I see where the combat guys are coming from, there is room for improvement. Luckily the game isn't even near to being finished, so it's likely that it will be improved at least somewhat. With the mentioned Adventure mode, it kind of needs to have better-than-current combat (tho we don't even have the mode yet!); the mode is pretty much designed around a more traditional RPG experience, and that will entail chopping things. If we don't all murder each other in rabid speculation over the Hallowe'en update we'll probably get some better ideas of what to expect from the future of this game. A much more complex game is going to be coming out of this update, with a lot of elements (Biomes, new mobs, new lighting concerns, SCARY FISH! D: ) changing up the current gaming style. We'll see how Notch's admiration for old-style AI monsters plays out with the Ghast and such. If they're interesting to deal with in the current combat system, or just evil and mean, we'll find out in half a month.
Personally I find the current system adequate, but with space for tweaking. Shields would be win; almost a necessity for an Adventure mode since you'd have zero tools to use. Jumping two blocks tho, I'm less down with. A two-meter leap practically straight up seems a little too springy in the feet for me, unless there's at least one mob who could do a 2-block jump as well. I'd rather have a slightly longer jump than a higher jump. The ledge grab idea is cool in that regard for those dramatic escapes when the mobs run off a cliff and you make it (or totally fall and die :biggrin.gif:).
That being said, I understand the other folks, who are probably worried about the "hardcoar" crowd who usually ONLY lust for blood, even blocky cubist blood; not that I'm making that an accusation here. I think the fear is that too much emphasis on combat details will take the game down too many familiar game genre paths; that's a fair concern. As long as the combat additions aren't too up-front compared to the overall game though, I'm thinking they shouldn't really be an issue. Also, I've seen it mentioned that some of the reason for desiring moar combat is to stave off boredom from lack of long-term goals or player direction. This is also something that simply hasn't been added to the game yet to any great degree, but is forthcoming at some future date.
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Quote from will_holmes »
Quote from anon »
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that I'm the only person who plays Minecraft normally.
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that there is no such thing as playing Minecraft normally.
This is really frustrating.
Some revamped combat is all we want. We don't want this to turn into a fighting game, hell no.
We just want a fair fight with all the damned monsters that keep spawning. Right now they're not frightening, they're not challenging, they're really just a royal pain in the ass. Things like not being able to dodge Skeletons' arrows when you're within hitting range and **** like that needs to be ****ing fixed. Or when a creeper lands right on top of you, not being able to roll out of the way is cheap.
No, I'm not bitching that the mobs are too hard. They're too cheap, too boring and too much of a pain in the ass. And I swear that if someone tells me to go play on Peaceful I'll **** in a bucket and pour it over my innocent neighbors.
I don't need a crazy detailed hand-to-hand ****ing Bruce Lee martial arts system, what I want is to actually be able to kill **** with the swords you're supposed to make. I know you can make a bow. That's nice, but it still doesn't make the combat not suck.
On the issue of ledge grabbing, this is also really frustrating.
It's not going to detract from a single damned part of the building, Christ!
What the **** is it, are you guys afraid that people won't need a shelter because they can grab ledges? Or that people won't need to gather resources because they can grab ledges?
Placing a block just to step up a 2 block high ledge is a pain in the ass. It's not challenging, frightening or entertaining, it's a tedious waste of resources.
Personally I'd like to use the building part for building. Being able to pull yourself up one extra block honestly isn't going to change **** aside from making it more fluid.
Ledge grabbing could work like this:
Say you're mid jump, going up. If you're facing a ledge and you're RIGHT ON IT and it's only one block above your feet (a two block tall jump) and you have nothing selected, then your dude will automatically climb over it. I'm a little iffy on the click to grab because I'd be afraid of breaking that block. Maybe holding right click to push up a ledge.
I repeat, being able to push a little bit to get up a two block tall ledge is NOT going to get a single soul out of making a shelter.
That being said, I understand the other folks, who are probably worried about the "hardcoar" crowd who usually ONLY lust for blood, even blocky cubist blood; not that I'm making that an accusation here. I think the fear is that too much emphasis on combat details will take the game down too many familiar game genre paths; that's a fair concern. As long as the combat additions aren't too up-front compared to the overall game though, I'm thinking they shouldn't really be an issue. Also, I've seen it mentioned that some of the reason for desiring moar combat is to stave off boredom from lack of long-term goals or player direction. This is also something that simply hasn't been added to the game yet to any great degree, but is forthcoming at some future date.
Thank you. We're not trying to turn combat into the main facet, we're trying to make it into an entertaining facet like the rest of the game.
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For the socially adept miner. It's free, so click it!
And it is not supporting your point, because at best that jump-block ide was accidental, obviously, able to jump one block high and you can place a block anywhere your body isn't located, it's just a programming glitch that players sought to abuse.
The programming "glitch" has been there for 2 games now. By this point, intentional or not, it's called a feature now.
I like how you completely use a red herring to disacknowledge the fact that using the jump-block technique renders ladder and stairs useless.
Not a red herring, I just didn't bother mentioning it because they serve completely different purposes. Jump blocking lets you quickly move up and nothing else, provided you have the material for it on hand at the time, however it also gets in your way if you want to use the same route again or if you want to go BACK DOWN the way you came. Ladders allow you to go back down and back up multiple times with much greater convenience than jump blocking.
I also completely disagree with your portal reference, the portal gun was intended and was a creative way of introducing transportation, it was a cool way to solve puzzles. Building a 30 block high pillar to get to the ceiling of your castle is about as creative and entertaining as watching grass grow, my friend. And you really misjudge the ledge grab idea, it would be for minor things, like jumping a two block tall wall, or grabbing a ledge if you accidentally fall, doing away with boring block hopping for such trivial ****.
And again, you continue to be presumptuous like this is your game and you know how it's going to be played out,
And you continue to treat primary founding principles of the game like they're unimportant. If those features were unimportant, then how the heck has this game gotten so many fans? Why are YOU a fan? Are you telling me that the only reason you chose to play this game was for its rich and detailed battle system? Being able to reshape your world to suit your needs and desires IS the primary feature of the game. I cannot even begin to describe how foolish it is to try to debate that point.
and you are now attacking the way i'm posting,
please stop that. I'm allergic to hypocrite and I have to take a shot now to ward off anaphylactic shock. You need to take a look in the mirror before you start accusing anyone else of attacking anything.
maybe i just forget about the edit feature because i am used to other forums that don't have them, so quit the obnoxious attitude.
Yeah, right, you "forgot" The fact that you immediately followed this post with ANOTHER double post is because you "forgot" again, right?
Fhyve, you've been actively trying to keep your thread from getting derailed by stupidity, so I feel that deserves an in depth look at the things you've mentioned:
Quote from Fhyve »
When dealing with monsters, you have three options to deal with them: safehousing/blocking them off, fleeing and attacking. As it is, attacking and fleeing aren't very viable or rewarding. The only thing monsters do right now is to force you indoors and limit what you can do. This makes variety in monsters arbitrary as they are all just dangerous things to shut away. If you want to kill them, you have to slowly and carefully carve out the perfect hole in which you can swipe at their legs or if you are outdoors, run inside and lure them into your trap or wait til they burn in the morning.
One thing I find is that with monsters being so hard to deal with, I tend to focus my building during the daytime, and then focus on cave exploration and mining during night. Monsters are easier to deal with when you can seal off a tunnel as you see an enemy coming for you. Fleeing is possible, but requires you to use the land and your building abilities to slow down enemies so you can get away. But with enemies like the skeletons, fleeing can be pretty difficult without taking a fair amount of damage, and the same is true for trying to use any type of melee attack on them.
If these three options were more balanced then the player can do more stuff. The player would be happier
Some people feel that monsters are there to hunt you down. Fair enough, setting difficulty to "Hard" should make attacking less viable and fleeing more viable. If you like combat and want to hunt zombies, then setting the difficulty to "Easy" should make it more viable.
This is a fair assessment in what Minecraft's difficulty settings should be trying to accomplish. Easy difficulties should make you feel like the top predator, while hard difficulties make you feel like you're just trying to survive, and normal makes you feel like you can give as good as you take.
What is needed to balance attacking? When in caves: ways to approach skeletons with less risk and ways of reliably killing creepers (when they don't sneak up on you). To approach skeletons, two things are needed: shields and more maneuverability.
This is very true, and it's the primary reason i support the implementation of shields as well as a short burst "dodge" move (this does NOT include double jumps)
Both of these are outlined below in the OP(diamond and lava+iron pictures respectively). The killing of creepers is also outlined below (creeper picture). When outside, the above can be used and is sometimes necessary but also more dangerous. Alternatively you could use better ranged weapons (gold).
It took me a while to figure out what all of this meant, you may want to restructure your ideas into better groups instead of needing to refer to later groupings.
To make luring more viable, mobs should not be chained to a specific piece of land (I don't think they are anyways) and should spawn around valuable materials.
I don't think this should really be the case. Rather than being natural environmental hazards, they become guardians that have been placed there. This is fine for dungeons, but if it carried over to other areas it would only make them seem like dungeons as well.
Some changes other than stats will be needed to make the easy/hard difficulties balance properly. In easy, other than making mobs weaker, the creeper should have a bigger trigger radius and slightly longer explosion delay, mobs would have a higher aggro radius. For hard, mobs should have a smaller aggro radius but move faster, creepers should have a smaller trigger radius and shorter fuse.
The idea for the creeper is excellent, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you mean by aggro radius. I would think that in easy mode, you should need to get closer to an enemy before they will take notice and try to attack you, which seems like this should mean that the mobs have a smaller aggro radius. Hard mode should have them with a larger aggro radius so that enemies notice you and come after you much sooner. If you're looking at the tactic of "luring" enemies then attacking an enemy should count as aggroing even if you're outside of their standard range.
Making movement less clunky would change more aspects of the game than just combat. It would affect platforming and general travel. *By clunky, I mean that you frequently have to stop moving due to terrain so you can jump. The more fluid system involves: jumping two blocks allowing you to jump over things and on to things with much less stopping, and dashing to maneuver in midair and travel over small gaps or onto ledges. The reason why movement is so jarring is because you have to maneuver over each 1x1x1m block one at a time, frequently stopping to do so. With this system of movement you can skip blocks and more places from a given point, ie. more options.
No. The problem here is that improving the players movement to be able to jump 2 blocks high, or 2 blocks long will allow them to jump over gaps that just about all enemy mobs would not standardly be able to jump over. This would make it TOO easy to get away from enemies no matter what you had the difficulty set to. If you did want to implement this, you would need to also improve the enemy AI to be able to use these techniques as well. This issue hampers the implementation of sprinting for the same reasons.
What would be a better issue to focus on for movement is to improve the player's ability to "slide" across a block when they are obstructed by that block. So that if a block gets in the way of a player, they don't get stopped completely in their tracks, but will attempt to move parallel to the face of the block until they get past it, at which point they will resume their intended direction.
These changes would give the player many more options to play the game like they want to, as a survival game playing some hapless miner, or play as a monster slaying adventurer, or a balance of both.
I really think the range should only extend from Hapless miner to Balance of Miner&Monster Slayer. Minecraft was founded on the "Explore, Gather, Build" aspects of the game, with Build being the primary feature, being able to completely ignore this feature to such a great extent would be like, as I've said before, playing Portal with the ability to fly and move through walls so you didn't need to use the Portal Gun.
Combat is tedious. Combat is difficult and being skillful doesn't make it much faster, it just means you lose less life. This is because the options you have in combat do not allow you to reliably defeat most enemies.
I do agree with this. Even zombies are a ***** and a half if you happen to have one sneak up on you or if you're dealing with more than one enemy at a time.
Skeletons and creepers are the main problems. Skeletons deal damage from range and the only way to avoid their attacks is by moving, which is very clunky. Creepers are very deadly and ruin buildings and the only way to kill them is to: run away while slashing, bait them into exploding and shooting them from a distance. Running, as stated before is very clunky and to kill a creeper adequate room is required which you don't always have, especially while mining. Baiting them into exploding usually causes damage to yourself and can damage property. Shooting is weak and somewhat difficult to aim due to arrow movement speed, also adequate room is required.
It's not even so much that adequate room is required, but adequate response time is the most important. If you are in the middle of mining, you'll likely have your pickaxe or your torches out. I can't tell how many times I've died that have simply been an issue of not being able to switch to my sword or bow naturally while trying to avoid arrows and pay attention to where I'm retreating to. Just implementing the system where you have to actually left click to select your block/tool, and then being able to use middle click as a "last block/tool used" button would be great.
Here is what I suggest: A shield should be added for the purpose of killing skeletons in close quarters (and making spiders a little easier). The shield would protect your front from most damage. This would allow you to approach skeletons, where you could then slash them, shield, slash. The balancing factors are that creepers and fire (dragons?) would still damage you and that it only protects your front allowing other monsters to flank you.
I agree with this, and have a much more in depth description both for what the ability of a shield would be, as well as how they would be crafted in the middle of THIS POST.
There should be ranged options that shoot faster moving projectiles, do more damage, and knock back more. A crossbow perhaps. This would allow you to deal with skeletons and creepers out doors when you have some open space.
This one is not based on your feedback but it makes sense; a second tier ranged weapon, more options. For the crossbow, the reload time could be increased (or rather, exist in the first place)
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(Crossbow) (Bolt) yay more uses for the oh-so abundant iron!
I generally disagree with the idea that you need a more POWERFUL weapon that the Bow. (I have an idea for the less powerful ranged weapon of a Sling in the SAME POST as the shields) The bow needs its firing rate nerfed as it is, but having a range weapon of similar power but different tactics to use it could be acceptable:
The Crossbow fires at only half the rate of a bow(once the bows speed is nerfed to be less than "as fast as the player can click the button") and will not travel any farther, however the bolt travels twice as fast as an arrow, does 1.5x damage of an arrow, and knocks the target back twice as far as if they were hit by an arrow.
Having a slower firing rate will put a much greater importance on accuracy, and the expense of needing to use iron and string to craft the crossbow, and 2 iron for every 4 bolts (and not having any bolts dropped by enemies) should make the price high enough that it offsets the potential advantage of using the crossbow.
Movement should be less incredibly clunky. Navigating even the simplest terrain in this game is frustrating and slow. I have come up with two different ways to make movement more fluid. First is double-tap dash and double jump. Press a movement key twice in a row within a certain time frame without pressing any keys in between and you quickly move 2 blocks in that direction (think Gunz or Quake). Press space in the top half of your jump will cause you to jump another ~1.25 blocks upwards. This is the more dynamic of the two options but is less realistic. It allows you to maneuver in midair and quickly dodge attacks.
As I've said, the doubletap to dash I'll accept, though I think it only needs to be able to rapidly move 1 block, but 2 blocks might be acceptable. However there would need to be a cooldown period to keep the player from being able to dodge infinitely and also to prevent using it as a sprinting technique. The jumpblocking technique already can be used as a form of doublejumping that actually supports the primary game mechanic of minecraft, instead of implementing a new one that bypasses the need to use that mechanic.
Second is the sprint and short/long hop or two block jump. Press the sprint button (C for example) for a momentary boost in speed (think most newer fps's).More useful for approach and retreat than dodging.[/color] With this option, gravity should be increased to reduce air time because you can't move much in the air.
Sprinting wouldn't need to press C, just doubletap the direction you want to sprint in, same as dash/dodging, but then hold down a movement button. As long as your endurance holds out, you should keep sprinting until you release the movement key. The endurance should be connected to a meter, possibly even the oxygen meter that counts down when you're sprinting, just like it would while you were underwater, and it could even be set so that if you keep sprinting after your oxygen runs out, you'll start taking temporary damage the same as if you were underwater. (though it should be set to simply disable sprinting when you reach 1/2 HP and not let you sprint again until your HP fully recovers) However with this, it should be set so that with both sprinting and being underwater, your Oxygen doesn't instantly regenerate when you stop sprinting or get your head back above water.
Tap space to jump one block, press and hold space to jump two(think Smash bros.). This is more realistic but gives less options.
Part of the problem i have here is you aren't terribly clear about what you mean by 2 block jump. Do you mean 2 block height or 2 block length? both? I can accept the idea that holding it gets you the higher jump and tapping gets you a shorter jump for a realistic implementation.
Either way, with both jumping and sprinting, if you're going to implement it in the player's abilities, the monsters should be able to do it as well. Where the real kicker of my issue comes is that as the movement system gets more complex, it becomes harder and harder for the AI to properly utilize that movement, but more than that, if the AI DOES manage to effectively utilize the more complex movement system, then new players are at an even WORSE disadvantage as they not only need to learn the building system in order to enjoy the main purpose of the game, but also must learn the movement/combat system as well in order to effectively survive enemy mobs.
This is where I'm coming from when I'm saying that focusing on the combat will reduce the focus on the BUILD portion of Minecraft. Sure, it's easy for we more experienced players to learn a combat system like that since we've already learned similar systems from other games, and we already have had a chance to just focus on the Build aspects of minecraft without serious combat requirements, but new players often have a hard time learning more than one thing at a time, so they will end up choosing which aspect to focus on. In the scenario where enemies are better at fighting and moving, these players will have to focus on learning the movement/combat aspect in order to survive, and the building aspect will fall to the wayside, or at the very least be severely stunted compared to what it would have been if they had focused on building alone.
The choice is still here, between sprint and dash. For survival, sprint seems to make more sense although the dodge would be nice too. However, it seems that some of you favor the double tap dash as opposed to the sprint (me too!). In either case, jump should be increased to two. In addition to both options, base walk speed should be increased, fall damage should be slightly decreased and you should be able to grab ledges by left clicking while in midair (press space to get up).
No, pretty much none of these. The long/tall jump, double jump, and ledge grab all have the issues where they shift the focus of the game from "shape your environment to suit your desires" to "learn how to navigate obstacles" the sprint, and increased walk speed all have the issue where if you can do it, enemies should be able to do it to (you should not be able to just walk away from a hostile enemy, and if you can run, they should be able to run too)
The dash/dodge feature can at least be balanced by having a cooldown period, so that if you used it repeatedly in single direction, your average speed would still come out the same as walking normally.
But what about creepers you ask? Well, better ranged weapons and better movement makes them manageable outdoors but for indoors, I think creepers should be changed so that there are more options when dealing with one while still being as dangerous (or more dangerous).
I agree with the philosophy here, but Creepers serve a specific almost quasi-spiritual function. Many of the things that people hate about the creepers are the exact same thing that makes them so popular.
Creepers should have a higher trigger radius, take longer to explode once triggered,
these balance out. I personally like this just because Creepers are otherwise silent. The "ssss" sound of their fuse being triggered is the only warning you have that they're even around. Just having an extra second or two of warning would greatly improve the ability for an experienced player to survive them.
be immobile when triggered,
No. This is just downright nerfing them, and to an extent that they would barely be effective at all.
should not explode if killed while triggered, (if this is not the case)
they already don't explode if you kill them while their fuse is running down, but it is possible to have them explode just before you get your swing in
and explode less if they have taken damage (up to 2/3 damage).
i like this idea as well, if you damage them, it should cut a percentage off their total explosive power, though you should not be able to reduce them further than 50% Creepers have 10HP, so each HP = -5% explosive power.
To balance this, creepers destructive (block destroying) radius should be reduced but should have a larger damaging, perhaps fiery radius that would be about 1/3 to 1/2 bigger than the radius of the current explosion. This make it so that if they are triggered, they will almost certainly hurt you but if you have fast reactions it can be mitigated.
This honestly comes across too complex to me. Instead of needing to change this, simply allow the doubletap dash/dodge to move the player out of the blast radius, provided the creeper is not directly beside the player. Also allow shields to at least reduce the damage taken from an explosion provided the player is directly facing the creeper as it explodes. These two options would make much more sense for mitigating the damage from creepers and can also be used as an effective strategy against skeletons, all without needing to modify the way the player actually moves around the environment.
It also gives you an option for killing them in close quarters, bait then kill. It also makes them less holycrap BOOMdead, more like holy crap sssssss *slash*sssss BOOM ouch...
That pretty much IS their purpose though. For all intents and purposes Creepers fill the role of "Natural Disaster" within the Minecraft world and basically is clamoring to fit in the ranks with Pyramid Head from Silent Hill and Chainsaw guy from Resident Evil. Sure your ideas might make them more balanced, but it will ultimately ruin what makes them so enjoyed by people.
Red invincibility when hit should be removed and attack speed should be (greatly) limited for both player and monsters.
I don't think it should be removed, but merely reduced a bit.
3rd person cross hair should be located above the player rather than on it's head
I generally don't play 3rd person, but yeah this is true.
A motion blur/trail effect should follow the sword when you slash so you can actually see the range of the weapon
I'm not even sure how this would be implemented so it looked right, but that would be rather nice to know.
In general, combat needs to be considered when adding new monsters and items. When you think of a new monster, think "how could I kill avoid that?" Consider your options, what counters what, is something uncounterable? Then create either remove it, change it so it is counterable or add a mechanic that counters it. So you can counter while you counter...
By this, in a defensive styled game, counter means being able to avoid being killed by it.
ultimately, Shields, where using them disables left&right click so you must choose between defending and attacking, and doubletap dodge/dash which allows timing to make the difference between completely avoiding damage and not avoiding it at all, are the best and simplest ways to enrich combat. This means that recognizing patterns and timing becomes the primary skill in battle, and being effective enough with these skills can make a person near invincible, and it also means that monsters can be made "harder" simply by making their attack/defend/undefended pattern more random, less telegraphed, and just generally not as easy to follow.
This comes from my experience in fighter games and in competitive game design.
My points come from my experience with adventure games, which in general seems to be more suited to the nature of Minecraft than that of pure fighter games.
DIFFERENT, Pros and cons should balance out, but not be a straight out "better" than bow.
Make movement less clunky
Maybe, but not in most of the ways suggested so far.
Make creepers take longer to explode but explode bigger
It depends on how things balance out, the creeper still needs to retain its "Natural Disaster" level danger factor though.
Oh! here's an idea, how about making combat more viable in easy mode and surviving more viable in hard and a balance between in normal? There wouldn't be any difference in actions you can make but it would change enemy stats and behavior (see creeper above, longer explode timer and bigger trigger radius in easy).
I've always dreamed of a game that actually improves the intelligence of the AI with stronger difficulty, instead of just making them do and take more damage, but it never happens. The real danger in attempting that, is that there may actually be some exploit in the AI at a harder level of difficulty that actually makes the "harder" enemies easier to deal with when you know how to exploit the weakness in the coding. only messing with the stats is a much more certain method to ensure that enemies will be harder on hard and easier on easy.
My support for the shield is OVER 9,000%!!!
Although my idea for a shield is to have it be equipped like armor, but it does nothing for protecting damage. What it would do is block projectiles completely, but ONLY if you're facing the projectile when it hits you. (this way they would still be somewhat threatening--kinda pointless to have an attack that could be blocked 100% of the time with a single piece of equipment...)
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"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
~Abraham Lincoln
Combat in a survival game should be crappy and frantic. Your not Tommy testosterone tits, your just some random guy trying to survive.
Combat is good and relentless and difficult which is good.
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Quote from mjcabooseblu »
Muncher is right, listen to him, he can cure the blind and make paraplegics walk.
Combat maneuvers in Minecraft will not solve anything. Before that, movement in the game would have to be more fluid, mobs would be required a much better AI, their spawn rates and gang patterns would have to be greatly altered... In fact, everything about mobs would have to change in this game, even the way you currently wave your sword. Then you could think start implementing a more complex and complete combat system. All together these are very complex features.
If you wish for combat to be more interesting, you are starting way ahead of yourself. I suggest you start with the very basics. Right now this thread looks like a "I want the game to be better", because it really lacks any focus. You don't do better combat with the behavioral and "animatronics" of the current mobs. You just don't.
Maybe now you realize what you are asking is perhaps beyond the capabilities (and possibly even the interest) of this game. In Minecraft combat is supposed to be coming to you and when it does, you are basically in trouble. It's not supposed to satisfy an hunger for action, but to satiate a thirst for variety.
Read my post. The only "Combat maneuver" that I suggest is for the purpose of making movement more fluid (double tap dash). I also believe in starting with the character and not what the character has to kill. I agree that mob AI needs to be changed (I suggest a creeper change... read!) but starting with the basic player mechanics seems more logical to me. Your method of designing the monsters and then the player might work though. What I am suggesting would be incredibly easy to add to the game. I have made a little java fighter that has much more complex movement, double jump WITH continuous variable jump height on both jumps, fast fall, double-tap dash and wall climbing. Notch is a MUCH better programmer than I, he could implement these changes easily. I don't think a shield, dashing and increasing jump height by 1 (simplification) is that hard to program.
I suggest you actually read my post.
(will reply to grey in a moment)
The idea for the creeper is excellent, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you mean by aggro radius. I would think that in easy mode, you should need to get closer to an enemy before they will take notice and try to attack you, which seems like this should mean that the mobs have a smaller aggro radius. Hard mode should have them with a larger aggro radius so that enemies notice you and come after you much sooner. If you're looking at the tactic of "luring" enemies then attacking an enemy should count as aggroing even if you're outside of their standard range.
Yea, I was just thinking that if easy were more combat oriented then you would run into more mobs. Sorta ass backwards. I changed the OP though.
No. The problem here is that improving the players movement to be able to jump 2 blocks high, or 2 blocks long will allow them to jump over gaps that just about all enemy mobs would not standardly be able to jump over. This would make it TOO easy to get away from enemies no matter what you had the difficulty set to. If you did want to implement this, you would need to also improve the enemy AI to be able to use these techniques as well. This issue hampers the implementation of sprinting for the same reasons.
What would be a better issue to focus on for movement is to improve the player's ability to "slide" across a block when they are obstructed by that block. So that if a block gets in the way of a player, they don't get stopped completely in their tracks, but will attempt to move parallel to the face of the block until they get past it, at which point they will resume their intended direction.
Creeper's surprise explode and skeletons already counter this to an extent. More mobs could make this point moot (especially flying ones)
I really think the range should only extend from Hapless miner to Balance of Miner&Monster Slayer. Minecraft was founded on the "Explore, Gather, Build" aspects of the game, with Build being the primary feature, being able to completely ignore this feature to such a great extent would be like, as I've said before, playing Portal with the ability to fly and move through walls so you didn't need to use the Portal Gun.
A lot of people would want more combat. I see no point in limiting them. Just as long as that game mode is distanced from what is considered normal minecraft.
The Crossbow fires at only half the rate of a bow(once the bows speed is nerfed to be less than "as fast as the player can click the button") and will not travel any farther, however the bolt travels twice as fast as an arrow, does 1.5x damage of an arrow, and knocks the target back twice as far as if they were hit by an arrow.
Having a slower firing rate will put a much greater importance on accuracy, and the expense of needing to use iron and string to craft the crossbow, and 2 iron for every 4 bolts (and not having any bolts dropped by enemies) should make the price high enough that it offsets the potential advantage of using the crossbow.
That's pretty much what I suggested :tongue.gif:. I changed the OP to make that clearer.
As I've said, the doubletap to dash I'll accept, though I think it only needs to be able to rapidly move 1 block, but 2 blocks might be acceptable. However there would need to be a cooldown period to keep the player from being able to dodge infinitely and also to prevent using it as a sprinting technique. The jumpblocking technique already can be used as a form of doublejumping that actually supports the primary game mechanic of minecraft, instead of implementing a new one that bypasses the need to use that mechanic.
One block would make it worse than walking . The cooldown is reasonable though.
I think blockjumping should only be reserved for bigger obstacles and you need one block under you to do it with horizontal momentum. The point is is that it is really slow.
Sprinting wouldn't need to press C, just doubletap the direction you want to sprint in, same as dash/dodging, but then hold down a movement button. As long as your endurance holds out, you should keep sprinting until you release the movement key. The endurance should be connected to a meter, possibly even the oxygen meter that counts down when you're sprinting, just like it would while you were underwater, and it could even be set so that if you keep sprinting after your oxygen runs out, you'll start taking temporary damage the same as if you were underwater. (though it should be set to simply disable sprinting when you reach 1/2 HP and not let you sprint again until your HP fully recovers) However with this, it should be set so that with both sprinting and being underwater, your Oxygen doesn't instantly regenerate when you stop sprinting or get your head back above water.
All this makes sense although it seems like we are leaning towards dash.
This is where I'm coming from when I'm saying that focusing on the combat will reduce the focus on the BUILD portion of Minecraft. Sure, it's easy for we more experienced players to learn a combat system like that since we've already learned similar systems from other games, and we already have had a chance to just focus on the Build aspects of minecraft without serious combat requirements, but new players often have a hard time learning more than one thing at a time, so they will end up choosing which aspect to focus on. In the scenario where enemies are better at fighting and moving, these players will have to focus on learning the movement/combat aspect in order to survive, and the building aspect will fall to the wayside, or at the very least be severely stunted compared to what it would have been if they had focused on building alone.
But the game is still fairly simple, newbies will still learn the techniques when trying to navigate terrain and reach high places, AND the techniques will still be useful, just not the only options.
This honestly comes across too complex to me. Instead of needing to change this, simply allow the doubletap dash/dodge to move the player out of the blast radius, provided the creeper is not directly beside the player. Also allow shields to at least reduce the damage taken from an explosion provided the player is directly facing the creeper as it explodes. These two options would make much more sense for mitigating the damage from creepers and can also be used as an effective strategy against skeletons, all without needing to modify the way the player actually moves around the environment.
The complexity is on the programmer side, not the player side. The point of this is so that if you aggro the creeper it should be more of an equal choice between flee and attack and makes fleeing less of an all or nothing (this gave me an idea, will update OP in a sec). Attacking means less/no damage with the reduced explosion when they take damage mechanic and so does running by getting farther away from the epicenter.(see the OP in a few minutes, i will expand on this)
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Combat in a survival game should be crappy and frantic. Your not Tommy testosterone tits, your just some random guy trying to survive.
Combat is good and relentless and difficult which is good.
Combat is not relentless, it is tedious. Combat is not difficult, just takes a while. Combat is not frantic, just frustrating. These are all opinions though (mine and yours) and opinions aren't terribly useful.
Combat isn't broken, it's just basic. As it isn't what the game is about.
When I started I found exploring and being out at night terrifying, but now I am quite happy to wander around at night. I play on hard, and I find taking on groups of 5-6 enemies with nothing but a stone or steel sword an easy task, unless they are skeletons, who are the only mob I use my arrows against.
I fail to see this, I find the fighting in the game too easy, thats why I want more challenging mobs. Right now, I never feel unsafe running through completely dark mines, and I have never even worn any armour, except for leather, and I made steel pants once, in the first world I ever made.
To put it bluntly, I think this game is far too easy on hard mode, if anything I want the game to be much, much harder.
Alright those last few posts were way too long to read, so if I'm restating something sorry.
I have to agree with the OP (mostly), combat is tedious and like people before me have said, a pain in the ass.
Creepers - Hit, backpedal, hit
Skeletons - Hide behind a wall and hit them as they come around the corner
Zombies- Hit, backpedal, hit
Spider- Hit, backpedal, hit
Slimes- Hit, backpedal, hit
See a pattern (mostly) here?
A simple roll, dodge, or thrust maneuver would add very, very much to the game. Aswell a bit better AI (if possible) or really anything to make enemies more difficult would be a welcome change in my book.
Also, climbing up 2 block ledges is a great idea, and it would definitely not in any way destroy the building aspect.. Think about it. If you walk up to a two block ledge, you can place a block at it and climb up, or you can dig through the cliff to get up. That's boring, time-consuming, and a waste of resources.
Creepers - Hit, backpedal, hit
Skeletons - Hide behind a wall and hit them as they come around the corner
Zombies- Hit, backpedal, hit
Spider- Hit, backpedal, hit
Slimes- Hit, backpedal, hit
For me, it's a little different:
Creepers - Backpedal, is it too close? place a block between it and you and punch it when it tries to jump over, then place more blocks. then dig pit 2 blocks deep. Guide the creeper to fall into it and then punch/sword until it dies.
Skeleton - Strafe it while backpedaling, if you don't have a bow, then curse the lack of shields. build a wall 2 high, try to form a cup that faces it so it can't get around the wall at you. Break lower block of wall and attack legs.
Spiders - Keep a pit at least 2 blocks deep and no more than 1 block wide handy. Backpedal, is it too close? place a block between you and it and punch if it tries to jump over, get back to the pit and drop in, attack the spider from below when it moves over the pit (it wont fall in)
Zombies - are you outside? Jump & place blocks underneath so you're three block high. Inside? if possible use the outside strategy, if not, find high ground or place blocks between you and it and hit when it tries to come over.
@greyacumen
So?
Combat should revolve much more than deforming the landscape to combat enemies who arrive en masse. Infact all of these enemies can be easily killed with the horribly broken game mechanic of jumping up a square and placing another one below you while jumping. The only enemy that doesn't fall prey to this is the skeleton, those buggers jump and shoot arrows at the same time whether you be 5+ or 7+ above them.
So aside from using a broke game mechanics, sidestepping, and lava buckets what else does this game have to offer in the aspects of combat, which becomes crucial at night?
Off topic:
This reminds me of the time Mystify said placing blocks as a shield is an advanced game tactic.
LOL
Seems to me like there's quite a few who doesn't really understand what this game is about.
I love the shield suggestion though :smile.gif:
It seems to me you're not thinking your posts thoroughly. Minecraft's purpose is very open to interpretation. Specially since the game's "theme" has been blasted to hell and back by it's own creator who now wants to place redstone computer chips!
Not only that but to say this game is not very combat heavy is either a product of you holing up in your house at night, mining waaaaaaay too much, or not playing on hard. Because let me tell you this combat is unavoidable unless you run away like a wuss or barricade off your opponents.
Quote from GreyAcumen »
It basically is. It's called bringing your own cover. Using the terrain to your advantage is an age old technique in combat. Why do you feel it isn't?
I never said it's not a valid technique, what I am saying is that it should not SOLELY rely on that. Seriously you're severely hampering this game's potential by limiting it like this. Until we get a better combat system I cannot imagine there being enemies who are smarter than the freaking skeleton. Then again Notch is so stubborn when it comes to things like this and pretty ambiguous. One moment he says he doesn't want to make the game too easy, the other he says it should stay simple and keep the mobs as retarded as old school videogame enemies.
Neither do I think we should rely solely on that, but I think the shield and doubletap dodge move could provide more than enough variety all on their own, and would have the least chance of overshadowing the terrain techniques. This is the concern that I've been raising over the ledge climb and sprinting and doublejump techniques that have also been suggested.
Ultimately I think a lot of the arguments may stem simply from different games as the basis for people's ideas. I personally think that a Zelda-done-FPS combat style would be most suited to the style of game that minecraft is. It already implements the heart lifebar, sword and bow, bombs, a compass, torches, etc.
@GreyAcumen
So you're for a simple roll/dodge and a shield? Oh okay then, I fail to see how ledge grappling and clambering complicates the game, but as long as you see promise on those initial two I'm okay with you.
the reason I dislike the ledge grabbing the most is because it doesn't benefit combat, except for getting away from enemies, but it wouldn't actually be of any better benefit than just jumpblocking which can already be done. Plus I don't think it suits the world style terribly well. It would be like 8-bit mario grabbing onto a ledge in the NES game and pulling himself up onto it.
the reason I dislike the ledge grabbing the most is because it doesn't benefit combat, except for getting away from enemies, but it wouldn't actually be of any better benefit than just jumpblocking which can already be done. Plus I don't think it suits the world style terribly well. It would be like 8-bit mario grabbing onto a ledge in the NES game and pulling himself up onto it.
Ryu Hyabusa did it...
Combat wise, no, no it wouldn't I agree it would just help people to run away from enemies. BUT exploration wise it would still be nice to have because many a time when I have been exploring caves I would've benefited so much from an auto ledge grab instead of falling into an endless chasm. Plus people would then be able to make obstacle courses and the plat forming in this game would improve immensely.
But maybe there should be a limit.
My limit is the following, seriously I would never want these in Minecraft. EVER!
GoW cover system (contemplated it but it would be fairly stupid)
Double jump
Backflips
Wall running
Parry moves that actually counter an attack
Combos
Combo Breakers
Grappling
Assassinations
AutoLock on system
Stealth system that is beyond the whole "you become slightly translucent in reeds" idea
And I think I've covered most of the stuff I BELIEVE would not fit in. But of course bear in mind OPINIONS!
@Abstractor his point was that Minecraft would look very silly with Minecraft guy grappling unto objects and then he used old school Mario as an example of how silly it would look. That's why I responded to him with "Ryu Hyabusa did it"
Now onto the bigger issue, whether or not clambering and holding onto ledges is useful is really up to debate, it could indeed help a player be much more stealthy (think sam fisher or solid snake/raiden), and getting around places much faster, but aside from that I can't see much more to it other than mobility in combat and mostly exploration applications.
It's still a nice maneuver though.
Also yeah that list I made, yup I would never like those, EVER.
Personally I find the current system adequate, but with space for tweaking. Shields would be win; almost a necessity for an Adventure mode since you'd have zero tools to use. Jumping two blocks tho, I'm less down with. A two-meter leap practically straight up seems a little too springy in the feet for me, unless there's at least one mob who could do a 2-block jump as well. I'd rather have a slightly longer jump than a higher jump. The ledge grab idea is cool in that regard for those dramatic escapes when the mobs run off a cliff and you make it (or totally fall and die :biggrin.gif:).
That being said, I understand the other folks, who are probably worried about the "hardcoar" crowd who usually ONLY lust for blood, even blocky cubist blood; not that I'm making that an accusation here. I think the fear is that too much emphasis on combat details will take the game down too many familiar game genre paths; that's a fair concern. As long as the combat additions aren't too up-front compared to the overall game though, I'm thinking they shouldn't really be an issue. Also, I've seen it mentioned that some of the reason for desiring moar combat is to stave off boredom from lack of long-term goals or player direction. This is also something that simply hasn't been added to the game yet to any great degree, but is forthcoming at some future date.
Some revamped combat is all we want. We don't want this to turn into a fighting game, hell no.
We just want a fair fight with all the damned monsters that keep spawning. Right now they're not frightening, they're not challenging, they're really just a royal pain in the ass. Things like not being able to dodge Skeletons' arrows when you're within hitting range and **** like that needs to be ****ing fixed. Or when a creeper lands right on top of you, not being able to roll out of the way is cheap.
No, I'm not bitching that the mobs are too hard. They're too cheap, too boring and too much of a pain in the ass. And I swear that if someone tells me to go play on Peaceful I'll **** in a bucket and pour it over my innocent neighbors.
I don't need a crazy detailed hand-to-hand ****ing Bruce Lee martial arts system, what I want is to actually be able to kill **** with the swords you're supposed to make. I know you can make a bow. That's nice, but it still doesn't make the combat not suck.
On the issue of ledge grabbing, this is also really frustrating.
It's not going to detract from a single damned part of the building, Christ!
What the **** is it, are you guys afraid that people won't need a shelter because they can grab ledges? Or that people won't need to gather resources because they can grab ledges?
Placing a block just to step up a 2 block high ledge is a pain in the ass. It's not challenging, frightening or entertaining, it's a tedious waste of resources.
Personally I'd like to use the building part for building. Being able to pull yourself up one extra block honestly isn't going to change **** aside from making it more fluid.
Ledge grabbing could work like this:
Say you're mid jump, going up. If you're facing a ledge and you're RIGHT ON IT and it's only one block above your feet (a two block tall jump) and you have nothing selected, then your dude will automatically climb over it. I'm a little iffy on the click to grab because I'd be afraid of breaking that block. Maybe holding right click to push up a ledge.
I repeat, being able to push a little bit to get up a two block tall ledge is NOT going to get a single soul out of making a shelter.
Thank you. We're not trying to turn combat into the main facet, we're trying to make it into an entertaining facet like the rest of the game.
For the socially adept miner. It's free, so click it!
Not a red herring, I just didn't bother mentioning it because they serve completely different purposes. Jump blocking lets you quickly move up and nothing else, provided you have the material for it on hand at the time, however it also gets in your way if you want to use the same route again or if you want to go BACK DOWN the way you came. Ladders allow you to go back down and back up multiple times with much greater convenience than jump blocking.
And you continue to treat primary founding principles of the game like they're unimportant. If those features were unimportant, then how the heck has this game gotten so many fans? Why are YOU a fan? Are you telling me that the only reason you chose to play this game was for its rich and detailed battle system? Being able to reshape your world to suit your needs and desires IS the primary feature of the game. I cannot even begin to describe how foolish it is to try to debate that point.
please stop that. I'm allergic to hypocrite and I have to take a shot now to ward off anaphylactic shock. You need to take a look in the mirror before you start accusing anyone else of attacking anything.
Yeah, right, you "forgot" The fact that you immediately followed this post with ANOTHER double post is because you "forgot" again, right?
Fhyve, you've been actively trying to keep your thread from getting derailed by stupidity, so I feel that deserves an in depth look at the things you've mentioned:
One thing I find is that with monsters being so hard to deal with, I tend to focus my building during the daytime, and then focus on cave exploration and mining during night. Monsters are easier to deal with when you can seal off a tunnel as you see an enemy coming for you. Fleeing is possible, but requires you to use the land and your building abilities to slow down enemies so you can get away. But with enemies like the skeletons, fleeing can be pretty difficult without taking a fair amount of damage, and the same is true for trying to use any type of melee attack on them.
This is a fair assessment in what Minecraft's difficulty settings should be trying to accomplish. Easy difficulties should make you feel like the top predator, while hard difficulties make you feel like you're just trying to survive, and normal makes you feel like you can give as good as you take.
This is very true, and it's the primary reason i support the implementation of shields as well as a short burst "dodge" move (this does NOT include double jumps)
It took me a while to figure out what all of this meant, you may want to restructure your ideas into better groups instead of needing to refer to later groupings.
I don't think this should really be the case. Rather than being natural environmental hazards, they become guardians that have been placed there. This is fine for dungeons, but if it carried over to other areas it would only make them seem like dungeons as well.
The idea for the creeper is excellent, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you mean by aggro radius. I would think that in easy mode, you should need to get closer to an enemy before they will take notice and try to attack you, which seems like this should mean that the mobs have a smaller aggro radius. Hard mode should have them with a larger aggro radius so that enemies notice you and come after you much sooner. If you're looking at the tactic of "luring" enemies then attacking an enemy should count as aggroing even if you're outside of their standard range.
No. The problem here is that improving the players movement to be able to jump 2 blocks high, or 2 blocks long will allow them to jump over gaps that just about all enemy mobs would not standardly be able to jump over. This would make it TOO easy to get away from enemies no matter what you had the difficulty set to. If you did want to implement this, you would need to also improve the enemy AI to be able to use these techniques as well. This issue hampers the implementation of sprinting for the same reasons.
What would be a better issue to focus on for movement is to improve the player's ability to "slide" across a block when they are obstructed by that block. So that if a block gets in the way of a player, they don't get stopped completely in their tracks, but will attempt to move parallel to the face of the block until they get past it, at which point they will resume their intended direction.
I really think the range should only extend from Hapless miner to Balance of Miner&Monster Slayer. Minecraft was founded on the "Explore, Gather, Build" aspects of the game, with Build being the primary feature, being able to completely ignore this feature to such a great extent would be like, as I've said before, playing Portal with the ability to fly and move through walls so you didn't need to use the Portal Gun.
I do agree with this. Even zombies are a ***** and a half if you happen to have one sneak up on you or if you're dealing with more than one enemy at a time.
It's not even so much that adequate room is required, but adequate response time is the most important. If you are in the middle of mining, you'll likely have your pickaxe or your torches out. I can't tell how many times I've died that have simply been an issue of not being able to switch to my sword or bow naturally while trying to avoid arrows and pay attention to where I'm retreating to. Just implementing the system where you have to actually left click to select your block/tool, and then being able to use middle click as a "last block/tool used" button would be great.
I agree with this, and have a much more in depth description both for what the ability of a shield would be, as well as how they would be crafted in the middle of THIS POST.
I generally disagree with the idea that you need a more POWERFUL weapon that the Bow. (I have an idea for the less powerful ranged weapon of a Sling in the SAME POST as the shields) The bow needs its firing rate nerfed as it is, but having a range weapon of similar power but different tactics to use it could be acceptable:
Crossbow: Crafting (Workbench) [@] = String
Bolt(x4): Crafting (Workbench)
The Crossbow fires at only half the rate of a bow(once the bows speed is nerfed to be less than "as fast as the player can click the button") and will not travel any farther, however the bolt travels twice as fast as an arrow, does 1.5x damage of an arrow, and knocks the target back twice as far as if they were hit by an arrow.
Having a slower firing rate will put a much greater importance on accuracy, and the expense of needing to use iron and string to craft the crossbow, and 2 iron for every 4 bolts (and not having any bolts dropped by enemies) should make the price high enough that it offsets the potential advantage of using the crossbow.
As I've said, the doubletap to dash I'll accept, though I think it only needs to be able to rapidly move 1 block, but 2 blocks might be acceptable. However there would need to be a cooldown period to keep the player from being able to dodge infinitely and also to prevent using it as a sprinting technique. The jumpblocking technique already can be used as a form of doublejumping that actually supports the primary game mechanic of minecraft, instead of implementing a new one that bypasses the need to use that mechanic.
Sprinting wouldn't need to press C, just doubletap the direction you want to sprint in, same as dash/dodging, but then hold down a movement button. As long as your endurance holds out, you should keep sprinting until you release the movement key. The endurance should be connected to a meter, possibly even the oxygen meter that counts down when you're sprinting, just like it would while you were underwater, and it could even be set so that if you keep sprinting after your oxygen runs out, you'll start taking temporary damage the same as if you were underwater. (though it should be set to simply disable sprinting when you reach 1/2 HP and not let you sprint again until your HP fully recovers) However with this, it should be set so that with both sprinting and being underwater, your Oxygen doesn't instantly regenerate when you stop sprinting or get your head back above water.
Part of the problem i have here is you aren't terribly clear about what you mean by 2 block jump. Do you mean 2 block height or 2 block length? both? I can accept the idea that holding it gets you the higher jump and tapping gets you a shorter jump for a realistic implementation.
Either way, with both jumping and sprinting, if you're going to implement it in the player's abilities, the monsters should be able to do it as well. Where the real kicker of my issue comes is that as the movement system gets more complex, it becomes harder and harder for the AI to properly utilize that movement, but more than that, if the AI DOES manage to effectively utilize the more complex movement system, then new players are at an even WORSE disadvantage as they not only need to learn the building system in order to enjoy the main purpose of the game, but also must learn the movement/combat system as well in order to effectively survive enemy mobs.
This is where I'm coming from when I'm saying that focusing on the combat will reduce the focus on the BUILD portion of Minecraft. Sure, it's easy for we more experienced players to learn a combat system like that since we've already learned similar systems from other games, and we already have had a chance to just focus on the Build aspects of minecraft without serious combat requirements, but new players often have a hard time learning more than one thing at a time, so they will end up choosing which aspect to focus on. In the scenario where enemies are better at fighting and moving, these players will have to focus on learning the movement/combat aspect in order to survive, and the building aspect will fall to the wayside, or at the very least be severely stunted compared to what it would have been if they had focused on building alone.
No, pretty much none of these. The long/tall jump, double jump, and ledge grab all have the issues where they shift the focus of the game from "shape your environment to suit your desires" to "learn how to navigate obstacles" the sprint, and increased walk speed all have the issue where if you can do it, enemies should be able to do it to (you should not be able to just walk away from a hostile enemy, and if you can run, they should be able to run too)
The dash/dodge feature can at least be balanced by having a cooldown period, so that if you used it repeatedly in single direction, your average speed would still come out the same as walking normally.
I agree with the philosophy here, but Creepers serve a specific almost quasi-spiritual function. Many of the things that people hate about the creepers are the exact same thing that makes them so popular.
these balance out. I personally like this just because Creepers are otherwise silent. The "ssss" sound of their fuse being triggered is the only warning you have that they're even around. Just having an extra second or two of warning would greatly improve the ability for an experienced player to survive them.
No. This is just downright nerfing them, and to an extent that they would barely be effective at all. they already don't explode if you kill them while their fuse is running down, but it is possible to have them explode just before you get your swing in i like this idea as well, if you damage them, it should cut a percentage off their total explosive power, though you should not be able to reduce them further than 50% Creepers have 10HP, so each HP = -5% explosive power.This honestly comes across too complex to me. Instead of needing to change this, simply allow the doubletap dash/dodge to move the player out of the blast radius, provided the creeper is not directly beside the player. Also allow shields to at least reduce the damage taken from an explosion provided the player is directly facing the creeper as it explodes. These two options would make much more sense for mitigating the damage from creepers and can also be used as an effective strategy against skeletons, all without needing to modify the way the player actually moves around the environment. That pretty much IS their purpose though. For all intents and purposes Creepers fill the role of "Natural Disaster" within the Minecraft world and basically is clamoring to fit in the ranks with Pyramid Head from Silent Hill and Chainsaw guy from Resident Evil. Sure your ideas might make them more balanced, but it will ultimately ruin what makes them so enjoyed by people.
I don't think it should be removed, but merely reduced a bit.
I generally don't play 3rd person, but yeah this is true.
I'm not even sure how this would be implemented so it looked right, but that would be rather nice to know.
ultimately, Shields, where using them disables left&right click so you must choose between defending and attacking, and doubletap dodge/dash which allows timing to make the difference between completely avoiding damage and not avoiding it at all, are the best and simplest ways to enrich combat. This means that recognizing patterns and timing becomes the primary skill in battle, and being effective enough with these skills can make a person near invincible, and it also means that monsters can be made "harder" simply by making their attack/defend/undefended pattern more random, less telegraphed, and just generally not as easy to follow.
My points come from my experience with adventure games, which in general seems to be more suited to the nature of Minecraft than that of pure fighter games.
YES
DIFFERENT, Pros and cons should balance out, but not be a straight out "better" than bow.
Maybe, but not in most of the ways suggested so far.
It depends on how things balance out, the creeper still needs to retain its "Natural Disaster" level danger factor though.
I've always dreamed of a game that actually improves the intelligence of the AI with stronger difficulty, instead of just making them do and take more damage, but it never happens. The real danger in attempting that, is that there may actually be some exploit in the AI at a harder level of difficulty that actually makes the "harder" enemies easier to deal with when you know how to exploit the weakness in the coding. only messing with the stats is a much more certain method to ensure that enemies will be harder on hard and easier on easy.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
My support for the shield is OVER 9,000%!!!
Although my idea for a shield is to have it be equipped like armor, but it does nothing for protecting damage. What it would do is block projectiles completely, but ONLY if you're facing the projectile when it hits you. (this way they would still be somewhat threatening--kinda pointless to have an attack that could be blocked 100% of the time with a single piece of equipment...)
~Abraham Lincoln
Combat is good and relentless and difficult which is good.
Read my post. The only "Combat maneuver" that I suggest is for the purpose of making movement more fluid (double tap dash). I also believe in starting with the character and not what the character has to kill. I agree that mob AI needs to be changed (I suggest a creeper change... read!) but starting with the basic player mechanics seems more logical to me. Your method of designing the monsters and then the player might work though. What I am suggesting would be incredibly easy to add to the game. I have made a little java fighter that has much more complex movement, double jump WITH continuous variable jump height on both jumps, fast fall, double-tap dash and wall climbing. Notch is a MUCH better programmer than I, he could implement these changes easily. I don't think a shield, dashing and increasing jump height by 1 (simplification) is that hard to program.
I suggest you actually read my post.
(will reply to grey in a moment)
Yea, I was just thinking that if easy were more combat oriented then you would run into more mobs. Sorta ass backwards. I changed the OP though.
Creeper's surprise explode and skeletons already counter this to an extent. More mobs could make this point moot (especially flying ones)
A lot of people would want more combat. I see no point in limiting them. Just as long as that game mode is distanced from what is considered normal minecraft.
That's pretty much what I suggested :tongue.gif:. I changed the OP to make that clearer.
One block would make it worse than walking
I think blockjumping should only be reserved for bigger obstacles and you need one block under you to do it with horizontal momentum. The point is is that it is really slow.
All this makes sense although it seems like we are leaning towards dash.
But the game is still fairly simple, newbies will still learn the techniques when trying to navigate terrain and reach high places, AND the techniques will still be useful, just not the only options.
The complexity is on the programmer side, not the player side. The point of this is so that if you aggro the creeper it should be more of an equal choice between flee and attack and makes fleeing less of an all or nothing (this gave me an idea, will update OP in a sec). Attacking means less/no damage with the reduced explosion when they take damage mechanic and so does running by getting farther away from the epicenter.(see the OP in a few minutes, i will expand on this)
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Combat is not relentless, it is tedious. Combat is not difficult, just takes a while. Combat is not frantic, just frustrating. These are all opinions though (mine and yours) and opinions aren't terribly useful.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56267
When I started I found exploring and being out at night terrifying, but now I am quite happy to wander around at night. I play on hard, and I find taking on groups of 5-6 enemies with nothing but a stone or steel sword an easy task, unless they are skeletons, who are the only mob I use my arrows against.
I fail to see this, I find the fighting in the game too easy, thats why I want more challenging mobs. Right now, I never feel unsafe running through completely dark mines, and I have never even worn any armour, except for leather, and I made steel pants once, in the first world I ever made.
To put it bluntly, I think this game is far too easy on hard mode, if anything I want the game to be much, much harder.
I have to agree with the OP (mostly), combat is tedious and like people before me have said, a pain in the ass.
Creepers - Hit, backpedal, hit
Skeletons - Hide behind a wall and hit them as they come around the corner
Zombies- Hit, backpedal, hit
Spider- Hit, backpedal, hit
Slimes- Hit, backpedal, hit
See a pattern (mostly) here?
A simple roll, dodge, or thrust maneuver would add very, very much to the game. Aswell a bit better AI (if possible) or really anything to make enemies more difficult would be a welcome change in my book.
Also, climbing up 2 block ledges is a great idea, and it would definitely not in any way destroy the building aspect.. Think about it. If you walk up to a two block ledge, you can place a block at it and climb up, or you can dig through the cliff to get up. That's boring, time-consuming, and a waste of resources.
And I like that illustration, Odysseus, exactly what I am trying to describe.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56267
I've made two topics about this, they have all been voted down in the polls I put there.
link to said topics if you guys want to visit them up in a few
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48217&hilit=+clambering
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46491&hilit=+rolling+dodge
For me, it's a little different:
Creepers - Backpedal, is it too close? place a block between it and you and punch it when it tries to jump over, then place more blocks. then dig pit 2 blocks deep. Guide the creeper to fall into it and then punch/sword until it dies.
Skeleton - Strafe it while backpedaling, if you don't have a bow, then curse the lack of shields. build a wall 2 high, try to form a cup that faces it so it can't get around the wall at you. Break lower block of wall and attack legs.
Spiders - Keep a pit at least 2 blocks deep and no more than 1 block wide handy. Backpedal, is it too close? place a block between you and it and punch if it tries to jump over, get back to the pit and drop in, attack the spider from below when it moves over the pit (it wont fall in)
Zombies - are you outside? Jump & place blocks underneath so you're three block high. Inside? if possible use the outside strategy, if not, find high ground or place blocks between you and it and hit when it tries to come over.
Slimes - Don't know yet.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
So?
Combat should revolve much more than deforming the landscape to combat enemies who arrive en masse. Infact all of these enemies can be easily killed with the horribly broken game mechanic of jumping up a square and placing another one below you while jumping. The only enemy that doesn't fall prey to this is the skeleton, those buggers jump and shoot arrows at the same time whether you be 5+ or 7+ above them.
So aside from using a broke game mechanics, sidestepping, and lava buckets what else does this game have to offer in the aspects of combat, which becomes crucial at night?
Off topic:
This reminds me of the time Mystify said placing blocks as a shield is an advanced game tactic.
LOL
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
It seems to me you're not thinking your posts thoroughly. Minecraft's purpose is very open to interpretation. Specially since the game's "theme" has been blasted to hell and back by it's own creator who now wants to place redstone computer chips!
Not only that but to say this game is not very combat heavy is either a product of you holing up in your house at night, mining waaaaaaay too much, or not playing on hard. Because let me tell you this combat is unavoidable unless you run away like a wuss or barricade off your opponents.
I never said it's not a valid technique, what I am saying is that it should not SOLELY rely on that. Seriously you're severely hampering this game's potential by limiting it like this. Until we get a better combat system I cannot imagine there being enemies who are smarter than the freaking skeleton. Then again Notch is so stubborn when it comes to things like this and pretty ambiguous. One moment he says he doesn't want to make the game too easy, the other he says it should stay simple and keep the mobs as retarded as old school videogame enemies.
Ultimately I think a lot of the arguments may stem simply from different games as the basis for people's ideas. I personally think that a Zelda-done-FPS combat style would be most suited to the style of game that minecraft is. It already implements the heart lifebar, sword and bow, bombs, a compass, torches, etc.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
So you're for a simple roll/dodge and a shield? Oh okay then, I fail to see how ledge grappling and clambering complicates the game, but as long as you see promise on those initial two I'm okay with you.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Ryu Hyabusa did it...
Combat wise, no, no it wouldn't I agree it would just help people to run away from enemies. BUT exploration wise it would still be nice to have because many a time when I have been exploring caves I would've benefited so much from an auto ledge grab instead of falling into an endless chasm. Plus people would then be able to make obstacle courses and the plat forming in this game would improve immensely.
But maybe there should be a limit.
My limit is the following, seriously I would never want these in Minecraft. EVER!
GoW cover system (contemplated it but it would be fairly stupid)
Double jump
Backflips
Wall running
Parry moves that actually counter an attack
Combos
Combo Breakers
Grappling
Assassinations
AutoLock on system
Stealth system that is beyond the whole "you become slightly translucent in reeds" idea
And I think I've covered most of the stuff I BELIEVE would not fit in. But of course bear in mind OPINIONS!
Now onto the bigger issue, whether or not clambering and holding onto ledges is useful is really up to debate, it could indeed help a player be much more stealthy (think sam fisher or solid snake/raiden), and getting around places much faster, but aside from that I can't see much more to it other than mobility in combat and mostly exploration applications.
It's still a nice maneuver though.
Also yeah that list I made, yup I would never like those, EVER.