CardOrder does highlight a real issue though; the necessity for having sticks reduces the usefulness of 2x2 tools significantly.
This could be redressed by making the toolbench harder to make, or making sticks easier to come by (random drops from trees, similar to saplings perhaps--or better still, make a sapling distill down to one or two sticks); or coming up with an alternative to sticks in the 2x2 tools, which I can't think of a truly elegant implementation for off of the top of my head.
Yes, but needing to make an item to accomplish a specific task makes sense, needing to make an item to be able to accomplish anything AT ALL doesn't. The game starts the player off with a 2x2 crafting grid, it doesn't make sense that there is no real way to explore the use of that until after you go up to the next crafting level. It would be like starting out in a room on the first floor of a building, and then the only way out of that room is a ladder up to the next floor, and then from the second floor you can take stairs down to the rest of the building's first floor.
To take this analogy further, the help/information desk is generally always on the first floor of a building, putting it on the second floor would make it hard for someone, who doesn't already know where they are, to find it. Likewise you should be able to get into the key game mechanics of Minecraft (generally mining, building and crafting tools to survive) from the very beginning..
Effectively, what this would do is allow the workbench to be a Tier 2 gateway item, but still allow players to manage explore basic game mechanics on Tier 1 items/tools, but you'd still need the workbench to get the more advanced game mechanics, like Minecarts, TNT, Boats, Ladders, Doors and other mechanisms.
It's the same reasoning that seems to motivate the people constantly pressing for 4x4 and 5x5 or even 6x6 grid crafting; that there should be a certain degree of escalation to the game's complexity. I simply attack it from a different angle, saying that there should have already been a simpler initial degree of complexity instead of trying to add further layers of complexity on top of what already exists.
Quote from Penumbra2000 »
CardOrder does highlight a real issue though; the necessity for having sticks reduces the usefulness of 2x2 tools significantly.
I don't think this is entirely true, but the possibilities of your next thought intrigue me.
This could be redressed by making the toolbench harder to make, or making sticks easier to come by (random drops from trees, similar to saplings perhaps--or better still, make a sapling distill down to one or two sticks); or coming up with an alternative to sticks in the 2x2 tools, which I can't think of a truly elegant implementation for off of the top of my head.
I can think of a few possibilities already. Namely, where 2 wood can be crafted into 4 sticks, 2 saplings could be crafted into 2 sticks. (my idea for topiary blocks would be altered to require 4 saplings and would craft 4 topiary blocks) This could allow the possibility of not needing to break trees to create the first tools, which would allow trees to become something that cannot be broken, or at least wont give drops when broken, by hand, thus elevating the axe to be as important as the pickaxe (and therefor worth the equivalent expense, and also worth making a recipe for a hand tool variant: Hatchet)
Most of the item ideas are good but if this feature would be added i'd rather make a workbench to get the "better version" of the item.
That's actually exactly the point.
Grey and I went over the balancing of these items for that explicit reason. These items CAN NOT outpower the originals in any way or else they obsolete them.
So the fact that you would rather use the normal items once you can build a workbench means he and I didn't go through all that trouble for nothing.
And as Grey has stated, the explicit point of these suggestions is to get more use out of the "Pre-workbench" game.
As for the "stick" problem.
I don't really see it as a problem. For every stick you need with the 2x2s you need two for the workbench version.
So now you need 2 logs to build 1 pick (assuming you didn't carry a workbench with you) while you only need 1/16th a log to build the Handpick.
So put simply, if you're building the Workbench and aren't carrying one with you, you can build 4 picks (let's say stone) with 2 Wood blocks.
But using the 2x2s you can build 16 HandPicks (stone again) with just ONE Wood block.
And no, this actually doesn't break the usefulness of the Pickax, it just makes it so that 2x2 will very likely be a "better" option UP TILL Iron. Where the Pickax will launch into the lead.
To avoid confusion, I'll sum up Sabata's point: if you don't already have a crafting bench with you, and have only 1 log with you, then you can't craft a workbench AND still have wood to craft a pickaxe with.
If you have 2 Logs, you can craft a workbench out of one, and the other can go towards crafting up to 4 Pickaxes, BUT with Hand Picks available, you don't need the Workbench, so both can go towards Hand Picks and 16 Hand Picks.
I'm currently working on a new thread with the idea of making saplings craftable into sticks, and sticks craftable into wood, which would allow Trees to be modified so they only dropped Logs when the hatchet or axe is used on them. Players would likely still prefer the MUCH faster method of gathering wood from logs, rather than needing to break leaves and gather saplings, but this would also allow excess saplings to go towards crafting more sticks and wood.
To avoid confusion, I'll sum up Sabata's point: if you don't already have a crafting bench with you, and have only 1 log with you, then you can't craft a workbench AND still have wood to craft a pickaxe with.
If you have 2 Logs, you can craft a workbench out of one, and the other can go towards crafting up to 4 Pickaxes, BUT with Hand Picks available, you don't need the Workbench, so both can go towards Hand Picks and 32 Hand Picks.
Fixed. In the numbers from my prior post I tried to minimize Wood block usage.
If you just had 2 Wood blocks on you, your options are either 4 Stone Pickaxes (building the workbench) or 32 Stone Handpicks.
Both of these numbers go down if you don't have some Stone on you already.
I've noticed with the grill, the grill is much cheaper and easier to cook meat with. You have no need to worry about wasting fuel, and one coal block can form 4 torches which can cook 16 pork. Currently you have to work to get 7 pork out of one coal block.
I've noticed with the grill, the grill is much cheaper and easier to cook meat with. You have no need to worry about wasting fuel, and one coal block can form 4 torches which can cook 16 pork. Currently you have to work to get 7 pork out of one coal block.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll check my figures again and rebalance it properly.(I think I had done my figures on a mistaken idea of 1coal+1stick = 1 torch) The grill is SUPPOSED to be less efficient for cooking than a efficiently tended furnace, but not need to be constantly attended.
Yes, I did the figures again, and you were right. Grills now require 2 cobblestone to make, 1 torch, and each can only cook a single piece of meat. Once a Grill has been used it will only drop a Cobblestone block when broken.
yes to some basic tools although I'm thinking more along the lines of this http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/images/flintknappinghisthabilissmall.jpg
Yes to signs, they should be cheaper and easier to make
I'm not sure about bombs
not sure about small shields
placing torches at distance sounds good
for cooking meat on the go I just keep a furnace in my pocket
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Well, after enjoying Minecraft for a long time I finally broke down and contributed back: exactly one adventure map. TRY IT NOW! YAY! Fall of Kingdoms
Lol, this is minecraft, we don't need to go that primitive.
Yes to signs, they should be cheaper and easier to make
Keep in mind, markers aren't signs and can't have words written on them. They only show direction.
I'm not sure about bombs
not sure about small shields
Fair enough. I like the idea of some small explosive power that can be used on the fly though, same for defense. If my regular shield breaks, it'd be nice to be able to whip something up until i can craft a full one.
placing torches at distance sounds good
I don't think ANYONE has objected to that idea yet.
for cooking meat on the go I just keep a furnace in my pocket
The idea with the grill is they don't require constant attendance, you can just whip 4 of them up and have 4 pieces of meat cooking at once, leave them unattended and come back and collect the meat at your own convenience.
I dont think you guys are understanding what I was trying to say...
If I begin a game and I get 1 log I have the choice between getting a workbench or Handpicks.
Of course I would take hjand Picks BUT seeing that I can easily get more logs I would just make a workbench.
First of all I need a workbench later on anyway.
Second, if I'd get Hand Picks I would get hundreds which I wouldnt really use up since they last just as long as the normal Pickaxes. Plus they have lower speed.
If I would decide to make Pickaxes I would make 1 wooden one then mine sopme stone with it and make stone Pickaxes with the stone I got. Of course I would do the same thing with Hand Picks (first get a wooden then make stone)
Lets see:
If I would get 10 Logs (which wouldnt take me long at all)
So 10 Logs = 40 Wood
for the wooden tool with both Pickaxe and Hand Picks I need 3 wood (but since I cant do anywthing with 1 wood im just gonna say 4)
so you only have 36 wood
Then minus 4 for the work bench:
---Hand Pick: 36 wood---
---Pickaxe: 32 Wood---
then you make sticks:
---Hand Picks: 72 Sticks
---Pickaxe: 64 Sticks
then you use sticks to make the 2 wooden Tools with which your gonna mine stone with which you can make stone tools:
---Hand Picks: 70 Sticks---
---Pickaxe: 60 Sticks---
[[[Note]]]
So lets say you git enough stone to make stone tools with every stick you have:
---Hand Picks: 70 Stone Hand Picks---
---Pickaxe: 30 Stone Pickaxes---
Now the question is what wpuld you take?
At first the 70 Handpicks seem more resenable BUT do you really need 70 Handpicks?
30 Pickaxes are already way to much (kinda)
With 70 Handpicks you will mine more then double the blocks then with 30 Pickaxes...
But then again until you have used up 30 Pickaxes you'll probably have wood anyways.
And btw you'll mine faster with Pickaxes.
So yea I would make pickaxes not Hand Picks because not only will I mine faster but Pickaxes are really cheap anyways!
I just dont think we need an even cheaper tool...
This all would of course change if the workbench would'nt be accesible so fast (like someone suggested).
THEN those things would actually have use.
All of this assumes that you know to make the workbench to start off with. In order to figure out how to make the workbench, I'm betting you either looked it up in the minecraft wiki, or you stumbled on it because it's pretty much the ONLY functional item you start off able to create. If new players had access to the smaller tools, the workbench could end up being something they don't figure out right away.
Another possible way of balancing could be to make it so the workbench only drops a wood block or some sticks when broken, instead of dropping a workbench, the same way a Boat does. This would make Workbenches less portable and reusable, still just as useful for fixed locations, but much less convenient for being used while traveling.
Actually, my initial impression of crafting was that you only needed to mix the right materials, and didn't realize that :wood:x4 was different than
and while that might be easier than the recipe for the Pickaxe, the recipe for the dagger and trowel could be easier still which is what actually gets them started on the general idea of crafting.
Lol, this is minecraft, we don't need to go that primitive.
The main purpose I see for small, basic tools is to gather resources like stone or coal before you are able or committed to making real tools, other than that they don't really serve a major purpose.
http://factoidz.com/images/user/stone_ax_digging_cutting(1).jpg
here's a better picture of what I was getting at, this is an ancient hand axe, it's a sharpened rock held in the palm of the hand and was used for cutting trees, digging, and I presume in this game it could also be used for mining.
the only reason we really need a workbench early on is that we can't get stone by punching it with our fists, all we really need is something to change that.
Quote from GreyAcumen »
Keep in mind, markers aren't signs and can't have words written on them. They only show direction.
If signs were cheaper or at least stackable it would be nicer to write my own directions, otherwise I tend to use torches
Quote from GreyAcumen »
Fair enough. I like the idea of some small explosive power that can be used on the fly though, same for defense. If my regular shield breaks, it'd be nice to be able to whip something up until i can craft a full one.
still not sure about adding them as weapons but smaller explosives would be a pretty good idea, currently it's a tad difficult to get away from full tnt blocks without taking damage.
If shields are added and yours does break in combat I think that it might be more interesting to stick with the mechanic of run away as fast as you can.
Quote from GreyAcumen »
The idea with the grill is they don't require constant attendance, you can just whip 4 of them up and have 4 pieces of meat cooking at once, leave them unattended and come back and collect the meat at your own convenience.
That would be helpful, although it might be better if the furnace were modified to cook more meat at a time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Well, after enjoying Minecraft for a long time I finally broke down and contributed back: exactly one adventure map. TRY IT NOW! YAY! Fall of Kingdoms
Sticks have a high chance of occurring before the workbench, and from there you're banking on them not experimenting now with the sticks and boxes over continuing with the boxes alone.
And with 2 possible recipes (knife and trowel), it's more likely that if they find one they'll try to find more. Which would lead to the other hand tools.
Simply put, you're banking on:
[] []
or []
[]
or
[] []
over [] []
and
[]
[]
And after that you're banking MORE on that they DON'T build sticks and just continue with Boxes.
I have an idea for a 2x2! a small backpack! If Notch ever adds more armour slots (such as a back for backpacks/cloaks/what-have-you) then it would add an extra row of inventory space. (Sure it's been suggested before, but not like this! I think...)
The backpack would be lost for good if you die with it on and would require remaking if you wanted your extra row back again. It could also be set down like a but with half the inventory space of a single :chestfront:. It could NOT be enlarged like the :chestfront:, but could be recovered like one.
It'd require 4 leather in a
pattern = leather
I imagine that I'd use this as a way of preserving some of my crap in case I feared death before heading off to take down a dungeon or before securing passage over/around a pit of lava. Just lemme know what you think.
This could be redressed by making the toolbench harder to make, or making sticks easier to come by (random drops from trees, similar to saplings perhaps--or better still, make a sapling distill down to one or two sticks); or coming up with an alternative to sticks in the 2x2 tools, which I can't think of a truly elegant implementation for off of the top of my head.
To take this analogy further, the help/information desk is generally always on the first floor of a building, putting it on the second floor would make it hard for someone, who doesn't already know where they are, to find it. Likewise you should be able to get into the key game mechanics of Minecraft (generally mining, building and crafting tools to survive) from the very beginning..
Effectively, what this would do is allow the workbench to be a Tier 2 gateway item, but still allow players to manage explore basic game mechanics on Tier 1 items/tools, but you'd still need the workbench to get the more advanced game mechanics, like Minecarts, TNT, Boats, Ladders, Doors and other mechanisms.
It's the same reasoning that seems to motivate the people constantly pressing for 4x4 and 5x5 or even 6x6 grid crafting; that there should be a certain degree of escalation to the game's complexity. I simply attack it from a different angle, saying that there should have already been a simpler initial degree of complexity instead of trying to add further layers of complexity on top of what already exists.
I don't think this is entirely true, but the possibilities of your next thought intrigue me.
I can think of a few possibilities already. Namely, where 2 wood can be crafted into 4 sticks, 2 saplings could be crafted into 2 sticks. (my idea for topiary blocks would be altered to require 4 saplings and would craft 4 topiary blocks) This could allow the possibility of not needing to break trees to create the first tools, which would allow trees to become something that cannot be broken, or at least wont give drops when broken, by hand, thus elevating the axe to be as important as the pickaxe (and therefor worth the equivalent expense, and also worth making a recipe for a hand tool variant: Hatchet)
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
That's actually exactly the point.
Grey and I went over the balancing of these items for that explicit reason. These items CAN NOT outpower the originals in any way or else they obsolete them.
So the fact that you would rather use the normal items once you can build a workbench means he and I didn't go through all that trouble for nothing.
And as Grey has stated, the explicit point of these suggestions is to get more use out of the "Pre-workbench" game.
As for the "stick" problem.
I don't really see it as a problem. For every stick you need with the 2x2s you need two for the workbench version.
So now you need 2 logs to build 1 pick (assuming you didn't carry a workbench with you) while you only need 1/16th a log to build the Handpick.
So put simply, if you're building the Workbench and aren't carrying one with you, you can build 4 picks (let's say stone) with 2 Wood blocks.
But using the 2x2s you can build 16 HandPicks (stone again) with just ONE Wood block.
And no, this actually doesn't break the usefulness of the Pickax, it just makes it so that 2x2 will very likely be a "better" option UP TILL Iron. Where the Pickax will launch into the lead.
If you have 2 Logs, you can craft a workbench out of one, and the other can go towards crafting up to 4 Pickaxes, BUT with Hand Picks available, you don't need the Workbench, so both can go towards Hand Picks and 16 Hand Picks.
I'm currently working on a new thread with the idea of making saplings craftable into sticks, and sticks craftable into wood, which would allow Trees to be modified so they only dropped Logs when the hatchet or axe is used on them. Players would likely still prefer the MUCH faster method of gathering wood from logs, rather than needing to break leaves and gather saplings, but this would also allow excess saplings to go towards crafting more sticks and wood.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Fixed. In the numbers from my prior post I tried to minimize Wood block usage.
If you just had 2 Wood blocks on you, your options are either 4 Stone Pickaxes (building the workbench) or 32 Stone Handpicks.
Both of these numbers go down if you don't have some Stone on you already.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll check my figures again and rebalance it properly.(I think I had done my figures on a mistaken idea of 1coal+1stick = 1 torch) The grill is SUPPOSED to be less efficient for cooking than a efficiently tended furnace, but not need to be constantly attended.
Yes, I did the figures again, and you were right. Grills now require 2 cobblestone to make, 1 torch, and each can only cook a single piece of meat. Once a Grill has been used it will only drop a Cobblestone block when broken.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Ugh, I could have sworn it was 1 wood to 4 box 1 box to 4 stick (I forgot about stacking them).
I've been wracking my brain over other work, so minecraft hasn't been top priority.
Yes to signs, they should be cheaper and easier to make
I'm not sure about bombs
not sure about small shields
placing torches at distance sounds good
for cooking meat on the go I just keep a furnace in my pocket
Keep in mind, markers aren't signs and can't have words written on them. They only show direction.
Fair enough. I like the idea of some small explosive power that can be used on the fly though, same for defense. If my regular shield breaks, it'd be nice to be able to whip something up until i can craft a full one.
I don't think ANYONE has objected to that idea yet.
The idea with the grill is they don't require constant attendance, you can just whip 4 of them up and have 4 pieces of meat cooking at once, leave them unattended and come back and collect the meat at your own convenience.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
If I begin a game and I get 1 log I have the choice between getting a workbench or Handpicks.
Of course I would take hjand Picks BUT seeing that I can easily get more logs I would just make a workbench.
First of all I need a workbench later on anyway.
Second, if I'd get Hand Picks I would get hundreds which I wouldnt really use up since they last just as long as the normal Pickaxes. Plus they have lower speed.
If I would decide to make Pickaxes I would make 1 wooden one then mine sopme stone with it and make stone Pickaxes with the stone I got. Of course I would do the same thing with Hand Picks (first get a wooden then make stone)
Lets see:
If I would get 10 Logs (which wouldnt take me long at all)
So 10 Logs = 40 Wood
for the wooden tool with both Pickaxe and Hand Picks I need 3 wood (but since I cant do anywthing with 1 wood im just gonna say 4)
so you only have 36 wood
Then minus 4 for the work bench:
---Hand Pick: 36 wood---
---Pickaxe: 32 Wood---
then you make sticks:
---Hand Picks: 72 Sticks
---Pickaxe: 64 Sticks
then you use sticks to make the 2 wooden Tools with which your gonna mine stone with which you can make stone tools:
---Hand Picks: 70 Sticks---
---Pickaxe: 60 Sticks---
[[[Note]]]
So lets say you git enough stone to make stone tools with every stick you have:
---Hand Picks: 70 Stone Hand Picks---
---Pickaxe: 30 Stone Pickaxes---
Now the question is what wpuld you take?
At first the 70 Handpicks seem more resenable BUT do you really need 70 Handpicks?
30 Pickaxes are already way to much (kinda)
With 70 Handpicks you will mine more then double the blocks then with 30 Pickaxes...
But then again until you have used up 30 Pickaxes you'll probably have wood anyways.
And btw you'll mine faster with Pickaxes.
So yea I would make pickaxes not Hand Picks because not only will I mine faster but Pickaxes are really cheap anyways!
I just dont think we need an even cheaper tool...
This all would of course change if the workbench would'nt be accesible so fast (like someone suggested).
THEN those things would actually have use.
Another possible way of balancing could be to make it so the workbench only drops a wood block or some sticks when broken, instead of dropping a workbench, the same way a Boat does. This would make Workbenches less portable and reusable, still just as useful for fixed locations, but much less convenient for being used while traveling.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
How would know how to make a Handpick?
How would you even know that you "mix" items in that grid to make new ones? :/
And I think its easier finding out:
Then:
and while that might be easier than the recipe for the Pickaxe, the recipe for the dagger and trowel could be easier still which is what actually gets them started on the general idea of crafting.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
The main purpose I see for small, basic tools is to gather resources like stone or coal before you are able or committed to making real tools, other than that they don't really serve a major purpose.
http://factoidz.com/images/user/stone_ax_digging_cutting(1).jpg
here's a better picture of what I was getting at, this is an ancient hand axe, it's a sharpened rock held in the palm of the hand and was used for cutting trees, digging, and I presume in this game it could also be used for mining.
the only reason we really need a workbench early on is that we can't get stone by punching it with our fists, all we really need is something to change that.
If signs were cheaper or at least stackable it would be nicer to write my own directions, otherwise I tend to use torches
still not sure about adding them as weapons but smaller explosives would be a pretty good idea, currently it's a tad difficult to get away from full tnt blocks without taking damage.
If shields are added and yours does break in combat I think that it might be more interesting to stick with the mechanic of run away as fast as you can.
That would be helpful, although it might be better if the furnace were modified to cook more meat at a time.
Sticks have a high chance of occurring before the workbench, and from there you're banking on them not experimenting now with the sticks and boxes over continuing with the boxes alone.
And with 2 possible recipes (knife and trowel), it's more likely that if they find one they'll try to find more. Which would lead to the other hand tools.
Simply put, you're banking on:
[] []
or
[]
or
[] []
over
and
[]
[]
And after that you're banking MORE on that they DON'T build sticks and just continue with Boxes.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
The backpack would be lost for good if you die with it on and would require remaking if you wanted your extra row back again. It could also be set down like a
It'd require 4 leather in a
pattern
I imagine that I'd use this as a way of preserving some of my crap in case I feared death before heading off to take down a dungeon or before securing passage over/around a pit of lava. Just lemme know what you think.