1: How is a newbie who hasn't had any prior instructions on playing the game going to figure out how to harvest and use saplings and make them into planks and sticks, and from there continue? I mean, getting wood seems a perfectly normal thing to do, but getting saplings for wood? How do they figure that out
The same way a first time newbie figures out he can make a sword in vanilla minecraft: youtube or the wiki. It appears Notch plans to implement a real tutorial through the acheivements though. Even then it's a moot point: the appeal of minecraft is building after having accumulated resources, not from playing for the first time like Halo 1 or Myst (which was the best the first time.)
2: I can punch rocks all I like, but I'll just get useless powder. But if I punch a tree down, I can still use the wood. Why not in minecraft?
Good point actually - a small tree can be pushed by an ordinary person. Doing so would only give you logs, not usable planks though... Suggest a 9x9 crafting recipe for logs I guess? Sounds unescessary.
3: These small tools are useless, as if you don't have enough wood for a crafting grid, you probably don't have enough for small tools. The mining pick being usable as a hoe is useless, as it is a mining pick meanin git will be used underground, where there is not really any dirt to till.
Ok, first: small tools get the job done if you don't want to bother with a bench, which is most of the time. Second, using picks as hoes is useful in my opinion because hoes are an essentially useless item that isn't needed in the game anyway.
4: The crafting grid is meant to be essential to your survival. Making survival and comfortable living possible without it is out of the question. No.
A difference of opinion. I like the idea of venturing out without using workbenches, living off the land... and still keeping the game halfway playable while I'm at it.
5: The 2x2 isn't useless, I use it a lot to make torches, tables, and sticks
Get my point?
You have some decent points, my objections notwithstanding. Personally, I would only support a handful of the 2x2 crafting grid suggestions. I'm not so big on the sheilds, bomb, and special arrow ideas at the moment but that could change.
Good point actually - a small tree can be pushed by an ordinary person. Doing so would only give you logs, not usable planks though... Suggest a 9x9 crafting recipe for logs I guess? Sounds unescessary.
Minecraft doesn't have small trees. Well, actually it does, they're called SAPLINGS
Ok, first: small tools get the job done if you don't want to bother with a bench, which is most of the time. Second, using picks as hoes is useful in my opinion because hoes are an essentially useless item that isn't needed in the game anyway.
It's still more effective to make the hoe in terms of the number of uses you can get out of it for each material, but if people felt the hoe was completely superfluous from the trowel and pickaxe abilities, you could always get rid of the hoe entirely, and then split the abilities between the shovel and pickaxe;
Trowel/Shovel gathers seeds when right clicking on a grass block (maybe can also till at double durability)
Hand Pick/Pickaxe tills soil when right-clicking on a grass/dirt block.
A difference of opinion. I like the idea of venturing out without using workbenches, living off the land... and still keeping the game halfway playable while I'm at it.
Indeed, and as I've pointed out numerous times, Ladders, Boats, Minecarts (and tracks) Armor, and Furnaces, Dispensers, Chests, Buckets, Doors, Compasses, Clocks, and other basics of survival and building all require a workbench, so building the workbench is like moving up a tier.
Playing without the workbench only gives you BASIC access to what minecraft is about. You can get around and handle day to day survival, but the workbench will let you do just about everything better AND let you access things that couldn't be done at all without the workbench.
Dude. it's called a grain. You actually CAN break a log apart into planks by hand by tearing it apart AT the grain (though your hands would need to be hella tough to do it, or you could use a rock on the ground or something) breaking a log across the grain (which is what you're dong when you break logs off of tree) is no something you can do by hand I don't care how tough your hands are. I'm sorry this concept is so hard for you to grasp.
Go and find a meter thick tree/log and chop a section off using an iron axe against the grain. Can you do it in half a second? Even if you take the "Minecraft is faster than life because day is 10 minutes" approach, that's still 18 seconds per meter thick section you have to chop (36 total). It would take hours to chop a block like that WITH an axe, but in Minecraft this is much, much faster. This points out that grain or not these Minecraft trees aren't hard.
Imagine a paper honeycomb, extended so that it was a meter long, leaving a thin meter long air pocket. If you chopped against the "grain" it would slice through easily and you could chop a honeycomb "log" in half a second. Doing it by hand would take longer, but you could smash through a few layers per hit, getting the honeycomb "log" in 5 seconds. If you take the "Minecraft is faster" approach, it would be like a tougher honeycomb, same thinness but made out of wood. You'd only be able to advance a few centimeters per punch, but given over 3 minutes to do it, you'd be able to get the wood honeycomb log. Given an axe, you'd be able to chop a deep gash in the log per swing and could cut a section off in just 18 seconds.
Will you STOP using half ass logic? Go find a meter thick chuck of STONE and see how well you do with an iron pickaxe, same thing applies, and no, if it was full of air too, then punching it with a fist wouldn't magically turn it to powder any worse than a pickaxe would.
Your logic is inconsistent as you keep on making this erroneous assumption over and over again that trees have to follow reality just because they use an axe, even though other blocks that need a pickaxe or a shovel don't follow reality ANY BETTER.
Will you STOP using half ass logic? Go find a meter thick chuck of STONE and see how well you do with an iron pickaxe, same thing applies, and no, if it was full of air too, then punching it with a fist wouldn't magically turn it to powder any worse than a pickaxe would.
Your logic is inconsistent as you keep on making this erroneous assumption over and over again that trees have to follow reality just because they use an axe, even though other blocks that need a pickaxe or a shovel don't follow reality ANY BETTER.
If you don't want trees to be realistic, why need an axe? I was saying how it would be most realistically, so what you are trying to do can't be making it more realistic, if you aren't trying to make it realistic than are you trying to enhance gameplay? As far as I can tell, it doesn't do anything but make the player starting off the game take longer, so by the time they have coal and tools they don't have enough time to build a house so have to dig a hole in a cliff and wait out the night doing nothing.
And your idea that gathering coal and sticks and tools from saplings would take too long is FALSE. It's been DEMONSTRATED. REPEATEDLY. By MANY PEOPLE. That the player has PLENTY of time to deal with gathering enough saplings for at LEAST a Hatchet at which point they can go after the trees, and still have more than enough time left over to find some coal and a basic shelter to survive their first night.
I don't need to make it COMPLETELY realistic, but I'm still making it MORE realistic than it is now, an I'm ALSO bringing consistency between Logs/Axes and Stone/Pickaxes.
Grey, look around you! You have a great mod for this thread and everything, why not just use that? Why not use that, instead of forcing every single other player in the game to use this? You seem bent on having this, so just us the stupid mod.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
At a loss for words? Here's a few you can use: Welcome, to Night Vale...
ITT:
It's a weaker version of tools I never plan on using, nor creating.
STOP TRYING TO GET THIS INTO VANILLA GREY BECAUSE THAT'LL FORCE ME TO USE THESE TOOLS I DON'T PLAN ON USING!!!
Also, if you haven't actually read this damned topic, it's just you TWO who have this unfounded fear of this being implemented.
Also, if you honestly think Notch isn't going to adopt TooManyItems, and keep using "This is going to take up valuable item slots!" as your argument, you're about as smart as someone who thought BetterLight would never be included.
an I'm ALSO bringing consistency between Logs/Axes and Stone/Pickaxes.
What about the consistency between shovels and axes? You actually didn't make it any more consistent because all shovels do is speed it up just like axes, so you traded consistency with one tool for consistency with another...
Quote from deathguardian97 »
Grey, look around you! You have a great mod for this thread and everything, why not just use that? Why not use that, instead of forcing every single other player in the game to use this? You seem bent on having this, so just us the stupid mod.
Yes. Exactly. The 2x2 crafting grid is fine, but forcing everyone to use it? You can have the trees not punch-down-able but just keep it as a mod. While the 2x2 crafting grip expands possibilities forcing everyone to use it limits them.
an I'm ALSO bringing consistency between Logs/Axes and Stone/Pickaxes.
What about the consistency between shovels and axes? You actually didn't make it any more consistent because all shovels do is speed it up just like axes, so you traded consistency with one tool for consistency with another...
Shovels are required for gathering snow already and also only require a SINGLE material to craft anyway. The Axe is currently the inconsistent tool as it takes 3 material (as expensive as the Pickaxe, hence should be just as important) and currently serves no critical function.
To be CONSISTENT the Axe should be required for at LEAST one block. Logs are the obvious choice as they are the most "basic" wooden material,(forming naturally instead of being crafted) hence the most likely candidate for being the most difficult to break. The log is also critical enough of a block that it brings the value of the axe to be equal to that of the pickaxe, which uses the same number of material.
The other obvious choice would be to make Workbenches and/or Chests require an Axe to gather, the same way that a Pickaxe is required to gather Furnaces and Dispensers. This would emphasize the idea that Workbenches are meant for setting up a permanent base, and not to just place at a moments notice.
So I've addressed every issue you've brought up; Supposed Increased Difficulty, "Realism",(as far as it pertains to minecraft) Logic, Consistency, and Game Balance.
There is absolutely NO angle from which you can correctly argue the implementation of Axes needed for Logs as not making sense. The ONLY point that you can even raise is that some players wouldn't like it, but you don't see people complaining about needing a pickaxe to mine stone. There's no difference.
1/3rd of the old players will praise the changes, another 1/3rd will complain about the change but cope and realize that it really does make more sense, and the final 1/3rd will turn to a mod that re-implements the bare handed method. Every single new players will wonder what the heck is wrong with the old players that they think it makes sense to punch down trees by hand.
Oh my... people arguing? On a forum? Would either of you be American?!
I personally think that this... is a truly great idea. Bordering on cracking idea, settling at the feet of splendid idea. Truly "great", only because it's not part of the core Minecraft experience. Forget the people who cry over the possibility of this new content being added, they don't appreciate such scales of beauty and splendour.
Forsooth; I don't cry that there's a compass in the game that I never use. Nor the "clock". I never really use the bow or arrows, yet still my lip remains unquivering; stolid... under the brutal onslaught of all prior additives to the Minecraft universe.
Do I make Redstone circuits? No, and looking at some of the vast theorems and applications of them hewn into the rock; vast, berserk, mathematical behemoths of switch-flicking insanity, i'm glad I never got that Masters in theoretical engineering and practical electronics.
I didn't even take the subject! I don't think it even exists!
My sole point is this; additions are welcome. Squid ink sacs simply to give reason to slaying squid with wanton abandon, cake which I will probably never bother gathering the materials to create, bonemeal introduced fruitlessly trying and curb my mass herbicide against treedom and it's protéges... looking at you, mushrooms. To the flaming log with you!
I want these in the game. I want them so bad I can taste it. Acrid, iron-laced salty blood taste.... hatchets... bowdrills... mandrills? Succint carnage borne from my very hands with this implement of fiery death? Such magnificent surgeries I could visit upon my vast, cuboid realms with these tools of the craft, I cannot even begin to muster.
Simply having the option to craft these things adds more freedom to the game, if not immersion. Not that Minecraft should be about realism... this is a game where zombies, skeletons and green, exploding quadrapeds rule the nightscapes, as you tarry about, whooping and howling your way through vast oaken everglades and deep forests, punching oaken boughs asunder for their precious wood.
But I believe such things would help solidify the memories, the experiences to both a newcomer and a veteran alike, the rabid desperation of crafting a hatchet just to farm the wood required to enable thyself to mine to the depths, or erect hasty shelters against the storm... of arrows, and exploding green giraffe-man-beasts.
I hold sacred my first foray into the world of Minecraft, that first tender connection to punching dirt and sand, oblivious to the peril that night would bring - and defending myself with a stick, stood trembling in a single pocket 1x2 with a window to the world outside as fiends of undeath ran rampant about me!
The impressions these new items and the discovery of crafting them would bring to nabs and pwnlords alike would be well worth the salty tears of the few perturbed individuals.
Wow... I think that is unquestionably the most epic response I've ever gotten to any of my ideas. If someone had put that much thought and effort into bashing my ideas I think I'd have still come out enjoying it. (though now that you've set the bar, anyone else is just going to come out as copying if they try)
Hmm...
Lose the hypno watch and ink quill (They seem to me to be kind of novelty items.)
But otherwise I think it's great.
I agree that we need more 2 * 2 crafting.
Instead of having trees ONLY drop wood with a hatchet or axe, have them drop 2 sticks and maybe
1 plank. Still can "Punch tree, get wood" but still involve realism!
The same way a first time newbie figures out he can make a sword in vanilla minecraft: youtube or the wiki. It appears Notch plans to implement a real tutorial through the acheivements though. Even then it's a moot point: the appeal of minecraft is building after having accumulated resources, not from playing for the first time like Halo 1 or Myst (which was the best the first time.)
Good point actually - a small tree can be pushed by an ordinary person. Doing so would only give you logs, not usable planks though... Suggest a 9x9 crafting recipe for logs I guess? Sounds unescessary.
Ok, first: small tools get the job done if you don't want to bother with a bench, which is most of the time. Second, using picks as hoes is useful in my opinion because hoes are an essentially useless item that isn't needed in the game anyway.
A difference of opinion. I like the idea of venturing out without using workbenches, living off the land... and still keeping the game halfway playable while I'm at it.
You have some decent points, my objections notwithstanding. Personally, I would only support a handful of the 2x2 crafting grid suggestions. I'm not so big on the sheilds, bomb, and special arrow ideas at the moment but that could change.
Minecraft doesn't have small trees. Well, actually it does, they're called SAPLINGS
It's still more effective to make the hoe in terms of the number of uses you can get out of it for each material, but if people felt the hoe was completely superfluous from the trowel and pickaxe abilities, you could always get rid of the hoe entirely, and then split the abilities between the shovel and pickaxe;
Trowel/Shovel gathers seeds when right clicking on a grass block (maybe can also till at double durability)
Hand Pick/Pickaxe tills soil when right-clicking on a grass/dirt block.
Indeed, and as I've pointed out numerous times, Ladders, Boats, Minecarts (and tracks) Armor, and Furnaces, Dispensers, Chests, Buckets, Doors, Compasses, Clocks, and other basics of survival and building all require a workbench, so building the workbench is like moving up a tier.
Playing without the workbench only gives you BASIC access to what minecraft is about. You can get around and handle day to day survival, but the workbench will let you do just about everything better AND let you access things that couldn't be done at all without the workbench.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Look again. The Shields are now DIAMONDS!
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Yay, I get small tools that become 90% useless the moment I make a crafting table! Yay!
PS: DId you know that 65.4% of statistics are made up on the spot?
Go and find a meter thick tree/log and chop a section off using an iron axe against the grain. Can you do it in half a second? Even if you take the "Minecraft is faster than life because day is 10 minutes" approach, that's still 18 seconds per meter thick section you have to chop (36 total). It would take hours to chop a block like that WITH an axe, but in Minecraft this is much, much faster. This points out that grain or not these Minecraft trees aren't hard.
Imagine a paper honeycomb, extended so that it was a meter long, leaving a thin meter long air pocket. If you chopped against the "grain" it would slice through easily and you could chop a honeycomb "log" in half a second. Doing it by hand would take longer, but you could smash through a few layers per hit, getting the honeycomb "log" in 5 seconds. If you take the "Minecraft is faster" approach, it would be like a tougher honeycomb, same thinness but made out of wood. You'd only be able to advance a few centimeters per punch, but given over 3 minutes to do it, you'd be able to get the wood honeycomb log. Given an axe, you'd be able to chop a deep gash in the log per swing and could cut a section off in just 18 seconds.
Pipes
Your logic is inconsistent as you keep on making this erroneous assumption over and over again that trees have to follow reality just because they use an axe, even though other blocks that need a pickaxe or a shovel don't follow reality ANY BETTER.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
If you don't want trees to be realistic, why need an axe? I was saying how it would be most realistically, so what you are trying to do can't be making it more realistic, if you aren't trying to make it realistic than are you trying to enhance gameplay? As far as I can tell, it doesn't do anything but make the player starting off the game take longer, so by the time they have coal and tools they don't have enough time to build a house so have to dig a hole in a cliff and wait out the night doing nothing.
Pipes
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And your idea that gathering coal and sticks and tools from saplings would take too long is FALSE. It's been DEMONSTRATED. REPEATEDLY. By MANY PEOPLE. That the player has PLENTY of time to deal with gathering enough saplings for at LEAST a Hatchet at which point they can go after the trees, and still have more than enough time left over to find some coal and a basic shelter to survive their first night.
I don't need to make it COMPLETELY realistic, but I'm still making it MORE realistic than it is now, an I'm ALSO bringing consistency between Logs/Axes and Stone/Pickaxes.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
It's a weaker version of tools I never plan on using, nor creating.
STOP TRYING TO GET THIS INTO VANILLA GREY BECAUSE THAT'LL FORCE ME TO USE THESE TOOLS I DON'T PLAN ON USING!!!
Also, if you haven't actually read this damned topic, it's just you TWO who have this unfounded fear of this being implemented.
Also, if you honestly think Notch isn't going to adopt TooManyItems, and keep using "This is going to take up valuable item slots!" as your argument, you're about as smart as someone who thought BetterLight would never be included.
What about the consistency between shovels and axes? You actually didn't make it any more consistent because all shovels do is speed it up just like axes, so you traded consistency with one tool for consistency with another...
Yes. Exactly. The 2x2 crafting grid is fine, but forcing everyone to use it? You can have the trees not punch-down-able but just keep it as a mod. While the 2x2 crafting grip expands possibilities forcing everyone to use it limits them.
Pipes
Shovels are required for gathering snow already and also only require a SINGLE material to craft anyway. The Axe is currently the inconsistent tool as it takes 3 material (as expensive as the Pickaxe, hence should be just as important) and currently serves no critical function.
To be CONSISTENT the Axe should be required for at LEAST one block. Logs are the obvious choice as they are the most "basic" wooden material,(forming naturally instead of being crafted) hence the most likely candidate for being the most difficult to break. The log is also critical enough of a block that it brings the value of the axe to be equal to that of the pickaxe, which uses the same number of material.
The other obvious choice would be to make Workbenches and/or Chests require an Axe to gather, the same way that a Pickaxe is required to gather Furnaces and Dispensers. This would emphasize the idea that Workbenches are meant for setting up a permanent base, and not to just place at a moments notice.
So I've addressed every issue you've brought up; Supposed Increased Difficulty, "Realism",(as far as it pertains to minecraft) Logic, Consistency, and Game Balance.
There is absolutely NO angle from which you can correctly argue the implementation of Axes needed for Logs as not making sense. The ONLY point that you can even raise is that some players wouldn't like it, but you don't see people complaining about needing a pickaxe to mine stone. There's no difference.
1/3rd of the old players will praise the changes, another 1/3rd will complain about the change but cope and realize that it really does make more sense, and the final 1/3rd will turn to a mod that re-implements the bare handed method. Every single new players will wonder what the heck is wrong with the old players that they think it makes sense to punch down trees by hand.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Wow... I think that is unquestionably the most epic response I've ever gotten to any of my ideas. If someone had put that much thought and effort into bashing my ideas I think I'd have still come out enjoying it. (though now that you've set the bar, anyone else is just going to come out as copying if they try)
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
I'm concerned that those words might be closer together than legally allowable.
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.
Lose the hypno watch and ink quill (They seem to me to be kind of novelty items.)
But otherwise I think it's great.
I agree that we need more 2 * 2 crafting.
1 plank. Still can "Punch tree, get wood" but still involve realism!
TL;Dr:
Break w/ hand: /
Break w/ axe/hatchet: