That means when you're making dramatic changes (like, say, oh, re-writing the lighting engine, maybe?) it's highly beneficial to all concerned to wait until those changes are finalized BEFORE releasing the API.
They weren't re-writing the lighting engine 18 months ago, when they were "finishing up" the API, were they?
You can't use the current state of the game (lighting engine being re-written) to excuse them not releasing the API over a year ago. But nice try.
What I'm also fully aware of is how long they have been "working on it."
Yes. About a tenth of the time that goes into a typical game that reaches this many customers.
The problem is that they keep saying how important it is, and how much they want to do it, and at the same time, it's been YEARS and we still have basically nothing.
Nothing has been released. Do I seriously have to explain SVN Source Trees again? Because I'm not going to. It's a waste of time.
There's also people that have made simple "modloader" apps (see Forge and Risugami's stuff), and all the Bukkit stuff, etc. Yes, I realize that a fully-functional plugin API is more complex than that, but there's already been a number of random people (who AREN'T getting paid by Mojang) that have done a lot of similar work.
Except they all introduce breaking changes almost every month- Meaning they aren't an API at all... and if (like Bukkit) Basic functionality was impossible to write without doing things outside the API (using craftbukkit) then the API was basically a crappy modloader framework. At least they are working on fixing it. Basically, my point is: I can compile and run Java code from 1997, and I can run C# 1.0 code from 2003, but I can't use a bukkit plugin from a year ago because of breaking changes. The intention of the actual Mod API is to completely eliminate breaking changes. Modloader and Forge address different requirements- Modloader addresses loading of mods (as the name implies) without changing the jar, and Forge addresses making fun of mod authors that don't use Forge and instead putting those that copy other mods into theirs on a pedestal.
The fact of the matter is that it really seems that the Plugin API has fallen pretty far from the "top priority" list (if it was even ever on there in the first place). And people should really stop expecting to see it any time soon, if ever.
It is currently in development. It is not merged into the main code tree because it is not finished. I imagine whatever update eventually does get it is going to be an update on it's own- just the task of merging the changes with the main source tree is likely to be an undertaking. Presumably the Lighting rewrite is either occuring in the same branch. We'll probably get them both at once.
There is also the whole issue with the web-side framework, so their web-guy needs to essentially create ANOTHER API- one that is web-based and accessed by the game, and the game has to use that API to present information in it's UI and allow for downloading them. Additionally, there needs to be a UI that enumerates loaded plugins and allows the enabling and disabling of them on a per-world basis. Essentially the task goes far beyond simply creating a Plugin API, and is actually more of a framework. There is also the whole thing where they want to make the vanilla game act as a plugin itself- which I imagine is part of what is holding it back. But is still a good thing. The idea of an API is to allow plugin authors to create, well, plugins, that use the API to do new things. There are two ways to do it- create an API that sounds good but is missing a lot of important hook points and features that practically makes it useless, like the Twitter API, or create a core API, and then rework your entire content to work within that API framework, adding what you need for it along the way. The latter is far more likely to result in something usable for it's intended purpose than the former, and is the direction I believe they are working towards.
As for the game "not being ready," when is it going to be ready? They add new features (and in the process, create new bugs) faster than they are squishing old bugs (some of which have been around for months or even years). At this rate, the game is never going to be "ready" for the API.
I don't think it's a matter of the game itself being ready, but of the Mod API having to be complete, since they can't release it half-complete and introduce breaking changes later, since that defeats the purpose of the API in many ways.
I have been?
Doesn't matter when they announced it. If its not the latest news it doesn't really matter since you can't change the past. Latest news is looking optimistic though. I always think about the long term though.
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Don't play vanilla? You don't know **** about minecraft.
You can't say they've been working on this for two years. Regardless of earlier evidence you posted, Notch never worked on an API. He admitted that he let that slip a few days before the release. http://notch.tumblr....2848184253/soon
The next we hear about it is that Jeb wants to get it done by last March, I believe. He then started testing the waters as lead developer by making a couple of updates. After 1.2.5, the initial plan, as stated by Dinnerbone, was to complete it by 1.3. After that post, there apparently was a meeting that decided that there was a ton of work to do, such as the merge. The Mod API was then pushed back to, as many of us believed, 1.4 when that apparently wasn't the intent. https://twitter.com/...75831037202432
The second quote is my response to you from a day or so ago. You seem to have ignored it since it shows that work as only really started about a year ago...at least Notch's blog shows that it wasn't worked on prior to release.
I hope the API is released when any and all necesecary changes have been made so that said API will work as intended and not do something stupid. If that means not getting it until 5.1.1 I am okay with that as that means that they are putting in the time to make it function properly, so please use some reason and not get so mad at the 5(1+4,five,IV,8-3) person Dev team that is probably working its butt off to make sure the damn thing
works. So no it will most likely not be in 1.6 and that is okay because that allows for everything to be made to work.
Oh no, he called us fanboys and repeated his same old already-debated-to-death points of no substance! Everyone panic he called us fanboys! Oh no, I can't be a fanboy, its teh worst thing evar!!! I can't believe he won teh ar-goo-ment!
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So many fanboys in here. "dey r nt bein slow dey neva pomisd api eva!!!11!!".
It was promised 2 ing years ago, and they have set out SEVERAL release dates for it and they keep missing it again and again. At 1.3 they made themselves sound absolute certain that, "This time is it guys!" and even said that they wouldn't release it until the API was done and then, next thing we know, 1.3 is out with no API. And now, months after 1.3 was released, there's still no sign of it at all.
Can we keep this thread about discussing the API and not how bad mojang is for working on releasing a proper API?
Because that post has been echoed at least half a dozen times this thread alone. I sure I speak for more than just me when I say that it's getting old. Can you even explain why you wan't the API so bad?
Also the API was not planned for 1.3. Everyone knew that. You can't (read: can not) make a functional API when the entire games code is being shuffled like it was in the merge. Unless you want it to fail in which case you would complain even more about how much they suck at programming.
The only people who think the API is or has ever been "coming soon" out are the ones who don't understand either programming, game development, or how small mojang really is and how messed up minecraft really was.
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Don't play vanilla? You don't know **** about minecraft.
I'll admit that I didn't realize they were putting as much work into it as they apparently actually have been. It would seem that they just don't talk about their API progress nearly as much as they talk about all the other stuff they are doing, and I guess I haven't been following things closely enough to notice what they actually are doing.
Forgive my uninformed rant. In all honesty, I'm more annoyed by all the people that assume "the next update will be the API!" with no reason to think so other than they want it to be, and then get all crabby when it doesn't happen. My initial gripe was more of a "shut up and stop expecting it." The rant you quoted was in response to people that were just saying "shut up they are working on it!" without going into the more informative detail that you did.
Also the API was not planned for 1.3. Everyone knew that.
::sigh::
http://www.mojang.com/2012/07/minecraft-1-3-info-snapshot-w27/ Minecraft 1.3: The Ugly A couple of problems and expected features have been pushed to Minecraft 1.4. The most notable problem is the lighting issues causing black regions in the terrain. We’re looking into ways to solve this, but lighting is a very expensive calculation and we are struggling with finding a solution that doesn’t hurt framerate.
And the most notable missing feature is the modding API. Throwing out single-player was the first step in order to make the API possible, and that’s done now. We decided to release 1.3 without the API, because otherwise it would be an even longer wait for a Minecraft update.
So, it WAS planned to be in 1.3, but they "decided to release 1.3 without it" (if it was never planned for 1.3, they wouldn't have to "decide" anything, now would they?). It and a couple other things "have been pushed back to 1.4".
And here we are, 1.4.7, and no API. 1.5 is out soon, and... NO API.
Another point: The act of writing an API can reveal places that the code could be dramatically improved, since you are scrutinizing things much more closely and thinking about other ways that they can be used. Stopping the API work to improve the base code, rather than trying to write the API around it, will result in a stronger and longer-lasting program over all.
These days "Fanboy" seems to be a synonym for "Someone without an oversized sense of entitlement"
http://www.mojang.co...o-snapshot-w27/ Minecraft 1.3: The Ugly A couple of problems and expected features have been pushed to Minecraft 1.4. The most notable problem is the lighting issues causing black regions in the terrain. We’re looking into ways to solve this, but lighting is a very expensive calculation and we are struggling with finding a solution that doesn’t hurt framerate.
And the most notable missing feature is the modding API. Throwing out single-player was the first step in order to make the API possible, and that’s done now. We decided to release 1.3 without the API, because otherwise it would be an even longer wait for a Minecraft update.
So, it WAS planned to be in 1.3, but they "decided to release 1.3 without it" (if it was never planned for 1.3, they wouldn't have to "decide" anything, now would they?). It and a couple other things "have been pushed back to 1.4".
And here we are, 1.4.7, and no API. 1.5 is out soon, and... NO API.
http://www.mojang.co...o-snapshot-w27/ Minecraft 1.3: The Ugly A couple of problems and expected features have been pushed to Minecraft 1.4. The most notable problem is the lighting issues causing black regions in the terrain. We’re looking into ways to solve this, but lighting is a very expensive calculation and we are struggling with finding a solution that doesn’t hurt framerate.
And the most notable missing feature is the modding API. Throwing out single-player was the first step in order to make the API possible, and that’s done now. We decided to release 1.3 without the API, because otherwise it would be an even longer wait for a Minecraft update.
So, it WAS planned to be in 1.3, but they "decided to release 1.3 without it" (if it was never planned for 1.3, they wouldn't have to "decide" anything, now would they?). It and a couple other things "have been pushed back to 1.4".
And here we are, 1.4.7, and no API. 1.5 is out soon, and... NO API.
No. 1.3 was the first step towards the api, at least thats how I "interpreted" that post. See what I did there. And it says right in your post that it would have taken too long for an update to come out if they were going to wait for the API. Did you want to wait over a year for one update? I strongly doubt that. This is minecraft, features ALWAYS get pushed back, and that's not exclusive to minecraft either. Nearly every game ships with missing features.
Also since when does "planning" mean that something is going to happen no matter what. How many times do plans fall through. Get it through your thick head that "planning" does not mean anything. This is game development, not your allowance. Stop acting entitled.
BTW The api already exists. You can go look at what little there is of it, but it will not get major work done until its possible.
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Don't play vanilla? You don't know **** about minecraft.
http://www.mojang.co...o-snapshot-w27/ Minecraft 1.3: The Ugly A couple of problems and expected features have been pushed to Minecraft 1.4. The most notable problem is the lighting issues causing black regions in the terrain. We’re looking into ways to solve this, but lighting is a very expensive calculation and we are struggling with finding a solution that doesn’t hurt framerate.
And the most notable missing feature is the modding API. Throwing out single-player was the first step in order to make the API possible, and that’s done now. We decided to release 1.3 without the API, because otherwise it would be an even longer wait for a Minecraft update.
So, it WAS planned to be in 1.3, but they "decided to release 1.3 without it" (if it was never planned for 1.3, they wouldn't have to "decide" anything, now would they?). It and a couple other things "have been pushed back to 1.4".
And here we are, 1.4.7, and no API. 1.5 is out soon, and... NO API.
Getting damn tired of quoting myself to you. READ THE LINKS.
After that post, there apparently was a meeting that decided that there was a ton of work to do, such as the merge. The Mod API was then pushed back to, as many of us believed, 1.4 when that apparently wasn't the intent. https://twitter.com/...75831037202432
Within a month of 1.4 development, Jeb said the API was not going to be in 1.4 which seems to imply that the post from the Mojang website was interpreted wrong and it wasn't their intent to release it exactly in 1.4. That's about a month into development of 1.4 or 3 snapshots until that was announced.
Also, as Dinnerbone stated in the other tweet, they never said that the API was going to be in 1.5. Unless you find a source more current that that one, please stop about these promised releases.
Another point: The act of writing an API can reveal places that the code could be dramatically improved, since you are scrutinizing things much more closely and thinking about other ways that they can be used. Stopping the API work to improve the base code, rather than trying to write the API around it, will result in a stronger and longer-lasting program over all.
These days "Fanboy" seems to be a synonym for "Someone without an oversized sense of entitlement"
Very well put.
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Well, that's Mojang for ya, promising stuff, and when they said its gonna come out? well, sorry, just gonna have to wait until they say its gonna come out, which'll be never!
Oh, also, dont even get me started on what a half assed dimension the End is.
Lump in bad customer support with what mojang is now you get Nexon. Half assing things and pushing crap back...
Sethbling's video on the new feature from the snapshot:
Basically, they made the code more modular so you can attach tileEntities (like chest contents, or mob spawner settings) to fallingSand entities (which you can create with spawners). This is one of those completely unmentioned changes that is part of making the API have maximum functionality and usefulness.
If you can't see how that's relevant, I'd vote to end your involvement in the thread, because you have no concept of what you have to go through to determine that's a feature that needs to be added.
They weren't re-writing the lighting engine 18 months ago, when they were "finishing up" the API, were they?
You can't use the current state of the game (lighting engine being re-written) to excuse them not releasing the API over a year ago. But nice try.
If they knew there were likely significant changes coming soon, they were right to hold off on the API.
Remember the merge in 1.3? That was the first step towards the api. Things take time.
Dill with it.
Yes. About a tenth of the time that goes into a typical game that reaches this many customers.
Nothing has been released. Do I seriously have to explain SVN Source Trees again? Because I'm not going to. It's a waste of time.
Except they all introduce breaking changes almost every month- Meaning they aren't an API at all... and if (like Bukkit) Basic functionality was impossible to write without doing things outside the API (using craftbukkit) then the API was basically a crappy modloader framework. At least they are working on fixing it. Basically, my point is: I can compile and run Java code from 1997, and I can run C# 1.0 code from 2003, but I can't use a bukkit plugin from a year ago because of breaking changes. The intention of the actual Mod API is to completely eliminate breaking changes. Modloader and Forge address different requirements- Modloader addresses loading of mods (as the name implies) without changing the jar, and Forge addresses making fun of mod authors that don't use Forge and instead putting those that copy other mods into theirs on a pedestal.
It is currently in development. It is not merged into the main code tree because it is not finished. I imagine whatever update eventually does get it is going to be an update on it's own- just the task of merging the changes with the main source tree is likely to be an undertaking. Presumably the Lighting rewrite is either occuring in the same branch. We'll probably get them both at once.
There is also the whole issue with the web-side framework, so their web-guy needs to essentially create ANOTHER API- one that is web-based and accessed by the game, and the game has to use that API to present information in it's UI and allow for downloading them. Additionally, there needs to be a UI that enumerates loaded plugins and allows the enabling and disabling of them on a per-world basis. Essentially the task goes far beyond simply creating a Plugin API, and is actually more of a framework. There is also the whole thing where they want to make the vanilla game act as a plugin itself- which I imagine is part of what is holding it back. But is still a good thing. The idea of an API is to allow plugin authors to create, well, plugins, that use the API to do new things. There are two ways to do it- create an API that sounds good but is missing a lot of important hook points and features that practically makes it useless, like the Twitter API, or create a core API, and then rework your entire content to work within that API framework, adding what you need for it along the way. The latter is far more likely to result in something usable for it's intended purpose than the former, and is the direction I believe they are working towards.
I don't think it's a matter of the game itself being ready, but of the Mod API having to be complete, since they can't release it half-complete and introduce breaking changes later, since that defeats the purpose of the API in many ways.
I have been?
Doesn't matter when they announced it. If its not the latest news it doesn't really matter since you can't change the past. Latest news is looking optimistic though. I always think about the long term though.
The second quote is my response to you from a day or so ago. You seem to have ignored it since it shows that work as only really started about a year ago...at least Notch's blog shows that it wasn't worked on prior to release.
works. So no it will most likely not be in 1.6 and that is okay because that allows for everything to be made to work.
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Can we keep this thread about discussing the API and not how bad mojang is for working on releasing a proper API?
Because that post has been echoed at least half a dozen times this thread alone. I sure I speak for more than just me when I say that it's getting old. Can you even explain why you wan't the API so bad?
Also the API was not planned for 1.3. Everyone knew that. You can't (read: can not) make a functional API when the entire games code is being shuffled like it was in the merge. Unless you want it to fail in which case you would complain even more about how much they suck at programming.
The only people who think the API is or has ever been "coming soon" out are the ones who don't understand either programming, game development, or how small mojang really is and how messed up minecraft really was.
Forgive my uninformed rant. In all honesty, I'm more annoyed by all the people that assume "the next update will be the API!" with no reason to think so other than they want it to be, and then get all crabby when it doesn't happen. My initial gripe was more of a "shut up and stop expecting it." The rant you quoted was in response to people that were just saying "shut up they are working on it!" without going into the more informative detail that you did.
Ah, I see you like Forge about as much as I do.
EDIT: So there's a profanity filter on these forums now? And an excessively strict one apparently, given what it filtered.
::sigh::
http://www.mojang.com/2012/07/minecraft-1-3-info-snapshot-w27/
Minecraft 1.3: The Ugly
A couple of problems and expected features have been pushed to Minecraft 1.4. The most notable problem is the lighting issues causing black regions in the terrain. We’re looking into ways to solve this, but lighting is a very expensive calculation and we are struggling with finding a solution that doesn’t hurt framerate.
And the most notable missing feature is the modding API. Throwing out single-player was the first step in order to make the API possible, and that’s done now. We decided to release 1.3 without the API, because otherwise it would be an even longer wait for a Minecraft update.
So, it WAS planned to be in 1.3, but they "decided to release 1.3 without it" (if it was never planned for 1.3, they wouldn't have to "decide" anything, now would they?). It and a couple other things "have been pushed back to 1.4".
And here we are, 1.4.7, and no API. 1.5 is out soon, and... NO API.
These days "Fanboy" seems to be a synonym for "Someone without an oversized sense of entitlement"
And that was a good decision on their part.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
No. 1.3 was the first step towards the api, at least thats how I "interpreted" that post. See what I did there. And it says right in your post that it would have taken too long for an update to come out if they were going to wait for the API. Did you want to wait over a year for one update? I strongly doubt that. This is minecraft, features ALWAYS get pushed back, and that's not exclusive to minecraft either. Nearly every game ships with missing features.
Also since when does "planning" mean that something is going to happen no matter what. How many times do plans fall through. Get it through your thick head that "planning" does not mean anything. This is game development, not your allowance. Stop acting entitled.
BTW The api already exists. You can go look at what little there is of it, but it will not get major work done until its possible.
Getting damn tired of quoting myself to you. READ THE LINKS.
Within a month of 1.4 development, Jeb said the API was not going to be in 1.4 which seems to imply that the post from the Mojang website was interpreted wrong and it wasn't their intent to release it exactly in 1.4. That's about a month into development of 1.4 or 3 snapshots until that was announced.
Also, as Dinnerbone stated in the other tweet, they never said that the API was going to be in 1.5. Unless you find a source more current that that one, please stop about these promised releases.
Very well put.
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Lump in bad customer support with what mojang is now you get Nexon. Half assing things and pushing crap back...
No interpretation needed.
"We decided to release 1.3 without the API". Nothing there about "first steps".
Exactly. Thanks for agreeing with me.
Um, what? The whole point of planning....
never mind. You obviously don't get it.
Oh, that's cute. You think I'm a kid. And that when I expect a promised feature I'm acting "entitled".
Basically, they made the code more modular so you can attach tileEntities (like chest contents, or mob spawner settings) to fallingSand entities (which you can create with spawners). This is one of those completely unmentioned changes that is part of making the API have maximum functionality and usefulness.
If you can't see how that's relevant, I'd vote to end your involvement in the thread, because you have no concept of what you have to go through to determine that's a feature that needs to be added.
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