them run away WITHOUT having to leave a ladder behind or always be packing them.
I tried out the 4-3 away and 6 down, and made it easily, so I upped it 5 then 4, and finally at 3 down, I couldn't make it just with jumping. As for the other I would say its a matter of opinion at that point, I like my way, you like yours, and we probably won't change each others mind on it.
The idea is either like a short stun or just slow their attack so you can get in another hit or two before you have to block again. With the added potential of possibly being able to stop/delay a creeper explosion. You could also use it to get away faster. Its basically just another tool to be able to use so its not just hit move hit move or hit block hit block.
So it's an actual stun or special move then. Okay, an actual knockback would not be useful against a spider, but a stun or slow down is since they would be much more slower, remember you can't outrun spiders, damn rapists.
So it's an actual stun or special move then. Okay, an actual knockback would not be useful against a spider, but a stun or slow down is since they would be much more slower, remember you can't outrun spiders, damn rapists.
Yeah, the idea being it will help with certain mobs, like spiders, keeping them from jumping at your face. That combined with more monsters, which as we know is planned, including some that hopefully the shield won't work as well against, that might ignore it, where using a bow might be the ideal way to kill them. edit: Forgot to add where I was going with this: The idea being that you might have to use different moves against different mobs, lifting the monotony a bit.
Also, I didn't remember having a hard time running away from spiders, so I tested it, and got away pretty easily. It was on normal, I assume their speed doesn't change based on difficulty though.
come on, seriously? you're seriously going to use Ninja Gaiden as your basis for Ledge Grabbing?
i can understand that, but just because it would be convenient doesn't mean it should be done. Being able to fall to your doom is one of the basic hazards of the game. you have to be careful when you're mining or moving around so you don't fall into those endless chasms. You can already hold the "sneak" button to keep from falling off if you're walking along the edge of a block (however if you're entirely at the edge and let go of the sneak button, you'll fall off)
I just feel like that would be taking minecraft in an ENTIRELY different direction than what made it enjoyable in the first place. It's like an Italian pizzeria becoming famous for its pizza sauce, and then opening a Chinese takeout branch. Sure, some people might really love the Chinese food, but everyone else is going to be going to wonder where their pizza is.
I think it's pretty safe to say that none of that stuff should ever even mingle with Minecraft.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
See, now this is the type of idea I could get behind. It could be set up so that you can place a rope segment on the side or bottom of a block, and then if you try to place another rope segment on a rope segment that has already been placed, it will automatically stick on the bottom end of the set of rope blocks (until it reaches the bottom) being able to BUILD DOWNWARDS is one of the most difficult things to accomplish in Minecraft, and being able to lower and then climb down a rope could greatly improve that aspect and benefit not only the exploration aspects, but the building aspects as well.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Yes, yes I would, you do know Ninja Gaiden was 8 bit too right? And no I'm not suggestion parkouring like in that game just holding on to ledges.And yes I know about the sneak button, what I meant to say on the auto ledge grabbing is ONLY WHEN MAKING JUMPS. That's where the whole platforming came from. Because TBH I seriously want to be able to jump form a ledge and grab on all dramatically and clumsily onto another one that is 4 cubes away. And no it wouldn't take it a different direction because you would still have to build the courses, obstacle courses are not built by themselves, you know?
@Abstractor
A grappling hook like in Lost Planet or LOZ would be pretty cool. I'd switch my John Marston skin to my Spider-Man one or make an Indiana Jones one.
The issue isn't the 8 bit, the issue is ninja gaiden isn't in a blocky world (like NES Mario is, as is Minecraft) and that in Ninja Gaiden you play as a NINJA.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Ape Escape's world was pretty blocky bro yet they manged to do ledge grabbing seemlessly, and in Ninja Gaiden there were ledges everywhere which once you think about it they might have as well been cubes since it would have not done much of a difference.
The combat system is too simple.
Very few people seem to want an overly complex combat system.
Movement is fine. (This is probably the one I'll get the most disagreement on based on what I've read here)
I think we can all agree that the combat style of hit backtrack/sidestep hit is tedious at best. I think we can also agree that we don't want the WoW style hotkeys for tons of moves or the fighting games back back circle square type fighting. Where it comes down to then is how complicated to make it. On one hand we have the people who like the games simplicity, (in this aspect of the game, i know it's more complex elsewhere) and on the other hand we have people who find the simplicity boring. Now, I may be crazy but I think we can find a common ground here.
One point I'll build off that I think most people agree with here, is shields. In keeping with the simplicity I suggest not adding a new keybind for using shields. Instead I think we already have the perfect button for it. Left shift. When holding left shift you move slower and are crouched down, which works perfect for having a shield in front of you. Basically you just have your shield equipped, your weapon out, when you want to attack you left click when you want to defend, you hold down your left shift. (I picture not being able to attack when holding left shift).
This change alone, which iirc is a favorable change to most of you, does wonders to the combat system already. You no longer have to hit run away hit, though now it is hit block hit, which is still rather simplistic.
The next change, I might lose you guys at, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. When blocking (holding left shift) if you hit left click, you perform a shield bash. (Possibly only if you are using a weapon at the time, so you can still mine/dig when crouched. Another option being making it the right click use for the weapon.) During the time you shield bash you become vulnerable again, so it requires timing, but it either stuns or just slows their attacks down for a short while, (1 sec or so) just enough to get an attack or two extra in. A shield bash would either do no damage or just half a heart (its main purpose being the extra attack you can get in) and would do extra durability damage to the shield, so you might want to use it more sparingly.
At this point you have four options when engaging a mob. Hit, block, shield bash, and move. A great increase over just hit and move, while still being (relatively) simple. The problem at this point becomes combat being too easy, and still repetitive. This is solved with a couple mob changes/additions, such as a mob that moves quicker than you that blocking and shield bash is very effective against, slower mobs such as zombies which even now you don't even have to move, you can just hit until dead, with the knock back keeping you from getting hit. Another mob that ignores the shields, which you would want to use hit/move and/or the bow. As for the creeper, I personally think if you use the shield for the explosion, you should take half damage and the shield should take a large hit.(possibly half)
Anyways... that took a lot more words to explain than I thought it would.. hope I didn't ramble too much. >.>
As for movement being fine... Currently, you run faster than every single mob. I've never had a problem running away. Just keep moving. On steeper terrain I'll admit its harder, but if you hit jump soon enough you won't get caught on the edge. It takes practice, but is easily doable once you get it down. Another thing is, there is already a method for edge grabbing in the game. It just requires a little more ingenuity than just jumping at the ledge. Either have your area you are 'hunting' in prepared with them, or carry around a stack of ladders. Jumping right you can get onto a ladder that is two squares up, for example:
(side view)
As far as having them prepared ahead, I personally think it makes a lot of sense to be better able to escape/use your terrain when it is an area you know well and have prepared. Thus being able to use this 'edge grab' where you've prepared but not when you are not prepared for it. Also you can make some pretty far jumps, that I don't think any mobs can currently manage,(the last one I know they can't) for example:
(top view)
(top view)
[] [] []
(top view) - Difficult
[] [] [] []
[] [] []
(side view) - Very Difficult
I was experimenting with these as I was trying to make things similar to jump quests in maplestory. All are very much possible. As far as the quick dodge/roll to the side, that one has some merit, though I personally dont care for it. The rest I feel though are already possible or not particularly needed.
Now after having done a MASSIVE wall of text I'll end with, we're all just expressing opinions that don't matter at all because chances are Notch already has plans in his mind for how the combat system will turn out in the end. Can we please try to stay away from personal attacks and be civil to one another? :happy.gif:
TL;DR:
Shields = good
Left shift = use shield
Click when using shield = short 'stun' on monster
ladders = edge grab
you can already jump a two block gap easily (with practice)
lets be nice. =)
That's why you gotta think on your feet bro. Also Ledge grabbing != ladder grabbing. With ledge grabbing you could maybe clear a 4 cube gap, and last time I checked you can't throw ladders at walls and make them stick.
Only if the side you were jumping to was down 1 or 2 levels, I did a lot of experimenting with the jumping, with 3 blocks apart a the same level, it almost impossible to catch a ladder, which you can catch from nearly the bottom of the block. Also, I think that with the sneak, not being able to fall off, combined with a stack of ladders, which like most blocks you can place from 3-4 blocks away, you can do everything that you're suggesting with the ledge grab, without changing any code.
EDIT: added the quote
So you're saying there should be armor customization?
Maybe later on in the game's development cycle bro, right now it's too early for that, hell we don't even have a use for eggs, milk, books (come on writing), gold or slime.
@atained
Why keep it so complicated like that though? I mean seriously, think about this too what would happen if you're planning to jump over a chasm that has a lava pit in the bottom? What happens to that ladder? It's either lost forever or you would have to build an entirely new structure just so you can get the ladder back thus doing that trick would be pointless. Plus the code would not have to be changed much, what would need to be changed mostly would be animation in general which Notch has explicitly said multiple times he hates doing (PC gamer interview go read it if you don't believe me), also you can't throw ladders or stick them at some thing that's 4-3 cubes apart AND 6 cubes below now can you?
It wouldn't be redundant IMHO.
I don't find it too complicated, I also think leaving the ladder there for future use is fine. As for a jump that's 4-3 cubes apart and 6 cubes down, I'm pretty sure you could easily make that jump on its own.
I think that this is just a point where we differ in opinion.
WOW clone?
WOW is turn based faggotry, I hate WOW, it has no gameplay whatsoever and like most RPGS out there it's just grinding. How is implementing a roll/dodge manuever, or a shield that's activated by pressing the sneak button turning this into wow?
@atainted
I don't think so, try it out yourself, plus as previously mentioned it would spice up combat a bit y allowing players to be much more stealthy, or it can just help them run away WITHOUT having to leave a ladder behind or always be packing them.
I tried out the 4-3 away and 6 down, and made it easily, so I upped it 5 then 4, and finally at 3 down, I couldn't make it just with jumping. As for the other I would say its a matter of opinion at that point, I like my way, you like yours, and we probably won't change each others mind on it.
So uhmmm, well then yeah, I guess this is it until someone presents a larger issue right?
Yep, guess so. Also, what did you think about the combat specific changes I mentioned? Do you think that's enough to make it more interesting?
What would shield bashing do though? Stun players and mobs? Disorient them? Literally knock them away from you so you can run away much faster?
Sorry if I missed it's purpose
Yeah, the idea being it will help with certain mobs, like spiders, keeping them from jumping at your face. That combined with more monsters, which as we know is planned, including some that hopefully the shield won't work as well against, that might ignore it, where using a bow might be the ideal way to kill them. edit: Forgot to add where I was going with this: The idea being that you might have to use different moves against different mobs, lifting the monotony a bit.
Also, I didn't remember having a hard time running away from spiders, so I tested it, and got away pretty easily. It was on normal, I assume their speed doesn't change based on difficulty though.