The difference between a discussion and an argument (or at least the sense in which "argument" is being used here) lies in the attitudes and behavior of the participants.
Participants go into a discussion knowing that others might have valid opinions and that their own opinion might not be the gospel, and they are open to changing that opinion if and when faced with well-reasoned arguments (different "argument" here!) to the contrary. This willingness to be proven wrong is key. If all participants come armed with this willingness, they will listen to and respect the opinions of others, even if they don't agree with them.
Participants in an argument do not have this willingness to be proven wrong, so they generally end up talking past each other. They do not believe that the opinions of others are valid, so there is no need to apply logic or reasoning. At best you get retroactive attempts to justify positions that are already fixed, as opposed to arriving at positions through logical deduction. Once the participants abandon all pretense of logic or justification, you generally end up with a flame war as participants begin attacking other participants instead of their arguments.
In reality, nobody likes to be proven wrong, so true discussion rarely happens. It's the nature of human psychology.
Now, as far as the ender chests go, I haven't used them yet because I don't have the latest snapshot installed. But when I first heard about them I thought they sounded like a great idea. I play mostly SMP, and I like the idea of having a community chest. Then again, I also play on a server that only allows people I trust--we have no griefers or trouble-makers. On an open server, ender chests would be extremely problematic.
I like the idea of them in SSP as well, and initially I disagreed with those who thought they were overpowered. However, after you_are_mad's post above (#32), I can see the point. I think it would indeed remove a lot of the challenge (and tension and excitement) from mining if you could just snap the chests up again at a moment's notice. Yeah, it sucks to finally find diamond and then turn around and get blown into a pool of lava by a creeper, but let's face it: this is a game. Exploring a dark cave that winds down into the bowels of the earth until you finally see the faint glimmer of gems in the red light of a lava pool, then carefully creeping along a ledge to extract those gems, only to hear that fateful hissssssss and then find yourself doing your best impression of Arnold Schwarzenegger at the end of Terminator 2... sure, it sucks at the time, but it makes an awesome story for later! Some of my favorite moments in MC have been when I've been playing with my friends on the server and we just barely manage to make it back to the light of day with a crowd of mobs at our heels and the mangled corpses of our friends left behind in the darkness. Or, better yet: when we finally make it back to the cave entrance only to find that it's night and the mouth of the pit is surrounded by skeletons who start pouring arrows down on us.
So, anyway, I don't think that making ender chests immovable is the right way to go--I don't like the idea of immovable blocks (besides bedrock)--but I do agree with those who have suggested that they take longer to break. They should take at least act like obsidian--take a long time to mine and require a diamond pickaxe. I wouldn't mind if they took even longer to mine than obsidian.
Just a note, if you make chests immovable(invincible) then someone who is a 'mortal' in smp can build a fortress made out of chests so that it is impenetrable.
Just a note, if you make chests immovable(invincible) then someone who is a 'mortal' in smp can build a fortress made out of chests so that it is impenetrable.
Another very good argument against making them immovable.
I like the idea of them in SSP as well, and initially I disagreed with those who thought they were overpowered. However, after you_are_mad's post above (#32), I can see the point. I think it would indeed remove a lot of the challenge (and tension and excitement) from mining if you could just snap the chests up again at a moment's notice. Yeah, it sucks to finally find diamond and then turn around and get blown into a pool of lava by a creeper, but let's face it: this is a game.
We should remove enchantments. They make you overpowered and really take away from the challenge of the game. We should also remove Creative and Peaceful mode. God forbid someone actually try to play Minecraft to relax or explore or build. No, everything should be tense and difficult instead of optional.
By the time we even get an Ender Chest we shouldn't still be taking damage from Creepers because we'll have gotten plenty of junk already.
So, anyway, I don't think that making ender chests immovable is the right way to go--I don't like the idea of immovable blocks (besides bedrock)--but I do agree with those who have suggested that they take longer to break. They should take at least act like obsidian--take a long time to mine and require a diamond pickaxe. I wouldn't mind if they took even longer to mine than obsidian.
All that does is waste time that can be better spent doing other things. Making it take a long time to break is not a compensation, it's just a time waster like cleaning up after Endermen.
The difference between a discussion and an argument (or at least the sense in which "argument" is being used here) lies in the attitudes and behavior of the participants.
I would think the content of the discussion, not the attitude of its participants, would define it. Furthermore while I certainly acknowledge that some people can be overly headstrong and thickheaded, there are plenty of times when one's opposition is simply stupid and is unable to prove you wrong, which says nothing of your willingness to be proven so.
I would think the content of the discussion, not the attitude of its participants, would define it.
Content is determined by attitude, though--if the participants are not really willing to listen to each other, the discussion will go in a different direction than it otherwise might have.
Furthermore while I certainly acknowledge that some people can be overly headstrong and thickheaded, there are plenty of times when one's opposition is simply stupid and is unable to prove you wrong, which says nothing of your willingness to be proven so.
True enough. But ultimately the only thing you can control in a discussion/argument is your own attitude. If I come up against someone who cannot really add anything to the discussion because they are incapable of putting a logical point together, I generally just drop out.
Content is determined by attitude, though--if the participants are not really willing to listen to each other, the discussion will go in a different direction than it otherwise might have.
True enough. But ultimately the only thing you can control in a discussion/argument is your own attitude. If I come up against someone who cannot really add anything to the discussion because they are incapable of putting a logical point together, I generally just drop out.
I would think the content of the discussion, not the attitude of its participants, would define it. Furthermore while I certainly acknowledge that some people can be overly headstrong and thickheaded, there are plenty of times when one's opposition is simply stupid and is unable to prove you wrong, which says nothing of your willingness to be proven so.
Yay, people talking about something completely off-topic!
--When I first used the chests it was like, "COOL! Twighlight Zone going on here!" The 'mechanics' of the chest make sense, you put items in a heavy chest with a teleporting element and it takes them to a pocket in space to be recalled whenever you place a chest and go to take them back.
--Well, that's just the explanation, but people say it's op. You could say it's op because instead you usually have to waste time and energy to go back to a chest. I think this is irrelevant because I'm so tired of moving from one far-off home to another and having to carry a load of my important items. It's not op, just a relief to a massive inconvenience at the price of end-game materials.
Yay, people talking about something completely off-topic!
Glad to be of service.
--When I first used the chests it was like, "COOL! Twighlight Zone going on here!" The 'mechanics' of the chest make sense, you put items in a heavy chest with a teleporting element and it takes them to a pocket in space to be recalled whenever you place a chest and go to take them back.
I thought of them exactly like bags of holding in D&D, where the bag is essentially a portal to an extra-dimensional space. As far as I can tell, ender chests make perfect sense in terms of being internally consistent (like when you destroy all of the chests, the items still exist in that extra-dimensional space).
Yay, people talking about something completely off-topic!
I originally jumped in in an attempt to quell the arguments the OP specifically asked us not to engage in. Not only did I fail, but I ended up fueling an entirely separate debate. Yay.
1. We should remove enchantments. They make you overpowered and really take away from the challenge of the game. We should also remove Creative and Peaceful mode. God forbid someone actually try to play Minecraft to relax or explore or build. No, everything should be tense and difficult instead of optional.
By the time we even get an Ender Chest we shouldn't still be taking damage from Creepers because we'll have gotten plenty of junk already.
2. So that's your compensation? I get to tell all my friends that I got blown up by a Creeper?
3. All that does is waste time that can be better spent doing other things. Making it take a long time to break is not a compensation, it's just a time waster like cleaning up after Endermen.
1. Um... No offense but are you trying to start an argument? These are all off topic, as we are talking about ender chests
2. It is the fun of just making it out alive. Just like if you get lost in the mineshaft and you finally make it out after hours of searching, it is an exhilarating experience... For me anyways
3. See, this would work because people would find it annoying to have to pick it up all the time and some of them would just leave the chests in place so that they could avoid the annoyance.
3. See, this would work because people would find it annoying to have to pick it up all the time and some of them would just leave the chests in place so that they could avoid the annoyance.
1. Um... No offense but are you trying to start an argument? These are all off topic, as we are talking about ender chests
Yes, I'm just instigating a fight because that's what I like to do. Nevermind any possibility of taking your argument and applying it elsewhere to show what's wrong with it.
2. It is the fun of just making it out alive. Just like if you get lost in the mineshaft and you finally make it out after hours of searching, it is an exhilarating experience... For me anyways
There you go. Fun is subjective, and some people find a cheap death after a tedious diamond search to not be fun.
3. See, this would work because people would find it annoying to have to pick it up all the time and some of them would just leave the chests in place so that they could avoid the annoyance.
It's just a chest. It's not so overpowered that it requires you to spend four weeks trying to break it when it is literally useless outside of safeguarding items and transportation.
Unless you're using it super informally, the textbook definition of an "argument" has nothing to do with insults. A flame war, which I suppose doesn't really have a technical definition, will usually have at least some attempts at a valid argument (the other kind of argument, not the one we're talking about), but basically always include insults which themselves have no relevance to the discussion. A flame war involving no actual points, which doesn't even touch on the topic being discussed, sounds especially pathetic, unless it's a "yo' mama" fight, which are usually hilarious.
Either way a debate is a debate and they should be encouraged
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm usually not trying to be rude. So if a post comes across that way then sorry :]
And then you make more. I would make three; one for my house, one for my mine-house (at diamond level) and one for my construction area, and then I would put some sort-of important things into that chest (e.g. diamond pickaxe, extra food, bones, fish) and then I would use it to trasport cobblestone faster, and the only time I would move it was when I finished construction and moved to a new areas
Yes, I'm just instigating a fight because that's what I like to do. Never mind any possibility of taking your argument and applying it elsewhere to show what's wrong with it. Um... no offense, but what was my argument?
There you go. Fun is subjective, and some people find a cheap death after a tedious diamond search to not be fun. True, but what is life without a little adventure.
It's just a chest. It's not so overpowered that it requires you to spend four weeks trying to break it when it is literally useless outside of safeguarding items and transportation. Well I was thinking more like 2 minutes
And then you make more. I would make three; one for my house, one for my mine-house (at diamond level) and one for my construction area, and then I would put some sort-of important things into that chest (e.g. diamond pickaxe, extra food, bones, fish) and then I would use it to trasport cobblestone faster, and the only time I would move it was when I finished construction and moved to a new areas
My argument against that was kind of crap. Well, I kind of see where this is going, these chests would be focal points for your 'special stash'. They would be less backpacks, like you said, and more of a regional chest.
--After I think about it, your way would make more sense simply because if you make it easy to pick up again, the player would be more likely to keep it in inventory, die, and lose the chest having to make another one. With a slow mining time it would make it where it would be a tele-chest that you wouldn't have to remake every so often because you aren't risking it being on your person but instead at the 'local base' you set it at.
Just what is the mine time and requirement for picking them up? I've heard that they require an iron pickaxe. Honestly, workbenches take long enough to pick up that I don't use them willy-nilly, so I think it's fine.
What should be done about SMP is that players should be able to set a password for access to their inventory (done by a command, possibly.) The server gets one inventory and each player gets their own. Players cannot set a password that is already in use (as the inventories are identified by the password) and the password can be changed at any time.
A chest remembers the last accessed password unless you clear it (this reduces annoyance and allows items to be pulled from the chest by blocks added by mods.) By entering no password you access the server inventory.
Just what is the mine time and requirement for picking them up? I've heard that they require an iron pickaxe. Honestly, workbenches take long enough to pick up that I don't use them willy-nilly, so I think it's fine.
What should be done about SMP is that players should be able to set a password for access to their inventory (done by a command, possibly.) The server gets one inventory and each player gets their own. Players cannot set a password that is already in use (as the inventories are identified by the password.)
A chest remembers the last accessed password unless you clear it (this reduces annoyance and allows items to be pulled from the chest by blocks added by mods.) By entering no password you access the server inventory.
To test mining time of chest make a cheats world, go in creative, plop a chest down, grab alll the pick axes, /gamemode 2.
As for SMP, i think the Enderchest should be user specific. Each player should have their own chest system, rather than a community chest.
However, I think that after any enderchest is destroyed, it should dump all of the items inside that system of chests out of it, like destroying a regular chest. That would deter people from using it as a second inventory (though, still making that possible), as well as keep people from storing all of their valuables in it in SMP, creating an ungreifable chest system.
Participants go into a discussion knowing that others might have valid opinions and that their own opinion might not be the gospel, and they are open to changing that opinion if and when faced with well-reasoned arguments (different "argument" here!) to the contrary. This willingness to be proven wrong is key. If all participants come armed with this willingness, they will listen to and respect the opinions of others, even if they don't agree with them.
Participants in an argument do not have this willingness to be proven wrong, so they generally end up talking past each other. They do not believe that the opinions of others are valid, so there is no need to apply logic or reasoning. At best you get retroactive attempts to justify positions that are already fixed, as opposed to arriving at positions through logical deduction. Once the participants abandon all pretense of logic or justification, you generally end up with a flame war as participants begin attacking other participants instead of their arguments.
In reality, nobody likes to be proven wrong, so true discussion rarely happens. It's the nature of human psychology.
Now, as far as the ender chests go, I haven't used them yet because I don't have the latest snapshot installed. But when I first heard about them I thought they sounded like a great idea. I play mostly SMP, and I like the idea of having a community chest. Then again, I also play on a server that only allows people I trust--we have no griefers or trouble-makers. On an open server, ender chests would be extremely problematic.
I like the idea of them in SSP as well, and initially I disagreed with those who thought they were overpowered. However, after you_are_mad's post above (#32), I can see the point. I think it would indeed remove a lot of the challenge (and tension and excitement) from mining if you could just snap the chests up again at a moment's notice. Yeah, it sucks to finally find diamond and then turn around and get blown into a pool of lava by a creeper, but let's face it: this is a game. Exploring a dark cave that winds down into the bowels of the earth until you finally see the faint glimmer of gems in the red light of a lava pool, then carefully creeping along a ledge to extract those gems, only to hear that fateful hissssssss and then find yourself doing your best impression of Arnold Schwarzenegger at the end of Terminator 2... sure, it sucks at the time, but it makes an awesome story for later! Some of my favorite moments in MC have been when I've been playing with my friends on the server and we just barely manage to make it back to the light of day with a crowd of mobs at our heels and the mangled corpses of our friends left behind in the darkness. Or, better yet: when we finally make it back to the cave entrance only to find that it's night and the mouth of the pit is surrounded by skeletons who start pouring arrows down on us.
So, anyway, I don't think that making ender chests immovable is the right way to go--I don't like the idea of immovable blocks (besides bedrock)--but I do agree with those who have suggested that they take longer to break. They should take at least act like obsidian--take a long time to mine and require a diamond pickaxe. I wouldn't mind if they took even longer to mine than obsidian.
Another very good argument against making them immovable.
We should remove enchantments. They make you overpowered and really take away from the challenge of the game. We should also remove Creative and Peaceful mode. God forbid someone actually try to play Minecraft to relax or explore or build. No, everything should be tense and difficult instead of optional.
By the time we even get an Ender Chest we shouldn't still be taking damage from Creepers because we'll have gotten plenty of junk already.
So that's your compensation? I get to tell all my friends that I got blown up by a Creeper?
All that does is waste time that can be better spent doing other things. Making it take a long time to break is not a compensation, it's just a time waster like cleaning up after Endermen.
I would think the content of the discussion, not the attitude of its participants, would define it. Furthermore while I certainly acknowledge that some people can be overly headstrong and thickheaded, there are plenty of times when one's opposition is simply stupid and is unable to prove you wrong, which says nothing of your willingness to be proven so.
Content is determined by attitude, though--if the participants are not really willing to listen to each other, the discussion will go in a different direction than it otherwise might have.
True enough. But ultimately the only thing you can control in a discussion/argument is your own attitude. If I come up against someone who cannot really add anything to the discussion because they are incapable of putting a logical point together, I generally just drop out.
Yay, people talking about something completely off-topic!
--When I first used the chests it was like, "COOL! Twighlight Zone going on here!" The 'mechanics' of the chest make sense, you put items in a heavy chest with a teleporting element and it takes them to a pocket in space to be recalled whenever you place a chest and go to take them back.
--Well, that's just the explanation, but people say it's op. You could say it's op because instead you usually have to waste time and energy to go back to a chest. I think this is irrelevant because I'm so tired of moving from one far-off home to another and having to carry a load of my important items. It's not op, just a relief to a massive inconvenience at the price of end-game materials.
Glad to be of service.
I thought of them exactly like bags of holding in D&D, where the bag is essentially a portal to an extra-dimensional space. As far as I can tell, ender chests make perfect sense in terms of being internally consistent (like when you destroy all of the chests, the items still exist in that extra-dimensional space).
I originally jumped in in an attempt to quell the arguments the OP specifically asked us not to engage in. Not only did I fail, but I ended up fueling an entirely separate debate. Yay.
1. Um... No offense but are you trying to start an argument? These are all off topic, as we are talking about ender chests
2. It is the fun of just making it out alive. Just like if you get lost in the mineshaft and you finally make it out after hours of searching, it is an exhilarating experience... For me anyways
3. See, this would work because people would find it annoying to have to pick it up all the time and some of them would just leave the chests in place so that they could avoid the annoyance.
Yes, I'm just instigating a fight because that's what I like to do. Nevermind any possibility of taking your argument and applying it elsewhere to show what's wrong with it.
There you go. Fun is subjective, and some people find a cheap death after a tedious diamond search to not be fun.
It's just a chest. It's not so overpowered that it requires you to spend four weeks trying to break it when it is literally useless outside of safeguarding items and transportation.
Either way a debate is a debate and they should be encouraged
And then you make more. I would make three; one for my house, one for my mine-house (at diamond level) and one for my construction area, and then I would put some sort-of important things into that chest (e.g. diamond pickaxe, extra food, bones, fish) and then I would use it to trasport cobblestone faster, and the only time I would move it was when I finished construction and moved to a new areas
That you should remove the chests for being OP.
And that's supposed to make it better?
--After I think about it, your way would make more sense simply because if you make it easy to pick up again, the player would be more likely to keep it in inventory, die, and lose the chest having to make another one. With a slow mining time it would make it where it would be a tele-chest that you wouldn't have to remake every so often because you aren't risking it being on your person but instead at the 'local base' you set it at.
What should be done about SMP is that players should be able to set a password for access to their inventory (done by a command, possibly.) The server gets one inventory and each player gets their own. Players cannot set a password that is already in use (as the inventories are identified by the password) and the password can be changed at any time.
A chest remembers the last accessed password unless you clear it (this reduces annoyance and allows items to be pulled from the chest by blocks added by mods.) By entering no password you access the server inventory.
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.
As is now, I think it's the perfect mining time.
However, I think that after any enderchest is destroyed, it should dump all of the items inside that system of chests out of it, like destroying a regular chest. That would deter people from using it as a second inventory (though, still making that possible), as well as keep people from storing all of their valuables in it in SMP, creating an ungreifable chest system.
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.