The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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Quote from FLYGUY1
There is one thing that I have
not seen mentioned on this thread. That is the fact the Mojang doesn't
officially support mods (at least last time I checked). If they break a
mod due to an update to the game? They have always made it clear that it
isn't their problem and they will not deal with it; it is up to the
modder to deal with the game as is changes. Unless I just haven't
received the memo saying they are actively working to support mods, this
hasn't changed.
Now don't get me wrong, I think mods are simply
fantastic. Honestly my opinion is that it's amazing this game has ever
had such a strong modding community in the first place. The OP compared
the modding community to the likes of Bethesda; and wasn't exactly wrong
to do so. One key difference between the two and how mods are handled
though is the fact that Bethesda does actively support modding (I'm sure
I don't need to talk about how exactly they do, but I can).
Its not about weather mods are support or not it’s that for all intents and
purposes Minecraft is finished and doesn’t need to have its code
rewritten again and again unless you’re making a sequel.
Quote from Geneo
For instance, people love their "shaders" mod. But Mojang can't add that to the vanilla game because some modder(s) has already done it and has the "rights" to it. I bet a vast majority of the things Mojang would love to add to the game is off the table cause some modder has already done it. In essence, I think mods has tied Mojang's hands, and they're left with "little improvements".
OR mods have made Mojang lazy. "Don't worry, it'll be modded...."
what? no mods don't work like that let me see the legal documentation. also Mojang has access to Microsoft lawyers now meaning they can do whatever they please (because the sad truth is that corporations are above the law).
I'm not saying that Mojang should stop updates because of mods but because Minecraft is an old game now and its time to move on and in its old age mods will keep it alive. look at start wars how much grief would Lucas have avoided if he just left well enough alone. granted he made the mistake of also trying to eras the original cuts from existence and i do have to give credit to Mojang for keeping all the old versions available. this does not mean that things shouldn't be improved upon just that you shouldn't tear down the whole house again and again for all eternity.
look at fallout 4 its getting an update soon 1.9 i think and some mods (but not all) might get broken and that is just fine because fallout 4 is only a little over a year old and the devs will eventually move on just not yet. but Minecraft it feels like it been updating forever at first it was no problem at all in fact i even looked forward to it. but now things have gone in the opposite direction and the updates are more trouble then what there worth given all the mods. Face it the game is done development is over time for MC2 or batter yet a whole new IP(think of mods like a retirement home for old games).
I'm not saying that Mojang should stop updates because of mods but because Minecraft is an old game now and its time to move on and in its old age mods will keep it alive. look at start wars how much grief would Lucas have avoided if he just left well enough alone. granted he made the mistake of also trying to eras the original cuts from existence and i do have to give credit to Mojang for keeping all the old versions available. this does not mean that things shouldn't be improved upon just that you shouldn't tear down the whole house again and again for all eternity.
So age to you is the only reason determining whether a game should update or not? Just because a game is old doesn't mean it should stop updating. I mean, look at World of Warcraft. That game is many many years older than Minecraft, and yet it still receives updates and is considered a very well polished game.
Comparing Minecraft modding to fallout is quite different because updates in Minecraft don't suddenly cause every mod in the world to be irrelevant. That's probably the biggest thing about Modding in MInecraft. You can still use your mods for all of eternity, just stick with one version, or use the profile feature to use multiple versions.
I'm also not seeing how houses are being destroyed and rebuilt with every update. Barring the attempt to improve the code in 1.8 (Which still wasn't destroying houses, more like redesigning the kitchen), all updates pretty much just adds content as opposed to rewriting anything really.
And yeah, of course you can say "Well look at the newer star wars/minecraft/whatever, it's so bad compared to the older versions!" but that's not really a good argument. I enjoy the new star wars, I love the new minecraft, I think they're amazing. But that's just my opinion, and people thinking the newer content is bad is also their opinion.
For instance, people love their "shaders" mod. But Mojang can't add that to the vanilla game because some modder(s) has already done it and has the "rights" to it. I bet a vast majority of the things Mojang would love to add to the game is off the table cause some modder has already done it. In essence, I think mods has tied Mojang's hands, and they're left with "little improvements".
OR mods have made Mojang lazy. "Don't worry, it'll be modded...."
That hasn't stopped Mojang from adding at least half of the features Optifine originally added - despite a failed deal with its creator.
Don't believe me? Vsync, brightness, mipmaps, multithreaded chunk loading (albeit the only option and not always better), occlusion culling (Advanced OpenGL, superseded in 1.8 by their own non-GPU specific algorithm), fine-tuning render distance in chunks instead of just a few settings, "natural textures" (randomly rotated blocks like grass and stone), and more. They even added rudimentary shaders to the game in 1.7 (you still need a shaders mod to get the sort that gives you all of those fancy effects but they are shaders, as opposed to hard-coded OpenGL calls; actually, even many of those calls use shaders internally because of how GPUs work).
It doesn't matter if they "copy" something a modder did as long as they do not simply copy+paste the exact code, sort of like how I added igloos and fossils to a 1.6.4 mod not by using their NBT structure files and related code (I've never even downloaded MCP for any version past 1.8) but by writing code to place each block (this is how they made older structures like villages; I would not even dare try adding something like mansions this way) based on schematics I found on the Wiki; likewise, my code for bone blocks was entirely self-written based on information from the Wiki.
It's already optional, though, and implemented in a better way than a gamerule, if slightly more complex to set up. By slightly more I mean you can go to mcstacker and generate a command that gives you a no cooldown sword.
Or I guess high levels of haste works.
But I mean, it's a core part of the game, and adding toggles just to satisfy a small bit of the community.... You kind of have to stand your ground somewhere. It's a core mechanic and it'd be like adding a toggle for lighting... Really sort of out of place and useless. It'd be better adding commands that can control the lighting of any block space. (As if you were able to place customizable invisible torches anywhere).
I get people want to be lazy and just type "/gamerule nocooldown ye" but you really just have to think, the way it's optional now allows for more customization on everyone's behalf. Maybe you only want diamond swords to be faster, maybe you want them to be slower, and have all other swords be faster. Perhaps you want axes to deal double damage but take double time to recharge.
Considering the amount of people still complaining, though, I would think that it would be worth it to take an extra step and make it a gamerule. However, the main thing I just wanted to point out was that I don't think staying on an old version fixes any problems. If Minecraft is a game that is all about changing over time, then we need to be looking forward. Mojang should want people to stay on the latest version and not use the excuse that players can go back to an older version to allow them to put whatever they want in the game.
For instance, people love their "shaders" mod. But Mojang can't add that to the vanilla game because some modder(s) has already done it and has the "rights" to it. I bet a vast majority of the things Mojang would love to add to the game is off the table cause some modder has already done it. In essence, I think mods has tied Mojang's hands, and they're left with "little improvements".
OR mods have made Mojang lazy. "Don't worry, it'll be modded...."
That's.... not how it works. At all. Mojang can implement whatever content it wants, even if there is already a popular mod for it. The reason you don't see fancy shaders in MC is because:
1) A very substantial part of the community would be unable to run the game with a decent FPS rate if something like Sonic Ether's shaders got implemented.
2) It would probably be a very controversial game design decision. MC's current graphics are iconic, and making such a profound artistic change to the game would inevitably upset a lot of people.
Reason number 2. is also generally why Mojang isn't adding a lot of features you see in mods. The game's basic structure has been set in stone for over 5 years. Sure, a huge amount of content has been added in those 5 years, but all of that content was built within a framework that persists to this day, and which hasn't been changed truly profoundly since Beta 1.8. Suddenly making large-scale changes to the structure of the game would likely not sit well with all players. I mean, look at how much flak the new combat system gets, not even because it's bad(at least in my experience - almost anything is better than the pre-1.8 click-spamming) but just because it changed something a lot of people didn't want to change. And the combat change wasn't even that profound - now imagine if some truly huge changes were made, such as adding magical spells or IC-style industrial development. As I said, a lot of people would not be pleased, claiming that it's not in the "true" spirit of MC.
That's also the reason that mods are so vital for the game. They make the game incredibly flexible, and each and every player can shape the game to their "ideal" vision of it. Some players will want a fantasy-themed game with magic and an exclusively pre-industrial atmosphere while others will want to build huge electronics factories and explore space. It is impossible for the base game to cater to both groups at the same time, so such a thing is left to the modders to solve.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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Quote from DrWeegee
So age to you is the only reason determining whether a game should update or not? Just because a game is old doesn't mean it should stop updating. I mean, look at World of Warcraft. That game is many many years older than Minecraft, and yet it still receives updates and is considered a very well polished game.
Well yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. As for Warcraft that’s an mmo you can’t compare the two and its not like WoW doesn’t have its own problems they too need to move on and just make WoW 2 or World of Starcraft clearly the fans want that as I remember a mod for Starcraft 2 that was shut down for calling itself World of Starcraft.
As for the house thing it’s called a metaphor the house being the architecture of the games code.
Quote from DrWeegee
Comparing Minecraft modding to fallout is quite different because
updates in Minecraft don't suddenly cause every mod in the world to be
irrelevant. That's probably the biggest thing about Modding in
MInecraft. You can still use your mods for all of eternity, just stick
with one version, or use the profile feature to use multiple versions.
what are you talking about fallout updates don't make all mods irrelevant that's what Minecarft does because the updates brakes them the mod authors get board of updating and move on.
Quote from DrWeegee
And yeah, of course you can say "Well look at the newer star
wars/minecraft/whatever, it's so bad compared to the older versions!"
but that's not really a good argument. I enjoy the new star wars, I love
the new minecraft, I think they're amazing. But that's just my opinion,
and people thinking the newer content is bad is also their opinion.
hear that its sound of a heard of rampaging star wars fans about to rip you to shreds. I'm kidding I'm kidding in fact i actually like the prequel trilogy if you can believe that. but i don't see how its a bad argument.
Considering the amount of people still complaining, though, I would think that it would be worth it to take an extra step and make it a gamerule. However, the main thing I just wanted to point out was that I don't think staying on an old version fixes any problems. If Minecraft is a game that is all about changing over time, then we need to be looking forward. Mojang should want people to stay on the latest version and not use the excuse that players can go back to an older version to allow them to put whatever they want in the game.
I don't see the issue of people staying on older versions. Mojang does try their best to make updates so people want to stay on the latest version while all keeping the game to its roots. If someone decides they want to go down and play modded 1.7.10, then that's fine. The modders are happy, the player is happy, and mojang is happy. It's basically a win-win. I mean, yeah, sure the player may want this or that feature, but either that's modded to be backported or the player decides they much rather have all this modded content instead of the 1-2 items in the latest update that interests them.
You also have to understand Mojang can't really compete with modded. If you're a modder you can add literally anything you ever dreamed of. Robot cats that poop rainbow lasers? Yes! Technical mods to promote super high tech automation? Yes! Books that summon giant flying ghosts that delete the world if they kill you? Totally! But none of those things are Minecraft, and since official updates affect everyone, they have to keep the game feeling like vanilla. So while Mojang can try all they want to catch the eye of modded players, they can't really appeal to those who just want lucky blocks or flying pigsheepkittens. Which is totally fine. The player might miss out on a bit of content, but the player is happy.
There really isn't anything bad about it. As for Mojang putting whatever they want, yeah there's always ganna be a small lot that disagrees with this or that item, and with over potentially 25 million players, that's to be expected. But Mojang doesn't just wrecklessly adds things, though. Like I said, they always try to keep the vanilla feel of the game because they just kind of have to. The combat was purely because the majority picked "Hey spamclicking sucks", likewise many updates are determined and shaped by the community. Mojang sometimes even goes back on their stuff.
One of the snapshots introduced armor protecting less when its durability lowered, and well noone really liked that. So they removed it. Just to give a recent-ish example.
Right now the only complaints mostly are out from the PvP community. Putting a gamerule doesn't really fix much though. If the mechanics were truly too bad, then the update should be changed to make them better or removed entirely. But as of now the majority sees the mechanics as fine, and most PvPers are complaining purely from mis-information (You have to wait 20 seconds to attack now >:(, Fights are not just whoever has more food :((( You now can only hug monsters theres no more PvP! <3 ) or simply because it's different.
Of course some people just don't like it because they just don't, but those people go into the category of "Small amount of people lost every update" since it's not much different from hating hunger, wool, creepers, whatever.
Well yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. As for Warcraft that’s an mmo you can’t compare the two and its not like WoW doesn’t have its own problems they too need to move on and just make WoW 2 or World of Starcraft clearly the fans want that as I remember a mod for Starcraft 2 that was shut down for calling itself World of Starcraft.
As for the house thing it’s called a metaphor the house being the architecture of the games code.
what are you talking about fallout updates don't make all mods irrelevant that's what Minecarft does because the updates brakes them the mod authors get board of updating and move on.
hear that its sound of a heard of rampaging star wars fans about to rip you to shreds. I'm kidding I'm kidding in fact i actually like the prequel trilogy if you can believe that. but i don't see how its a bad argument.
Every game after a long path of updates (And even short to no future updates) are bound to get hate. They're generally the minority who are filled with nostalgia and/or just don't like the updates. You can't stop just because a few hate it. There's always a time to stop, but if the devs are willing to push out unique updates and those updates are generally agreed to be great, it's not that time. No matter how old the game is.
The housing metaphor I understood and went along with so I could easily explain how I saw things.
And fallout, you said specifically that the planned update more than likely will kill mods. The difference is you and literally every mod maker is forced to follow through on that update, whether you like the content of it or not, and the modders themselves are forced to choose between giving up on their mods or updating. But Minecraft modders are unharmed since they can freely add updates to earlier versions of the game and players can always play said versions.
And its a bad argument because it doesnt really have a stance. It's all just opinions. You don't like the newer content, but I love it. Who's wrong here? Well it's neither of us.
I don't see the issue of people staying on older versions. Mojang does try their best to make updates so people want to stay on the latest version while all keeping the game to its roots. If someone decides they want to go down and play modded 1.7.10, then that's fine. The modders are happy, the player is happy, and mojang is happy. It's basically a win-win. I mean, yeah, sure the player may want this or that feature, but either that's modded to be backported or the player decides they much rather have all this modded content instead of the 1-2 items in the latest update that interests them.
You also have to understand Mojang can't really compete with modded. If you're a modder you can add literally anything you ever dreamed of. Robot cats that poop rainbow lasers? Yes! Technical mods to promote super high tech automation? Yes! Books that summon giant flying ghosts that delete the world if they kill you? Totally! But none of those things are Minecraft, and since official updates affect everyone, they have to keep the game feeling like vanilla. So while Mojang can try all they want to catch the eye of modded players, they can't really appeal to those who just want lucky blocks or flying pigsheepkittens. Which is totally fine. The player might miss out on a bit of content, but the player is happy.
There really isn't anything bad about it. As for Mojang putting whatever they want, yeah there's always ganna be a small lot that disagrees with this or that item, and with over potentially 25 million players, that's to be expected. But Mojang doesn't just wrecklessly adds things, though. Like I said, they always try to keep the vanilla feel of the game because they just kind of have to. The combat was purely because the majority picked "Hey spamclicking sucks", likewise many updates are determined and shaped by the community. Mojang sometimes even goes back on their stuff.
One of the snapshots introduced armor protecting less when its durability lowered, and well noone really liked that. So they removed it. Just to give a recent-ish example.
Right now the only complaints mostly are out from the PvP community. Putting a gamerule doesn't really fix much though. If the mechanics were truly too bad, then the update should be changed to make them better or removed entirely. But as of now the majority sees the mechanics as fine, and most PvPers are complaining purely from mis-information (You have to wait 20 seconds to attack now >:(, Fights are not just whoever has more food :((( You now can only hug monsters theres no more PvP! <3 ) or simply because it's different.
Of course some people just don't like it because they just don't, but those people go into the category of "Small amount of people lost every update" since it's not much different from hating hunger, wool, creepers, whatever
My main point here isn't about mods or recently added features, it's about rebutting the argument I keep seeing here about using an older version of the game to fix your problems, when in reality it doesn't fix anything. You agreed to my extreme example in which it would be a poor argument, but it still applies to the much less severe version that we have now; it's just more tolerable because a large portion of the player base still finds it fun. Besides, the community is expected to be on the latest version. You don't see many people making mods or servers for older versions, and apparently it seems even Mojang doesn't care about supporting older versions in the new launcher. Even if the game is ruined for you, there's an unspoken pressure on you to be on the current version/patch, which is the same as every other piece of software out there.
This is one of the reasons why I think there should be a Minecraft 2: the game you like will no longer be "ruined," but if you want you can get some cool new features in a completely different game. There's a line that must be drawn as to the limits of what you can add to a game, but a sequel doesn't have to have the line at the same location. I don't think we would see so much backlash if, say, the 1.9 combat had been implemented in a sequel. It's a different game, so it's expected to be different. Updates should add new content to the game and tweak the balancing of existing features. They shouldn't completely change long-established features of the game.
My main point here isn't about mods or recently added features, it's about rebutting the argument I keep seeing here about using an older version of the game to fix your problems, when in reality it doesn't fix anything. You agreed to my extreme example in which it would be a poor argument, but it still applies to the much less severe version that we have now; it's just more tolerable because a large portion of the player base still finds it fun. Besides, the community is expected to be on the latest version. You don't see many people making mods or servers for older versions, and apparently it seems even Mojang doesn't care about supporting older versions in the new launcher. Even if the game is ruined for you, there's an unspoken pressure on you to be on the current version/patch, which is the same as every other piece of software out there.
This is one of the reasons why I think there should be a Minecraft 2: the game you like will no longer be "ruined," but if you want you can get some cool new features in a completely different game. There's a line that must be drawn as to the limits of what you can add to a game, but a sequel doesn't have to have the line at the same location. I don't think we would see so much backlash if, say, the 1.9 combat had been implemented in a sequel. It's a different game, so it's expected to be different. Updates should add new content to the game and tweak the balancing of existing features. They shouldn't completely change long-established features of the game.
I feel that if everyone is happy (Or at least the majority), there really isn't an issue, but I can see how that's not exactly the best thing to say, there's tons of examples you could bring of and that I can think of that kind of proves that wrong, but in this scenario, at least, shouldn't too much of an issue.
A Minecraft 2.. I feel it kind of is like we're getting a sequel with every update, major ones at least. 1.11.2 really feels more like Minecraft 11.2, kind of like the sports series such as Fifa or whatever. Not too much is different, but the difference is there. And yeah maybe changing combat should of happened... Like 6 years ago, but it's change. Can't really update expecting things to not be different, and I do see the issues with updating, it breaks many things with new mechanics and such.
That kind of does semi-split the community, and a 2.0 really wouldn't fix that, though. Aside from the obvious split of 1.x/2.0, what's to say 2.0 doesn't stop updating? You'd basically just be reselling the game with more features as opposed to... Well adding more features.
If anything, a 2.0 should really just be the final version of the game (Aside from some last time bug fixes) as opposed to a whole new game. That way everyone can finally settle on one version and there's no worries of... Well anything really. But I feel that time is far from now.
Maybe if we did get a true 2.0 standalone, we could get a binding of isaac type dealio with booster packs adding optional content to the game, basically it'd work sort of like mods, but for updates. You'd start off with a simple base update, say 1.8, and you add a little booster packs tab filled with content, put 1.9 in there and call it "Combat booster" or whatever. That way the devs can still update the game (With no limits), but players aren't forced to pick versions, say you want 1.12 content but despise 1.9 content, well hey just enable the "1.12 name to be determined booster" and leave the 1.9 one off. Servers could pick and choose and you'd get the content picked by the server and mods can stick on one base version and don't (Or at least shouldn't) break.
Change is only good when, well, the change is good. Would it be cool for the game to be changed into an unplayable mess? No, no it would not.
However, I'm not against change in and of itself. I just think it's too dangerous for Mojang to keep changing current Minecraft as much as they have. A lot of people like it, sure, but there is still a lot of alienation going along with it. As I've stated, I think a Minecraft 2 is the best decision. I believe that even more people would be happy with that, provided it was executed well.
Change is only good when, well, the change is good. Would it be cool for the game to be changed into an unplayable mess? No, no it would not.
However, I'm not against change in and of itself. I just think it's too dangerous for Mojang to keep changing current Minecraft as much as they have. A lot of people like it, sure, but there is still a lot of alienation going along with it. As I've stated, I think a Minecraft 2 is the best decision. I believe that even more people would be happy with that, provided it was executed well.
They have no idea what they're missing out on, or how good MC could be.
Now, I am NOT "resisting" an MC2. Do not take this that way. I am simply trying to understand this logic. Why do you think MC2 will satisfy everyone and that it will suit everyone's tastes? If they do it, people will probably be modding the "snapshots" (or dev builds or whatever they'll call them). I really don't quite understand how MC2 will fix all of our problems. The way I see it, more people will be unsatisfied with MC2 than with the current MC version. It is like @jdc997 said about an older version not fixing all of our problems- will a new version fix all of our problems? Probably not. MC2 will probably be more along the lines of the current version than whatever you guys are hoping for. Now, I am not antagonistic, but open to the idea of a MC2, I just want to understand it has so much support
Now, I am NOT "resisting" an MC2. Do not take this that way. I am simply trying to understand this logic. Why do you think MC2 will satisfy everyone and that it will suit everyone's tastes? If they do it, people will probably be modding the "snapshots" (or dev builds or whatever they'll call them). I really don't quite understand how MC2 will fix all of our problems. The way I see it, more people will be unsatisfied with MC2 than with the current MC version. It is like @jdc997 said about an older version not fixing all of our problems- will a new version fix all of our problems? Probably not. MC2 will probably be more along the lines of the current version than whatever you guys are hoping for. Now, I am not antagonistic, but open to the idea of a MC2, I just want to understand it has so much support
Mojang wouldn't win for losing.
"No sense in doing MC2, people wouldn't like it any better than MC anyway".
It's the same ole "I'll change the program myself, don't you dare do it!" If all you people are gonna do is gripe no matter what, then why play?
I actually don't think that MC2 is a good idea, but if you notice closely MCW10 edition is slowly phasing out Java. I think that the best decision is to take Windows 10 Edition where Java edition could not similarly to MC2, but not being a sequel.
Now, I am NOT "resisting" an MC2. Do not take this that way. I am simply trying to understand this logic. Why do you think MC2 will satisfy everyone and that it will suit everyone's tastes? If they do it, people will probably be modding the "snapshots" (or dev builds or whatever they'll call them). I really don't quite understand how MC2 will fix all of our problems. The way I see it, more people will be unsatisfied with MC2 than with the current MC version. It is like @jdc997 said about an older version not fixing all of our problems- will a new version fix all of our problems? Probably not. MC2 will probably be more along the lines of the current version than whatever you guys are hoping for. Now, I am not antagonistic, but open to the idea of a MC2, I just want to understand it has so much support
The thing is, the way I imagine Minecraft 2, it would break the game if it was implemented in just an update;
Due to having to rewrite basically the entire game, Mojang would also have to make some kind of converter program to make old worlds compatible in the new version, as they would be changing from one save format to another. This of course is likely to cause bugs and corruption in the world.
None of the new content would be available within explored chunks, so you'd have to go far to find new stuff.
Several mechanics would be rebalanced for the vast amount of new content, which means that having old Minecraft gear might make you overpowered (or underpowered). Certain enchantments might also be removed and replaced with a different mechanic as well, making your stuff less valuable.
An idea I had in order to make sunlight less of a problem for cubic chunks was to make light a purely visual feature, not having an effect on anything. If this was put in the game, your fortress that you spent all that time building is no longer safe from mobs, so get ready to basically rebuild it to return it to its mob-free state.
Changes in redstone mechanics would render many previous machines broken or obsolete.
Increasing the system requirements would allow for a better game, but now many would need more up-to-date hardware to run the game that they already paid for.
Several of these points would mean that many people would have to use new worlds for the new versions and stay in old versions for their older worlds. If your going to force people to have two sets of worlds, you might as well have two games to make things more convenient for everybody.
I made the decision to go to an earlier version so I could use all the nice mods that all my favorite youtubers are using, and I'm not going to update until each and every mod is updated. That says something about how important mods are to me and I've only been playing for two weeks.
I actually don't think that MC2 is a good idea, but if you notice closely MCW10 edition is slowly phasing out Java. I think that the best decision is to take Windows 10 Edition where Java edition could not similarly to MC2, but not being a sequel.
I said, and people scoffed, that Win10 is, for all intents and purposes, MC2. I firmly believe you all are gonna be surprised a year or two from now. C++ can do things java can't (or at least do the same things so much better). Win10 may not do all the "old" things, but it can do new and different things better.
People, especially in this forum, tend to think the MC-world revolves around the PC edition and it's the most popular.
Nope.
jdc997 went on recounting all the problems with making a new MC2 compatible with the old MC. Why? That hasn't been a problem for Win10, has it? None of the other MC's are compatible with the PC version, but that hasn't stopped their sales, has it? Hopefully, if a MC2 were to come out, it would have so many cool new features and look so much better, "starting over" will be worth it, and "compatibility" won't be a concern.
Due to having to rewrite basically the entire game, Mojang would also have to make some kind of converter program to make old worlds compatible in the new version, as they would be changing from one save format to another. This of course is likely to cause bugs and corruption in the world.
This is not really much of an issue as long as they do not remove anything; it is even possible to write a converter for PC <-> Windows 10/PE (some people claim this is impossible because one is Java and the other is C++ but the actual data stored on disk has nothing to do with programming language); for example, in the PC version the new types of fences they added in 1.8 were each given their own block ID while in PE they are data values of the original fence block, which is the same in both versions (I have no idea why they added new blocks in the PC version; I know that from MCEdit that the game does not save any metadata for fences; it determines their visual appearance when they are rendered based on what blocks are next to them).
In fact, 1.8 automatically converts numerical item IDs into strings when you load an older world; versions up to at least 1.6.4 had a built-in MCRegion to Anvil converter (all Anvil did was split up chunks into chunk sections and add a biome array), which also made a copy of the save files (MCRegion used .mcr and Anvil uses .mca for its region files; a backup of level.dat is saved to level.dat_mcr. The game even seems to "convert" newly created worlds in these versions since a level.dat_mcr file gets created; 1.11.2 does not create one) so you could easily revert back if there were any issues (what 1.8 does is not good practice; chunks are converted as they are loaded and saved to the same files so you must make a manual backup if you want to revert back).
The main changes that I see in a new version (or update) are to extend the range of metadata and light levels; for example, if you want colored lighting you'd need at least 12 bits to store separate RGB values (it would probably be best to use 16 bits and ignore the uppermost 4 bits; the slight increase in memory would be offset by not having to manipulate half-bytes/nibbles, which are not a native data type in most languages. When stored on disk compression would reduce the impact further. likewise, it would be better to use a 16 bit value to store block IDs instead of clobbering together 8+4 bits, the latter of which again requires extra code to manipulate half-bytes). It would be trivial to convert older worlds in both cases; set the new RGB light value to (old + old * 16 + old * 256), which would appear as shades of white, and for block IDs combine the 8+4 bit values into one (LSB + MSB * 256, which is what the game already does whenever it needs to access a block ID from the in-memory arrays).
Even Cubic Chunks would not necessarily cause issues; for older worlds assume that the bottom of the world is y=0 and that there is nothing below (possibly use a setting within level.dat. Or just use y=0 as the minimum y-value for any world and make the maximum value as high as desired; there is no real need for negative coordinates). Changes to terrain generation, especially deeper worlds, would be a bigger issue (for example, my double-height terrain mod vs vanilla) but that has always been an issue in some way and is why such updates are so infrequent (it is possible to make some changes, even add new biomes, without significantly disrupting existing worlds but the solutions are either hard to program or cludgy, like when I added new biomes to a world while I was playing on it by substituting biomes with new ones after they were chosen from the original biome list and even then I had to check that biomes bordering existing chunks were not replaced).
Its not about weather mods are support or not it’s that for all intents and
purposes Minecraft is finished and doesn’t need to have its code
rewritten again and again unless you’re making a sequel.
what? no mods don't work like that let me see the legal documentation. also Mojang has access to Microsoft lawyers now meaning they can do whatever they please (because the sad truth is that corporations are above the law).
I'm not saying that Mojang should stop updates because of mods but because Minecraft is an old game now and its time to move on and in its old age mods will keep it alive. look at start wars how much grief would Lucas have avoided if he just left well enough alone. granted he made the mistake of also trying to eras the original cuts from existence and i do have to give credit to Mojang for keeping all the old versions available. this does not mean that things shouldn't be improved upon just that you shouldn't tear down the whole house again and again for all eternity.
look at fallout 4 its getting an update soon 1.9 i think and some mods (but not all) might get broken and that is just fine because fallout 4 is only a little over a year old and the devs will eventually move on just not yet. but Minecraft it feels like it been updating forever at first it was no problem at all in fact i even looked forward to it. but now things have gone in the opposite direction and the updates are more trouble then what there worth given all the mods. Face it the game is done development is over time for MC2 or batter yet a whole new IP(think of mods like a retirement home for old games).
So age to you is the only reason determining whether a game should update or not? Just because a game is old doesn't mean it should stop updating. I mean, look at World of Warcraft. That game is many many years older than Minecraft, and yet it still receives updates and is considered a very well polished game.
Comparing Minecraft modding to fallout is quite different because updates in Minecraft don't suddenly cause every mod in the world to be irrelevant. That's probably the biggest thing about Modding in MInecraft. You can still use your mods for all of eternity, just stick with one version, or use the profile feature to use multiple versions.
I'm also not seeing how houses are being destroyed and rebuilt with every update. Barring the attempt to improve the code in 1.8 (Which still wasn't destroying houses, more like redesigning the kitchen), all updates pretty much just adds content as opposed to rewriting anything really.
And yeah, of course you can say "Well look at the newer star wars/minecraft/whatever, it's so bad compared to the older versions!" but that's not really a good argument. I enjoy the new star wars, I love the new minecraft, I think they're amazing. But that's just my opinion, and people thinking the newer content is bad is also their opinion.
That hasn't stopped Mojang from adding at least half of the features Optifine originally added - despite a failed deal with its creator.
Don't believe me? Vsync, brightness, mipmaps, multithreaded chunk loading (albeit the only option and not always better), occlusion culling (Advanced OpenGL, superseded in 1.8 by their own non-GPU specific algorithm), fine-tuning render distance in chunks instead of just a few settings, "natural textures" (randomly rotated blocks like grass and stone), and more. They even added rudimentary shaders to the game in 1.7 (you still need a shaders mod to get the sort that gives you all of those fancy effects but they are shaders, as opposed to hard-coded OpenGL calls; actually, even many of those calls use shaders internally because of how GPUs work).
It doesn't matter if they "copy" something a modder did as long as they do not simply copy+paste the exact code, sort of like how I added igloos and fossils to a 1.6.4 mod not by using their NBT structure files and related code (I've never even downloaded MCP for any version past 1.8) but by writing code to place each block (this is how they made older structures like villages; I would not even dare try adding something like mansions this way) based on schematics I found on the Wiki; likewise, my code for bone blocks was entirely self-written based on information from the Wiki.
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Considering the amount of people still complaining, though, I would think that it would be worth it to take an extra step and make it a gamerule. However, the main thing I just wanted to point out was that I don't think staying on an old version fixes any problems. If Minecraft is a game that is all about changing over time, then we need to be looking forward. Mojang should want people to stay on the latest version and not use the excuse that players can go back to an older version to allow them to put whatever they want in the game.
Want to see my suggestions? Here they are!
I am also known as GameWyrm or GameWyrm97. You can also find me at snapshotmc.com
That's.... not how it works. At all. Mojang can implement whatever content it wants, even if there is already a popular mod for it. The reason you don't see fancy shaders in MC is because:
1) A very substantial part of the community would be unable to run the game with a decent FPS rate if something like Sonic Ether's shaders got implemented.
2) It would probably be a very controversial game design decision. MC's current graphics are iconic, and making such a profound artistic change to the game would inevitably upset a lot of people.
Reason number 2. is also generally why Mojang isn't adding a lot of features you see in mods. The game's basic structure has been set in stone for over 5 years. Sure, a huge amount of content has been added in those 5 years, but all of that content was built within a framework that persists to this day, and which hasn't been changed truly profoundly since Beta 1.8. Suddenly making large-scale changes to the structure of the game would likely not sit well with all players. I mean, look at how much flak the new combat system gets, not even because it's bad(at least in my experience - almost anything is better than the pre-1.8 click-spamming) but just because it changed something a lot of people didn't want to change. And the combat change wasn't even that profound - now imagine if some truly huge changes were made, such as adding magical spells or IC-style industrial development. As I said, a lot of people would not be pleased, claiming that it's not in the "true" spirit of MC.
That's also the reason that mods are so vital for the game. They make the game incredibly flexible, and each and every player can shape the game to their "ideal" vision of it. Some players will want a fantasy-themed game with magic and an exclusively pre-industrial atmosphere while others will want to build huge electronics factories and explore space. It is impossible for the base game to cater to both groups at the same time, so such a thing is left to the modders to solve.
Quote from DrWeegee
Well yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. As for Warcraft that’s an mmo you can’t compare the two and its not like WoW doesn’t have its own problems they too need to move on and just make WoW 2 or World of Starcraft clearly the fans want that as I remember a mod for Starcraft 2 that was shut down for calling itself World of Starcraft.
As for the house thing it’s called a metaphor the house being the architecture of the games code.
what are you talking about fallout updates don't make all mods irrelevant that's what Minecarft does because the updates brakes them the mod authors get board of updating and move on.
hear that its sound of a heard of rampaging star wars fans about to rip you to shreds. I'm kidding I'm kidding in fact i actually like the prequel trilogy if you can believe that. but i don't see how its a bad argument.
I don't see the issue of people staying on older versions. Mojang does try their best to make updates so people want to stay on the latest version while all keeping the game to its roots. If someone decides they want to go down and play modded 1.7.10, then that's fine. The modders are happy, the player is happy, and mojang is happy. It's basically a win-win. I mean, yeah, sure the player may want this or that feature, but either that's modded to be backported or the player decides they much rather have all this modded content instead of the 1-2 items in the latest update that interests them.
You also have to understand Mojang can't really compete with modded. If you're a modder you can add literally anything you ever dreamed of. Robot cats that poop rainbow lasers? Yes! Technical mods to promote super high tech automation? Yes! Books that summon giant flying ghosts that delete the world if they kill you? Totally! But none of those things are Minecraft, and since official updates affect everyone, they have to keep the game feeling like vanilla. So while Mojang can try all they want to catch the eye of modded players, they can't really appeal to those who just want lucky blocks or flying pigsheepkittens. Which is totally fine. The player might miss out on a bit of content, but the player is happy.
There really isn't anything bad about it. As for Mojang putting whatever they want, yeah there's always ganna be a small lot that disagrees with this or that item, and with over potentially 25 million players, that's to be expected. But Mojang doesn't just wrecklessly adds things, though. Like I said, they always try to keep the vanilla feel of the game because they just kind of have to. The combat was purely because the majority picked "Hey spamclicking sucks", likewise many updates are determined and shaped by the community. Mojang sometimes even goes back on their stuff.
One of the snapshots introduced armor protecting less when its durability lowered, and well noone really liked that. So they removed it. Just to give a recent-ish example.
Right now the only complaints mostly are out from the PvP community. Putting a gamerule doesn't really fix much though. If the mechanics were truly too bad, then the update should be changed to make them better or removed entirely. But as of now the majority sees the mechanics as fine, and most PvPers are complaining purely from mis-information (You have to wait 20 seconds to attack now >:(, Fights are not just whoever has more food :((( You now can only hug monsters theres no more PvP! <3 ) or simply because it's different.
Of course some people just don't like it because they just don't, but those people go into the category of "Small amount of people lost every update" since it's not much different from hating hunger, wool, creepers, whatever.
Every game after a long path of updates (And even short to no future updates) are bound to get hate. They're generally the minority who are filled with nostalgia and/or just don't like the updates. You can't stop just because a few hate it. There's always a time to stop, but if the devs are willing to push out unique updates and those updates are generally agreed to be great, it's not that time. No matter how old the game is.
The housing metaphor I understood and went along with so I could easily explain how I saw things.
And fallout, you said specifically that the planned update more than likely will kill mods. The difference is you and literally every mod maker is forced to follow through on that update, whether you like the content of it or not, and the modders themselves are forced to choose between giving up on their mods or updating. But Minecraft modders are unharmed since they can freely add updates to earlier versions of the game and players can always play said versions.
And its a bad argument because it doesnt really have a stance. It's all just opinions. You don't like the newer content, but I love it. Who's wrong here? Well it's neither of us.
My main point here isn't about mods or recently added features, it's about rebutting the argument I keep seeing here about using an older version of the game to fix your problems, when in reality it doesn't fix anything. You agreed to my extreme example in which it would be a poor argument, but it still applies to the much less severe version that we have now; it's just more tolerable because a large portion of the player base still finds it fun. Besides, the community is expected to be on the latest version. You don't see many people making mods or servers for older versions, and apparently it seems even Mojang doesn't care about supporting older versions in the new launcher. Even if the game is ruined for you, there's an unspoken pressure on you to be on the current version/patch, which is the same as every other piece of software out there.
This is one of the reasons why I think there should be a Minecraft 2: the game you like will no longer be "ruined," but if you want you can get some cool new features in a completely different game. There's a line that must be drawn as to the limits of what you can add to a game, but a sequel doesn't have to have the line at the same location. I don't think we would see so much backlash if, say, the 1.9 combat had been implemented in a sequel. It's a different game, so it's expected to be different. Updates should add new content to the game and tweak the balancing of existing features. They shouldn't completely change long-established features of the game.
Want to see my suggestions? Here they are!
I am also known as GameWyrm or GameWyrm97. You can also find me at snapshotmc.com
I feel that if everyone is happy (Or at least the majority), there really isn't an issue, but I can see how that's not exactly the best thing to say, there's tons of examples you could bring of and that I can think of that kind of proves that wrong, but in this scenario, at least, shouldn't too much of an issue.
A Minecraft 2.. I feel it kind of is like we're getting a sequel with every update, major ones at least. 1.11.2 really feels more like Minecraft 11.2, kind of like the sports series such as Fifa or whatever. Not too much is different, but the difference is there. And yeah maybe changing combat should of happened... Like 6 years ago, but it's change. Can't really update expecting things to not be different, and I do see the issues with updating, it breaks many things with new mechanics and such.
That kind of does semi-split the community, and a 2.0 really wouldn't fix that, though. Aside from the obvious split of 1.x/2.0, what's to say 2.0 doesn't stop updating? You'd basically just be reselling the game with more features as opposed to... Well adding more features.
If anything, a 2.0 should really just be the final version of the game (Aside from some last time bug fixes) as opposed to a whole new game. That way everyone can finally settle on one version and there's no worries of... Well anything really. But I feel that time is far from now.
Maybe if we did get a true 2.0 standalone, we could get a binding of isaac type dealio with booster packs adding optional content to the game, basically it'd work sort of like mods, but for updates. You'd start off with a simple base update, say 1.8, and you add a little booster packs tab filled with content, put 1.9 in there and call it "Combat booster" or whatever. That way the devs can still update the game (With no limits), but players aren't forced to pick versions, say you want 1.12 content but despise 1.9 content, well hey just enable the "1.12 name to be determined booster" and leave the 1.9 one off. Servers could pick and choose and you'd get the content picked by the server and mods can stick on one base version and don't (Or at least shouldn't) break.
Change is good. Thank heavens things change.
________
Oyster Boy
Please check out my vanilla Minecraft survival Let's Play on YouTube!
Change is only good when, well, the change is good. Would it be cool for the game to be changed into an unplayable mess? No, no it would not.
However, I'm not against change in and of itself. I just think it's too dangerous for Mojang to keep changing current Minecraft as much as they have. A lot of people like it, sure, but there is still a lot of alienation going along with it. As I've stated, I think a Minecraft 2 is the best decision. I believe that even more people would be happy with that, provided it was executed well.
Want to see my suggestions? Here they are!
I am also known as GameWyrm or GameWyrm97. You can also find me at snapshotmc.com
I feel sorry for the people who resist a MC2.
They have no idea what they're missing out on, or how good MC could be.
Now, I am NOT "resisting" an MC2. Do not take this that way. I am simply trying to understand this logic. Why do you think MC2 will satisfy everyone and that it will suit everyone's tastes? If they do it, people will probably be modding the "snapshots" (or dev builds or whatever they'll call them). I really don't quite understand how MC2 will fix all of our problems. The way I see it, more people will be unsatisfied with MC2 than with the current MC version. It is like @jdc997 said about an older version not fixing all of our problems- will a new version fix all of our problems? Probably not. MC2 will probably be more along the lines of the current version than whatever you guys are hoping for. Now, I am not antagonistic, but open to the idea of a MC2, I just want to understand it has so much support
Mojang wouldn't win for losing.
"No sense in doing MC2, people wouldn't like it any better than MC anyway".
It's the same ole "I'll change the program myself, don't you dare do it!" If all you people are gonna do is gripe no matter what, then why play?
I am NOT griping. I simply want to understand why MC2 would work so well.
I actually don't think that MC2 is a good idea, but if you notice closely MCW10 edition is slowly phasing out Java. I think that the best decision is to take Windows 10 Edition where Java edition could not similarly to MC2, but not being a sequel.
Blue Hedgehog Acceleration
The thing is, the way I imagine Minecraft 2, it would break the game if it was implemented in just an update;
Want to see my suggestions? Here they are!
I am also known as GameWyrm or GameWyrm97. You can also find me at snapshotmc.com
I made the decision to go to an earlier version so I could use all the nice mods that all my favorite youtubers are using, and I'm not going to update until each and every mod is updated. That says something about how important mods are to me and I've only been playing for two weeks.
I said, and people scoffed, that Win10 is, for all intents and purposes, MC2. I firmly believe you all are gonna be surprised a year or two from now. C++ can do things java can't (or at least do the same things so much better). Win10 may not do all the "old" things, but it can do new and different things better.
People, especially in this forum, tend to think the MC-world revolves around the PC edition and it's the most popular.
Nope.
jdc997 went on recounting all the problems with making a new MC2 compatible with the old MC. Why? That hasn't been a problem for Win10, has it? None of the other MC's are compatible with the PC version, but that hasn't stopped their sales, has it? Hopefully, if a MC2 were to come out, it would have so many cool new features and look so much better, "starting over" will be worth it, and "compatibility" won't be a concern.
This is not really much of an issue as long as they do not remove anything; it is even possible to write a converter for PC <-> Windows 10/PE (some people claim this is impossible because one is Java and the other is C++ but the actual data stored on disk has nothing to do with programming language); for example, in the PC version the new types of fences they added in 1.8 were each given their own block ID while in PE they are data values of the original fence block, which is the same in both versions (I have no idea why they added new blocks in the PC version; I know that from MCEdit that the game does not save any metadata for fences; it determines their visual appearance when they are rendered based on what blocks are next to them).
In fact, 1.8 automatically converts numerical item IDs into strings when you load an older world; versions up to at least 1.6.4 had a built-in MCRegion to Anvil converter (all Anvil did was split up chunks into chunk sections and add a biome array), which also made a copy of the save files (MCRegion used .mcr and Anvil uses .mca for its region files; a backup of level.dat is saved to level.dat_mcr. The game even seems to "convert" newly created worlds in these versions since a level.dat_mcr file gets created; 1.11.2 does not create one) so you could easily revert back if there were any issues (what 1.8 does is not good practice; chunks are converted as they are loaded and saved to the same files so you must make a manual backup if you want to revert back).
The main changes that I see in a new version (or update) are to extend the range of metadata and light levels; for example, if you want colored lighting you'd need at least 12 bits to store separate RGB values (it would probably be best to use 16 bits and ignore the uppermost 4 bits; the slight increase in memory would be offset by not having to manipulate half-bytes/nibbles, which are not a native data type in most languages. When stored on disk compression would reduce the impact further. likewise, it would be better to use a 16 bit value to store block IDs instead of clobbering together 8+4 bits, the latter of which again requires extra code to manipulate half-bytes). It would be trivial to convert older worlds in both cases; set the new RGB light value to (old + old * 16 + old * 256), which would appear as shades of white, and for block IDs combine the 8+4 bit values into one (LSB + MSB * 256, which is what the game already does whenever it needs to access a block ID from the in-memory arrays).
Even Cubic Chunks would not necessarily cause issues; for older worlds assume that the bottom of the world is y=0 and that there is nothing below (possibly use a setting within level.dat. Or just use y=0 as the minimum y-value for any world and make the maximum value as high as desired; there is no real need for negative coordinates). Changes to terrain generation, especially deeper worlds, would be a bigger issue (for example, my double-height terrain mod vs vanilla) but that has always been an issue in some way and is why such updates are so infrequent (it is possible to make some changes, even add new biomes, without significantly disrupting existing worlds but the solutions are either hard to program or cludgy, like when I added new biomes to a world while I was playing on it by substituting biomes with new ones after they were chosen from the original biome list and even then I had to check that biomes bordering existing chunks were not replaced).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?