I know it may be a hassle to get back to your "base" once you've died because everybody has one static spawn point. However, if I could choose to spawn in a bed in my house I would never be forced to leave. I could have a closed off, well-lit cave system and literally never deal with any mobs. Ever. That's not exactly survival.
Not as if it's impossible to make your current spawn point safe. Heck, you could even build your base around your spawn if you wanted, there's nothing preventing that either. Most people I've seen at least light up the area. My own spawn hasn't seen dangerous monsters in ages. The idea that an unchangeable spawn point is "dangerous" is laughable.
No, it's not any more or less dangerous than movable spawn points. Either one can be "abused." The only real question is how it affects exploration.
. . . and I'd much prefer my challenges come intentionally from monsters Notch designs, rather than quirky game design.
What really needs to be addressed is people trying to start a new base far away from their old one, but failing because when they die they spawn next to their old base. It really discourages any sort of exploration. I've seen my share of LPs where somebody tries to find a new area, but ends up never using it because it's just a pain to go there every time after a death.
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When all is said and done, Will you have said more than you have done?
I know it may be a hassle to get back to your "base" once you've died because everybody has one static spawn point. However, if I could choose to spawn in a bed in my house I would never be forced to leave. I could have a closed off, well-lit cave system and literally never deal with any mobs. Ever. That's not exactly survival.
Not as if it's impossible to make your current spawn point safe. Heck, you could even build your base around your spawn if you wanted, there's nothing preventing that either. Most people I've seen at least light up the area. My own spawn hasn't seen dangerous monsters in ages. The idea that an unchangeable spawn point is "dangerous" is laughable.
No, it's not any more or less dangerous than movable spawn points. Either one can be "abused." The only real question is how it affects exploration.
. . . and I'd much prefer my challenges come intentionally from monsters Notch designs, rather than quirky game design.
What really needs to be addressed is people trying to start a new base far away from their old one, but failing because when they die they spawn next to their old base. It really discourages any sort of exploration. I've seen my share of LPs where somebody tries to find a new area, but ends up never using it because it's just a pain to go there every time after a death.
This. In bold. Waaaaaaaay more than "getting your stuff". I can always always make/find more resources, you can even erase them every single time I die for all I care; but walking for literally hours or even longer back to your base is a serious chore that destroys the fun of finding a new home, or even just doing the Lewis & Clark thing. What a waste of a basically infinite map. One false step and you could lose months of work and exploration. This to me is a much bigger loss than some crap in my inventory; to not ever find again the places I was exploring. It's like running a marathon, but starting from the beginning every single time you stumble on a stone.
Also, I love how people use the "but I'm not forced to" argument against things like this. Why would ANYBODY just sit in a hole anyway? Do you really need the game to tell you to go outside? It's not your mom on a sunny Saturday afternoon. And even if someone did just sit in a hole every day, it's not your game, good for them - maybe they have a grave fetish, or they're agoraphobic. Other people "abusing" a game mechanic that has nothing to do with you, well, has nothing to do with you. I'd just rather not have to spend five or six days of IRL to move out from spawn when my living space is literally on another continent across an ocean, just because a sheep knocked me off a cliff. That is not rewarding or challenging, that is just silly.
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Quote from will_holmes »
Quote from anon »
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that I'm the only person who plays Minecraft normally.
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that there is no such thing as playing Minecraft normally.
I did, but I found it to be more of a hassle than the current no-system; far too much convolution for a respawn mechanic in this particular game. Also, in your final paragraphs, you mention forcing players to play a certain way, with your resource-stripping-then-moving-on concept. That is the argument against the locked down spawnpoint in the first place; that it discourages certain types of gameplay. I'm not looking for a way to MAKE people move, that's simply the opposite end of making them stay in one spot. Your system is interesting, but it discourages people who simply wish to change addresses, same as now. That's not what I'm looking for here. It's about options, not enforcing certain playstyles.
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Quote from will_holmes »
Quote from anon »
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that I'm the only person who plays Minecraft normally.
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that there is no such thing as playing Minecraft normally.
If you go exploring and find an amazing mountain where you want to build your new base, is it that difficult/unreasonable that you should have to work for the privilege?
Once? No.
Every time you die? Yes.
Will hell fix this? Won't know until it's available.
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When all is said and done, Will you have said more than you have done?
The work I was describing was the work involved in building a "hell link" between the two. I just meant that its now possible to get somewhere far away without walking there. Unless notch has been telling complete fibs its reasonable to deduct that hell will solve this.
But you're quite correct, walking a few kilometers every time you die is a bit off.
Yep...the Hell dimension will shorten the distance...*if* you manage to not get exploded by the ghasts enroute between portals. Or get broiled by spreading fire, since apparently the ground itself is log-flammable, rather than just short-term flammable like normal ground.
What about in a competitive SMP/PVP server? What if one cannot find the resources to obtain obsidian, because those before you have stripped everywhere near the spawn clean of resources?
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[quote=8bit]
By balance, do you mean make it totally worthless?
What about in a competitive SMP/PVP server? What if one cannot find the resources to obtain obsidian, because those before you have stripped everywhere near the spawn clean of resources?
Lava, water, and iron to make buckets to carry them in, you mean? That's the good thing about the portals--by the time you've spread out enough that they're actually useful, it's almost certain you've gone deep enough that you have the materials for them.
What about in a competitive SMP/PVP server? What if one cannot find the resources to obtain obsidian, because those before you have stripped everywhere near the spawn clean of resources?
Lava, water, and iron to make buckets to carry them in, you mean? That's the good thing about the portals--by the time you've spread out enough that they're actually useful, it's almost certain you've gone deep enough that you have the materials for them.
You forgot diamonds. You need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian.
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[quote=8bit]
By balance, do you mean make it totally worthless?
What about in a competitive SMP/PVP server? What if one cannot find the resources to obtain obsidian, because those before you have stripped everywhere near the spawn clean of resources?
Lava, water, and iron to make buckets to carry them in, you mean? That's the good thing about the portals--by the time you've spread out enough that they're actually useful, it's almost certain you've gone deep enough that you have the materials for them.
You forgot diamonds. You need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian.
Why in blazes would you bother *mining* the stuff? That's the stupid route. Get the lava and the water, and form it in place. I'm working on an obsidian tower using just that method right now, as a matter of fact--I just need to get around to mining down to the lava under my construction site rather than hauling 12 buckets at a time and being careful to not do something stupid like try to use a chest or worktable while I have one in hand...again.
The work I was describing was the work involved in building a "hell link" between the two. I just meant that its now possible to get somewhere far away without walking there. Unless notch has been telling complete fibs its reasonable to deduct that hell will solve this.
But you're quite correct, walking a few kilometers every time you die is a bit off.
The Wooby Dooby Land mechanic could mitigate the effect to a degree, it'll allow greater distances to be traveled in less time; that's a good point. But once the distances start getting continental, it becomes a big problem again. From my own POV on this topic, I'm thinking about waaaay more than a just a few kilometres. I'm thinking more like the distance from Notch's house to Greece. That's a long way to walk each time you die even with a dimensional shortcut; and depending on how dangerous it ends up being in there, could be even more of a problem during travel than the overland route.
I'm certainly not looking at this as a way to somehow "get one up" on the game; for me it's about getting to really use the map generator, and also deciding yourself where you want your home to be on that map. Biomes only make this idea more feasible IMO. If on survival you'll be eventually freezing to death, you may want to move your spawn if you end up in an arctic zone on your first day. It doesn't have to be an on-the-fly choice, if there were a waiting period between spawnsets, even a really long one, that would be perfect for my concept of their use as a home relocator. That would also satisfy at least some of the people who believe that it's a cheat of some sort.
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Quote from will_holmes »
Quote from anon »
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that I'm the only person who plays Minecraft normally.
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that there is no such thing as playing Minecraft normally.
people don't always want to have their bases be at spawn. I often find awesome locations for a base while out exploring. Having to pin yourself to the initial spawn is arbitrary and limiting.
people don't always want to have their bases be at spawn. I often find awesome locations for a base while out exploring. Having to pin yourself to the initial spawn is arbitrary and limiting.
I generally have my base NEAR the spawn, but not actually on it. It's always a good idea to at least have a little bunker by your spawn point that you keep stocked with some basic swords, armor, picks, bucket, boat, meat, and compass.
After that, lay down some minecart tracks or at least some stone markers that point you in the right direction towards your MAIN base. The important part to the compass is being able to find your way back to your spawn point so you can set this stuff up.
people don't always want to have their bases be at spawn. I often find awesome locations for a base while out exploring. Having to pin yourself to the initial spawn is arbitrary and limiting.
I generally have my base NEAR the spawn, but not actually on it. It's always a good idea to at least have a little bunker by your spawn point that you keep stocked with some basic swords, armor, picks, bucket, boat, meat, and compass.
After that, lay down some minecart tracks or at least some stone markers that point you in the right direction towards your MAIN base. The important part to the compass is being able to find your way back to your spawn point so you can set this stuff up.
Having to do this is actually kinda the crux of the argument on the 'pro spawn-moving' side, actually--this whole thing makes your initial spawn the focal point of everything, rather than being able to explore, find a nice place, and being able to make *that* the center-point of your building, exploration, etc. I ended up building a castle around my spawn, and I'm still not entirely happy--inside I've got a nice grassed field, but outside is a barren sandy beach--I would have been a lot happier if I could have based myself around some of the nice big valleys or hilltops I've found, personally. If someone actually builds their central base not on their spawn point, it makes the compass a lot less useful as well--it no longer points to 'home', it points to 'that badly lit bus station halfway across town that you then have to either hike home from or hope you have bus fare for, presuming you haven't already missed the last run and have to sit around next to the athsmatic wino...'
people don't always want to have their bases be at spawn. I often find awesome locations for a base while out exploring. Having to pin yourself to the initial spawn is arbitrary and limiting.
I generally have my base NEAR the spawn, but not actually on it. It's always a good idea to at least have a little bunker by your spawn point that you keep stocked with some basic swords, armor, picks, bucket, boat, meat, and compass.
After that, lay down some minecart tracks or at least some stone markers that point you in the right direction towards your MAIN base. The important part to the compass is being able to find your way back to your spawn point so you can set this stuff up.
This is good advice for current mechanics, but basically shows why people want to move their spawn in the first place. Railways are cool, but think of distances measured in nations and continents. Building what amounts to the entire European railway system or at the least the Roman roadways should be part of a voluntary project, not a respawn mechanic. The iron cost alone makes a project like that ridiculous if its sole purpose is to get you directly back to a really faraway place that you live in all the rest of the time anyway. It's a technically feasible thing to accomplish, but it totally destroys the nomadic wanderer gameplay concept. Nomadic peoples living off the land tend not to build 4600 kilometres of rail line every time they shift camps. And that means you'd need to do that for EVERY faraway place ever that you decided to live.
Mid-Edit: and also completely what the poster above has written.
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Quote from will_holmes »
Quote from anon »
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that I'm the only person who plays Minecraft normally.
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that there is no such thing as playing Minecraft normally.
I have to admit, I haven't gotten far enough in any of my games for distance from a spawn point to be an issue yet. The only problem with a movable spawn point is that the more mobile it becomes, the less important death is.
for me, i have a string of outposts connected by a underground rail way. unfortunately if i die i have to take 3 days to get from my spawn point to my farthest outpost. that is 72 straight hours of rail ridding. it's kinda annoying. that's why i'm pro-moving spawner
I have to admit, I haven't gotten far enough in any of my games for distance from a spawn point to be an issue yet. The only problem with a movable spawn point is that the more mobile it becomes, the less important death is.
It's only that important right now solely due to distance, and no other factors; I'd say the mechanic has over-exaggerated the death punishment in the wrong fashion. Death itself is still an issue, because when you die you're already removed from whatever you were doing because a creeper was paying moar attention than you were. Your armour and weapon are still wrecked from a spider beatdown no matter how far away you respawn; usually when you get killed it's something that already takes a round or two out of your damageable gear even before you died. That being said, I'd gladly trade all items at death for a mobile spawn, and even add a decent waiting period between spawnsetting; to add that extra sting you're looking for. A mobile spawn simply makes it easier for folks to have the long-distance game without being punished more than the less-traveled players. As it stands, the further you explore, the exponentially harder the game becomes entirely based on how far away you're going to re-appear. In my mind, the current mechanic is reinforcing "spawncamping" more than it is a legit form of death punishment.
Also, there's nothing forcing people to move the spawn either if it were mobile. I'm sure there will be plenty of "hardcores" who will intentionally never move their spawn as a personal or public challenge, or move it intentionally somewhere inhospitable; this makes death not less important in other gamestyles, but more important and fun in those ones. But the punishment for death shouldn't be solely connected to the distance you want to travel, not on a map this potentially big and diverse. I'm perfectly willing to entertain other ideas of death smackdown if it means I can live wherever I choose.
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Quote from will_holmes »
Quote from anon »
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that I'm the only person who plays Minecraft normally.
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that there is no such thing as playing Minecraft normally.
Not as if it's impossible to make your current spawn point safe. Heck, you could even build your base around your spawn if you wanted, there's nothing preventing that either. Most people I've seen at least light up the area. My own spawn hasn't seen dangerous monsters in ages. The idea that an unchangeable spawn point is "dangerous" is laughable.
No, it's not any more or less dangerous than movable spawn points. Either one can be "abused." The only real question is how it affects exploration.
. . . and I'd much prefer my challenges come intentionally from monsters Notch designs, rather than quirky game design.
What really needs to be addressed is people trying to start a new base far away from their old one, but failing because when they die they spawn next to their old base. It really discourages any sort of exploration. I've seen my share of LPs where somebody tries to find a new area, but ends up never using it because it's just a pain to go there every time after a death.
This. In bold. Waaaaaaaay more than "getting your stuff". I can always always make/find more resources, you can even erase them every single time I die for all I care; but walking for literally hours or even longer back to your base is a serious chore that destroys the fun of finding a new home, or even just doing the Lewis & Clark thing. What a waste of a basically infinite map. One false step and you could lose months of work and exploration. This to me is a much bigger loss than some crap in my inventory; to not ever find again the places I was exploring. It's like running a marathon, but starting from the beginning every single time you stumble on a stone.
Also, I love how people use the "but I'm not forced to" argument against things like this. Why would ANYBODY just sit in a hole anyway? Do you really need the game to tell you to go outside? It's not your mom on a sunny Saturday afternoon. And even if someone did just sit in a hole every day, it's not your game, good for them - maybe they have a grave fetish, or they're agoraphobic. Other people "abusing" a game mechanic that has nothing to do with you, well, has nothing to do with you. I'd just rather not have to spend five or six days of IRL to move out from spawn when my living space is literally on another continent across an ocean, just because a sheep knocked me off a cliff. That is not rewarding or challenging, that is just silly.
I did, but I found it to be more of a hassle than the current no-system; far too much convolution for a respawn mechanic in this particular game. Also, in your final paragraphs, you mention forcing players to play a certain way, with your resource-stripping-then-moving-on concept. That is the argument against the locked down spawnpoint in the first place; that it discourages certain types of gameplay. I'm not looking for a way to MAKE people move, that's simply the opposite end of making them stay in one spot. Your system is interesting, but it discourages people who simply wish to change addresses, same as now. That's not what I'm looking for here. It's about options, not enforcing certain playstyles.
Once? No.
Every time you die? Yes.
Will hell fix this? Won't know until it's available.
Yep...the Hell dimension will shorten the distance...*if* you manage to not get exploded by the ghasts enroute between portals. Or get broiled by spreading fire, since apparently the ground itself is log-flammable, rather than just short-term flammable like normal ground.
[quote=8bit]
By balance, do you mean make it totally worthless?
Lava, water, and iron to make buckets to carry them in, you mean? That's the good thing about the portals--by the time you've spread out enough that they're actually useful, it's almost certain you've gone deep enough that you have the materials for them.
You forgot diamonds. You need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian.
[quote=8bit]
By balance, do you mean make it totally worthless?
Why in blazes would you bother *mining* the stuff? That's the stupid route. Get the lava and the water, and form it in place. I'm working on an obsidian tower using just that method right now, as a matter of fact--I just need to get around to mining down to the lava under my construction site rather than hauling 12 buckets at a time and being careful to not do something stupid like try to use a chest or worktable while I have one in hand...again.
The Wooby Dooby Land mechanic could mitigate the effect to a degree, it'll allow greater distances to be traveled in less time; that's a good point. But once the distances start getting continental, it becomes a big problem again. From my own POV on this topic, I'm thinking about waaaay more than a just a few kilometres. I'm thinking more like the distance from Notch's house to Greece. That's a long way to walk each time you die even with a dimensional shortcut; and depending on how dangerous it ends up being in there, could be even more of a problem during travel than the overland route.
I'm certainly not looking at this as a way to somehow "get one up" on the game; for me it's about getting to really use the map generator, and also deciding yourself where you want your home to be on that map. Biomes only make this idea more feasible IMO. If on survival you'll be eventually freezing to death, you may want to move your spawn if you end up in an arctic zone on your first day. It doesn't have to be an on-the-fly choice, if there were a waiting period between spawnsets, even a really long one, that would be perfect for my concept of their use as a home relocator. That would also satisfy at least some of the people who believe that it's a cheat of some sort.
I generally have my base NEAR the spawn, but not actually on it. It's always a good idea to at least have a little bunker by your spawn point that you keep stocked with some basic swords, armor, picks, bucket, boat, meat, and compass.
After that, lay down some minecart tracks or at least some stone markers that point you in the right direction towards your MAIN base. The important part to the compass is being able to find your way back to your spawn point so you can set this stuff up.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Having to do this is actually kinda the crux of the argument on the 'pro spawn-moving' side, actually--this whole thing makes your initial spawn the focal point of everything, rather than being able to explore, find a nice place, and being able to make *that* the center-point of your building, exploration, etc. I ended up building a castle around my spawn, and I'm still not entirely happy--inside I've got a nice grassed field, but outside is a barren sandy beach--I would have been a lot happier if I could have based myself around some of the nice big valleys or hilltops I've found, personally. If someone actually builds their central base not on their spawn point, it makes the compass a lot less useful as well--it no longer points to 'home', it points to 'that badly lit bus station halfway across town that you then have to either hike home from or hope you have bus fare for, presuming you haven't already missed the last run and have to sit around next to the athsmatic wino...'
This is good advice for current mechanics, but basically shows why people want to move their spawn in the first place. Railways are cool, but think of distances measured in nations and continents. Building what amounts to the entire European railway system or at the least the Roman roadways should be part of a voluntary project, not a respawn mechanic. The iron cost alone makes a project like that ridiculous if its sole purpose is to get you directly back to a really faraway place that you live in all the rest of the time anyway. It's a technically feasible thing to accomplish, but it totally destroys the nomadic wanderer gameplay concept. Nomadic peoples living off the land tend not to build 4600 kilometres of rail line every time they shift camps. And that means you'd need to do that for EVERY faraway place ever that you decided to live.
Mid-Edit: and also completely what the poster above has written.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
It's only that important right now solely due to distance, and no other factors; I'd say the mechanic has over-exaggerated the death punishment in the wrong fashion. Death itself is still an issue, because when you die you're already removed from whatever you were doing because a creeper was paying moar attention than you were. Your armour and weapon are still wrecked from a spider beatdown no matter how far away you respawn; usually when you get killed it's something that already takes a round or two out of your damageable gear even before you died. That being said, I'd gladly trade all items at death for a mobile spawn, and even add a decent waiting period between spawnsetting; to add that extra sting you're looking for. A mobile spawn simply makes it easier for folks to have the long-distance game without being punished more than the less-traveled players. As it stands, the further you explore, the exponentially harder the game becomes entirely based on how far away you're going to re-appear. In my mind, the current mechanic is reinforcing "spawncamping" more than it is a legit form of death punishment.
Also, there's nothing forcing people to move the spawn either if it were mobile. I'm sure there will be plenty of "hardcores" who will intentionally never move their spawn as a personal or public challenge, or move it intentionally somewhere inhospitable; this makes death not less important in other gamestyles, but more important and fun in those ones. But the punishment for death shouldn't be solely connected to the distance you want to travel, not on a map this potentially big and diverse. I'm perfectly willing to entertain other ideas of death smackdown if it means I can live wherever I choose.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series