Modern, I with great nostalgia remember being able to block with swords and it was awesome, but shields are better. Skeletons aren't unbeleivably scary and a creeper's hiss doesn't instantly result in loss of 2 hoursworth of mining. Shields are cool.
and a creeper's hiss doesn't instantly result in loss of 2 hoursworth of mining
Armor was WAY stronger before 1.9 though; a creeper explodes in my face? No problem, only a few hearts lost. Not since 1.9 though, and shields must be used and aimed at an attacker in order to be effective (I rarely block with a sword, just depend on good armor to tank anything). You also have a better chance of killing them before they explode, especially when there are multiple creepers (damage against a single target is only slightly higher, from 1.6 to 2 attacks per second, but multiple targets scale, you just need to be able to retarget each one fast enough and I can do so to often have 2-3 mobs at once flying about or dying from being hit).
That's why my own alternate development path mod (since 1.6.4) features a proper "anti-spam-click" penalty system - you have unlimited attack speed / DPS as long as you can accurately retarget multiple opponents (Knockback works very well here), you only get penalized (reduced damage) if you miss too often (once per second or more) or attack a target that is immune from your previous attack (and even then since a max Sharpness V sword deals 14.25 damage, instead of 11, you have a buffer before it drops below the 2 hits/kill point). Even this very lenient system is still too much for some players e.g. somebody streamed their attempt at playing on Hardcore, with multiple deaths before they decided the mod was impossibly difficult (at one point they called it the "worst alternative timeline of Minecraft"), even though they only fought a few mobs at any one time (the last death in particular simply shouldn't have happened, do they not know how to fight endermen? A 2 block high ceiling works wonders):
Deaths at 16:00, 55:50, and 2:14:00:
I also nerfed armor and weapons but only for players; diamond has the protection of iron, which is in turn like chainmail, etc (leather is the same as before as it is already very weak), while creepers deal less damage to offset this (thus for the same damage inflected by creepers after armor you'll take more damage from other sources; in order to get the best armor and weapons you need to make "amethyst" items (no relation at all to the item in modern versions, I added all this a decade ago), which is much rarer than diamond, similar to ancient debris/netherite (there is about 0.4 amethyst ore vs 1.6 ancient debris (0.4 netherite ingots) per chunk, though you only need one ingot to upgrade items while amethyst works like other materials, 1-8 per item).
I also added armor penetration but only for axes, as my way of making them more specialized than just a slightly inferior sword (as they still do the old damage, 1 less than a sword of the same tier); simply making it apply to all sources of non-magic damage (which already weren't reduced by armor) is just really cheap, making creepers unbelievably overpowered - in fact, if you look at older articles in the Wiki you'll see that they used to deal more damage (49 instead of the current 43), which was changed so you can just barely survive a point-blank hit in full Protection IV diamond armor on Hard (prior to 1.9 unenchanted diamond armor was better, still leaving you at only 2 1/2 hearts).
Even better, I added a gamerule so you can disable the attack penalty, something which Mojang refuses to do despite continued complaints to this day, and oddly enough, Bedrock Edition (the most popular edition by far) still doesn't have an attack cooldown (it does have shields and other mechanics. I've heard this is due to limitations of controllers for consoles but PC players can use the same controls as Java).
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Honestly I think modern PVPs better. It just makes more sense to me that there are cooldowns and stuff like every other game. I do understand though why people are mad at the update because they already had a good PVP system (and also the stone axe thing lol). But it's been like 8 years, so i think we already had time to understand it.
Honestly I think modern PVPs better. It just makes more sense to me that there are cooldowns and stuff like every other game. I do understand though why people are mad at the update because they already had a good PVP system (and also the stone axe thing lol). But it's been like 8 years, so i think we already had time to understand it.
I'm curious though, what about PvE? How do you handle stuff like this? Even my system* (or the old one, which only differ in what happens if you miss too much or attack a mob while it is red from a previous player attack, unless you can deal more damage) can be overwhelmed by the sheer number of mobs I've encountered at once, killing as many as a thousand in a single day while exploring a single large cave:
(even as I stopped playing at this point you can see there is a big crowd of mobs around me)
*The video I previously posted also shows the effect of my anti-spam-click penalty when you abuse it as if you are playing vanilla 1.6.4 (they hadn't read up on anything about the mod and just assumed it worked like 1.6.4), one thing you may notice is how quickly their swords broke, since prior to 1.7 weapons lost durability on every attack, not just ones that actually inflicted damage (I disagree with the resolution of this as a bug that needed to be fixed; after all, bows lose durability every time you fire them, whether or not the arrow inflicts damage):
Cows at 19:10 (a stone sword should kill them in 2 normal hits); pigs at 25:45 (same as cows, their sword also breaks after killing way less mobs than the 66 a stone sword should have been able to kill); 43:25 is when they start caving and fighting hostile mobs, ending at 56:00 when a creeper blows them up (in particular, at the beginning they use up a third of a stone sword on a single unarmored zombie, then an entire stone pickaxe on a zombie in chainmail). Finally, around 1:17:00 is when they realize they something like an attack delay must be present and try attacking more slowly (no, you don't need to "charge" attacks / perform crits, or attack slower than the damage immunity time of a single mob, against multiple mobs you can attack each one in turn while the other is still recovering, increasing the attack rate by 2 per second per mob, which is where it really differs from 1.9, in addition to having no initial cooldown upon selecting an item*):
*I often switch items so fast that it bugs out because the game doesn't update the player's attributes, like attack damage, until the following tick, leading to erroneous damage values (such as a diamond sword dealing the damage of a fist, or a piece of food dealing the damage of a diamond sword; enchantments are still applied correctly):
In my consensus. I think Modern PVP and 1.8 PVP both require skills in specific areas of the ART of PVP. For Example, In 1.8 due to the absence of a Delay in hitting, you can easily click fast to defeat your opponent. But 1.8 also requires one to have strafing skills so your opponent doesnt combo you to oblivion! it is very easy to get comboed while doing a combo in 1.8. It also significantly requires skills such as W tapping which is a loophole in minecraft to deal more knockback to your opponent, especially useful in gamemodes such as Sumo. 1.8 also has diverse modes of PvP reaching from Nodebuff to UHC to Combo to Boxing to, you get the point. It requires diverse skills but that doesnt mean 1.9 doesnt, it actually requires more. In 1.9 one does not have the freedom to spam hit as it deals less damage to your opponent rather you use the available tools alloted to you and smack that opponents ASS fr. For example, you can use Axes to disable shields or use Shields to take less damage from opponent, you can also use cobwebs to trap your opponent. 1.9 pvp is a more mental and intellectual way of PvPing over 1.8 where you can snooze of and still PvP as all those skills are basically muscle memory, im not saying 1.9 isnt, its just you have to adapt more constantly to different opponents and use intellect to outsmart them. 1.9 also boasts variety of gamemodes such as CrystalPvP.
By the way, my favourite is 1.8 but the best without a doubt is 1.9!
So in the end, it all depends on what style you wanna tackle with, 1.9 or 1.8
For Dummies who have small attention spans
1.8 = more muscle memory oriented, more gamemodes, less skill needed
1.9 = while not as many gamemodes, it demands adaptation to different situations and requires a better skillset
I like the current combat better, but I'm answering as a PVE player only (since the thread is asking about PVP).
I'm still not sure if I think totems of the undying ever warranted addition though due to how broken they are, even if shields are pretty broken and my preferred "defensive" offhand of the two. I think the shield needs nerfs, and to compensate, the creeper's explosion blast damage needs to be made more "smooth" for lack of better words. Basically, it does too much damage if it's on top of you, and not enough if it's not. Extend the range, but nerf the maximum damage, and then I think this allows you to nerf shields. It's a bit boring how you can tank like three back to back to back creepers (with good armor and if they're close but not directly on top of you) and it just doesn't even phase you, even if a couple of them aren't blocked with a shield. But I do find the combat better as it's more effort and interactive now rather than just tanking it with older, stronger armor or using a sword to block, and spamming attacks with no cooldown. PVE is now infinitely more fun, if slower, in my opinion.
I personally think what the 1.9 was going for better even for PVP in theory, but "in theory" is the key word. In reality, the changes they made were pretty big and came so "late" in the game's life that I wouldn't blame any PVP players that rejected the changes because they were already familiar with prior mechanics. There were a lot of servers, mini-games, and established PVP metas at the time. This isn't too say it's too late to try changing it again (since I recall they were testing doing so at one point?) but I think there's definitely some truth to certain decisions being something you sort of have to make way early in a game's development life, and it becomes harder for the player base to accept changes to it if it comes later.
Just want to get everyone's opinions on this matter.
Modern, I with great nostalgia remember being able to block with swords and it was awesome, but shields are better. Skeletons aren't unbeleivably scary and a creeper's hiss doesn't instantly result in loss of 2 hoursworth of mining. Shields are cool.
Armor was WAY stronger before 1.9 though; a creeper explodes in my face? No problem, only a few hearts lost. Not since 1.9 though, and shields must be used and aimed at an attacker in order to be effective (I rarely block with a sword, just depend on good armor to tank anything). You also have a better chance of killing them before they explode, especially when there are multiple creepers (damage against a single target is only slightly higher, from 1.6 to 2 attacks per second, but multiple targets scale, you just need to be able to retarget each one fast enough and I can do so to often have 2-3 mobs at once flying about or dying from being hit).
That's why my own alternate development path mod (since 1.6.4) features a proper "anti-spam-click" penalty system - you have unlimited attack speed / DPS as long as you can accurately retarget multiple opponents (Knockback works very well here), you only get penalized (reduced damage) if you miss too often (once per second or more) or attack a target that is immune from your previous attack (and even then since a max Sharpness V sword deals 14.25 damage, instead of 11, you have a buffer before it drops below the 2 hits/kill point). Even this very lenient system is still too much for some players e.g. somebody streamed their attempt at playing on Hardcore, with multiple deaths before they decided the mod was impossibly difficult (at one point they called it the "worst alternative timeline of Minecraft"), even though they only fought a few mobs at any one time (the last death in particular simply shouldn't have happened, do they not know how to fight endermen? A 2 block high ceiling works wonders):
I also nerfed armor and weapons but only for players; diamond has the protection of iron, which is in turn like chainmail, etc (leather is the same as before as it is already very weak), while creepers deal less damage to offset this (thus for the same damage inflected by creepers after armor you'll take more damage from other sources; in order to get the best armor and weapons you need to make "amethyst" items (no relation at all to the item in modern versions, I added all this a decade ago), which is much rarer than diamond, similar to ancient debris/netherite (there is about 0.4 amethyst ore vs 1.6 ancient debris (0.4 netherite ingots) per chunk, though you only need one ingot to upgrade items while amethyst works like other materials, 1-8 per item).
I also added armor penetration but only for axes, as my way of making them more specialized than just a slightly inferior sword (as they still do the old damage, 1 less than a sword of the same tier); simply making it apply to all sources of non-magic damage (which already weren't reduced by armor) is just really cheap, making creepers unbelievably overpowered - in fact, if you look at older articles in the Wiki you'll see that they used to deal more damage (49 instead of the current 43), which was changed so you can just barely survive a point-blank hit in full Protection IV diamond armor on Hard (prior to 1.9 unenchanted diamond armor was better, still leaving you at only 2 1/2 hearts).
Even better, I added a gamerule so you can disable the attack penalty, something which Mojang refuses to do despite continued complaints to this day, and oddly enough, Bedrock Edition (the most popular edition by far) still doesn't have an attack cooldown (it does have shields and other mechanics. I've heard this is due to limitations of controllers for consoles but PC players can use the same controls as Java).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Honestly I think modern PVPs better. It just makes more sense to me that there are cooldowns and stuff like every other game. I do understand though why people are mad at the update because they already had a good PVP system (and also the stone axe thing lol). But it's been like 8 years, so i think we already had time to understand it.
I'm curious though, what about PvE? How do you handle stuff like this? Even my system* (or the old one, which only differ in what happens if you miss too much or attack a mob while it is red from a previous player attack, unless you can deal more damage) can be overwhelmed by the sheer number of mobs I've encountered at once, killing as many as a thousand in a single day while exploring a single large cave:
(even as I stopped playing at this point you can see there is a big crowd of mobs around me)
*The video I previously posted also shows the effect of my anti-spam-click penalty when you abuse it as if you are playing vanilla 1.6.4 (they hadn't read up on anything about the mod and just assumed it worked like 1.6.4), one thing you may notice is how quickly their swords broke, since prior to 1.7 weapons lost durability on every attack, not just ones that actually inflicted damage (I disagree with the resolution of this as a bug that needed to be fixed; after all, bows lose durability every time you fire them, whether or not the arrow inflicts damage):
*I often switch items so fast that it bugs out because the game doesn't update the player's attributes, like attack damage, until the following tick, leading to erroneous damage values (such as a diamond sword dealing the damage of a fist, or a piece of food dealing the damage of a diamond sword; enchantments are still applied correctly):
https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-java-edition/survival-mode/297957-what-have-you-done-recently?comment=7633
MC-28289 Switching items at the same time as attacking ignores the item attributes
(still unresolved?! Maybe not as important since 1.9 due to the initial cooldown but it should still be fixed)
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
In my consensus. I think Modern PVP and 1.8 PVP both require skills in specific areas of the ART of PVP. For Example, In 1.8 due to the absence of a Delay in hitting, you can easily click fast to defeat your opponent. But 1.8 also requires one to have strafing skills so your opponent doesnt combo you to oblivion! it is very easy to get comboed while doing a combo in 1.8. It also significantly requires skills such as W tapping which is a loophole in minecraft to deal more knockback to your opponent, especially useful in gamemodes such as Sumo. 1.8 also has diverse modes of PvP reaching from Nodebuff to UHC to Combo to Boxing to, you get the point. It requires diverse skills but that doesnt mean 1.9 doesnt, it actually requires more. In 1.9 one does not have the freedom to spam hit as it deals less damage to your opponent rather you use the available tools alloted to you and smack that opponents ASS fr. For example, you can use Axes to disable shields or use Shields to take less damage from opponent, you can also use cobwebs to trap your opponent. 1.9 pvp is a more mental and intellectual way of PvPing over 1.8 where you can snooze of and still PvP as all those skills are basically muscle memory, im not saying 1.9 isnt, its just you have to adapt more constantly to different opponents and use intellect to outsmart them. 1.9 also boasts variety of gamemodes such as CrystalPvP.
By the way, my favourite is 1.8 but the best without a doubt is 1.9!
So in the end, it all depends on what style you wanna tackle with, 1.9 or 1.8
For Dummies who have small attention spans
1.8 = more muscle memory oriented, more gamemodes, less skill needed
1.9 = while not as many gamemodes, it demands adaptation to different situations and requires a better skillset
I like the current combat better, but I'm answering as a PVE player only (since the thread is asking about PVP).
I'm still not sure if I think totems of the undying ever warranted addition though due to how broken they are, even if shields are pretty broken and my preferred "defensive" offhand of the two. I think the shield needs nerfs, and to compensate, the creeper's explosion blast damage needs to be made more "smooth" for lack of better words. Basically, it does too much damage if it's on top of you, and not enough if it's not. Extend the range, but nerf the maximum damage, and then I think this allows you to nerf shields. It's a bit boring how you can tank like three back to back to back creepers (with good armor and if they're close but not directly on top of you) and it just doesn't even phase you, even if a couple of them aren't blocked with a shield. But I do find the combat better as it's more effort and interactive now rather than just tanking it with older, stronger armor or using a sword to block, and spamming attacks with no cooldown. PVE is now infinitely more fun, if slower, in my opinion.
I personally think what the 1.9 was going for better even for PVP in theory, but "in theory" is the key word. In reality, the changes they made were pretty big and came so "late" in the game's life that I wouldn't blame any PVP players that rejected the changes because they were already familiar with prior mechanics. There were a lot of servers, mini-games, and established PVP metas at the time. This isn't too say it's too late to try changing it again (since I recall they were testing doing so at one point?) but I think there's definitely some truth to certain decisions being something you sort of have to make way early in a game's development life, and it becomes harder for the player base to accept changes to it if it comes later.
prob modern cus cooldowns make sense and mobs are easier
I can't spam click. New for me.