There are quite a few adventure maps that will be broken with this needless tinkering. especially the ones that need you to grow a jungle tree to use as a ladder. Adventure maps are made with the idea of precision. Only allow the players so much. this nerf makes that so much harder.
Also, apparently it took a few people almost a stack of bone meal just to grow a large jungle tree. they were robbed by the randomness, and a possible intermittent bug.
Randomness is freaking awful. I hate randomness. I'd rather the crops take 7 bonemeal ALWAYS, than a random number.
And to all the people saying "You people are never happy" you're making a bad argument. While true that the community as a whole may never be happy (due to the rule that "you can't please everyone") specific people each have an opinion, and some outcome that will make them happy.
For the record, I never complained about the initial change to bonemeal. I didn't feel it was necessary, but didn't really care either way. But this "random" crap has got to go. Pick a fixed number (I don't care what it is) and stick with it.
How about you guys just go out and admit that you believe every single option, that's not the one you chose, is a terrible design choice?
First they change bonemeal so that you need more(This is the exact same as before. You just need a different number of bonemeal per plant). Then they make it less reliable in exchange for decreasing the general amount required.
I personally didn't care what system was used as long as it was not random. This makes the dispenser ability to use bone meal much less useful to me because you can't be sure how many uses are needed to get your crops to an appropriate level. That might be ok if you could somehow detect what stage your plant is at but that isn't really possible for anything but trees. If they added a crop growth stage detector I'd be happy again because then you could automate growing all your crops to full growth again. Randomization even makes a system where you have to manually push a button for each dose on your farm less useful because the plants will all grow at a different rate and waste a ton of bone meal unless you do each plot individually (at which point you might as well just spread it with your hand). I suppose the work around is to set everything to dump like 10 doses to ensure it works no matter what. I should be ok with that since I didn't care what amount of doses was required before but the loss of precision is still annoying despite that logic.
In other words with this tweak the insta-growers are now a bit happier, the "bone meal is too abundant" crowd got a little less happy, and the redstone/automation crowd got much less happy. I guess the inst-growers were a larger than the other two.
Compared to the randomness of enchanting, the idea that growing crops takes an average of three bone meal is somehow horrible is laughable. Especially the idea that said randomness somehow "destroys" automation. I mean, seriously. Just make a redstone circuit that sends four pulses to the bone meal dispenser before activating the piston to harvest the wheat. You're not going to waste bone meal since you can't over-fertilize crops.
I like the little bit of randomness to speeding crop growth. It raises the opportunity cost for doing so, which makes decisions in the early game more meaningful. Do I keep keep an average of eight bones stored for when I find melon seeds (with another eight for pumpkin seeds) to speed up stem growth, or do i keep more on hand to guarantee that my initial patch is up and running right away. In the original system, even without methods of getting bones while AFKing, I had more than enough bones for what I used them for.
I'd also like to see a narrower, but more expensive, cost for speeding tree growth. A range of 6-8 sounds better to me than 2-7.
A little bit of randomness is good. It adds variety to the game. It's huge amounts of randomness (enchantment system, I'm looking at you) that I find extremely frustrating.
1 typo on letters that are close? My grammar is bad terribly bad. English isn't the world's native language.
And you should learn how to not use strawman arguments:
"No one asked for randomization of bonemeal. Now you're saying that we shoudn't complain because Mojang did something that no one asked for. Why we shouldn't say what we want?"
So expressing my opinion means that I'm forcing Mojang to do what I want. Strawman arguments everywhere.
That was a typo? What was it supposed to say? Anyways, I know English isn't the world's first language, but it is the Minecraft Forum's first language. Also, maybe you should look up what a straw man argument is before you accuse people of using it. A straw man argument is "refuting" a point by replacing it with a similar yet different point and refuting that one instead, without ever refuting the original point.
All I did was mention that you should learn how to use grammar after refuting your point. There's a difference between "expressing your opinion" and ranting about how a feature was added that you didn't ask for.
After reading the first few pages of this thread, I thought the randomisation was completely random and had no minimum and maximum by the way everyone was acting
Once I saw the actual amounts I was flabbergasted.
This randomness is most certainly not bad. Maybe a little for trees, (3-5 instead maybe) but 2-3 for crops is not bad randomisation. Just treat the amount required as three and treat two as a lucky bonus.
Leave crops like this. Trees are still fine, but a change is appropriate.
That was a typo? What was it supposed to say? Anyways, I know English isn't the world's first language, but it is the Minecraft Forum's first language. Also, maybe you should look up what a straw man argument is before you accuse people of using it. A straw man argument is "refuting" a point by replacing it with a similar yet different point and refuting that one instead, without ever refuting the original point.
All I did was mention that you should learn how to use grammar after refuting your point. There's a difference between "expressing your opinion" and ranting about how a feature was added that you didn't ask for.
One typo. My whole argument is bad. You keep attacking my point of view because my grammar is bad. You never answer back to me about bonemeal.
I said that I think it would be better if Mojang impletented a single number. Then you siad I was forcing Mojang to do what I wanted. Fits into the definition of strawman.
So now every single negative criticism is ranting and expressing opinion must be always positive?
I would be happy if they made it a single number. It will work best on automated farms and adventure maps. Plain simple. And to the people saying bonemeal was overpowered. Really? 1 bone made 1 bread. And meat is easier to get and recovers more hunger.
One typo. My whole argument is bad. You keep attacking my point of view because my grammar is bad. You never answer back to me about bonemeal.
I said that I think it would be better if Mojang impletented a single number. Then you siad I was forcing Mojang to do what I wanted. Fits into the definition of strawman.
So now every single negative criticism is ranting and expressing opinion must be always positive?
I would be happy if they made it a single number. It will work best on automated farms and adventure maps. Plain simple. And to the people saying bonemeal was overpowered. Really? 1 bone made 1 bread. And meat is easier to get and recovers more hunger.
No, I'm not attacking your point of view because your grammar is bad. Your point of view, as quoted from your original post, is "No one asked for randomization of bonemeal." All I was attempting to say was that you can't make an argument like that. No one asked for a lot of stuff that's in minecraft right now. Are you mad about that? So yes, you can have a negative criticism, but it must be based on something other than the fact that you didn't ask for it.
If it took anywhere between 1 and 7 bonemeal to grow wheat then I agree that would be pretty lame, but geez, is 2-3 really that bad? As posted above, "Just treat the amount required as three and treat two as a lucky bonus."
Lastly, you must really suck at farming if meat is easier for you to get than bread.
Realism is a horrible claim. Realism should not be a reason to nerf something, otherwise we would have thousands of people wanting to nerf every single aspect of Minecraft because it isn't realistic.
Using one Bonemeal to grow a plant makes sense in Minecraft. It made sense for over a year.
Both sides only have opinion to back up their claims. One side's opinion is that the nerf was bad because it harmed new spawns and or was an unnecessary change. A valid opinion. The other side enjoys the challenge it adds, another valid opinion.
This is all opinion, and all evidence is speculative at best. People who support the nerf cannot quantify the difficulty it adds, and those who dislike the change cannot provide static proof that it harms new spawns, or was unnecessary.
There is no hard data for either side to present.
The hard data is present on the side of anti-nerf because the anti-nerf side knows that this adds no challenge whatsoever, because, unless you fail gathering 101, you'll always have more than enough to food to survive without Bonemeal. There is more than enough food sources in the overworld to render such a Bonemeal nerf pointless and, indeed, since they reduced it to 2-3 Bonemeal, there is still no difficulty added in surviving off of Bonemeal.
I could get numbers to provide the abundance of food sources available to the player, but, since I'm sure you know how common food is, I don't find it necessary.
It is not set in stone untill the 1.5 update. and not even then. there will be 1.5.2, 1.5.3, 1.5.4,1.5.5 and so on. Each will be an opportunity to remove this horrid, needless nerf.
Mojang has probably (unfortunately) established that the bonemeal will never be the same as it was before. They have just released a compromise with the current snapshot. The problem I've been seeing the most is the randomness specifically for trees. I also think randomness was unessecary anything is better than 7 for crops....
Realism is a horrible claim. Realism should not be a reason to nerf something, otherwise we would have thousands of people wanting to nerf every single aspect of Minecraft because it isn't realistic.
Using one Bonemeal to grow a plant makes sense in Minecraft. It made sense for over a year.
The hard data is present on the side of anti-nerf because the anti-nerf side knows that this adds no challenge whatsoever, because, unless you fail gathering 101, you'll always have more than enough to food to survive without Bonemeal. There is more than enough food sources in the overworld to render such a Bonemeal nerf pointless and, indeed, since they reduced it to 2-3 Bonemeal, there is still no difficulty added in surviving off of Bonemeal.
I could get numbers to provide the abundance of food sources available to the player, but, since I'm sure you know how common food is, I don't find it necessary.
Realism is a horrible claim. Realism should not be a reason to nerf something, otherwise we would have thousands of people wanting to nerf every single aspect of Minecraft because it isn't realistic.
Using one Bonemeal to grow a plant makes sense in Minecraft. It made sense for over a year.
The hard data is present on the side of anti-nerf because the anti-nerf side knows that this adds no challenge whatsoever, because, unless you fail gathering 101, you'll always have more than enough to food to survive without Bonemeal. There is more than enough food sources in the overworld to render such a Bonemeal nerf pointless and, indeed, since they reduced it to 2-3 Bonemeal, there is still no difficulty added in surviving off of Bonemeal.
I could get numbers to provide the abundance of food sources available to the player, but, since I'm sure you know how common food is, I don't find it necessary.
It is relative to gameplay style. MublesMiner has said that he refuses to kill animals before he begins to breed them. I grow all my food naturally. Some players are minecraft vegetarians, some rely only on spider eyes and rotten flesh. The food situation is different per style. Its relative, and subject. Ergo, this debate is of opinions.
It is relative to gameplay style. MublesMiner has said that he refuses to kill animals before he begins to breed them. I grow all my food naturally. Some players are minecraft vegetarians, some rely only on spider eyes and rotten flesh. The food situation is different per style. Its relative, and subject. Ergo, this debate is of opinions.
Quit taking my quotes out of context, I'm getting tired of it. I said I won't kill 1 out of 2 cows in all the land before breeding them, as then with only 1 cow, breeding can't happen.
I was hoping you would quit being so damn immature once the other snapshot hit. Really you shouldn't be posting unrelated things about others, its disrespectful
Also you talking about its different play-styles is funny, considering you were saying anything but this before.
...On another note, your thing of thinking getting wheat was too easy was, as you say, an opinion.
It is relative to gameplay style. MublesMiner has said that he refuses to kill animals before he begins to breed them. I grow all my food naturally. Some players are minecraft vegetarians, some rely only on spider eyes and rotten flesh. The food situation is different per style. Its relative, and subject. Ergo, this debate is of opinions.
And none of this renders Bonemeal OP because you're forcing restrictions upon yourself.
In the same way, you can restrict yourself from using Bonemeal if you actually think that it will make a difference in how easy it is to get food. Don't force your restrictions on others.
And, if I may remind you, you don't use Bonemeal to grow food, and, yet, your chests are still stuffed to the brim with food. Nerfing Bonemeal does nothing for you.
And none of this renders Bonemeal OP because you're forcing restrictions upon yourself.
In the same way, you can restrict yourself from using Bonemeal if you actually think that it will make a difference in how easy it is to get food. Don't force your restrictions on others.
And, if I may remind you, you don't use Bonemeal to grow food, and, yet, your chests are still stuffed to the brim with food. Nerfing Bonemeal does nothing for you.
Nothing for me in that world, maybe. That one world, out of the infinite amount of worlds I have created in the past and may create in the future....
Not to mention I may get lazy because of all the food and forget to get more, and get into some trouble. Or a creeper could blow that chest up. All kinds of stuff could happen.
Nothing for me in that world, maybe. That one world, out of the infinite amount of worlds I have created in the past and may create in the future....
You'll still be just fine. Never touch Bonemeal, and you'll still have ever-expanding stocks of Wheat, Potatoes, and Carrots after the first couple of in-game days.
Not to mention I may get lazy because of all the food and forget to get more, and get into some trouble. Or a creeper could blow that chest up. All kinds of stuff could happen.
I actually think that you are far too smart to make such a mistake as to, somehow, run out of food.
Even if a Creeper does blow it up... whats two logs to make another chest?
Nothing for me in that world, maybe. That one world, out of the infinite amount of worlds I have created in the past and may create in the future....
That's a really limp argument.
In-fact this reminds me of an alcoholic saying "I can quit anytime I want!".
I laughed.
Also if you have a large settlement, stores of food, and somehow a creeper hits it despite also diamond tools and presumably tons of cobblestone, you deserve NO sympathy xP
You'll still be just fine. Never touch Bonemeal, and you'll still have ever-expanding stocks of Wheat, Potatoes, and Carrots after the first couple of in-game days.
I actually think that you are far too smart to make such a mistake as to, somehow, run out of food.
Even if a Creeper does blow it up... whats two logs to make another chest?
When the ocean biomes first hit the scene I was obsessed with doing generated survivor islands. I definitely died of hunger on accident a dozen times, easy. And I also obsess with the music discs, I have never had a world when I've had all of them at one time. So I get pretty obnoxiously stupid/courageous when I'm hunting them. It has led to some horrible explosions, the loss of life, and ruining an entire base (including the food stock) on one of my more recent worlds.
When the ocean biomes first hit the scene I was obsessed with doing generated survivor islands. I definitely died of hunger on accident a dozen times, easy. And I also obsess with the music discs, I have never had a world when I've had all of them at one time. So I get pretty obnoxiously stupid/courageous when I'm hunting them. It has led to some horrible explosions, the loss of life, and ruining an entire base (including the food stock) on one of my more recent worlds.
Exactly.
Randomness isn't good.
Don't use your personal grudge against automation to try to justify a nerf.
Let's not forget hoppers and droppers, also showing that Mojang is allowing purposefuly more and more automation,
And to all the people saying "You people are never happy" you're making a bad argument. While true that the community as a whole may never be happy (due to the rule that "you can't please everyone") specific people each have an opinion, and some outcome that will make them happy.
For the record, I never complained about the initial change to bonemeal. I didn't feel it was necessary, but didn't really care either way. But this "random" crap has got to go. Pick a fixed number (I don't care what it is) and stick with it.
I personally didn't care what system was used as long as it was not random. This makes the dispenser ability to use bone meal much less useful to me because you can't be sure how many uses are needed to get your crops to an appropriate level. That might be ok if you could somehow detect what stage your plant is at but that isn't really possible for anything but trees. If they added a crop growth stage detector I'd be happy again because then you could automate growing all your crops to full growth again. Randomization even makes a system where you have to manually push a button for each dose on your farm less useful because the plants will all grow at a different rate and waste a ton of bone meal unless you do each plot individually (at which point you might as well just spread it with your hand). I suppose the work around is to set everything to dump like 10 doses to ensure it works no matter what. I should be ok with that since I didn't care what amount of doses was required before but the loss of precision is still annoying despite that logic.
In other words with this tweak the insta-growers are now a bit happier, the "bone meal is too abundant" crowd got a little less happy, and the redstone/automation crowd got much less happy. I guess the inst-growers were a larger than the other two.
I like the little bit of randomness to speeding crop growth. It raises the opportunity cost for doing so, which makes decisions in the early game more meaningful. Do I keep keep an average of eight bones stored for when I find melon seeds (with another eight for pumpkin seeds) to speed up stem growth, or do i keep more on hand to guarantee that my initial patch is up and running right away. In the original system, even without methods of getting bones while AFKing, I had more than enough bones for what I used them for.
I'd also like to see a narrower, but more expensive, cost for speeding tree growth. A range of 6-8 sounds better to me than 2-7.
A little bit of randomness is good. It adds variety to the game. It's huge amounts of randomness (enchantment system, I'm looking at you) that I find extremely frustrating.
That was a typo? What was it supposed to say? Anyways, I know English isn't the world's first language, but it is the Minecraft Forum's first language. Also, maybe you should look up what a straw man argument is before you accuse people of using it. A straw man argument is "refuting" a point by replacing it with a similar yet different point and refuting that one instead, without ever refuting the original point.
All I did was mention that you should learn how to use grammar after refuting your point. There's a difference between "expressing your opinion" and ranting about how a feature was added that you didn't ask for.
Also, read this. ^^
One typo. My whole argument is bad. You keep attacking my point of view because my grammar is bad. You never answer back to me about bonemeal.
I said that I think it would be better if Mojang impletented a single number. Then you siad I was forcing Mojang to do what I wanted. Fits into the definition of strawman.
So now every single negative criticism is ranting and expressing opinion must be always positive?
I would be happy if they made it a single number. It will work best on automated farms and adventure maps. Plain simple. And to the people saying bonemeal was overpowered. Really? 1 bone made 1 bread. And meat is easier to get and recovers more hunger.
No, I'm not attacking your point of view because your grammar is bad. Your point of view, as quoted from your original post, is "No one asked for randomization of bonemeal." All I was attempting to say was that you can't make an argument like that. No one asked for a lot of stuff that's in minecraft right now. Are you mad about that? So yes, you can have a negative criticism, but it must be based on something other than the fact that you didn't ask for it.
If it took anywhere between 1 and 7 bonemeal to grow wheat then I agree that would be pretty lame, but geez, is 2-3 really that bad? As posted above, "Just treat the amount required as three and treat two as a lucky bonus."
Lastly, you must really suck at farming if meat is easier for you to get than bread.
Using one Bonemeal to grow a plant makes sense in Minecraft. It made sense for over a year.
The hard data is present on the side of anti-nerf because the anti-nerf side knows that this adds no challenge whatsoever, because, unless you fail gathering 101, you'll always have more than enough to food to survive without Bonemeal. There is more than enough food sources in the overworld to render such a Bonemeal nerf pointless and, indeed, since they reduced it to 2-3 Bonemeal, there is still no difficulty added in surviving off of Bonemeal.
I could get numbers to provide the abundance of food sources available to the player, but, since I'm sure you know how common food is, I don't find it necessary.
Mojang has probably (unfortunately) established that the bonemeal will never be the same as it was before. They have just released a compromise with the current snapshot. The problem I've been seeing the most is the randomness specifically for trees. I also think randomness was unessecary anything is better than 7 for crops....
Oh hell yes.
It is relative to gameplay style. MublesMiner has said that he refuses to kill animals before he begins to breed them. I grow all my food naturally. Some players are minecraft vegetarians, some rely only on spider eyes and rotten flesh. The food situation is different per style. Its relative, and subject. Ergo, this debate is of opinions.
Quit taking my quotes out of context, I'm getting tired of it. I said I won't kill 1 out of 2 cows in all the land before breeding them, as then with only 1 cow, breeding can't happen.
I was hoping you would quit being so damn immature once the other snapshot hit. Really you shouldn't be posting unrelated things about others, its disrespectful
Also you talking about its different play-styles is funny, considering you were saying anything but this before.
...On another note, your thing of thinking getting wheat was too easy was, as you say, an opinion.
In the same way, you can restrict yourself from using Bonemeal if you actually think that it will make a difference in how easy it is to get food. Don't force your restrictions on others.
And, if I may remind you, you don't use Bonemeal to grow food, and, yet, your chests are still stuffed to the brim with food. Nerfing Bonemeal does nothing for you.
Nothing for me in that world, maybe. That one world, out of the infinite amount of worlds I have created in the past and may create in the future....
Not to mention I may get lazy because of all the food and forget to get more, and get into some trouble. Or a creeper could blow that chest up. All kinds of stuff could happen.
I actually think that you are far too smart to make such a mistake as to, somehow, run out of food.
Even if a Creeper does blow it up... whats two logs to make another chest?
That's a really limp argument.
In-fact this reminds me of an alcoholic saying "I can quit anytime I want!".
I laughed.
Also if you have a large settlement, stores of food, and somehow a creeper hits it despite also diamond tools and presumably tons of cobblestone, you deserve NO sympathy xP
When the ocean biomes first hit the scene I was obsessed with doing generated survivor islands. I definitely died of hunger on accident a dozen times, easy. And I also obsess with the music discs, I have never had a world when I've had all of them at one time. So I get pretty obnoxiously stupid/courageous when I'm hunting them. It has led to some horrible explosions, the loss of life, and ruining an entire base (including the food stock) on one of my more recent worlds.
I love minecraft.
It kept me alive a few times. Accidentally killing both cows I bred from. Whoops.