Hopefully a fertile discussion. I'm wondering what you would want to "Compost" - or what you could "Compost," if it got changed - please try to keep this a "clean" discussion.
Thanks folks. May the "Compost" be with you!
(Hints: Eggs, Bamboo; other "endless" resources)
(Edit: From Replies To Original Post) Ideas List
Ag. /Tree-creation area (not just gardening and /or for decoration) by "Composter" (it's still in a Snapshot).
Efficiencies table (could write in Signs, in-Game) of "tiers" of "Compost(ing)."
Can stand in it, as alternative to (harder to get-into, I think) Cauldron, so: "changing room" (as opposed to "bathtub"), any box that houses someone, "toilet ( o.O )" (Keeping It clean), or other "liquid( 'ish, see next) container"
Hides (nonexistent) legs /"legs" (when full) but That could be used to hide-such from those standing in it looking-down. Ex-coma /amnesia patients in RolePlaying?
"Podzol Planter" (for decor. )
"Composter" box looks pretty-good, so could be an alternative to other Wood surfaces and /or for mixed-use with Barrels, et. al. for surface-Designs. Similar to (also 1.14 upcoming) Looms( ' already shown uses for such, in YouTube Vid's. ) - which also have that /those "Wood'y" and /or "Paper'y," look(s) (great for alternating also with Bookshelves).
(Goes without saying the new "Functional Blocks" /"Crafting Stations" would have New-and-interesting combo's. with one-another and these other Blocks; may the examples flow: freely)
(And Also, Continued-Edit: ) Compost Wish (It "Away"?) List ("Not" A "'Garbage' List")
Eggs (directly, instead of via Cake or Pumpkin Pie)
Bamboo
Sweet Berry Bush (except only the Sweet Berries are obtainable, as in Snapshots; but different "tiers" - I'll call them - than the Sweet Berries [separately?] : maybe)
Dye (Bone Meal -> Plants -> Dye -> Bone Meal) @.@
So Wool?
Carpets..
Dead Bush? (into "New 'life'"? is it really "dead"?!?). Note: it's already Fuel; possibly (in coming 1.14).
Sugar (from Sugar Cane [already "Compost-able"], and again not just via Cake or Pumpkin Pie)
Somewhat Animal / (Hostile) (other) Mobs' products ("yes, but" Wool and Eggs don't require anything to [un?]die /be destroyed) :
feathers (byproduct of chicken farming)
cod (byproduct of guardian farming)
other fish (byproducts of fishing that greatly exceed demand)
poppies (byproduct of iron farms)
leather armor (useless byproduct of fishing and zombie farming)
beef/steak (byproduct of leather production that significantly [sp. ] exceeds the amount one can eat)
rabbit skin (byproduct of rabbit's foot production)
( 'Nother Edit) End-Products Desired But A LOT Of Them List:
Food (such as "Meat," i.e. including Baked Potatoes [80% > 50% chance of “upping-level,” of “Composter”])
[anything we have "too-much" of given it's a byproduct of something-else's obtaining; Most are useful, though Most of the time: so really it's either some of us don't-use certain things, and /or some of that Stuff is only-much-Later usable, Much]
-> becomes
(anything-"Hoarded" too-long or-Else, never-used, even to admire having [it's in the way /clogs storage])
-> becomes
(goes into above Wish List; there: and Yes, I did just indirectly - also - define "Hoarding" in MC as "real" /"not real" [like In Real Life])
(Final Edit'll be: ) Math List; How's It All Work Out? : How Well, How Much??
What this means, is that (and Yes, Trees are indirectly-"Compost-able," via Saplings - which there will be less-of due to Sticks-dropping, Too in 1.14 - if one keeps-Growing, Trees; and super-over-produces Saplings: one doesn't want) more-effort and /or limited supply stuff is "more (chance) 'Compost-able'." So that's especially the stuff that's "50% chance" or more, just-above.
80% basically "Cooking and /or Crafting." 100% "chance 'Compost-ed'" is "Crafted from multiple separate(d in origin) ingredients and therefore fairly-difficult."
Whereas 10% is "commonly available, and relatively-plentiful, (usually) without tools." 20% being "relatively-commonly available, and relatively-common, (typically) without tools."
So here're some specifics /items Across the %'s, L -> R. 10% (Wheat) Seeds -> 50% Wheat -> 80% Bread (3:1 ratio, or Hay Bale 9:1 ratio, or Cookie 2:8 = 1:4 ratio [So Cookie's The Best, For 1 Wheat: 4 Cookie Items, Ratio]) or 100% Cake (3:1 ratio).
In that Seeds -> Wheat example, the Cookie's ratio of 1 Wheat: 4 Cookies, means 4 (Cookies) X 0.8 (80% "chance of level-increase" ) = (or would give) "3.2" compared to "100%" (theoretically). Meaning, that a Cake's own 100% from 3:1 Wheat to Cake (or Wheat:Cake) ratio, of "3," so "3.0," isn't-quite as good, proportionately (especially when you include the Six other items-required - thank gosh for the practically-Auto-Recipe 'ing, function, lately of Recipe Book - and only One, for the Cookies' - own - production).
And since we can no-longer (after briefly) feed Chocolate (Cocoa)-containing Cookies to Parrots (or indeed, any Mobs), Cocoa Beans have more-use (proportionately) than before. 'Nother example.
Potatoes (again) 50% . Baked Potatoes - just add Fuel - make(s) them 80% , so What's the Fuel-give - alone (and Cooking in 1 /upcoming 3 different Block types) - in terms of Bone Meal production?
0.5 -> 0.8, then. So a factor of 1.6, or 60 (technically 160%, total) % increase, over Potatoes-alone and Probably worth-it - of course - to Cook them, first (though yes, some could argue that Food - in-Reality - has More energy Before it's Cooked, but hey, I'm guessing this "Compost[er]" has some-of the features of the Player's - own - "digestive system" and /or "its microbes," do ["eat the 'same stuff' , the 'same way'").
Seeds! Especially wheat seeds, but others too. Eggs are a great idea too - I sometimes set up a "chicken reactor" for the feathers, and once it's up and going I have far too many eggs.
Moved to Recent Updates and Snapshots, as this isn't actually a suggestion.
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Hmm, the more I read about it, it reminds me of a Villager, Trading scheme (of tiers, of Trades). Generally, the lower-functionalities require less- effort /investment by the Player, but the greater ones require better Tools et. al. to get.
But it also is like a specific-Kind of Villager: it Doesn't "Compost" Wood products (like some Villagers do some things and others, others) ; and isn't just a catch-all for making things super-easy. To do.
Sure, it would feel-Weird to me if In Real Life I were to compost Eggs (and bamboo might be kind-of dangerous [as it might regrow, like any "weed"-like thing, in unwanted ways /places] ! ). Wasteful, but I suppose part of the point of this is for people who'd rather Do something with /To stuff than "Hoard" it in - like you just said, above - "Grain Silos" or otherwise "Seed banks" that are too-redundant (and never-used more-actively).
I can Imagine, now putting a "Composter" at every mini-Base I do Ag. at, and - when I get more impatient (and /or scared /bored, of Skeleton-slaying) - getting rid of old Ag. materials. Of course, the "Pillager Beast" might also "help" with the Planted stuff (yeah, Noo! if the same time).
Moved to Recent Updates and Snapshots, as this isn't actually a suggestion.
Whoops! Thanks, thought I'd Put it in there, appreciate it.
(Edit: separately here's just 1 more idea; plenty-more Bone Meal means faster-Ag. very generally and Trees specifically. Could put these on the edge of what'd-become a quasi-"natural" [re-?]forest).
The percentages are weird too. Wheat has a 50% chance of giving you a level, so 3 wheat will give you 1.5 levels on average. But crafting the wheat into bread will only give you 0.8 levels.
Hay bales are even worse. 9 wheat would give you 4.5 levels, but a hay bale only 0.8.
As things stand you're always better off composting with raw materials.
Incidentally, an entire double chest of seeds will give you about 49.37 bone meal on average, or 5.49 bone blocks.
Using wheat instead would give you 5 times as much: about 3 stacks and 54.86 of bone meal, or 27.43 bone blocks.
Looked at from the perspective of an alternate bone meal, the percentage chance to produce progression makes a bit of sense…
The lowest tiers are (generally) things that are produced as byproducts of getting something the player would actually want (eg seeds) or easy to obtain (eg cane) while the top tiers require multiple players actions.
[There are some counter examples as well (eg dried kelp works only as well as kelp, and poppies – an iron farm byproduct – are in the 50% tier, vines & tall grass are in the second tier ), but this seems to be the beneral trend.]
The statement "Hoppers cannot be drawn into the sides of composters." [Which I take to mean composters can not be fed by hoppers but must be fed manually by players.] woudl seem to support the idea the MS/Mj is attempting to prevent auto-composting. [BOO! HISS!]
Working backward from this:
1000 wheat would generate 500composter level increases [CLI].
500 CLI would also be the average of 625 haybale usages (requireing 5625 wheat and 625 & ten crafting table usages [assuming full stacks were used to craft] )
Running a auto wheat farm into a silo and mass crafting haybales would give 500 CLI with only 635 player actions (10 with a crafting table, 625 with the composter) which may 'waste' wheat in order to minimize player annoyance.
Thus if the goal is maximizing bone meal output per item input, composting raw materials is most efficient.
If the goal is to clear storage (other than by just using a garbage disposal), a few of the crafted items may be optimal...
Best Composting materials [YMMV]
Bread which yields 3x the CLI of haybales from the same raw material and via the same crafting scheme would seem always supperior to both wheat and hay.
Pumpkins (which are the highest CLI tier item that can be easily autofarmed without bonemeal) would seem to be the optimal input.
To the OP question:
In rough order (and limited to organic materials):
pumpkin seeds (byproduct of JoL production)
wheat seeds (byproduct of wheat growing)
beet seeds (lower than wheat as not much used)
feathers (byproduct of chicken farming)
cod (byproduct of guardian farming)
other fish (byproducts of fishing that greatly exceed demand)
poppies (byproduct of iron farms)
leather armor (useless byproduct of fishing and zombie farming)
beef/steak (byproduct of leather production that signifacantly exceeds the amount one can eat)
rabbit skin (byproduct of rabbit's foot production)
eggs (comparatively low as can be run through a dispenser to produce chicken etc)
prismarine crystals (oddly, but only useful for lanterns; & crystal drops will exceed the shards supply if one uses much of the prismarine blocks)
slime balls (useful, but production easily outstrips amounts needed)
bows & fishing rods (byproduct of fishing)
What's not on the list:
anything that can be traded (eg string),
anything that takes player action to produce (eg pork)
anything that comes from an auto-farm that can be easily turned off (eg cane, pumpkins/melons)
Most unfortunate the prejuice against automation has been allowed to affect the composter as a garbage disposal that gave some minimal value back from seeds etc would have been nice…
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why does everything have to be so stoopid?" Harvey Pekar (from American Splendor)
WARNING: I have an extemely "grindy" playstyle; YMMV — if this doesn't seem fun to you, mine what you can from it & bin the rest.
Looked at from the perspective of an alternate bone meal, the percentage chance to produce progression makes a bit of sense…
The lowest tiers are (generally) things that are produced as byproducts of getting something the player would actually want (eg seeds) or easy to obtain (eg cane) while the top tiers require multiple players actions.
[There are some counter examples as well (eg dried kelp works only as well as kelp, and poppies – an iron farm byproduct – are in the 50% tier, vines & tall grass are in the second tier ), but this seems to be the beneral trend.]
The statement "Hoppers cannot be drawn into the sides of composters." [Which I take to mean composters can not be fed by hoppers but must be fed manually by players.] woudl seem to support the idea the MS/Mj is attempting to prevent auto-composting. [BOO! HISS!]
Working backward from this:
Thus if the goal is maximizing bone meal output per item input, composting raw materials is most efficient.
If the goal is to clear storage (other than by just using a garbage disposal), a few of the crafted items may be optimal...
Math on the above is still being worked-out, between here 2X so far and (MC) Wiki 1X (considered my own, but knew it all might require Experimental results ) . But yeah, we have hints of this now, 3 sources, to the statement.
feathers (byproduct of chicken farming)
cod (byproduct of guardian farming)
other fish (byproducts of fishing that greatly exceed demand)
poppies (byproduct of iron farms)
(Am leaving-out Animal products, here as I've noticed they've been studiously-avoided - felt weird about including Wool, but it's renewable without Animals dying - above; like Eggs: again)
eggs (comparatively low as can be run through a dispenser to produce chicken etc)
prismarine crystals (oddly, but only useful for lanterns; & crystal drops will exceed the shards supply if one uses much of the prismarine blocks)
slime balls (useful, but production easily outstrips amounts needed)
bows & fishing rods (byproduct of fishing)
What's not on the list:
anything that can be traded (eg string),
anything that takes player action to produce (eg pork)
anything that comes from an auto-farm that can be easily turned off (eg cane, pumpkins/melons)
Most unfortunate the prejuice against automation has been allowed to affect the composter as a garbage disposal that gave some minimal value back from seeds etc would have been nice
(Partially Edited-down to focus on parts most-interesting to me in the here-and-now) :
Yeah, it's Probably not - yet as of the Snapshot, for sure - necessarily intended to be used as a "garbage disposal," but - again - actually Create something (at least theoretically, via "just" Bone Meal) new (if not-New as in an Update, New). I'll just not(ic)e here that - While - Cactus (like Lava) can be used for "item disposal ( , instantly)" (just don't Fall in /on it /them! if not in Creative Mode), we can "Compost" Cactus , so we're "destroying" - One - form of "garbage disposal," already .
Seeds! Especially wheat seeds, but others too. Eggs are a great idea too - I sometimes set up a "chicken reactor" for the feathers, and once it's up and going I have far too many eggs.
Looks like someone has the same problem as me. Finally.
Mass producing chicken is super easy, they multiply with insane rate, if you use everything you can. Meaning you have philosophy of no waste.
I have too much of everything. Seeds, eggs, feathers, chicken themselves, cooked chicken…
All I can do is Cook the Chicken to Feed /Heal the Dogs .
But yeah, I'd have to Dig like a whole Biome of Gravel (Mountains, Oceans), to get-enough to make (endess!) Arrows (from Feathers).
As for Eggs? it really always feels like: "kill them before they reproduce" ; I never went in for Automation of them (though did have an Egg, Dropper Pipe when that worked more-easily, however never really needed it so Water Changes with 1.13 had less-than no effect on me upon Automation) : in fear of a "World-breaking Bug" of Crashing it via Chicken, Population Explosion
Yeah, arrows are another problem of mine. Guess what. Have too many of them and have potential to make a lot more. Silexies are the only problem for them, though, as gravel is non-renewable. But I mine a lot, so I have it. And mining entire biomes? That's the stage where I am now. :-D
And feeding the dogs with chicken? Yeah, sure, but they don't consume that much.
Having some sensible population of chicken is probably best approach, but then…what to do with all the seeds, which are byproduct of producing other stuff, wheat mainly? Composter to the rescue, but…like year from now, because of forge.
As a guy, who at one point had 2400 animals in building 30 by 35, I can tell you, that you'd probably have to try really hard to crash the game with animals. However, you'll get 1 fps.
I'll give you sense of how I deal with overpopulation/production. I have automated collecting for eggs in chicken room, which I have intentionally shrunken down, to 20 by 30, I believe, so if there are a lot of those things, I cannot even see the carpets on droppers. At that point, you know, you should probably kill some of them. Like 1000. Another indicator might be about 5 fps. Collected eggs are then fired by dispensers back to chicken area, chicks are fed with seeds, they grow up, I kill them again, and the cycle continues until I get rid of supply of stuff I have too many of. This, however, leads to overproduction of feathers (too bad you cannot use them as a fuel, like 4 feathers for 1 item), which I just throw in lava. Chicken themselves then get cooked and stored. So far, current storage design is just fine, and when it will not, I have another room for it, where I can put up to 24 columns of linked chests, where 1 column has 349 slots in total.
With this, you just must think differently. Big, on large scale. But it has some benefits as well. You can run everywhere, you can play on hard, you'll have food all the time.
It's kind of funny that our main Very Late in-Game problem (or not-problem) is "having too-much Food (mainly Meat)." And yes, "Meat" as itself is finally a-thing, as the Smoker (Does Cook /Smelt /Smoke Kelp -> Dried Kelp, But see next) - Copying from Wiki - (if you don't mind) :
there, Pasted; is Now "a Thing," as it's been in-Game separated-out, (whoops, almost, was looking for and saw POTATO[ES] on 4th re-read!) Wholly from other "vegetarian options" (in my defense, who In Real Life eats only potatoes on their own, Actually?).
Again, since Only Dogs (not even Wolves, not-Tamed, kind of wish I Could Feed - or even Breed! - them, but one - again - "garbage disposal" [latest theory on how dogs In Real Life, Evolved was following "rubbish piles" of humans for over 40,000 Years, real "'junkyard' dogs," in a way]) of Any Mobs can eat Meat - Villagers can Trade for Porkchops and Chicken (as pointed-out by ScotsMiser above), so "sort of" - I end up with a Lot of Dogs @.@ . I probably get more "Dog Lag" than any given other Mob.
So I don't think it's Quite as big a deal as the (If In Real Life, again) Chicken Eggs' , issue (which In Real Life, again, are basically all-but meat, in fact). Guess it's-easier to "spear a Potato (Again, Missed That Above 'Part Of The Way Through' [Heh, Speaking Of Spearing]) with a stick" /"hold it up on a makeshift grill" (too bad about the Kelp -> can't go to -> Dried Kelp, though just saying [via Campire]) than a - starting raw, insubstantial - chicken egg ( *crack* aww).
Fact is, that - the concept (which I-guess'll "include Potatoes" XD , here) - of "Meat" in MC via-Campfire (in - yet-again also - 1.14, upcoming) "boils-down to" it's even-More "concentrated" a "nutritionally-related resource," than Bone Meal itself /Bones. But - from Real Life, expression - "Meat-and-Potatoes" is in fact also some of the most-tasty stuff, even (largely why anyone who isn't too picky of an eater can eat [Older traditional] British food with No problem).
"An embarrassment of riches," and /or "Meats (and Potatoes )." Playing on Hard (Mode /Difficulty), yes, Sprint ( /Run) -everywhere, yes; even have Food Almost-all of the time: never have to "kill 'bush meat'" (or could just Breed some first, like me, keeping Animal population same), great points about "economies of scale," you've made, here.
To me, having-"Extra" of some - in Hard Mode - Required resource, though, Never-is, such. It's just a matter of time, no matter how much of "Meat Silo" (with the "Composter" now the smallest, "veggie-focused" version, of that) one - keeps - re- Building, -stocking (post-stalking maybe even). *minds the slobbery Dogs*
The statement "Hoppers cannot be drawn into the sides of composters." [Which I take to mean composters can not be fed by hoppers but must be fed manually by players.] woudl seem to support the idea the MS/Mj is attempting to prevent auto-composting. [BOO! HISS!]
What are you talking about? Composters can be automated just fine - put a hopper on top to supply items to be composted, and a hopper underneath to take out the bone meal.
What's weird to me is that you can't automate the campfire.
I have to say, the Composter isn't very good right now. I used about 50 potatos, 16 carrots, 72 Wheat, 12 Apples, 64 Saplings, and 5-6 stacks of Seeds. All for 21 Bonemeal. I know the wiki numbers may not be perfect, but looking at items in terms of efficiency they are all over the map. I'm going to try and break the efficiency down by item group.
For example, lets look at Wheat, Bread, and Hay Bales. In order for you to get 1 Bonemeal, you need to go through 7 levels of Compost. Based on the wiki stats, that means you need:
Wheat: 14 per 1 Bonemeal
Bread (3 Wheat): 8.75 per 1 Bonemeal (aka 26.25 Wheat per Bonemeal) - 53.33% as efficient as Wheat
Hay Bale (9 Wheat): 8.75 per 1 Bonemeal (aka 78.75 Wheat per Bonemeal) - 17.78% as efficient as Wheat
This makes Bread and Hay Bales absolutely trash for getting Bonemeal and nobody should ever use them unless they manage to get them for free, and even then you should convert the Hay Bale back to Wheat first.
Now looking at Melon Seeds, Melon Slices, and Melons, first I can say you should absolutely never convert Melon Slices to Seeds, all you do is half your efficiency.
Melon Slice: 35 per 1 Bonemeal
Melon Seed: 70 per 1 Bonemeal
Melon: 14 per 1 Bonemeal
Now a Melon drops 3-7 Slices, averaging 5. That means you could take your 14 Melons to make 1 Bonemeal, break them, and get 70 Melon Slices (approximately). That means the Melon Slice is twice as efficient as both the Melon Seed and the Melon.
Looking at Kelp, Dried Kelp, and Dried Kelp Block:
Kelp: 70 per 1 Bonemeal
Dried Kelp: 70 per 1 Bonemeal
Dried Kelp Block: 35 per 1 Bonemeal
Between Kelp and Dried Kelp, obviously Kelp is more efficient as you don't need to use fuel. But considering 9 Dried Kelp makes 1 Kelp Block, you could use 35 Dried Kelp Blocks for a single Bonemeal, or get 315 Dried Kelp which will give you 4.5 Bonemeal.
Other quick ones:
Pumpkin is better than crafting it into Pumpkin Seeds and using those
Mushroom Block is better than breaking it into Mushrooms ans using those (if you have Silk Touch)
It makes more sense to use 1 Dried Kelp Block to make 20 Baked Potatoes and compost those rather than composting 9 Dried Kelp and 20 Potatoes (20 Baked Potatoes will get you 2.29 Bonemeal, where the ingredients only get you roughly 1.5 Bonemeal)
Personally, I find the Composter to be largely pointless with these numbers, other than to at least get something for all the crap you have clogging your chests. But where composting can shine is automated farms like Sugar Cane, Cactus, Kelp, and the like. Something you can build and forget about to let it grow, automatically be harvested, and then feed right into a Composter.
Again, going to rule out Kelp as being feasible for this due to the slow growth and the generally pointless amount it fills a Composter. Sugar Cane and Cactus both grow about once per every 18 minutes. Because Cactus has the chance to land on itself and be destroyed and they both have the same 20% chance of raising the Compost level, Sugar Cane farms seem like the best automated farm.
An automated Pumpkin farm might be more efficient due to it having a 50% chance of increasing the Compost level, but you also have to take into account reduced efficiency due to Pumpkin Growth. Even once the stem is fully grown, you only have an X out of 4 chance for a Pumpkin to appear, where X is the number of suitable blocks for a Pumpkin to grow adjacent to the Stem. Pumpkins also need light to grow, where Sugarcane does not. I'm sure that can largely impact designs of farms, so it seems to me at first glance that Sugarcane is probably more efficient than Pumpkins within a set area.
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quote=The_Shadow
What are you talking about? Composters can be automated just fine - put a hopper on top to supply items to be composted, and a hopper underneath to take out the bone meal.
I was working from the wiki description (rather than testing in a snapshot) and the line "Hoppers can also push items into the composter from above." had not yet been added… [ https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=Composter&oldid=1305777 ]
Most pleased that composters can be automated… (Converting all the excess seed, etc is a viable proposition f I don't have to stand there clicking manually :big-grin: )
quote=Badprenup
⋮
Personally, I find the Composter to be largely pointless with these numbers, other than to at least get [i]something[/i] for all the crap you have clogging your chests. But where composting can shine is automated farms like Sugar Cane, Cactus, Kelp, and the like. Something you can build and forget about to let it grow, automatically be harvested, and then feed right into a Composter.
⋮
Sugar Cane farms seem like the best automated farm.
An automated Pumpkin farm might be more efficient due to it having a 50% chance of increasing the Compost level, but you also have to take into account reduced efficiency due to Pumpkin Growth.
⋮
it seems to me at first glance that Sugarcane is probably more efficient than Pumpkins within a set area.
Concur with analysis; for stand-alone bone farm composting, cane looks like the current optimal feedstock…
[I didn't find much difference in space requirements between cane and the most efficient (ie S-Piston&Top_slab break-from-above) melon/pumpkin farms… (These need to be half-&-half for greatest efficiency so the output is a mix of melon slices & pumpkins @~5:1)
…but, these designs rely on hopper minecart collection systems – which makes cane farms less resource expensive and less laggy.
One also has the option of further reducing lag by using slimeblock 'bars' to reduce the number of pistons firing (by a factor of 12 ! ), but at the cost of expanding one horizontal dimension of the cane farm.]
Since composting can be fed by a hopper, I'm seeing the composter a faster, quieter, and less laggy alternative to the dropper fed cactus/lava garbage disposals currently common – with a bonus of returned bonemeal.
[I take a signal from the hopper at the top of a silo; when that signal reaches strength 2, the disposal (clocked dropper) turns on until it drops back below two. This keeps the silo full and disposes of overage.
The efficiency (in terms of conversion ratio) may not be optimal for much of what is dumped, but the numbers of items are high enough I would expect the output to nicely supliment – if not supplant – skeleton farming for bones. ]
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why does everything have to be so stoopid?" Harvey Pekar (from American Splendor)
WARNING: I have an extemely "grindy" playstyle; YMMV — if this doesn't seem fun to you, mine what you can from it & bin the rest.
The rate for wheat seeds is definitely not 10%. I ran three double-chests of them through a composter and got 196 - just over three stacks - of bone meal out. That corresponds to 1372 composter levels.
A one-sided hypothesis test of the true mean proportion being greater than 0.10 gives a p-value of 1.3e-22. Needless to say, I reject the null hypothesis with extreme prejudice!
I calculate a 99% confidence interval of [0.12375, 0.14090] for the true mean proportion. So 0.125 is actually on the low end, though not ruled out.
I think he saw the part about feeding from the side not being allowed, and, like myself, almost missed the part where you could use one on top to feed it. Wording on the wiki could be better organized on that point.
Hopefully a fertile discussion. I'm wondering what you would want to "Compost" - or what you could "Compost," if it got changed - please try to keep this a "clean" discussion.
Thanks folks. May the "Compost" be with you!
(Hints: Eggs, Bamboo; other "endless" resources)
(Edit: From Replies To Original Post) Ideas List
Ag. /Tree-creation area (not just gardening and /or for decoration) by "Composter" (it's still in a Snapshot).
Efficiencies table (could write in Signs, in-Game) of "tiers" of "Compost(ing)."
Can stand in it, as alternative to (harder to get-into, I think) Cauldron, so: "changing room" (as opposed to "bathtub"), any box that houses someone, "toilet ( o.O )" (Keeping It clean), or other "liquid( 'ish, see next) container"
Hides (nonexistent) legs /"legs" (when full) but That could be used to hide-such from those standing in it looking-down. Ex-coma /amnesia patients in RolePlaying?
"Podzol Planter" (for decor. )
"Composter" box looks pretty-good, so could be an alternative to other Wood surfaces and /or for mixed-use with Barrels, et. al. for surface-Designs. Similar to (also 1.14 upcoming) Looms( ' already shown uses for such, in YouTube Vid's. ) - which also have that /those "Wood'y" and /or "Paper'y," look(s) (great for alternating also with Bookshelves).
(Goes without saying the new "Functional Blocks" /"Crafting Stations" would have New-and-interesting combo's. with one-another and these other Blocks; may the examples flow: freely)
(And Also, Continued-Edit: ) Compost Wish (It "Away"?) List ("Not" A "'Garbage' List")
Eggs (directly, instead of via Cake or Pumpkin Pie)
Bamboo
Sweet Berry Bush (except only the Sweet Berries are obtainable, as in Snapshots; but different "tiers" - I'll call them - than the Sweet Berries [separately?] : maybe)
Dye (Bone Meal -> Plants -> Dye -> Bone Meal) @.@
So Wool?
Carpets..
Dead Bush? (into "New 'life'"? is it really "dead"?!?). Note: it's already Fuel; possibly (in coming 1.14).
Sugar (from Sugar Cane [already "Compost-able"], and again not just via Cake or Pumpkin Pie)
Somewhat Animal / (Hostile) (other) Mobs' products ("yes, but" Wool and Eggs don't require anything to [un?]die /be destroyed) :
feathers (byproduct of chicken farming)
cod (byproduct of guardian farming)
other fish (byproducts of fishing that greatly exceed demand)
poppies (byproduct of iron farms)
leather armor (useless byproduct of fishing and zombie farming)
beef/steak (byproduct of leather production that significantly [sp. ] exceeds the amount one can eat)
rabbit skin (byproduct of rabbit's foot production)
( 'Nother Edit) End-Products Desired But A LOT Of Them List:
Food (such as "Meat," i.e. including Baked Potatoes [80% > 50% chance of “upping-level,” of “Composter”])
[anything we have "too-much" of given it's a byproduct of something-else's obtaining; Most are useful, though Most of the time: so really it's either some of us don't-use certain things, and /or some of that Stuff is only-much-Later usable, Much]
-> becomes
(anything-"Hoarded" too-long or-Else, never-used, even to admire having [it's in the way /clogs storage])
-> becomes
(goes into above Wish List; there: and Yes, I did just indirectly - also - define "Hoarding" in MC as "real" /"not real" [like In Real Life])
(Final Edit'll be: ) Math List; How's It All Work Out? : How Well, How Much??
(work in progress)
So from Wiki:
10%
20%
50%
80%
100%
What this means, is that (and Yes, Trees are indirectly-"Compost-able," via Saplings - which there will be less-of due to Sticks-dropping, Too in 1.14 - if one keeps-Growing, Trees; and super-over-produces Saplings: one doesn't want) more-effort and /or limited supply stuff is "more (chance) 'Compost-able'." So that's especially the stuff that's "50% chance" or more, just-above.
80% basically "Cooking and /or Crafting." 100% "chance 'Compost-ed'" is "Crafted from multiple separate(d in origin) ingredients and therefore fairly-difficult."
Whereas 10% is "commonly available, and relatively-plentiful, (usually) without tools." 20% being "relatively-commonly available, and relatively-common, (typically) without tools."
So here're some specifics /items Across the %'s, L -> R. 10% (Wheat) Seeds -> 50% Wheat -> 80% Bread (3:1 ratio, or Hay Bale 9:1 ratio, or Cookie 2:8 = 1:4 ratio [So Cookie's The Best, For 1 Wheat: 4 Cookie Items, Ratio]) or 100% Cake (3:1 ratio).
In that Seeds -> Wheat example, the Cookie's ratio of 1 Wheat: 4 Cookies, means 4 (Cookies) X 0.8 (80% "chance of level-increase" ) = (or would give) "3.2" compared to "100%" (theoretically). Meaning, that a Cake's own 100% from 3:1 Wheat to Cake (or Wheat:Cake) ratio, of "3," so "3.0," isn't-quite as good, proportionately (especially when you include the Six other items-required - thank gosh for the practically-Auto-Recipe 'ing, function, lately of Recipe Book - and only One, for the Cookies' - own - production).
And since we can no-longer (after briefly) feed Chocolate (Cocoa)-containing Cookies to Parrots (or indeed, any Mobs), Cocoa Beans have more-use (proportionately) than before. 'Nother example.
Potatoes (again) 50% . Baked Potatoes - just add Fuel - make(s) them 80% , so What's the Fuel-give - alone (and Cooking in 1 /upcoming 3 different Block types) - in terms of Bone Meal production?
0.5 -> 0.8, then. So a factor of 1.6, or 60 (technically 160%, total) % increase, over Potatoes-alone and Probably worth-it - of course - to Cook them, first (though yes, some could argue that Food - in-Reality - has More energy Before it's Cooked, but hey, I'm guessing this "Compost[er]" has some-of the features of the Player's - own - "digestive system" and /or "its microbes," do ["eat the 'same stuff' , the 'same way'").
Happy 'post'ing!
Seeds! Especially wheat seeds, but others too. Eggs are a great idea too - I sometimes set up a "chicken reactor" for the feathers, and once it's up and going I have far too many eggs.
Moved to Recent Updates and Snapshots, as this isn't actually a suggestion.
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Hmm, the more I read about it, it reminds me of a Villager, Trading scheme (of tiers, of Trades). Generally, the lower-functionalities require less- effort /investment by the Player, but the greater ones require better Tools et. al. to get.
But it also is like a specific-Kind of Villager: it Doesn't "Compost" Wood products (like some Villagers do some things and others, others) ; and isn't just a catch-all for making things super-easy. To do.
Sure, it would feel-Weird to me if In Real Life I were to compost Eggs (and bamboo might be kind-of dangerous [as it might regrow, like any "weed"-like thing, in unwanted ways /places] ! ). Wasteful, but I suppose part of the point of this is for people who'd rather Do something with /To stuff than "Hoard" it in - like you just said, above - "Grain Silos" or otherwise "Seed banks" that are too-redundant (and never-used more-actively).
I can Imagine, now putting a "Composter" at every mini-Base I do Ag. at, and - when I get more impatient (and /or scared /bored, of Skeleton-slaying) - getting rid of old Ag. materials. Of course, the "Pillager Beast" might also "help" with the Planted stuff (yeah, Noo! if the same time).
Whoops! Thanks, thought I'd Put it in there, appreciate it.
(Edit: separately here's just 1 more idea; plenty-more Bone Meal means faster-Ag. very generally and Trees specifically. Could put these on the edge of what'd-become a quasi-"natural" [re-?]forest).
Apparently eggs can't be composted, pity.
The percentages are weird too. Wheat has a 50% chance of giving you a level, so 3 wheat will give you 1.5 levels on average. But crafting the wheat into bread will only give you 0.8 levels.
Hay bales are even worse. 9 wheat would give you 4.5 levels, but a hay bale only 0.8.
As things stand you're always better off composting with raw materials.
Incidentally, an entire double chest of seeds will give you about 49.37 bone meal on average, or 5.49 bone blocks.
Using wheat instead would give you 5 times as much: about 3 stacks and 54.86 of bone meal, or 27.43 bone blocks.
After extensive testing, I conclude that the information in the wiki is wrong: The rate for seeds isn't 0.1, it's 0.125. One chance in 8, not 10.
Looked at from the perspective of an alternate bone meal, the percentage chance to produce progression makes a bit of sense…
The lowest tiers are (generally) things that are produced as byproducts of getting something the player would actually want (eg seeds) or easy to obtain (eg cane) while the top tiers require multiple players actions.
[There are some counter examples as well (eg dried kelp works only as well as kelp, and poppies – an iron farm byproduct – are in the 50% tier, vines & tall grass are in the second tier ), but this seems to be the beneral trend.]
The statement "Hoppers cannot be drawn into the sides of composters." [Which I take to mean composters can not be fed by hoppers but must be fed manually by players.] woudl seem to support the idea the MS/Mj is attempting to prevent auto-composting. [BOO! HISS!]
Working backward from this:
1000 wheat would generate 500composter level increases [CLI].
500 CLI would also be the average of 625 haybale usages (requireing 5625 wheat and 625 & ten crafting table usages [assuming full stacks were used to craft] )
Running a auto wheat farm into a silo and mass crafting haybales would give 500 CLI with only 635 player actions (10 with a crafting table, 625 with the composter) which may 'waste' wheat in order to minimize player annoyance.
Thus if the goal is maximizing bone meal output per item input, composting raw materials is most efficient.
If the goal is to clear storage (other than by just using a garbage disposal), a few of the crafted items may be optimal...
Best Composting materials [YMMV]
Bread which yields 3x the CLI of haybales from the same raw material and via the same crafting scheme would seem always supperior to both wheat and hay.
Pumpkins (which are the highest CLI tier item that can be easily autofarmed without bonemeal) would seem to be the optimal input.
To the OP question:
In rough order (and limited to organic materials):
pumpkin seeds (byproduct of JoL production)
wheat seeds (byproduct of wheat growing)
beet seeds (lower than wheat as not much used)
feathers (byproduct of chicken farming)
cod (byproduct of guardian farming)
other fish (byproducts of fishing that greatly exceed demand)
poppies (byproduct of iron farms)
leather armor (useless byproduct of fishing and zombie farming)
beef/steak (byproduct of leather production that signifacantly exceeds the amount one can eat)
rabbit skin (byproduct of rabbit's foot production)
eggs (comparatively low as can be run through a dispenser to produce chicken etc)
prismarine crystals (oddly, but only useful for lanterns; & crystal drops will exceed the shards supply if one uses much of the prismarine blocks)
slime balls (useful, but production easily outstrips amounts needed)
bows & fishing rods (byproduct of fishing)
What's not on the list:
Most unfortunate the prejuice against automation has been allowed to affect the composter as a garbage disposal that gave some minimal value back from seeds etc would have been nice…
Math on the above is still being worked-out, between here 2X so far and (MC) Wiki 1X (considered my own, but knew it all might require Experimental results ) . But yeah, we have hints of this now, 3 sources, to the statement.
(Am leaving-out Animal products, here as I've noticed they've been studiously-avoided - felt weird about including Wool, but it's renewable without Animals dying - above; like Eggs: again)
(Partially Edited-down to focus on parts most-interesting to me in the here-and-now) :
Yeah, it's Probably not - yet as of the Snapshot, for sure - necessarily intended to be used as a "garbage disposal," but - again - actually Create something (at least theoretically, via "just" Bone Meal) new (if not-New as in an Update, New). I'll just not(ic)e here that - While - Cactus (like Lava) can be used for "item disposal ( , instantly)" (just don't Fall in /on it /them! if not in Creative Mode), we can "Compost" Cactus , so we're "destroying" - One - form of "garbage disposal," already .
Looks like someone has the same problem as me. Finally.
Mass producing chicken is super easy, they multiply with insane rate, if you use everything you can. Meaning you have philosophy of no waste.
I have too much of everything. Seeds, eggs, feathers, chicken themselves, cooked chicken…
My solution in 1.14 would be the same.
All I can do is Cook the Chicken to Feed /Heal the Dogs .
But yeah, I'd have to Dig like a whole Biome of Gravel (Mountains, Oceans), to get-enough to make (endess!) Arrows (from Feathers).
As for Eggs? it really always feels like: "kill them before they reproduce" ; I never went in for Automation of them (though did have an Egg, Dropper Pipe when that worked more-easily, however never really needed it so Water Changes with 1.13 had less-than no effect on me upon Automation) : in fear of a "World-breaking Bug" of Crashing it via Chicken, Population Explosion
Yeah, arrows are another problem of mine. Guess what. Have too many of them and have potential to make a lot more. Silexies are the only problem for them, though, as gravel is non-renewable. But I mine a lot, so I have it. And mining entire biomes? That's the stage where I am now. :-D
And feeding the dogs with chicken? Yeah, sure, but they don't consume that much.
Having some sensible population of chicken is probably best approach, but then…what to do with all the seeds, which are byproduct of producing other stuff, wheat mainly? Composter to the rescue, but…like year from now, because of forge.
As a guy, who at one point had 2400 animals in building 30 by 35, I can tell you, that you'd probably have to try really hard to crash the game with animals. However, you'll get 1 fps.
I'll give you sense of how I deal with overpopulation/production. I have automated collecting for eggs in chicken room, which I have intentionally shrunken down, to 20 by 30, I believe, so if there are a lot of those things, I cannot even see the carpets on droppers. At that point, you know, you should probably kill some of them. Like 1000. Another indicator might be about 5 fps. Collected eggs are then fired by dispensers back to chicken area, chicks are fed with seeds, they grow up, I kill them again, and the cycle continues until I get rid of supply of stuff I have too many of. This, however, leads to overproduction of feathers (too bad you cannot use them as a fuel, like 4 feathers for 1 item), which I just throw in lava. Chicken themselves then get cooked and stored. So far, current storage design is just fine, and when it will not, I have another room for it, where I can put up to 24 columns of linked chests, where 1 column has 349 slots in total.
With this, you just must think differently. Big, on large scale. But it has some benefits as well. You can run everywhere, you can play on hard, you'll have food all the time.
All great points about re-using stuff. As before.
It's kind of funny that our main Very Late in-Game problem (or not-problem) is "having too-much Food (mainly Meat)." And yes, "Meat" as itself is finally a-thing, as the Smoker (Does Cook /Smelt /Smoke Kelp -> Dried Kelp, But see next) - Copying from Wiki - (if you don't mind) :
Cooking
The player can place raw food (raw beef, raw chicken, raw rabbit, raw porkchop, raw mutton, raw cod, raw salmon, and potatoes) on a lit campfire
there, Pasted; is Now "a Thing," as it's been in-Game separated-out, (whoops, almost, was looking for and saw POTATO[ES] on 4th re-read!) Wholly from other "vegetarian options" (in my defense, who In Real Life eats only potatoes on their own, Actually?).
Again, since Only Dogs (not even Wolves, not-Tamed, kind of wish I Could Feed - or even Breed! - them, but one - again - "garbage disposal" [latest theory on how dogs In Real Life, Evolved was following "rubbish piles" of humans for over 40,000 Years, real "'junkyard' dogs," in a way]) of Any Mobs can eat Meat - Villagers can Trade for Porkchops and Chicken (as pointed-out by ScotsMiser above), so "sort of" - I end up with a Lot of Dogs @.@ . I probably get more "Dog Lag" than any given other Mob.
So I don't think it's Quite as big a deal as the (If In Real Life, again) Chicken Eggs' , issue (which In Real Life, again, are basically all-but meat, in fact). Guess it's-easier to "spear a Potato (Again, Missed That Above 'Part Of The Way Through' [Heh, Speaking Of Spearing]) with a stick" /"hold it up on a makeshift grill" (too bad about the Kelp -> can't go to -> Dried Kelp, though just saying [via Campire]) than a - starting raw, insubstantial - chicken egg ( *crack* aww).
Fact is, that - the concept (which I-guess'll "include Potatoes" XD , here) - of "Meat" in MC via-Campfire (in - yet-again also - 1.14, upcoming) "boils-down to" it's even-More "concentrated" a "nutritionally-related resource," than Bone Meal itself /Bones. But - from Real Life, expression - "Meat-and-Potatoes" is in fact also some of the most-tasty stuff, even (largely why anyone who isn't too picky of an eater can eat [Older traditional] British food with No problem).
"An embarrassment of riches," and /or "Meats (and Potatoes )." Playing on Hard (Mode /Difficulty), yes, Sprint ( /Run) -everywhere, yes; even have Food Almost-all of the time: never have to "kill 'bush meat'" (or could just Breed some first, like me, keeping Animal population same), great points about "economies of scale," you've made, here.
To me, having-"Extra" of some - in Hard Mode - Required resource, though, Never-is, such. It's just a matter of time, no matter how much of "Meat Silo" (with the "Composter" now the smallest, "veggie-focused" version, of that) one - keeps - re- Building, -stocking (post-stalking maybe even). *minds the slobbery Dogs*
What are you talking about? Composters can be automated just fine - put a hopper on top to supply items to be composted, and a hopper underneath to take out the bone meal.
What's weird to me is that you can't automate the campfire.
I have to say, the Composter isn't very good right now. I used about 50 potatos, 16 carrots, 72 Wheat, 12 Apples, 64 Saplings, and 5-6 stacks of Seeds. All for 21 Bonemeal. I know the wiki numbers may not be perfect, but looking at items in terms of efficiency they are all over the map. I'm going to try and break the efficiency down by item group.
For example, lets look at Wheat, Bread, and Hay Bales. In order for you to get 1 Bonemeal, you need to go through 7 levels of Compost. Based on the wiki stats, that means you need:
This makes Bread and Hay Bales absolutely trash for getting Bonemeal and nobody should ever use them unless they manage to get them for free, and even then you should convert the Hay Bale back to Wheat first.
Now looking at Melon Seeds, Melon Slices, and Melons, first I can say you should absolutely never convert Melon Slices to Seeds, all you do is half your efficiency.
Now a Melon drops 3-7 Slices, averaging 5. That means you could take your 14 Melons to make 1 Bonemeal, break them, and get 70 Melon Slices (approximately). That means the Melon Slice is twice as efficient as both the Melon Seed and the Melon.
Looking at Kelp, Dried Kelp, and Dried Kelp Block:
Between Kelp and Dried Kelp, obviously Kelp is more efficient as you don't need to use fuel. But considering 9 Dried Kelp makes 1 Kelp Block, you could use 35 Dried Kelp Blocks for a single Bonemeal, or get 315 Dried Kelp which will give you 4.5 Bonemeal.
Other quick ones:
Personally, I find the Composter to be largely pointless with these numbers, other than to at least get something for all the crap you have clogging your chests. But where composting can shine is automated farms like Sugar Cane, Cactus, Kelp, and the like. Something you can build and forget about to let it grow, automatically be harvested, and then feed right into a Composter.
Again, going to rule out Kelp as being feasible for this due to the slow growth and the generally pointless amount it fills a Composter. Sugar Cane and Cactus both grow about once per every 18 minutes. Because Cactus has the chance to land on itself and be destroyed and they both have the same 20% chance of raising the Compost level, Sugar Cane farms seem like the best automated farm.
An automated Pumpkin farm might be more efficient due to it having a 50% chance of increasing the Compost level, but you also have to take into account reduced efficiency due to Pumpkin Growth. Even once the stem is fully grown, you only have an X out of 4 chance for a Pumpkin to appear, where X is the number of suitable blocks for a Pumpkin to grow adjacent to the Stem. Pumpkins also need light to grow, where Sugarcane does not. I'm sure that can largely impact designs of farms, so it seems to me at first glance that Sugarcane is probably more efficient than Pumpkins within a set area.
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quote=The_Shadow
What are you talking about? Composters can be automated just fine - put a hopper on top to supply items to be composted, and a hopper underneath to take out the bone meal.
I was working from the wiki description (rather than testing in a snapshot) and the line "Hoppers can also push items into the composter from above." had not yet been added… [ https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=Composter&oldid=1305777 ]
Most pleased that composters can be automated… (Converting all the excess seed, etc is a viable proposition f I don't have to stand there clicking manually :big-grin: )
quote=Badprenup
⋮
Personally, I find the Composter to be largely pointless with these numbers, other than to at least get [i]something[/i] for all the crap you have clogging your chests. But where composting can shine is automated farms like Sugar Cane, Cactus, Kelp, and the like. Something you can build and forget about to let it grow, automatically be harvested, and then feed right into a Composter.
⋮
Sugar Cane farms seem like the best automated farm.
An automated Pumpkin farm might be more efficient due to it having a 50% chance of increasing the Compost level, but you also have to take into account reduced efficiency due to Pumpkin Growth.
⋮
it seems to me at first glance that Sugarcane is probably more efficient than Pumpkins within a set area.
Concur with analysis; for stand-alone bone farm composting, cane looks like the current optimal feedstock…
[I didn't find much difference in space requirements between cane and the most efficient (ie S-Piston&Top_slab break-from-above) melon/pumpkin farms… (These need to be half-&-half for greatest efficiency so the output is a mix of melon slices & pumpkins @~5:1)
…but, these designs rely on hopper minecart collection systems – which makes cane farms less resource expensive and less laggy.
One also has the option of further reducing lag by using slimeblock 'bars' to reduce the number of pistons firing (by a factor of 12 ! ), but at the cost of expanding one horizontal dimension of the cane farm.]
Since composting can be fed by a hopper, I'm seeing the composter a faster, quieter, and less laggy alternative to the dropper fed cactus/lava garbage disposals currently common – with a bonus of returned bonemeal.
[I take a signal from the hopper at the top of a silo; when that signal reaches strength 2, the disposal (clocked dropper) turns on until it drops back below two. This keeps the silo full and disposes of overage.
The efficiency (in terms of conversion ratio) may not be optimal for much of what is dumped, but the numbers of items are high enough I would expect the output to nicely supliment – if not supplant – skeleton farming for bones. ]
The rate for wheat seeds is definitely not 10%. I ran three double-chests of them through a composter and got 196 - just over three stacks - of bone meal out. That corresponds to 1372 composter levels.
A one-sided hypothesis test of the true mean proportion being greater than 0.10 gives a p-value of 1.3e-22. Needless to say, I reject the null hypothesis with extreme prejudice!
I calculate a 99% confidence interval of [0.12375, 0.14090] for the true mean proportion. So 0.125 is actually on the low end, though not ruled out.
I like the composter. If only I can put rotten fleshes in it.
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That would be nice, but at least you can sell rotten flesh to cleric villagers.
Shadow:
I think he saw the part about feeding from the side not being allowed, and, like myself, almost missed the part where you could use one on top to feed it. Wording on the wiki could be better organized on that point.