I agree with this, sorta..
I don't think you should be able to put together Diamond or Iron tools together by hand,
Also, it IS true that you need a 3x3 crafting grid to make the furnace to smelt the Iron(Which is the ONLY way to get Diamond and Gold)
I'm all for Stone and Wood hand-tools though
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by GreyAcumen » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:26 pm
Tree punchers. Everyone knows you use a pickaxe for rock, not your fists.
But if you used your initial pick (who's now only purpose would be harvesting the harder minerals) and didn't abuse the easily creatable Stone Hand Picks to get down you SHOULD have to go back to your chest to grab another one.
This is where you're wrong. Hand Picks, Daggers, and Trowels do less damage to enemies, take longer to break blocks, and have fewer uses per equivalent material type used in crafting. The only advantage they have is less stringent requirements to build, and being able to be built on the fly.
Simply put, those draw backs don't outweigh the bonus of building that much needed Pick to escape.
Restricting it to Wood and Stone WOULD make the 2x2s drawbacks outweigh the benefits though.
As is right now, you're asking for a workbench on your person, basically.
Sorry, this is back on throwing dagger. Just a thought for a hybrid. If you have a dagger equipped then you can "throw" your, stackable, throwing knives. Just like a bow "shoots" arrows, a dagger can "throw" knives. Just and idea for a best-of-both-worlds solution.
@sabata One thing you also have to keep in mind is the early game implications. This system helps out early on in teaching new players about crafting and gives you some nice early game tools for the new player so it makes the first day/night a little more survivable.
Simply put, those draw backs don't outweigh the bonus of building that much needed Pick to escape.
Restricting it to Wood and Stone WOULD make the 2x2s drawbacks outweigh the benefits though.
As is right now, you're asking for a workbench on your person, basically.
You're not supposed to outweigh the bonus of building that much needed Pick to escape, that IS the point of building the Pick even after you have a workbench that can be used to build full Pickaxe. The disadvantages are meant to still keep Workbench Tools preferable to use compared to their Handheld counterparts when the workbench is accessible.
Quote from ianmac »
Sorry, this is back on throwing dagger. Just a thought for a hybrid. If you have a dagger equipped then you can "throw" your, stackable, throwing knives. Just like a bow "shoots" arrows, a dagger can "throw" knives. Just and idea for a best-of-both-worlds solution.
That is excessively confusing. It would be easier just to make it so that if you had a Tool that broke from use,(or was dropped or thrown) and had another of the same quality of the same tool in your inventory, it would automatically get put into that slot that had the tool that broke or was dropped or thrown. But that is really an idea all of its own.
@sabata One thing you also have to keep in mind is the early game implications. This system helps out early on in teaching new players about crafting and gives you some nice early game tools for the new player so it makes the first day/night a little more survivable.
Sabata hasn't really been arguing against the tools, just the diamond and iron ones, from what I've seen. I just don't see any point to not having them. If they're not useful, people just wont make them.
And you only have 1 stick, and iron ore, you would need to use the iron hand pick to get out.
Said situation will never occur when you have no Cobblestone in your inventory.
And a cobblestone pick will get you out of there just fine.
Also, Iron Ore [ ] won't make a Pick or a Pickax. You're thinking smelted Iron [ ].
Quote from GreyAcumen »
The disadvantages are meant to still keep Workbench Tools preferable to use compared to their Handheld counterparts when the workbench is accessible.
I'm saying the disadvantages you've given them do not outweigh the advantage of having the item on the fly. Meaning you are obsoleting any tool made on the Work Bench.
You need to have more negatives to NOT obsolete said tools.
If your cons don't outweigh your pros then you're creating an overall BETTER ITEM. And you're obsoleting the old one.
Your Cons don't outweigh the Pros.
Limiting the TYPES of Hand Picks you can make still keeps the old ones as better, simple because they CAN mine the Ore or Obsidian.
Quote from GreyAcumen »
@sabata One thing you also have to keep in mind is the early game implications. This system helps out early on in teaching new players about crafting and gives you some nice early game tools for the new player so it makes the first day/night a little more survivable.
Sabata hasn't really been arguing against the tools, just the diamond and iron ones, from what I've seen. I just don't see any point to not having them. If they're not useful, people just wont make them.
Just to reinforce, yes that's exactly what I'm arguing.
I love this idea. However, I do think you shouldn't be able to go any higher than a stone pick, and also that the sling is a bit overpowered, because arrows are meant to be hard to come by. Gravel isn't.
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Quote from dusty328 »
This man really is a genius. Never have i seen such a clear and well written forum post.
or one shot every second and only deals half the damage. 10 seconds to kill something is a really long time, and that's if you hit it every time. Plus if it had a shorter range then that would make it even more under powered.
Back on topic. I think I am in the camp of "you have the whole tech tree or none at all". Why? Because at this point MC does not have "split" tech trees. You have a whole one or a big one. One question, does it HURT to have iron and diamond? By the time some one gets diamonds they would have made the bigger version, so I'm not seeing a problem. Yes, you could call it unneeded clutter, but what is it cluttering?
Why are people suggesting things for the sling that were already written in the initial description for it? I already have it as half damage, half the range, and a slower firing rate than the bow.
I'm saying the disadvantages you've given them do not outweigh the advantage of having the item on the fly.
How do you come to that conclusion? A diamond Pick requires 2 diamond to make and has half as many uses as a Diamond pickaxe that takes only 3 diamond to make, and on top of that it's slower (A LOT SLOWER when dealing with something that can't be mined by a tool of a lower-tiered material, which in this example would be obsidian)
In the case of the Trowel, it only beats the cost of making a full shovel by 1 stick and lasts half as long and is slower.
In the case of the Knife, it does half the damage to enemies which means you need to use it twice as often to do the same damage as a sword, and then the number of uses it has is still cut in half on top of that, so it effectively is only 1/4 as effective as a sword.
I don't know about you, but to me, that says that if I have a workbench and enough material to make the workbench version, I should make the workbench version, and only make a handheld version if the workbench version isn't an option.
Because your description on the sling is vague. "Slower" could mean only .1 of a second slower or it could mean 10 seconds slower. You need definition on that idea.
@ian
If you allow all tool types on the 2x2 then there's no reason to go to the 3x3 tools. You can make 2x2s on the fly, they're cheaper, and do roughly the same thing.
Also, are you for Iron, Gold, and Diamond steps then as well? (Off topic I know, but I'm trying to point out that the ingredients don't define the tree)
@Grey
The only reason you'd NEED a Diamond Pickax is to mine the harder minerals and get them out.
SPEED isn't the issue here, it's the fact of "Why go back to my camp to get that Diamond Pickax that lasts longer when I can just build a Diamond Pick here?"
The POINT of the 2x2 tools was incase you run out and need one on the fly. But having the ability to build ANY of the tools removes the point of "going back for the big ones".
You don't NEED a 2x2 tool.
But with your implementation that's ALL you'd need.
Um, did you pay attention to any of the figures? It's not an issue of time, it's an issue that you're wasting materials when it comes to how much use you get out of the tool per how much material you put into it.
I'm saying the disadvantages you've given them do not outweigh the advantage of having the item on the fly.
How do you come to that conclusion? A diamond Pick requires 2 diamond to make and has half as many uses as a Diamond pickaxe that takes only 3 diamond to make, and on top of that it's slower (A LOT SLOWER when dealing with something that can't be mined by a tool of a lower-tiered material, which in this example would be obsidian)
In the case of the Trowel, it only beats the cost of making a full shovel by 1 stick and lasts half as long and is slower.
In the case of the Knife, it does half the damage to enemies which means you need to use it twice as often to do the same damage as a sword, and then the number of uses it has is still cut in half on top of that, so it effectively is only 1/4 as effective as a sword.
I don't know about you, but to me, that says that if I have a workbench and enough material to make the workbench version, I should make the workbench version, and only make a handheld version if the workbench version isn't an option.
This is why you move on to a 3x3, better, more efficient tools. 2x2's are only for emergencies and beginning of the game. 3x3's are more efficient, last longer and you get more per inventory slot. 3x3's are clearly better.
Also, this wouldn't discourage players from building a work bench because everything else still needs one.
And, yes, I am FOR having the whole set. But only because it keeps up with a continuity of the game why limit some one just because it isn't "as good" as other stuff? If you go with that logic then all you would have is rocket launchers in halo, Battle cruisers in starcraft, and diamond pick axes in MC.
And thank you guys for not getting anything I'm saying.
The simple fact you can get it on demand means it's better than anything else.
If it's SUPPOSED to be for emergencies...
Quote from GreyAcumen »
2x2's are only for emergencies and beginning of the game.
Thank you, Ianmac, for getting pretty much everything I've been saying.
Then WHY have the Diamond and Steel ones?
To ESCAPE you only need wooden or stone ones. The ONLY reason for Diamond or Steel is to mine those precious metals.
But mining precious metals ISN'T an EMERCENCY.
The metals will be there when you return with your Diamond Pickax from your home.
There is no Emergency related reason that could possibly require a Steel or Diamond Pick.
However if you HAVE them, then you can just make that Diamond Pick on the fly, use it ONLY for the diamond required blocks, and mine for as loooong as you have sticks (which will be an incredibly long time if you bring a decent amount).
You remove the need to actually return home and make the 3x3 tools.
You say that the way it'll work is 2x2 wood/stone -> 3x3 anything -> 2x2 emergency.
I can tell you right here, that based on the limitations you have presented, 3x3 will NEVER enter the picture.
I don't think you should be able to put together Diamond or Iron tools together by hand,
Also, it IS true that you need a 3x3 crafting grid to make the furnace to smelt the Iron(Which is the ONLY way to get Diamond and Gold)
I'm all for Stone and Wood hand-tools though
Tree punchers. Everyone knows you use a pickaxe for rock, not your fists.
Simply put, those draw backs don't outweigh the bonus of building that much needed Pick to escape.
Restricting it to Wood and Stone WOULD make the 2x2s drawbacks outweigh the benefits though.
As is right now, you're asking for a workbench on your person, basically.
@sabata One thing you also have to keep in mind is the early game implications. This system helps out early on in teaching new players about crafting and gives you some nice early game tools for the new player so it makes the first day/night a little more survivable.
Leave the peeps alone, if they wanna be kinda dumb, its their problem.Imagine this situation.
And you only have 1 stick, and iron ore, you would need to use the iron hand pick to get out.
You're not supposed to outweigh the bonus of building that much needed Pick to escape, that IS the point of building the Pick even after you have a workbench that can be used to build full Pickaxe. The disadvantages are meant to still keep Workbench Tools preferable to use compared to their Handheld counterparts when the workbench is accessible.
That is excessively confusing. It would be easier just to make it so that if you had a Tool that broke from use,(or was dropped or thrown) and had another of the same quality of the same tool in your inventory, it would automatically get put into that slot that had the tool that broke or was dropped or thrown. But that is really an idea all of its own.
Sabata hasn't really been arguing against the tools, just the diamond and iron ones, from what I've seen. I just don't see any point to not having them. If they're not useful, people just wont make them.
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Said situation will never occur when you have no Cobblestone in your inventory.
And a cobblestone pick will get you out of there just fine.
Also, Iron Ore [
I'm saying the disadvantages you've given them do not outweigh the advantage of having the item on the fly.
Meaning you are obsoleting any tool made on the Work Bench.
You need to have more negatives to NOT obsolete said tools.
If your cons don't outweigh your pros then you're creating an overall BETTER ITEM. And you're obsoleting the old one.
Your Cons don't outweigh the Pros.
Limiting the TYPES of Hand Picks you can make still keeps the old ones as better, simple because they CAN mine the Ore or Obsidian.
Just to reinforce, yes that's exactly what I'm arguing.
You'd have to drastically reduce it's reload time (to like 1 shot every 3 seconds) to make it much worse than the bow.
Either that or have the Sling only cause knockback and no damage. That'd keep it a "ranged weapon" but have the Bow drastically better.
Back on topic. I think I am in the camp of "you have the whole tech tree or none at all". Why? Because at this point MC does not have "split" tech trees. You have a whole one or a big one. One question, does it HURT to have iron and diamond? By the time some one gets diamonds they would have made the bigger version, so I'm not seeing a problem. Yes, you could call it unneeded clutter, but what is it cluttering?
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
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How do you come to that conclusion? A diamond Pick requires 2 diamond to make and has half as many uses as a Diamond pickaxe that takes only 3 diamond to make, and on top of that it's slower (A LOT SLOWER when dealing with something that can't be mined by a tool of a lower-tiered material, which in this example would be obsidian)
In the case of the Trowel, it only beats the cost of making a full shovel by 1 stick and lasts half as long and is slower.
In the case of the Knife, it does half the damage to enemies which means you need to use it twice as often to do the same damage as a sword, and then the number of uses it has is still cut in half on top of that, so it effectively is only 1/4 as effective as a sword.
I don't know about you, but to me, that says that if I have a workbench and enough material to make the workbench version, I should make the workbench version, and only make a handheld version if the workbench version isn't an option.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
@ian
If you allow all tool types on the 2x2 then there's no reason to go to the 3x3 tools. You can make 2x2s on the fly, they're cheaper, and do roughly the same thing.
Also, are you for Iron, Gold, and Diamond steps then as well? (Off topic I know, but I'm trying to point out that the ingredients don't define the tree)
@Grey
The only reason you'd NEED a Diamond Pickax is to mine the harder minerals and get them out.
SPEED isn't the issue here, it's the fact of "Why go back to my camp to get that Diamond Pickax that lasts longer when I can just build a Diamond Pick here?"
The POINT of the 2x2 tools was incase you run out and need one on the fly. But having the ability to build ANY of the tools removes the point of "going back for the big ones".
You don't NEED a 2x2 tool.
But with your implementation that's ALL you'd need.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
This is why you move on to a 3x3, better, more efficient tools. 2x2's are only for emergencies and beginning of the game. 3x3's are more efficient, last longer and you get more per inventory slot. 3x3's are clearly better.
Also, this wouldn't discourage players from building a work bench because everything else still needs one.
And, yes, I am FOR having the whole set. But only because it keeps up with a continuity of the game why limit some one just because it isn't "as good" as other stuff? If you go with that logic then all you would have is rocket launchers in halo, Battle cruisers in starcraft, and diamond pick axes in MC.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
The simple fact you can get it on demand means it's better than anything else.
If it's SUPPOSED to be for emergencies...
Then WHY have the Diamond and Steel ones?
To ESCAPE you only need wooden or stone ones. The ONLY reason for Diamond or Steel is to mine those precious metals.
But mining precious metals ISN'T an EMERCENCY.
The metals will be there when you return with your Diamond Pickax from your home.
There is no Emergency related reason that could possibly require a Steel or Diamond Pick.
However if you HAVE them, then you can just make that Diamond Pick on the fly, use it ONLY for the diamond required blocks, and mine for as loooong as you have sticks (which will be an incredibly long time if you bring a decent amount).
You remove the need to actually return home and make the 3x3 tools.
You say that the way it'll work is 2x2 wood/stone -> 3x3 anything -> 2x2 emergency.
I can tell you right here, that based on the limitations you have presented, 3x3 will NEVER enter the picture.