If torches become finite, not only would I gladly spend the two iron and one-and-a-half pieces of coal even for just one lantern (especially if it was not only permanent but spread light twice as far as torches), but I'd still use torches for underground mine exploration because I can carry 64 sticks and 64 coal and have a total supply of 256 torches (which I can craft at will because they only need the 2x2 crafting grid).
Wood and coal are both fairly common items (Wood much more-so, but you get my point). Once you get into the game, it's quite common to find large veins of coal while searching for iron, gold, redstone, and diamond. Coal is NOT rare.
Iron is somewhat rarer than coal. You can actually run out of iron faster than you bring it in if you don't use it smartly, but it's not so rare that you'll never find the two bars you'll need to permanently light your humble home. That's why it's exactly what we should use to make permanent lights. It should be hard to get the resources to permanently light the entire world forever, but relatively simple to light one small house, or a little fenced off field, or what have you.
I think if you give this change a chance, you'll find that it's really nothing to worry about. If you're frugal with your torches (only using them while in large caves is a good start), you'll probably still end up with an excess of coal at the end of the month.
My idea is that you can re-light torches with flint and steel.
I'm still strongly opposed to temp torches, but I will say at least that I could tolerate it if this were in effect. Hell, if it gives F&S a use other than blatant vandalism, I'm up for it.
There, if you didn't see it the other 10 times. . .
Anyways, personally I think making the torches temporary is a good idea, and I see very few downsides to it if you guys would quit being so irrational. First of all, everybody is complaining about how "difficult" it would be to gather the resources for torches, when, from the crafting schematics that I've seen, actually wouldn't be as difficult as you guys are making it out to be. I've found iron as shallow as 5 blocks below sea level, in caves where the roof was completely exposed to the surface. Furthermore, the smelting process isn't as difficult or resource consuming as you guys are saying it is, and considering that you can use 2 planks (half of a log) to smelt all of the materials for one batch of lanterns it shouldn't be a problem. Also, it adds a matter of pacing and development into the game. At first, you will be using torches for a light source at night for vision and protection from mobs. As you start establishing a more permanent residency in the world, your mines will have undoubtedly expanded so that you have access to a number of resources, including your fabled iron. As for the problem with torches becoming useless once lanterns are accessible, we can solve this problem by simply having torches as a necessary component in making the lanterns. For instance:
[] []
[] []
and the lanterns will NOT be running on oil. That defeats the purpose of them being infinite light sources.
I also like the idea of torches slowly dying out over time (which I would prefer to be somewhere around two game weeks, not the 2-3 day stuff that I have seen being suggested), along with the prospect of the probability of them being given back depending on how long they have been used. I was also considering the thought of a mobile light source, until I saw the earlier post of how it would lag the game. If that wasn't a problem, then I would recommend that they be used as miner hats, which would be considerably dim (about redstone torch brightness, if not less) and would allow the miner to explore the cave to a limited degree. Maybe this miner hat could run on the oil suggested earlier, but I doubt it. Also, not only will this miner hat force the player to remove their protective helmet, but it will also limit their view, leaving them at a disadvantage during combat. Thus, people would be able to make evenly balanced choice over whether or not to use miner hats or simple torches.
If I bored you or you don't want to read this "essay" on torches, here's a brief summary:
-make torches necessary to make lanterns
-lanterns have a MUCH wider brightness than torches
-torches start to fade after a week, and will become incredibly dim after another
-how long a torch has been used will determine the probability of getting it back when destroyed
-mine hats: they will be very dim (about redstone torch brightness) and may run on oil
-lanterns aren't as hard to make as people are saying they will be
-lanterns will make 4 lanterns per batch created, and they will be stackable
-vote yes for temporary torches
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I voided my bowels in terror at the green faces leering out at me, taunting me.
There was a great bang.
I felt pain.
All went dark as the grimmest shade of death.
If I bored you or you don't want to read this "essay" on torches, here's a brief summary:
-make torches necessary to make lanterns
-lanterns have a MUCH wider brightness than torches
-torches start to fade after a week, and will become incredibly dim after another
-how long a torch has been used will determine the probability of getting it back when destroyed
-mine hats: they will be very dim (about redstone torch brightness) and may run on oil
-lanterns aren't as hard to make as people are saying they will be
-lanterns will make 4 lanterns per batch created, and they will be stackable
-vote yes for temporary torches
so You propose...
+ = 4x
and 2x + 2x + = 4x lanterns?
So how does turning a single torch into 4 lanterns make it last forever? And why does this make more sense then an oil lamp/lantern lasting forever. I never suggested the oil lamp last a limited time and I am not sure why anybody else would.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Minecraft since [Friday, March 19, 2010, 9:20:21 PM] (First indev world save)
I can't believe people are even considering this a legitimate argument. You're essentially asking people to exploit a one time fix that will probably only apply to one of your save files (even if not, we only have a limit of 5 anyway), and will never be usable any time after the update again. I'm sorry, is this supposed to be a long-term fix, or are you guys just spamming it to shut idiots up? Because it's not helping.
First of all, everybody is complaining about how "difficult" it would be to gather the resources for torches, when, from the crafting schematics that I've seen, actually wouldn't be as difficult as you guys are making it out to be.
The difficulty of finding the resources isn't the problem. It's the fact that several of them happen to be non-renewable, and this is more on account of the torch than the lantern - and honestly, I'm absolutely astounded that there are so few people that can't actually see any problem in using unreplaceable resources to fuel a temporary torch when there's a permanent alternative right around the corner that apparently according to you is almost as easy to make. It's called redundancy, people. Look it up.
Now on this lovely note of difficulty that people have been bringing up further back in the thread. Has it occurred to any of you that this is a family game, a thing for all ages? At least that's how it was last I looked it up. Irregardless, this isn't exactly making the game harder, just needlessly more convulted and repetitive, in a game where exploring areas where the torches are needed is already dangerous enough in itself without randomly having torches disappear. It's practically the equivalent of randomly destroying manmade blocks in the map and expecting the player to maintain them over time, citing structural decay or somesuch ********. It's realistic, sure, but it's not good gameplay.
And say what you will about the rarity of the particular resources involved in spite of their non-renewable nature, but throw that idea into SMP, where player numbers are multiplied and map space is limited, and it's very difficult not to see a major flaw with that plan over the long term.
Lanterns will be brighter, more difficult to make, and will be able to hang from ceilings.
at the moment that torches become temporary and lanterns are added, all torches will be transformed into lanterns, in order to save fortresses that rely on torches for light.
don't worry. Even if lanterns are too hard to make, you can still make lava an easy light source.
why not lanterns that you can hold so you dont have to have torches and stuff and as you walk it gives you all that light either like coal steal and flint and steal or somthing like that... i wouldnt know the recipe....
The difficulty of finding the resources isn't the problem. It's the fact that several of them happen to be non-renewable, and this is more on account of the torch than the lantern - and honestly, I'm absolutely astounded that there are so few people that can't actually see any problem in using unreplaceable resources to fuel a temporary torch when there's a permanent alternative right around the corner that apparently according to you is almost as easy to make. It's called redundancy, people. Look it up.Now on this lovely note of difficulty that people have been bringing up further back in the thread. Has it occurred to any of you that this is a family game, a thing for all ages? At least that's how it was last I looked it up. Irregardless, this isn't exactly making the game harder, just needlessly more convulted and repetitive, in a game where exploring areas where the torches are needed is already dangerous enough in itself without randomly having torches disappear. It's practically the equivalent of randomly destroying manmade blocks in the map and expecting the player to maintain them over time, citing structural decay or somesuch ********. It's realistic, sure, but it's not good gameplay.And say what you will about the rarity of the particular resources involved in spite of their non-renewable nature, but throw that idea into SMP, where player numbers are multiplied and map space is limited, and it's very difficult not to see a major flaw with that plan over the long term.
Who cares about the theoretical non-renewability? We have infinite maps, there is more coal in easy walking distance than you could hope to burn in a month of playing. It may have been a concern when we had limited maps, but it really isn't anymore. And I doubt torches would randomly disappear. They will likely disappear after a set time, in a fully predictable manner. It is not redundant becuase they fulfill different roles, and would have different resource costs accordingly. Torches will work great for high-volume, short-term lighting, such as exploring a cave or running a mine. Lanterns serve as a permanent source for your permanent bases. This is not redundancy. Putting a torch in a lantern is a bad idea; the only purpose it served was to satisfy people who said torches would be useless, and it wouldn't even do that.
Making torches decay with no permanent alternative would be a bad idea. That is realistic, but its not good gameplay. However, since it has been stated that this change will only occur after we have a permanent replacement, it is good gameplay. You have to choose between the cheap, temporary solution and the expensive, potentially inventory clogging permanent solution. This is less redundant than multiple materials of swords and tools. You are only complaining because you are used to permanent torches, and your style of play has grown to include them. Changing them to non-permanent will change how you have to play the game, so you are making random accusations about how it will ruin everything.
Who cares about the theoretical non-renewability? We have infinite maps, there is more coal in easy walking distance than you could hope to burn in a month of playing.
And say what you will about the rarity of the particular resources involved in spite of their non-renewable nature, but throw that idea into SMP, where player numbers are multiplied and map space is limited, and it's very difficult not to see a major flaw with that plan over the long term.
Just in case you missed it the first time.
It may have been a concern when we had limited maps, but it really isn't anymore. And I doubt torches would randomly disappear. They will likely disappear after a set time, in a fully predictable manner.
All the same, it's pointless busywork that really doesn't need to be in a game of this kind. It's unnecessary back-and-forth behaviour in a game that is ordinarily about simplicity and foregoing that kind of back-and-forth nature, save for resource gathering.
It is not redundant becuase they fulfill different roles, and would have different resource costs accordingly. Torches will work great for high-volume, short-term lighting, such as exploring a cave or running a mine. Lanterns serve as a permanent source for your permanent bases. This is not redundancy.
It is when you can just use the lantern for both to save time. Deeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp.
You are only complaining because you are used to permanent torches, and your style of play has grown to include them.
Not really, I'm complaining because Minecraft is usually not about having to replace **** all the time unless there's a genuinely good reason for it. "Because torches are ****" is not really a genuinely good reason.
Changing them to non-permanent will change how you have to play the game
That was never in question. The argument was whether it was for the better, and as far as I can see, it only adds needless frustration.
Mystify wrote:Who cares about the theoretical non-renewability? We have infinite maps, there is more coal in easy walking distance than you could hope to burn in a month of playing.
.
Quote from Blacklightning »
And say what you will about the rarity of the particular resources involved in spite of their non-renewable nature, but throw that idea into SMP, where player numbers are multiplied and map space is limited, and it's very difficult not to see a major flaw with that plan over the long term.Just in case you missed it the first time.
You can't just dismiss the point by declaring any comments in that vein invalid. I declare your claim to be invalid.
Quote from Blacklightning »
All the same, it's pointless busywork that really doesn't need to be in a game of this kind. It's unnecessary back-and-forth behaviour in a game that is ordinarily about simplicity and foregoing that kind of back-and-forth nature, save for resource gathering.
There shouldn't be back-and-forth behavior. You shouldn't use torches on areas you want to keep lit, and you don't need to light up every nook and cranny of the caves. Being able to persist lighting everyplace is part of what this change is supposed to prevent. Saying that it requires a lot of work and resources to do it doesn't make it a bad change, it means it does what it is meant to.
Quote from Blacklightning »
is when you can just use the lantern for both to save time. Deeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp.
You aren't supposed to be able to use the lantern for both. It should be prohibitive enough so you can't spam it like you do torches. Otherwise it would be pointless.
Quote from Blacklightning »
Not really, I'm complaining because Minecraft is usually not about having to replace **** all the time unless there's a genuinely good reason for it. "Because torches are ****" is not really a genuinely good reason.
Once again, you aren't supposed to be replacing torches in general. They are a temporary light source, and if you are trying to use them to persistantly light up an area you are doing it wrong. Additionally, minecraft is full of stuf you have to replace. How many times have you replaces your pickaxe? Your sword? Your armour? The entire premise of your statement is false, and the implications of how you are using torches after the change show that you are not shifting your play style to accommodate the change.
Quote from Blacklightning »
That was never in question. The argument was whether it was for the better, and as far as I can see, it only adds needless frustration.
But you don't seem to be changing how you play the game. You are simply adding in a step of replacing burnt-out torches. The idea that torches are there to keep areas lit over long periods of time will be changed with this change. There is only needless frustration because you seem to want to perform a needless task.
Embrace the fact that your mines will not be fully lit for all eternity. Let the torches go out after you are done exploring the area, put up lanterns in any areas that need to stay lit, and embrace the gameplay change. All of your problems are coming from fighting it and trying to play the same way as you used to.
For all the people that had trouble seeing it.
Also, you could smelt without coal for ages. I believe when furnaces were released, they ran on both fuels.
Wood and coal are both fairly common items (Wood much more-so, but you get my point). Once you get into the game, it's quite common to find large veins of coal while searching for iron, gold, redstone, and diamond. Coal is NOT rare.
Iron is somewhat rarer than coal. You can actually run out of iron faster than you bring it in if you don't use it smartly, but it's not so rare that you'll never find the two bars you'll need to permanently light your humble home. That's why it's exactly what we should use to make permanent lights. It should be hard to get the resources to permanently light the entire world forever, but relatively simple to light one small house, or a little fenced off field, or what have you.
I think if you give this change a chance, you'll find that it's really nothing to worry about. If you're frugal with your torches (only using them while in large caves is a good start), you'll probably still end up with an excess of coal at the end of the month.
like this
ceiling with lava
lower part of ceiling with glass.
Its brighter and cooler looking than torches or lanterns.
this guy is intelligent.
and for all yo people getting butt hurt about the finite torches.
Really, Ive been making lava walls just because I choose too, I has even thinking about making a greenhouse using lava light.
Playing Minecraft since [Friday, March 19, 2010, 9:20:21 PM] (First indev world save)
Thats because people are assholes that cant do anything else besides grief
Click here to see the list of awesome ideas I support!
There, if you didn't see it the other 10 times. . .
Anyways, personally I think making the torches temporary is a good idea, and I see very few downsides to it if you guys would quit being so irrational. First of all, everybody is complaining about how "difficult" it would be to gather the resources for torches, when, from the crafting schematics that I've seen, actually wouldn't be as difficult as you guys are making it out to be. I've found iron as shallow as 5 blocks below sea level, in caves where the roof was completely exposed to the surface. Furthermore, the smelting process isn't as difficult or resource consuming as you guys are saying it is, and considering that you can use 2 planks (half of a log) to smelt all of the materials for one batch of lanterns it shouldn't be a problem. Also, it adds a matter of pacing and development into the game. At first, you will be using torches for a light source at night for vision and protection from mobs. As you start establishing a more permanent residency in the world, your mines will have undoubtedly expanded so that you have access to a number of resources, including your fabled iron. As for the problem with torches becoming useless once lanterns are accessible, we can solve this problem by simply having torches as a necessary component in making the lanterns. For instance:
[] []
[] []
and the lanterns will NOT be running on oil. That defeats the purpose of them being infinite light sources.
I also like the idea of torches slowly dying out over time (which I would prefer to be somewhere around two game weeks, not the 2-3 day stuff that I have seen being suggested), along with the prospect of the probability of them being given back depending on how long they have been used. I was also considering the thought of a mobile light source, until I saw the earlier post of how it would lag the game. If that wasn't a problem, then I would recommend that they be used as miner hats, which would be considerably dim (about redstone torch brightness, if not less) and would allow the miner to explore the cave to a limited degree. Maybe this miner hat could run on the oil suggested earlier, but I doubt it. Also, not only will this miner hat force the player to remove their protective helmet, but it will also limit their view, leaving them at a disadvantage during combat. Thus, people would be able to make evenly balanced choice over whether or not to use miner hats or simple torches.
If I bored you or you don't want to read this "essay" on torches, here's a brief summary:
-make torches necessary to make lanterns
-lanterns have a MUCH wider brightness than torches
-torches start to fade after a week, and will become incredibly dim after another
-how long a torch has been used will determine the probability of getting it back when destroyed
-mine hats: they will be very dim (about redstone torch brightness) and may run on oil
-lanterns aren't as hard to make as people are saying they will be
-lanterns will make 4 lanterns per batch created, and they will be stackable
-vote yes for temporary torches
There was a great bang.
I felt pain.
All went dark as the grimmest shade of death.
some poems rhyme, this one doesn't.
so You propose...
+ = 4x
and 2x + 2x + = 4x lanterns?
So how does turning a single torch into 4 lanterns make it last forever? And why does this make more sense then an oil lamp/lantern lasting forever. I never suggested the oil lamp last a limited time and I am not sure why anybody else would.
Playing Minecraft since [Friday, March 19, 2010, 9:20:21 PM] (First indev world save)
The difficulty of finding the resources isn't the problem. It's the fact that several of them happen to be non-renewable, and this is more on account of the torch than the lantern - and honestly, I'm absolutely astounded that there are so few people that can't actually see any problem in using unreplaceable resources to fuel a temporary torch when there's a permanent alternative right around the corner that apparently according to you is almost as easy to make. It's called redundancy, people. Look it up.
Now on this lovely note of difficulty that people have been bringing up further back in the thread. Has it occurred to any of you that this is a family game, a thing for all ages? At least that's how it was last I looked it up. Irregardless, this isn't exactly making the game harder, just needlessly more convulted and repetitive, in a game where exploring areas where the torches are needed is already dangerous enough in itself without randomly having torches disappear. It's practically the equivalent of randomly destroying manmade blocks in the map and expecting the player to maintain them over time, citing structural decay or somesuch ********. It's realistic, sure, but it's not good gameplay.
And say what you will about the rarity of the particular resources involved in spite of their non-renewable nature, but throw that idea into SMP, where player numbers are multiplied and map space is limited, and it's very difficult not to see a major flaw with that plan over the long term.
why not lanterns that you can hold so you dont have to have torches and stuff and as you walk it gives you all that light either like coal steal and flint and steal or somthing like that... i wouldnt know the recipe....
Who cares about the theoretical non-renewability? We have infinite maps, there is more coal in easy walking distance than you could hope to burn in a month of playing. It may have been a concern when we had limited maps, but it really isn't anymore. And I doubt torches would randomly disappear. They will likely disappear after a set time, in a fully predictable manner. It is not redundant becuase they fulfill different roles, and would have different resource costs accordingly. Torches will work great for high-volume, short-term lighting, such as exploring a cave or running a mine. Lanterns serve as a permanent source for your permanent bases. This is not redundancy. Putting a torch in a lantern is a bad idea; the only purpose it served was to satisfy people who said torches would be useless, and it wouldn't even do that.
Making torches decay with no permanent alternative would be a bad idea. That is realistic, but its not good gameplay. However, since it has been stated that this change will only occur after we have a permanent replacement, it is good gameplay. You have to choose between the cheap, temporary solution and the expensive, potentially inventory clogging permanent solution. This is less redundant than multiple materials of swords and tools. You are only complaining because you are used to permanent torches, and your style of play has grown to include them. Changing them to non-permanent will change how you have to play the game, so you are making random accusations about how it will ruin everything.
Playing Minecraft since [Friday, March 19, 2010, 9:20:21 PM] (First indev world save)
All the same, it's pointless busywork that really doesn't need to be in a game of this kind. It's unnecessary back-and-forth behaviour in a game that is ordinarily about simplicity and foregoing that kind of back-and-forth nature, save for resource gathering.
It is when you can just use the lantern for both to save time. Deeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp.
Not really, I'm complaining because Minecraft is usually not about having to replace **** all the time unless there's a genuinely good reason for it. "Because torches are ****" is not really a genuinely good reason.
That was never in question. The argument was whether it was for the better, and as far as I can see, it only adds needless frustration.
But you don't seem to be changing how you play the game. You are simply adding in a step of replacing burnt-out torches. The idea that torches are there to keep areas lit over long periods of time will be changed with this change. There is only needless frustration because you seem to want to perform a needless task.
Embrace the fact that your mines will not be fully lit for all eternity. Let the torches go out after you are done exploring the area, put up lanterns in any areas that need to stay lit, and embrace the gameplay change. All of your problems are coming from fighting it and trying to play the same way as you used to.