Simple Tools that aren't as effective or efficient as their full size variety will never be able to reduce the usefulness of a crafting table, as it covers the furnace (which covers anything made from iron, which a lot of the most useful things are made from) Chests, Ladders, Doors, Boats, Minecarts, Tracks, Helmets, Chestplates, Leggings, Boots, Bow & Arrows, Bucket, Compass, Bread, Stew, Signs, & Pressure Plates.
Right now the crafting table isn't just "useful" it's impossible to play the game without, reducing its overall usefulness isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Quote from sabata2 »
That's what OP and I have gone through a hole bunch of this topic for.
I balance games for a living so what he's currently at is actually quite good.
Your vote of confidence is appreciated. Have you had a chance to check the recent additions I've made to the list?
1. It is possible that hand tools are kind of obsolete because it only takes 1 wood block to make a crafting table and then 1 additional stick to make the full sized tool. The only instances when I could imagine a player using these tools is when they are deep under ground with only 1 stick remaining. When you look at how often it would be better to use these tools than their all around better counterparts, it doesn't seem like a good use of implementation time.
1.A. Maybe if you thought of some other tools that had unique uses that would be better. I DO like the knife idea, though, and maybe something different like a mallet would be cool.
2.Dynamite/powder block controls: It makes more sense to place the charges with right click and 'fire' them with left click. In other words, placing the powder bomb would be with right click, throwing would be left click, placing the dynamite (unlit until punched) would be right click, and throwing the dynamite (lit) would be left click.
3. Shields are another topic all together, maybe you should put a link instead of a quote.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You are totally thinking about this signature right now. Read a book.
It's about a week old now. When I originally posted that, it was still one of the most recent suggestions up there. The link is effectively out of date now.
Quote from sumguy720 »
Really cool ideas, I have some issues though!
1. It is possible that hand tools are kind of obsolete because it only takes 1 wood block to make a crafting table and then 1 additional stick to make the full sized tool. The only instances when I could imagine a player using these tools is when they are deep under ground with only 1 stick remaining. When you look at how often it would be better to use these tools than their all around better counterparts, it doesn't seem like a good use of implementation time.
1.A. Maybe if you thought of some other tools that had unique uses that would be better. I DO like the knife idea, though, and maybe something different like a mallet would be cool.
2.Dynamite/powder block controls: It makes more sense to place the charges with right click and 'fire' them with left click. In other words, placing the powder bomb would be with right click, throwing would be left click, placing the dynamite (unlit until punched) would be right click, and throwing the dynamite (lit) would be left click.
3. Shields are another topic all together, maybe you should put a link instead of a quote.
First of all, thanks for replying. It helps keep the thread from getting buried, and generally lets me clarify and refine the ideas so they can be understood easily and are balanced as much as possible.
1) The handcrafted tools are meant to be a little obsolete for the specific purpose of not replacing the full versions. If you just carry a stack of sticks and coal, you can use those sticks to craft torches, which you'll need for spelunking anyway, but then you can also use them to craft any of the hand tools if you happened to need them. The other function is helping new players learn the crafting grid without having to specifically take them through the process.
2) Possibly, but typically items work so that right click is their special function and left click still can bash blocks no matter what you're holding. I don't want to create something that's going to not follow that system unless absolutely necessary.
3) I wanted to make sure people understood the function of the Small Shields, which are dependent on both the function and the crafting recipe that I have for the Full Shields, and the thread that I suggested the Full Shields in is a couple pages into it, with a bunch of completely different ideas for how shields should work and be crafted on all the other pages. The quote is to cut down on the inevitable confusion.
Just wanted to jump in and say I really like the hand tools idea. Changing the crafting formula for big swords is interesting and might have some merit, to differentiate it from tools both in large and small versions. I was initially opposed but I'm coming around.
I think the only limitation that needs to be applied to make hand tools less valuable than full sized tools is time to cut, which I believe is already built in there. I feel like durability should be the same, as in real life it would be quite similar, if not better. I like the elegance of having each material be equivalent to the effectiveness of the next material down.
Allowing right-click throwing of knives is neat, might be useful to carry that over to swords, but it has a serious drawback--accidentally throwing your weapon. Making them stackable would interfere with the current display mechanism for wearing, although that wouldn't be that hard to fix--just attribute the wear level to the top item in the stack; he probably wouldn't even have to change the object record. I think I'm on side for knives but not behind throwability, much though that would be fun. Additionally, the kind of knife that is useful for throwing is different from the knife that is useful for hand-wielding, so I could concieve of a separate formula for throwing knives, to implement a hand-craftable version of the projectile weapon (horizontal stick + material?)
Small and large shields are awesome, I think they should be equippable as an equipment slot. I also kind of think torches/lanterns should be equippable in the same slot, but that's another thread.
I'm not sure about the markers. I like having markers but I think the directionality mechanism is a bit iffy. I would prefer having to put them on the side of a block, similar to a torch, to give them a direction, because the mechanism is already in place. Alternately, and I think this would be useful in numerous situations, you could make object directionality depend on player facing (as I think you recommended?), for all directional objects (stairs, forges, track, redstone, etc).
Just wanted to jump in and say I really like the hand tools idea. Changing the crafting formula for big swords is interesting and might have some merit, to differentiate it from tools both in large and small versions. I was initially opposed but I'm coming around.
Glad you like it.
I think the only limitation that needs to be applied to make hand tools less valuable than full sized tools is time to cut, which I believe is already built in there. I feel like durability should be the same, as in real life it would be quite similar, if not better. I like the elegance of having each material be equivalent to the effectiveness of the next material down.
You do realize that when I've been talking about hand tools being equivalent to the material the next grade down, that IS reduced durability that I'm referring to, right? Part of the logic behind them being less durable is because you're crafting them without a workbench and thus essentially making them in your lap, thus not made as well as ones crafted on a workbench. Theoretically, it might be possible to differentiate between crafting on the workbench gives you a more durable version than a hand tool crafted in the 2x2 grid.
Allowing right-click throwing of knives is neat, might be useful to carry that over to swords, but it has a serious drawback--accidentally throwing your weapon. Making them stackable would interfere with the current display mechanism for wearing, although that wouldn't be that hard to fix--just attribute the wear level to the top item in the stack; he probably wouldn't even have to change the object record.
The problem with that idea is what if you wear the top knife in a stack down to 50%, throw it, then wear the next knife down to 75%, and then pick up the knife you originally threw?
I think I'm on side for knives but not behind throwability, much though that would be fun. Additionally, the kind of knife that is useful for throwing is different from the knife that is useful for hand-wielding, so I could concieve of a separate formula for throwing knives, to implement a hand-craftable version of the projectile weapon (horizontal stick + material?)
I had already seriously considered this option, but there were a few things bothering me:
1) There are knives that can be used both ways
2) If you hold a stack of arrows in your hand an punch, you don't do extra damage. If you hold a stack of diamond throwing daggers in your hand and punch, do you really think people wouldn't get frustrated with the fact that they're still doing regular punching damage even though they're holding a diamond dagger?
3) Unless you're using cobblestone daggers only, which doesn't even do as much damage as an arrow, crafting them would get seriously expensive and wouldn't be worth the cost for the level of damage being done.
Small and large shields are awesome, I think they should be equippable as an equipment slot. I also kind of think torches/lanterns should be equippable in the same slot, but that's another thread.
That is the way that my idea for shields is designed.
I'm not sure about the markers. I like having markers but I think the directionality mechanism is a bit iffy. I would prefer having to put them on the side of a block, similar to a torch, to give them a direction, because the mechanism is already in place. Alternately, and I think this would be useful in numerous situations, you could make object directionality depend on player facing (as I think you recommended?), for all directional objects (stairs, forges, track, redstone, etc).
Have you ever crafted and place a sign? I've never had a case where it wasn't facing me properly when I placed it. Essentially, the same script could be applied to the directional markers except instead of facing you, they would point away/ahead of you.
Okay, I've got new recipes, though I can't promise they're the most original ideas ever made. With this, I think I'm going to change the title to reflect the greater focus on the 2x2 crafting than on the hand tools.
Boomerang: Crafting _ _ _ [] _ [] _ [] _ []
Yes, that's right, you can already make your avatar look like Link, you've got the sword, you've got torches, bow, explosives, and I've already suggested Shields and what are essentially Light Arrows, so why not just go whole hog and throw in boomerangs?
Aim with Mouse, right click to throw. When thrown, the boomerang will fly straight out and then return to the player. If it hits a mob, it will knock them back similar to a snowball, and if it hits any items laying on the ground it will pick them up and bring them back to the player. Boomerangs can also be used to knock off torches and other objects that only require 1 hit to break. A Wooden Boomerang has a range about twice that of a melee attack, Gold, Iron, and Diamond are 3x, 4x, and 5x melee range respectively. Durability is based on the material used at the same rate as Hand Tools, and each throw that results in a mob or item being hit by the boomerang will result in 1 point of durability loss.
(inspired by Nitramite) Topiary Blocks(x4): Crafting = Sapling
The player has the option of taking any sapling they find and, instead of planting it to grow a new tree, may directly craft it into 4 Topiary Blocks. Topiary Blocks look exactly like regular Leaf Blocks except they wont disappear when disconnected from a Trunk or Ground. This is particularly useful for building large trees and tree houses, or disguising forges, work benches and chests as topiary pieces.
I'm not sure how this will work in terms of adding these to the poll. I think Boomerang could be tucked into the "Hand Tools" category, and Topiary Blocks will get tucked in with the Grill, since it's another idea that was inspired by someone else.
if that's how you think you should handle boomerangs (and it sounds like a decent method for something that can't deal damage) I'd change the Wooden formula to: []
if that's how you think you should handle boomerangs (and it sounds like a decent method for something that can't deal damage) I'd change the Wooden formula to: []
Just to keep the "material placement" consistent.
Cool, it's always nice to get the Sabata seal of approval.
I had considered just dropping the wooden boomerang entirely, but then I realized that makes no sense at all since you're more likely to get a wooden boomerang than an iron, gold or diamond one. I had been considering for there to be a stun effect, but realized that for something that could be crafted so cheaply and on the fly, just being able to pick up items from a distance and knock enemies back repeatedly would be adequately powerful on its own.
To briefly reply to your earlier reply to my earlier reply:
* I think I still prefer having hand tools be reduced in working time over durability. I don't think we can draw a very strong real-life reference based on crafting quality, as one couldn't really build iron or diamond variants of tools without a workbench; but I intuitively feel like they should have at least increased time to cut, if not both increased time to cut and decreased durability.
* I think the boomerangs idea is decent; a wider profusion of possible tools to build would be interesting and would add significantly to player individuality, which I think will be a significant proportion of the draw to the game consider its open endedness.
Ok I got one question. I dont know it if has been asked before but I dont want to read 5 pages^^
Why cant you just make a workbench?
I mean you only need 4 wood/ 1 log for it :/
allowing them to be used as temporary substitutes until the workbench and/or more materials can be obtained.
To even make an item you need a stick which requires you to get a piece of log anyways...
Most of the item ideas are good but if this feature would be added i'd rather make a workbench to get the "better version" of the item.
Example:
If I would be on an exploration and run out of pickaxes I would rather get myself 1 log to make a workbench then make a weaker version of the pickaxe...
The "new" items you added are good, exept those who are just a weaker version of the current items...
To make an item, you need a stick, yes, but just because you have sticks doesn't guarantee that you still have wood, only that you have had it at some point. Also, torches are a mainstay for cave exploration, but that could easily be broken into coal/sticks which would allow the sticks to be a wildcard item that can be used in conjunction with coal to create torches, or cobblestone/iron/diamond to create dagger/trowel/hand pick etc, as need arises.
The argument that you could simply carry a workbench instead of fussing with 2x2 tools is valid, it's certainly the alternative that I've been using in the meantime, but it doesn't negate the fact that 2x2 crafting is currently underutilized and that the Workbench should not HAVE to be the first thing that EVERY player HAS to create at the start of EVERY single game.
The player has to make many things at the beginning like torches, a sword etc.
Just like EVERY player HAS to make a pickaxe EVERY time he wants to go mining :/
And is making a workbench at the beginning really bothering you? >.>
I'm not saying that the idea is bad and neither do I disagree that the 2x2 grid is underutilized.
I just dont think a weaker versions of the existing items are necessary.
Right now the crafting table isn't just "useful" it's impossible to play the game without, reducing its overall usefulness isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Your vote of confidence is appreciated. Have you had a chance to check the recent additions I've made to the list?
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Notch! You must make this PL0X!
1. It is possible that hand tools are kind of obsolete because it only takes 1 wood block to make a crafting table and then 1 additional stick to make the full sized tool. The only instances when I could imagine a player using these tools is when they are deep under ground with only 1 stick remaining. When you look at how often it would be better to use these tools than their all around better counterparts, it doesn't seem like a good use of implementation time.
1.A. Maybe if you thought of some other tools that had unique uses that would be better. I DO like the knife idea, though, and maybe something different like a mallet would be cool.
2.Dynamite/powder block controls: It makes more sense to place the charges with right click and 'fire' them with left click. In other words, placing the powder bomb would be with right click, throwing would be left click, placing the dynamite (unlit until punched) would be right click, and throwing the dynamite (lit) would be left click.
3. Shields are another topic all together, maybe you should put a link instead of a quote.
Can't find it, are you sure you got the link right?
I'm not aware that you can link stuff out of the Google Suggestion page.
First of all, thanks for replying. It helps keep the thread from getting buried, and generally lets me clarify and refine the ideas so they can be understood easily and are balanced as much as possible.
1) The handcrafted tools are meant to be a little obsolete for the specific purpose of not replacing the full versions. If you just carry a stack of sticks and coal, you can use those sticks to craft torches, which you'll need for spelunking anyway, but then you can also use them to craft any of the hand tools if you happened to need them. The other function is helping new players learn the crafting grid without having to specifically take them through the process.
2) Possibly, but typically items work so that right click is their special function and left click still can bash blocks no matter what you're holding. I don't want to create something that's going to not follow that system unless absolutely necessary.
3) I wanted to make sure people understood the function of the Small Shields, which are dependent on both the function and the crafting recipe that I have for the Full Shields, and the thread that I suggested the Full Shields in is a couple pages into it, with a bunch of completely different ideas for how shields should work and be crafted on all the other pages. The quote is to cut down on the inevitable confusion.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
I think the only limitation that needs to be applied to make hand tools less valuable than full sized tools is time to cut, which I believe is already built in there. I feel like durability should be the same, as in real life it would be quite similar, if not better. I like the elegance of having each material be equivalent to the effectiveness of the next material down.
Allowing right-click throwing of knives is neat, might be useful to carry that over to swords, but it has a serious drawback--accidentally throwing your weapon. Making them stackable would interfere with the current display mechanism for wearing, although that wouldn't be that hard to fix--just attribute the wear level to the top item in the stack; he probably wouldn't even have to change the object record. I think I'm on side for knives but not behind throwability, much though that would be fun. Additionally, the kind of knife that is useful for throwing is different from the knife that is useful for hand-wielding, so I could concieve of a separate formula for throwing knives, to implement a hand-craftable version of the projectile weapon (horizontal stick + material?)
Small and large shields are awesome, I think they should be equippable as an equipment slot. I also kind of think torches/lanterns should be equippable in the same slot, but that's another thread.
I'm not sure about the markers. I like having markers but I think the directionality mechanism is a bit iffy. I would prefer having to put them on the side of a block, similar to a torch, to give them a direction, because the mechanism is already in place. Alternately, and I think this would be useful in numerous situations, you could make object directionality depend on player facing (as I think you recommended?), for all directional objects (stairs, forges, track, redstone, etc).
You do realize that when I've been talking about hand tools being equivalent to the material the next grade down, that IS reduced durability that I'm referring to, right? Part of the logic behind them being less durable is because you're crafting them without a workbench and thus essentially making them in your lap, thus not made as well as ones crafted on a workbench. Theoretically, it might be possible to differentiate between crafting on the workbench gives you a more durable version than a hand tool crafted in the 2x2 grid.
The problem with that idea is what if you wear the top knife in a stack down to 50%, throw it, then wear the next knife down to 75%, and then pick up the knife you originally threw?
I had already seriously considered this option, but there were a few things bothering me:
1) There are knives that can be used both ways
2) If you hold a stack of arrows in your hand an punch, you don't do extra damage. If you hold a stack of diamond throwing daggers in your hand and punch, do you really think people wouldn't get frustrated with the fact that they're still doing regular punching damage even though they're holding a diamond dagger?
3) Unless you're using cobblestone daggers only, which doesn't even do as much damage as an arrow, crafting them would get seriously expensive and wouldn't be worth the cost for the level of damage being done.
That is the way that my idea for shields is designed.
Have you ever crafted and place a sign? I've never had a case where it wasn't facing me properly when I placed it. Essentially, the same script could be applied to the directional markers except instead of facing you, they would point away/ahead of you.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Boomerang: Crafting
Yes, that's right, you can already make your avatar look like Link, you've got the sword, you've got torches, bow, explosives, and I've already suggested Shields and what are essentially Light Arrows, so why not just go whole hog and throw in boomerangs?
Aim with Mouse, right click to throw. When thrown, the boomerang will fly straight out and then return to the player. If it hits a mob, it will knock them back similar to a snowball, and if it hits any items laying on the ground it will pick them up and bring them back to the player. Boomerangs can also be used to knock off torches and other objects that only require 1 hit to break. A Wooden Boomerang has a range about twice that of a melee attack, Gold, Iron, and Diamond are 3x, 4x, and 5x melee range respectively. Durability is based on the material used at the same rate as Hand Tools, and each throw that results in a mob or item being hit by the boomerang will result in 1 point of durability loss.
(inspired by Nitramite)
Topiary Blocks(x4): Crafting
The player has the option of taking any sapling they find and, instead of planting it to grow a new tree, may directly craft it into 4 Topiary Blocks. Topiary Blocks look exactly like regular Leaf Blocks
I'm not sure how this will work in terms of adding these to the poll. I think Boomerang could be tucked into the "Hand Tools" category, and Topiary Blocks will get tucked in with the Grill, since it's another idea that was inspired by someone else.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Just to keep the "material placement" consistent.
Cool, it's always nice to get the Sabata seal of approval.
I had considered just dropping the wooden boomerang entirely, but then I realized that makes no sense at all since you're more likely to get a wooden boomerang than an iron, gold or diamond one. I had been considering for there to be a stun effect, but realized that for something that could be crafted so cheaply and on the fly, just being able to pick up items from a distance and knock enemies back repeatedly would be adequately powerful on its own.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
OS: Windows 7/Ubuntu 10.10
RAM: 1gb
CPU: 2.7ghz Single Core
Video Card: GeFore 9400 GT
Sound: Onboard
* I think I still prefer having hand tools be reduced in working time over durability. I don't think we can draw a very strong real-life reference based on crafting quality, as one couldn't really build iron or diamond variants of tools without a workbench; but I intuitively feel like they should have at least increased time to cut, if not both increased time to cut and decreased durability.
* I think the boomerangs idea is decent; a wider profusion of possible tools to build would be interesting and would add significantly to player individuality, which I think will be a significant proportion of the draw to the game consider its open endedness.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/04/19/download-the-minecraft-demo/
Why cant you just make a workbench?
I mean you only need 4 wood/ 1 log for it :/
To even make an item you need a stick which requires you to get a piece of log anyways...
Most of the item ideas are good but if this feature would be added i'd rather make a workbench to get the "better version" of the item.
Example:
If I would be on an exploration and run out of pickaxes I would rather get myself 1 log to make a workbench then make a weaker version of the pickaxe...
The "new" items you added are good, exept those who are just a weaker version of the current items...
The argument that you could simply carry a workbench instead of fussing with 2x2 tools is valid, it's certainly the alternative that I've been using in the meantime, but it doesn't negate the fact that 2x2 crafting is currently underutilized and that the Workbench should not HAVE to be the first thing that EVERY player HAS to create at the start of EVERY single game.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Just like EVERY player HAS to make a pickaxe EVERY time he wants to go mining :/
And is making a workbench at the beginning really bothering you? >.>
I'm not saying that the idea is bad and neither do I disagree that the 2x2 grid is underutilized.
I just dont think a weaker versions of the existing items are necessary.