Argument? What argument? I've stated an opinion, nothing more. (Even if I were arguing a point - which I'm not - it being obvious would not render it invalid).
When someone makes an effort to give you something they weren't obligated to give you, something they did purely with the intent of improving your experience (their success there is subjective and irrelevant), something you aren't forced to accept (feel free to play older versions)?
Yes, it most certainly is ingratitude to complain. Extreme ingratitude.
We? Are you the nominated speaker for a group?
I wasn't speaking to you, nor about you.
For anyone who thinks they're both grateful and complaining about errors, here's a pro tip, gratitude looks like this: "Thank you..........................."
Sure, you stated an opinion. But it implied quite a bit.
"The ingratitude of many people in this thread is staggering." The implication being that people were ungrateful, and thus their criticism shouldn't exist or should be seen as unimportant.
"Mojang don't have to keep giving us updates. We bought the game as it was at the time of purchase." The implication being that we should only show gratitude because Mojang has no obligation to give us updates.
"eventually an update will be the last - enjoy Mojang's work while you still can." The implication being that we shouldn't not enjoy it while it's here because it will eventually end.
The entire tone of what you said is condescending, presumptuous, and passive-aggressively manipulative. I don't know if you realized that, but it is. That's why I treated it as an argument. Because it is an argument, just a very subtle and passive-aggressive one.
Problem with what you said: You are forced to accept Minecraft's new update gift in varying degrees. They don't do bug fixes for older versions, so you are forced to accept playing a permanently unfixed version if you don't update. If a version past the (to you) sucky latest version is something you want, you are forced to accept all the crap to get to it if you have no coding skills. If an upcoming update is half good and half crap, you must take the bad with the good if you want the good. If a server you like updates, you must update to be on that server. In some way, every update does something bad to you, and you are forced to accept that, unless you are 100% happy with every update (people rarely are).
Problem with what you said: Minecraft is a 100% subjective game. Every addition builds on your individual creativity and opinions. Therefore what is subjective is the most important and most relevant to determining Minecraft's success and future. After all, Minecraft is a creativity toy and all additions are added with the intent of catering to someone's opinions.
"We" being everyone in the group that feels that Mojang is capable of being criticized. I may not be the nominated speaker, but I am a part of the group. If you weren't speaking to people opposed to you, who were you speaking to? The people who agree with you? Agreement does nothing to further the discussion. When that happens the only thing that occurs is you feel better for being in a group. I'll admit to using "we" for similar reasons, but I tried to do something more than just that.
Gratitude can be mixed with disappointment. If someone gives you a nasty-tasting apple that took ten years to cultivate, you're grateful for the effective ten years of effort to give you the gift, but disappointed that it tastes horrible. The person who cultivated it will only give you more and make more foul-tasting fruit if you say that you liked it. The only logical thing to do is to point out that it tastes bad, even if you don't eat any more of them.
Here, Chameleonred5, is a perfect example of what I was talking about
Leslie, do you feel you have an entitlement beyond the game you bought? Do you feel Mojang is currently indebted to you, that they owe you something?
Yes, you should be grateful that you get ANYTHING more than you paid for.
Mojang doesn't owe us anything. However, they keep giving us things. These things are not free from criticism just because we don't pay for them, especially since they keep giving them to us. It is acceptable to say "thanks, but no thanks."
For most of these people, the thanks is implied. They understand that it took time and effort. This goes without saying for most people on these forums. No one thinks it cost Mojang nothing. However, for some newer features, the tone is always... "thanks, but no thanks. I'm sorry, but your apple doesn't taste good. How about we go and try to figure out what went wrong, so you can make good apples next time?."
Sure, you stated an opinion. But it implied quite a bit.
"The ingratitude of many people in this thread is staggering." The implication being that people were ungrateful, and thus their criticism shouldn't exist or should be seen as unimportant.
You're still confusing opinion with argument. My opinion is that some people are ungrateful (and apparently some people are even willing to say they're ungrateful).
"Mojang don't have to keep giving us updates. We bought the game as it was at the time of purchase." The implication being that we should only show gratitude because Mojang has no obligation to give us updates.
You should be grateful for anything you get that you aren't owed - especially as you can ignore it if you don't appreciate it.
"eventually an update will be the last - enjoy Mojang's work while you still can." The implication being that we shouldn't not enjoy it while it's here because it will eventually end.
Implication? I've said directly and explicitly that you should enjoy it while it's here - I didn't merely imply it.
The entire tone of what you said is condescending, presumptuous, and passive-aggressively manipulative. I don't know if you realized that, but it is. That's why I treated it as an argument. Because it is an argument, just a very subtle and passive-aggressive one.
As opposed to the pleasant tone of your posts?
I'll repeat: I've stated an opinion. An opinion is never right nor wrong - it's simply an opinion. You're entitled to a contrary opinion, but it has no effect on my own.
Problem with what you said: You are forced to accept Minecraft's new update gift in varying degrees. They don't do bug fixes for older versions, so you are forced to accept playing a permanently unfixed version if you don't update. If a version past the (to you) sucky latest version is something you want, you are forced to accept all the crap to get to it if you have no coding skills. If an upcoming update is half good and half crap, you must take the bad with the good if you want the good. If a server you like updates, you must update to be on that server. In some way, every update does something bad to you, and you are forced to accept that, unless you are 100% happy with every update (people rarely are).
You aren't entitled to bug fixes either.
Problem with what you said: Minecraft is a 100% subjective game. Every addition builds on your individual creativity and opinions. Therefore what is subjective is the most important and most relevant to determining Minecraft's success and future. After all, Minecraft is a creativity toy and all additions are added with the intent of catering to someone's opinions.
Please check the definition of subjective.
What's good about minecraft is subjective, not minecraft itself.
"We" being everyone in the group that feels that Mojang is capable of being criticized. I may not be the nominated speaker, but I am a part of the group. If you weren't speaking to people opposed to you, who were you speaking to? The people who agree with you? Agreement does nothing to further the discussion. When that happens the only thing that occurs is you feel better for being in a group. I'll admit to using "we" for similar reasons, but I tried to do something more than just that.
If you aren't nominated you aren't in a position to speak for anyone else.
Again, I wasn't talking about you.
I was talking about Leslie et al.
Gratitude can be mixed with disappointment. If someone gives you a nasty-tasting apple that took ten years to cultivate, you're grateful for the effective ten years of effort to give you the gift, but disappointed that it tastes horrible. The person who cultivated it will only give you more and make more foul-tasting fruit if you say that you liked it. The only logical thing to do is to point out that it tastes bad, even if you don't eat any more of them. Mojang doesn't owe us anything. However, they keep giving us things. These things are not free from criticism just because we don't pay for them, especially since they keep giving them to us. It is acceptable to say "thanks, but no thanks."
Very acceptable. You're perfectly entitled to stick with 1.7.10.
For most of these people, the thanks is implied. They understand that it took time and effort. This goes without saying for most people on these forums. No one thinks it cost Mojang nothing. However, for some newer features, the tone is always... "thanks, but no thanks. I'm sorry, but your apple doesn't taste good. How about we go and try to figure out what went wrong, so you can make good apples next time?."
Anyone whose post implies thanks is not someone I'm talking about.
Again, my post was not about you - I hadn't noticed you or your posts at all.
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First of all 1.8 took a year. NOT!!! End of Oct '13 to beginning of Sept '14 is only 10 months. If you wanna make a point please make sure the dates are right. Second of all I know you all don't care about this but mojang rewrote a lot of Code did you forget about what happened to the snaps in May/June? rewriting code is a very slow system. Third of all armor stands AR'NT for survival only, do any of you watch Sethbling? If you do you should know all the cool commands you could use for adventure maps. Also I think all of you forgot about January you guys must be rats to forget about villagers enchanting slime blocks stone variants commands flying machines rabbits endermites guardian prismarine variants colored beacons red sandstone banners iron trap doors more doors enchantment system redo villager trades are now better.
i think I've made my point mojang has made the game Better and rewriting everything dosent take a year but it takes 10 MONTH's if you don't like the new features and your on drugs then just don't update to 1.8. More epic ness for me!,
I'm not going to say they aren't obligated to making bigger patches faster, and all the other cliche things people love to say when people disagree on this forum. It's a darn shame. I come here for quality mods, and proper discussion. Proper discussion is not going to happen with people treating those who disagree with their "superior" opinions as if they are the "console peasants that soil the PC waters."
I'll be honest and bring up our best points, as one should.
span>1.8 honestly didn't give that much, considering that it took a whole year.
While I see what you mean and of course wish it would be out and published sooner, mojang's been through a lot of stuff this past year, such as fake con scams, nearly being sued, Many a flamewar, death threats, among many other things. So one might say that it's been an eventful nine months. So it's no wonder they've been taking some time.
span>The most worthy thing I found out of the updates was the new ocean guardians, which were actually pretty neat. But a lot of the stuff like the armor stands or the commands, I really don't find much interest in; plus it isn't that great since it took a whole damn year.
(Insert "that's just your opinion" cop-out here)
span>How in the world are armor stands useful? Why the heck would you want to show off your armor?
1. it's a heavily requested feature.
2. It looks nicer than keeping it in a chest.
3. No one. it's for aesthetics, not bragging rights.
4. Mapmakers.
span>but it just doesn't make sense in Minecraft.
My apologies for my rude words, but that's just laughable. There is no true theme to minecraft, unless you count a voxel-based sandbox about mining and building.
span>Also I don't get these crap load of summon commands; don't see how they are useful either.
See also: "4. Mapmakers."
span>(Other stuff they added spoiler)
What about the bug fixes? new skin options? optimization? API pres? (Don't even say anything about how it won't get done. We've all heard it before.)
span>Also, many of the features that Mojang implemented were taken from mods, such as armor stands.
Pistons. Potions. slime blocks. Redstone Blocks. Emeralds. Coal blocks. The hopper (Technically that was two mods!) So many things I'm not even going to finish that.I'm pretty sure they can any feature they wish regardless of whether it was in a mod or not.
span>such as an overhaul to the terrain generator.
What about customized worlds? 1.7? What does it take to satisfy you people?!
span> amplified just creates a mess that doesn't even make variance/sense.
Amplified is pretty much a "just for fun" setting.
span>Or just something that would actually change Minecraft.
Like, every feature ever? If you're tired of the same old game (which is, of course, the same old game) go play something else. The game won't completely change EVERYTHING just because the old one is getting boring.
In conclusion, Why should anyone care? so what you're disappointed? what will stating your disapproval achieve? It's just a waste of time.
A good thing for mapmakers in this update is that you can lock the difficulty so people can't mess around with it. I you want to change it you just type /difficulty (difficulty) . But a bad thing for a suvivalist is that you neead lapis to enchant which isnt good but considering you found diamond and obsidian... you probably have found some lapis somewhere. And besides... it gives lapis a use except for being a block and dye.
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Right now we have a few vids but we arent doing vids right now... sorry! Will resume in Janurary (maybe).
This appears to be a discussion that lacks any actual substance.
You say something and believe that it's just an opinion, rather than an assertion (which is what it actually is) or an implied argument (which is what you phrased it as). An opinion with your point of view would actually be along the lines of "I think that everything is just fine. I also don't like people who dislike updates." No room for argument there. No rational that can be argued against. The closest thing to either of those things people could counter that with would be insults or yelling, which are both poor responses. What you say does not resemble this.
I then say something and you say I'm confusing words and appear to pretend that parts of what I'm saying don't exist. I know I'm long-winded, but I would rather try to explain myself in entirety than be misunderstood.
I'm going to try one more time, and hopefully we can come to some sort of understanding.
No, your opinion is not that people are ungrateful. That's an assertion. You are asserting, as fact, that people are ungrateful. This can be disagreed with. It can be argued against. Mind you, having an opinion is not a magical shield from criticism, but you did not phrase it as an opinion, so it doesn't matter anyways.
Here are three fundamental points of what I'm saying. They're in bold to direct your attention to them. Being free does not make something free from criticism. If something is bad, it's bad regardless of how much it costs. Secondly: You can have more than one emotion for something at once. You can be grateful for the effort while you curse the ineptitude. Finally, Being ignorable also doesn't make something free of criticism. You can ignore all of the problems in the world, but that doesn't make them any better.
No. You said we should enjoy it. You implied we shouldn't not enjoy it. Double negative, sure, but they don't mean the same thing.
I've already said something about "having an opinion," so moving on: my tone. I'm a bit hostile. I'm a bit arrogant, and many times more than that. I'm a bit lazy. I'm very much long-winded. But at the very least, I try to be direct, try to avoid being condescending, and try not to have anyone talking with me trying to read my mind. I try not to pretend as if what I'm saying is flawless, and if I notice mistakes I will apologize for them. If, however, you're going to put out what I perceive as flawed logic on any level, from direct arguments to "opinions" that you explain the logic behind, I'm going to try and pick it apart until someone is disproven. This is just how I am. Arguing is fun to me. If you don't want to talk with me, just let me know.
I'm not entitled to bug fixes? Unlike features, bug fixes are something I feel entitled to. If Mojang sells me a game, I would hope that they actually repair the broken bits, no? I understand what you're saying about Mojang's obligation to provide them, but if they're going to make them anyways, couldn't they make them separately to the updates? It's obnoxious to choose between an eternally buggy 'good' version and a 'bad' version in which all the problems are fixed but all of the changes are displeasing. Doesn't Mojang have an obligation to themselves to make the best game they can possibly make? Don't they have an obligation to themselves to keep it fun for everyone? Isn't part of that realizing that not everyone likes everything they produce and making sure that those people can have the ability to toggle things off without losing out on bug fixes?
Everything created in Minecraft is created with the goal of increasing a user's experience. That's what I would call created purely for the subjective response. Therefore that subjective response is the most important thing to concentrate on. Even if the subjective response is duplicated by many, it's still a subjective response.
"If you're not nominated, you can't speak for anyone in your group." This is untrue. There are many examples to demonstrate this.
Doesn't matter if you weren't talking about me. I attack what I perceive as faulty logic. If you're wrong, then you're wrong, whether it's about me or not.
I'm entitled to stick to 1.7.10, except it's unplayable. It averages 0-10 FPS. Same with pretty much all the 1.7 updates. I'd go back farther, except 1.7 actually has some things I like. Now, I like 1.8, but what if I didn't? I get 35-50 FPS on the pre-release. A huge optimization. Loads of bug fixes. I'm entitled to stick with 1.7.10, but I'm more or less forced to update if I want anything repaired. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. That's not something I should be grateful for. That's like giving a man missing a leg a wooden one that stabs him with pain every time he walks.
Everyone implies thanks. Or rather, they feel that it doesn't need to be mentioned, because everyone knows that Mojang is doing what they're doing. Would you simply rather people say it more? Leslie thought you were asking people to go beyond this implicit thanks into outright worship, otherwise they wouldn't have reacted the way they did to the concept. Doesn't this indicate anything to you? People don't want to sit through a ritual of "Thanks for this game Mojang. Now let's move on to what I actually want to talk about" every time they want to say something bad about the game. That's just wasting time that could be better wasted.
You should be grateful for anything you get that you aren't owed - especially as you can ignore it if you don't appreciate it.
And I'm still trying to make myself understood - let's sort one thing out, that not every Mojang update is a good thing, not even when we rule out opportunity cost. What some people ask for is very, very simple - like me - that is stop breaking stuff via gratuitous updates and leave us alone.
Really, just leave us alone.
The biggest trouble of Mojang updates is the product quality - they constantly want to break and rebuild everything, and since they are not capable of keeping this activity to themselves, we unfortunate players need to suffer the same breaking and rebuilding process. Every new version of Minecraft means a couple weeks of 'experimental play' - anything can break, new features, old features, pre-releases, official updates - you just can't enjoy the game without being distracted, unless you simply stay at some random version and hope modders still support that version a century later.
And remember what they say ? Move on or die.
The other trouble is for our masochist modders. New version = rewrite = move on or die. Each new version is a massacre. If you are good then you survive, but hey, nobody is asking for such a challenge. Now people are gonna recite from some Mojang bible and tell me there's gonna be a 'Mod API' thing - let's just stop lying to ourselves and accept that the 'Mod API' thing is not gonna happen until Mojang grows up.
There's a struggling 3-year-old server that I appreciate here, they just upgraded to 1.6.4 recently. Yes they upgraded from 1.4.7 to 1.6.4 in August 2014. This is a server with a long history of construction with mod usage but none of the crew is really technically sophisticated or has that sufficient time to deal with the trouble of an upgrade.
I guess what Mojang really wants is to see modded server die so everyone plays vanilla. Of course they are gonna say they don't mean it, but my take on this is , they cannot help it. They are just not capable of caring for whatever is not theirs.
This appears to be a discussion that lacks any actual substance.
Yes, you are determined to argue against an opinion, and prove it wrong. An impossible task.
You say something and believe that it's just an opinion, rather than an assertion (which is what it actually is) or an implied argument (which is what you phrased it as). An opinion with your point of view would actually be along the lines of "I think that everything is just fine. I also don't like people who dislike updates." No room for argument there. No rational that can be argued against. The closest thing to either of those things people could counter that with would be insults or yelling, which are both poor responses. What you say does not resemble this.I then say something and you say I'm confusing words and appear to pretend that parts of what I'm saying don't exist. I know I'm long-winded, but I would rather try to explain myself in entirety than be misunderstood.I'm going to try one more time, and hopefully we can come to some sort of understanding.No, your opinion is not that people are ungrateful. That's an assertion. You are asserting, as fact, that people are ungrateful. This can be disagreed with. It can be argued against. Mind you, having an opinion is not a magical shield from criticism, but you did not phrase it as an opinion, so it doesn't matter anyways.
I'm stating an opinion. Not a fact, or something I am asserting to be fact.
Don't tell me what my opinion is. I know what it is: in my opinion, some people in this thread are ungrateful. You can argue with that until you're blue in the face, but it will remain unaffected.
Here are three fundamental points of what I'm saying. They're in bold to direct your attention to them. Being free does not make something free from criticism. If something is bad, it's bad regardless of how much it costs. Secondly: You can have more than one emotion for something at once. You can be grateful for the effort while you curse the ineptitude. Finally, Being ignorable also doesn't make something free of criticism. You can ignore all of the problems in the world, but that doesn't make them any better.
I've made no comment on constructive criticism of 1.8. I don't think 1.8 is perfect, but I'm very, very grateful for it.
My comment has been on the lack of gratitude for 1.8. As you've correctly pointed out, the two are independent.
I repeat: some people here are astoundingly ungrateful.
No. You said we should enjoy it. You implied we shouldn't not enjoy it. Double negative, sure, but they don't mean the same thing.
Let me get this straight: if I say "You should X", I am implying "You shouldn't not X". I can only assume you're joking.
For future reference, you're incorrect: yes, they do mean the same thing.
I'm not entitled to bug fixes? Unlike features, bug fixes are something I feel entitled to. If Mojang sells me a game, I would hope that they actually repair the broken bits, no? I understand what you're saying about Mojang's obligation to provide them, but if they're going to make them anyways, couldn't they make them separately to the updates? It's obnoxious to choose between an eternally buggy 'good' version and a 'bad' version in which all the problems are fixed but all of the changes are displeasing. Doesn't Mojang have an obligation to themselves to make the best game they can possibly make? Don't they have an obligation to themselves to keep it fun for everyone? Isn't part of that realizing that not everyone likes everything they produce and making sure that those people can have the ability to toggle things off without losing out on bug fixes?
It may be good business practice to provide bug fixes, depending on bug severity, the age of the game, the cost to provide them, etc.
But no, you absolutely are not entitled to bug fixes in any way.
"If you're not nominated, you can't speak for anyone in your group." This is untrue. There are many examples to demonstrate this.
"Your group"? What group? Not only have I not agreed you're in the group I was referring to, I've explicitly told you you are not part of the group I was referring to.
But, please feel free to elaborate, and provide some of these many examples.
Doesn't matter if you weren't talking about me. I attack what I perceive as faulty logic. If you're wrong, then you're wrong, whether it's about me or not. When I make a logical deduction here feel free to assess it.
While I continue to offer nothing more than an opinion you'll have be happy for your attacks to be ineffectual.I'm entitled to stick to 1.7.10, except it's unplayable. It averages 0-10 FPS. Same with pretty much all the 1.7 updates. I'd go back farther, except 1.7 actually has some things I like. Now, I like 1.8, but what if I didn't? I get 35-50 FPS on the pre-release. A huge optimization. Loads of bug fixes. I'm entitled to stick with 1.7.10, but I'm more or less forced to update if I want anything repaired. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. That's not something I should be grateful for. That's like giving a man missing a leg a wooden one that stabs him with pain every time he walks.
So you'd like to have your cake, and eat it too?
Go back to the version that was current when you paid. Obviously you felt that one was worth the asking price.
Everyone implies thanks. Or rather, they feel that it doesn't need to be mentioned, because everyone knows that Mojang is doing what they're doing. Would you simply rather people say it more? Leslie thought you were asking people to go beyond this implicit thanks into outright worship, otherwise they wouldn't have reacted the way they did to the concept. Doesn't this indicate anything to you? People don't want to sit through a ritual of "Thanks for this game Mojang. Now let's move on to what I actually want to talk about" every time they want to say something bad about the game. That's just wasting time that could be better wasted.
Speaking for others again?
I very strongly disagree. In my opinion (only he knows for sure, of course) Leslie most definitely was not implying any thanks. In case the memory is fading, here's what he said:
And I'm still trying to make myself understood - let's sort one thing out, that not every Mojang update is a good thing, not even when we rule out opportunity cost. What some people ask for is very, very simple - like me - that is stop breaking stuff via gratuitous updates and leave us alone.
Really, just leave us alone.
You know your wish is trivially fulfilled, surely?
Go back to an older version - they'll leave you alone there forever.
Ugg. Ok guys, this is honestly getting out of hand. They added a bunch of features. Anyone can see that (see mcwiki). Some people don't like the new stuffs, some do. A lot of this stuff has really helped people who do command blocks and such. A lot of stuff adds an extra exploration factor to survival (monument), and a lot adds new stuff for those who love creative (the new blocks and commands).
The main argument here is that Mojang wasted almost a year in not adding cool stuffs. This is partially true. There was a massive gap of nothing in May, then up until a month or two ago, thats when stuff happened. I agree that Mojang could have done more in the time span, but much of their time was spent was to help with block models and rendering, plus Official Plugin API (From knowing the members on this forum you guys are gonna argue saying that "API HAS BEEN IN PRODUCTION FOR TWO YEARS, GET ON WITH IT, MOJANG!" in reality making an official modding API that works with all versions of Minecraft and such takes a LONG time. Now you guys will say that "Mojang has a full development team and they should be doing a better job!" I can agree but it's more about what they think is good for their game versus what YOU think should be in the game. I can see some good arguments to this, and I would like to see what you guys think about it.
For someone like me 1.8 has been a marvelous update with plenty of new features to keep a redstoner and builder like me occupied for hours.
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Badprenup said:
"Ignore the people saying that [x] will be the end of Minecraft and that [developer] is basically Satan + Hitler."
~dude, its not always what the item can be used for, other people made great things with said items.
~I know a redstoner (Sethbling) made lots of redstone/command blocks related things with armour stands., for god sakes he made one of those drinking birds from armour stands! you can even make a fight scene with armour stands..
~people do have lives outside of just coding minecraft.. Mojang are busy with other projects + their own lives.
~so what if they take some stuff from mods? atleast they ask the owner first.
~terrain generation is fine how it is, amplied was just for fun really.
The thing about armour stands is that they are 'only' useful for redstone / command block / technical stuff which is not at all what the original purpose of an armour stand is. It has no real gameplay advantage in survival by the looks of it, you still need to manually take off your armour piece by piece and manually put each piece on the armour stand, so it doesn't make changing or managing armour any faster compared to the inventory swapping method.
Besides the aesthetic appeal and the novelty it doesn't really offer much in terms of gameplay for survival. Now if Mojang were to add a feature to it where once you click on the stand with an empty hand you automatically place all the armour you are currently wearing, and likewise automatically put on all armour pieces on the stand when empty hand clicking a non-empty one, that would have me interested. Or is something like this already possible and I just haven't figured out the correct key combos yet?
First of all 1.8 took a year. NOT!!! End of Oct '13 to beginning of Sept '14 is only 10 months. If you wanna make a point please make sure the dates are right. Second of all I know you all don't care about this but mojang rewrote a lot of Code did you forget about what happened to the snaps in May/June? rewriting code is a very slow system. Third of all armor stands AR'NT for survival only, do any of you watch Sethbling? If you do you should know all the cool commands you could use for adventure maps. Also I think all of you forgot about January you guys must be rats to forget about villagers enchanting slime blocks stone variants commands flying machines rabbits endermites guardian prismarine variants colored beacons red sandstone banners iron trap doors more doors enchantment system redo villager trades are now better.
i think I've made my point mojang has made the game Better and rewriting everything dosent take a year but it takes 10 MONTH's if you don't like the new features and your on drugs then just don't update to 1.8. More epic ness for me!,
are you mad?
but to say to the general amount of people on this thread, why do you people get into a rage when some one says they don't like the update its there OPINION. i mean if they don't like the update does it really hurt you? if i say i don't like 1.8 is that going to ruin your life? (i really hope not) but for the time this update was being worked on didn't add a lot to the core game. but you people need to calm down learn the meaning of OPINION and relax its just a game not real life lol
(sorry ptobey i saw your comment and thought i would post a message to all the people who are raging on this thread not singling you out of the group but more of an example)
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"good night, good luck" -dying light
i think we should all use common sense and logic when we answer and ask a question but always stay open minded
just cause science fails to explain something does not mean its real (afterlife,big foot, ghosts etc..) does not mean its fake try to stay opened mined instead of closed
but to say to the general amount of people on this thread, why do you people get into a rage when some one says they don't like the update its there OPINION. i mean if they don't like the update does it really hurt you? if i say i don't like 1.8 is that going to ruin your life? (i really hope not) but for the time this update was being worked on didn't add a lot to the core game. but you people need to calm down learn the meaning of OPINION and relax its just a game not real life lol
(sorry ptobey i saw your comment and thought i would post a message to all the people who are raging on this thread not singling you out of the group but more of an example)
They just added Wedge, a mod created my TheMogMiner himself, without even making it user-friendly. I mean, it's already quite sad they keep taking mods into the game instead of creating something you would expect from a paid professional but they took months to implement code wrote by one of them and they even didn't think of revamping it to make it simpler, more intuitive and more powerful; for example, try having a map with not many caves, high rolling hills and large flat beaches: it takes hours of frustrating trial and error to realize it's goddamn impossible.
And don't even get me started on the "optimization" that is making the game almost impossible to play on my old laptop that used to run 1.6.4 just fine.
The above represent 90% of the update from the perspective of someone who just wants to play the game and not make it prettier or more fit to a plugin API that is going to happen so late it'll probably be irrelevant. It's disappointing to say the least.
Think about it this way. They add features players really want, said feature is so wanted that players spent the time making a mod to put it into the game. over time it became so popular because even more players wanted it. So they add it to the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A question that sometimes drives me hazy; am I or the others crazy?"-Albert Einstein
One is never lost, merely unknowingly exploring.-Me
Sure, you stated an opinion. But it implied quite a bit.
"The ingratitude of many people in this thread is staggering." The implication being that people were ungrateful, and thus their criticism shouldn't exist or should be seen as unimportant.
"Mojang don't have to keep giving us updates. We bought the game as it was at the time of purchase." The implication being that we should only show gratitude because Mojang has no obligation to give us updates.
"eventually an update will be the last - enjoy Mojang's work while you still can." The implication being that we shouldn't not enjoy it while it's here because it will eventually end.
The entire tone of what you said is condescending, presumptuous, and passive-aggressively manipulative. I don't know if you realized that, but it is. That's why I treated it as an argument. Because it is an argument, just a very subtle and passive-aggressive one.
Problem with what you said: You are forced to accept Minecraft's new update gift in varying degrees. They don't do bug fixes for older versions, so you are forced to accept playing a permanently unfixed version if you don't update. If a version past the (to you) sucky latest version is something you want, you are forced to accept all the crap to get to it if you have no coding skills. If an upcoming update is half good and half crap, you must take the bad with the good if you want the good. If a server you like updates, you must update to be on that server. In some way, every update does something bad to you, and you are forced to accept that, unless you are 100% happy with every update (people rarely are).
Problem with what you said: Minecraft is a 100% subjective game. Every addition builds on your individual creativity and opinions. Therefore what is subjective is the most important and most relevant to determining Minecraft's success and future. After all, Minecraft is a creativity toy and all additions are added with the intent of catering to someone's opinions.
"We" being everyone in the group that feels that Mojang is capable of being criticized. I may not be the nominated speaker, but I am a part of the group. If you weren't speaking to people opposed to you, who were you speaking to? The people who agree with you? Agreement does nothing to further the discussion. When that happens the only thing that occurs is you feel better for being in a group. I'll admit to using "we" for similar reasons, but I tried to do something more than just that.
Gratitude can be mixed with disappointment. If someone gives you a nasty-tasting apple that took ten years to cultivate, you're grateful for the effective ten years of effort to give you the gift, but disappointed that it tastes horrible. The person who cultivated it will only give you more and make more foul-tasting fruit if you say that you liked it. The only logical thing to do is to point out that it tastes bad, even if you don't eat any more of them.
Mojang doesn't owe us anything. However, they keep giving us things. These things are not free from criticism just because we don't pay for them, especially since they keep giving them to us. It is acceptable to say "thanks, but no thanks."
For most of these people, the thanks is implied. They understand that it took time and effort. This goes without saying for most people on these forums. No one thinks it cost Mojang nothing. However, for some newer features, the tone is always... "thanks, but no thanks. I'm sorry, but your apple doesn't taste good. How about we go and try to figure out what went wrong, so you can make good apples next time?."
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
"We" being who?
You may be grateful. Some are clearly not.
You're still confusing opinion with argument. My opinion is that some people are ungrateful (and apparently some people are even willing to say they're ungrateful).
You should be grateful for anything you get that you aren't owed - especially as you can ignore it if you don't appreciate it.
Implication? I've said directly and explicitly that you should enjoy it while it's here - I didn't merely imply it.
As opposed to the pleasant tone of your posts?
I'll repeat: I've stated an opinion. An opinion is never right nor wrong - it's simply an opinion. You're entitled to a contrary opinion, but it has no effect on my own.
You aren't entitled to bug fixes either.
Please check the definition of subjective.
What's good about minecraft is subjective, not minecraft itself.
If you aren't nominated you aren't in a position to speak for anyone else.
Again, I wasn't talking about you.
I was talking about Leslie et al.
Very acceptable. You're perfectly entitled to stick with 1.7.10.
Anyone whose post implies thanks is not someone I'm talking about.
Again, my post was not about you - I hadn't noticed you or your posts at all.
i think I've made my point mojang has made the game Better and rewriting everything dosent take a year but it takes 10 MONTH's if you don't like the new features and your on drugs then just don't update to 1.8. More epic ness for me!,
I'm not going to say they aren't obligated to making bigger patches faster, and all the other cliche things people love to say when people disagree on this forum. It's a darn shame. I come here for quality mods, and proper discussion. Proper discussion is not going to happen with people treating those who disagree with their "superior" opinions as if they are the "console peasants that soil the PC waters."
I'll be honest and bring up our best points, as one should.
While I see what you mean and of course wish it would be out and published sooner, mojang's been through a lot of stuff this past year, such as fake con scams, nearly being sued, Many a flamewar, death threats, among many other things. So one might say that it's been an eventful nine months. So it's no wonder they've been taking some time.
(Insert "that's just your opinion" cop-out here)
1. it's a heavily requested feature.
2. It looks nicer than keeping it in a chest.
3. No one. it's for aesthetics, not bragging rights.
4. Mapmakers.
My apologies for my rude words, but that's just laughable. There is no true theme to minecraft, unless you count a voxel-based sandbox about mining and building.
See also: "4. Mapmakers."
What about the bug fixes? new skin options? optimization? API pres? (Don't even say anything about how it won't get done. We've all heard it before.)
Pistons. Potions. slime blocks. Redstone Blocks. Emeralds. Coal blocks. The hopper (Technically that was two mods!) So many things I'm not even going to finish that. I'm pretty sure they can any feature they wish regardless of whether it was in a mod or not.
What about customized worlds? 1.7? What does it take to satisfy you people?!
Amplified is pretty much a "just for fun" setting.
Like, every feature ever? If you're tired of the same old game (which is, of course, the same old game) go play something else. The game won't completely change EVERYTHING just because the old one is getting boring.
In conclusion, Why should anyone care? so what you're disappointed? what will stating your disapproval achieve? It's just a waste of time.
This appears to be a discussion that lacks any actual substance.
You say something and believe that it's just an opinion, rather than an assertion (which is what it actually is) or an implied argument (which is what you phrased it as). An opinion with your point of view would actually be along the lines of "I think that everything is just fine. I also don't like people who dislike updates." No room for argument there. No rational that can be argued against. The closest thing to either of those things people could counter that with would be insults or yelling, which are both poor responses. What you say does not resemble this.
I then say something and you say I'm confusing words and appear to pretend that parts of what I'm saying don't exist. I know I'm long-winded, but I would rather try to explain myself in entirety than be misunderstood.
I'm going to try one more time, and hopefully we can come to some sort of understanding.
No, your opinion is not that people are ungrateful. That's an assertion. You are asserting, as fact, that people are ungrateful. This can be disagreed with. It can be argued against. Mind you, having an opinion is not a magical shield from criticism, but you did not phrase it as an opinion, so it doesn't matter anyways.
Here are three fundamental points of what I'm saying. They're in bold to direct your attention to them. Being free does not make something free from criticism. If something is bad, it's bad regardless of how much it costs. Secondly: You can have more than one emotion for something at once. You can be grateful for the effort while you curse the ineptitude. Finally, Being ignorable also doesn't make something free of criticism. You can ignore all of the problems in the world, but that doesn't make them any better.
No. You said we should enjoy it. You implied we shouldn't not enjoy it. Double negative, sure, but they don't mean the same thing.
I've already said something about "having an opinion," so moving on: my tone. I'm a bit hostile. I'm a bit arrogant, and many times more than that. I'm a bit lazy. I'm very much long-winded. But at the very least, I try to be direct, try to avoid being condescending, and try not to have anyone talking with me trying to read my mind. I try not to pretend as if what I'm saying is flawless, and if I notice mistakes I will apologize for them. If, however, you're going to put out what I perceive as flawed logic on any level, from direct arguments to "opinions" that you explain the logic behind, I'm going to try and pick it apart until someone is disproven. This is just how I am. Arguing is fun to me. If you don't want to talk with me, just let me know.
I'm not entitled to bug fixes? Unlike features, bug fixes are something I feel entitled to. If Mojang sells me a game, I would hope that they actually repair the broken bits, no? I understand what you're saying about Mojang's obligation to provide them, but if they're going to make them anyways, couldn't they make them separately to the updates? It's obnoxious to choose between an eternally buggy 'good' version and a 'bad' version in which all the problems are fixed but all of the changes are displeasing. Doesn't Mojang have an obligation to themselves to make the best game they can possibly make? Don't they have an obligation to themselves to keep it fun for everyone? Isn't part of that realizing that not everyone likes everything they produce and making sure that those people can have the ability to toggle things off without losing out on bug fixes?
Everything created in Minecraft is created with the goal of increasing a user's experience. That's what I would call created purely for the subjective response. Therefore that subjective response is the most important thing to concentrate on. Even if the subjective response is duplicated by many, it's still a subjective response.
"If you're not nominated, you can't speak for anyone in your group." This is untrue. There are many examples to demonstrate this.
Doesn't matter if you weren't talking about me. I attack what I perceive as faulty logic. If you're wrong, then you're wrong, whether it's about me or not.
I'm entitled to stick to 1.7.10, except it's unplayable. It averages 0-10 FPS. Same with pretty much all the 1.7 updates. I'd go back farther, except 1.7 actually has some things I like. Now, I like 1.8, but what if I didn't? I get 35-50 FPS on the pre-release. A huge optimization. Loads of bug fixes. I'm entitled to stick with 1.7.10, but I'm more or less forced to update if I want anything repaired. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. That's not something I should be grateful for. That's like giving a man missing a leg a wooden one that stabs him with pain every time he walks.
Everyone implies thanks. Or rather, they feel that it doesn't need to be mentioned, because everyone knows that Mojang is doing what they're doing. Would you simply rather people say it more? Leslie thought you were asking people to go beyond this implicit thanks into outright worship, otherwise they wouldn't have reacted the way they did to the concept. Doesn't this indicate anything to you? People don't want to sit through a ritual of "Thanks for this game Mojang. Now let's move on to what I actually want to talk about" every time they want to say something bad about the game. That's just wasting time that could be better wasted.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
And I'm still trying to make myself understood - let's sort one thing out, that not every Mojang update is a good thing, not even when we rule out opportunity cost. What some people ask for is very, very simple - like me - that is stop breaking stuff via gratuitous updates and leave us alone.
Really, just leave us alone.
The biggest trouble of Mojang updates is the product quality - they constantly want to break and rebuild everything, and since they are not capable of keeping this activity to themselves, we unfortunate players need to suffer the same breaking and rebuilding process. Every new version of Minecraft means a couple weeks of 'experimental play' - anything can break, new features, old features, pre-releases, official updates - you just can't enjoy the game without being distracted, unless you simply stay at some random version and hope modders still support that version a century later.
And remember what they say ? Move on or die.
The other trouble is for our masochist modders. New version = rewrite = move on or die. Each new version is a massacre. If you are good then you survive, but hey, nobody is asking for such a challenge. Now people are gonna recite from some Mojang bible and tell me there's gonna be a 'Mod API' thing - let's just stop lying to ourselves and accept that the 'Mod API' thing is not gonna happen until Mojang grows up.
There's a struggling 3-year-old server that I appreciate here, they just upgraded to 1.6.4 recently. Yes they upgraded from 1.4.7 to 1.6.4 in August 2014. This is a server with a long history of construction with mod usage but none of the crew is really technically sophisticated or has that sufficient time to deal with the trouble of an upgrade.
I guess what Mojang really wants is to see modded server die so everyone plays vanilla. Of course they are gonna say they don't mean it, but my take on this is , they cannot help it. They are just not capable of caring for whatever is not theirs.
Yes, you are determined to argue against an opinion, and prove it wrong. An impossible task.
I'm stating an opinion. Not a fact, or something I am asserting to be fact.
Don't tell me what my opinion is. I know what it is: in my opinion, some people in this thread are ungrateful. You can argue with that until you're blue in the face, but it will remain unaffected.
I've made no comment on constructive criticism of 1.8. I don't think 1.8 is perfect, but I'm very, very grateful for it.
My comment has been on the lack of gratitude for 1.8. As you've correctly pointed out, the two are independent.
I repeat: some people here are astoundingly ungrateful.
Let me get this straight: if I say "You should X", I am implying "You shouldn't not X". I can only assume you're joking.
For future reference, you're incorrect: yes, they do mean the same thing.
It may be good business practice to provide bug fixes, depending on bug severity, the age of the game, the cost to provide them, etc.
But no, you absolutely are not entitled to bug fixes in any way.
"Your group"? What group? Not only have I not agreed you're in the group I was referring to, I've explicitly told you you are not part of the group I was referring to.
But, please feel free to elaborate, and provide some of these many examples.
So you'd like to have your cake, and eat it too?
Go back to the version that was current when you paid. Obviously you felt that one was worth the asking price.
Speaking for others again?
I very strongly disagree. In my opinion (only he knows for sure, of course) Leslie most definitely was not implying any thanks. In case the memory is fading, here's what he said:
No matter how much I strain, I just can't taste the gratitude you say is there!
You know your wish is trivially fulfilled, surely?
Go back to an older version - they'll leave you alone there forever.
Then let me just wrap it up and call you a moron. God save me some typing. Let's just ignore each other.
Is 1.8 fixing a terrible bug you can't live with?
If you choose to update then you must feel the update is of net benefit to you. Gratitude is appropriate.
In no aspect of your life, at any time of your life, will you ever get everything you want. Be grateful for the bits you do get.
The main argument here is that Mojang wasted almost a year in not adding cool stuffs. This is partially true. There was a massive gap of nothing in May, then up until a month or two ago, thats when stuff happened. I agree that Mojang could have done more in the time span, but much of their time was spent was to help with block models and rendering, plus Official Plugin API (From knowing the members on this forum you guys are gonna argue saying that "API HAS BEEN IN PRODUCTION FOR TWO YEARS, GET ON WITH IT, MOJANG!" in reality making an official modding API that works with all versions of Minecraft and such takes a LONG time. Now you guys will say that "Mojang has a full development team and they should be doing a better job!" I can agree but it's more about what they think is good for their game versus what YOU think should be in the game. I can see some good arguments to this, and I would like to see what you guys think about it.
For someone like me 1.8 has been a marvelous update with plenty of new features to keep a redstoner and builder like me occupied for hours.
Badprenup said:
"Ignore the people saying that [x] will be the end of Minecraft and that [developer] is basically Satan + Hitler."
~I know a redstoner (Sethbling) made lots of redstone/command blocks related things with armour stands., for god sakes he made one of those drinking birds from armour stands! you can even make a fight scene with armour stands..
~people do have lives outside of just coding minecraft.. Mojang are busy with other projects + their own lives.
~so what if they take some stuff from mods? atleast they ask the owner first.
~terrain generation is fine how it is, amplied was just for fun really.
http://dragcave.net/user/BLU3_N1NJA
I buy you a $2000 computer which doesn't have everything you want
You aren't entitled to it anyway
Besides the aesthetic appeal and the novelty it doesn't really offer much in terms of gameplay for survival. Now if Mojang were to add a feature to it where once you click on the stand with an empty hand you automatically place all the armour you are currently wearing, and likewise automatically put on all armour pieces on the stand when empty hand clicking a non-empty one, that would have me interested. Or is something like this already possible and I just haven't figured out the correct key combos yet?
are you mad?
but to say to the general amount of people on this thread, why do you people get into a rage when some one says they don't like the update its there OPINION. i mean if they don't like the update does it really hurt you? if i say i don't like 1.8 is that going to ruin your life? (i really hope not) but for the time this update was being worked on didn't add a lot to the core game. but you people need to calm down learn the meaning of OPINION and relax its just a game not real life lol
(sorry ptobey i saw your comment and thought i would post a message to all the people who are raging on this thread not singling you out of the group but more of an example)
"good night, good luck" -dying light
i think we should all use common sense and logic when we answer and ask a question but always stay open minded
just cause science fails to explain something does not mean its real (afterlife,big foot, ghosts etc..) does not mean its fake try to stay opened mined instead of closed
I just think of it as opinions of opinions. xD
My DerpChannel-I MEAN YouTube channel! --> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMJmGoqgWEh96OmoRFKO60w
Yep.
Think about it this way. They add features players really want, said feature is so wanted that players spent the time making a mod to put it into the game. over time it became so popular because even more players wanted it. So they add it to the game.
One is never lost, merely unknowingly exploring.-Me