The more I think about it, the more I like a very limited skill persistence, primarily as a reward for not dying. But it really does need to be limited in scope; even someone who's maxed out a persistent bonus for every available skill should still never be better at something than a current specialist, except if the persistent player is currently specialized the same way.
But it must be limited. It should never be possible to become a master at everything simultaneously.
In actual play, I think it will be very rare for people to fully max out in a certain skills, and that's fine. It should still be worthwhile to have, say, 500 points in melee, 200 points in jump and 300 points in sprint, if you're going into battle. You may even be more effective overall than the heavy who tanks up to 1000 points in melee, because you can outmaneuver him and take the high ground, or run around behind to take out his archers. Tactics, formations, use of terrain all become more interesting, and units become more distinct in their capabilities.
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Yes, when I was thinking about persistence, I knew it had to be limited, but not limited enough so that it isn't a worthy reward for not dying. I was thinking the persistence bonus would max out at ~100, which seems fair to me.
Oh dear, I've been a bit absent lately, so many comments. First of all thank you all for the time to post and especially Tom Zhu for challenging me. I was always for the laissez-faire approach, but it seems I got a little worked over such small details (I write my responses at obscene times of the night), you are right it would be fascinating to see players solutions to problems. I'm very happy to see a self sustaining discussion. This approach I believe is plausible.
Just a reiteration, we want to create this experience built on players not modifications to the vanilla experience, the only modifications would serve as a gentle push towards the creation of forms of government. Since single player is so easy the modifications should be somewhat geared to the elimination of the lone wolf and encourage cooperation between players.
The issue of stone tools continues to elude me, however in the grand scheme of things I believe it may be too minor to worry about. I think the only necessary implementations that would be needed: A limited uptime (No one has challenged this yet), a limited customised map with limited and unequally distributed resources and Tom Zhu's refined skill system.
Just some fire to add to the discussion;
Bone meal may find itself defeating any food crisis if left in its state.
Random idea: somehow encourage building with more expensive materials. I've been converting a village into a stone brick castle town, and let me tell you, the amount of wood I go through not only for doors but for charcoal is staggering... I've had to clear cut a decent portion of a nearby jungle just to finish a few buildings.
I've never really had a problem with bonemeal, although I don't use it very often. The thing is, it just adds yet another step and yet another resource. Remember that if we have a crafting delay, and a delay for applying bonemeal, the labour costs will add up. It may be more cost-effective to let the wheat grow naturally, in the long run.
With respect to building with more exotic or expensive materials, that's actually one of the things I sort of had in mind with the skills/delay system: we can adjust the delays for placing various materials. So, for example, cheap and plentiful cobble would have the drawback that it's VERY labour intensive to place: long cooldown per block. Brick or stone brick, on the other hand, fits together quite easily, and should have a relatively brief cooldown in placing.
(Incidentally, I think that smooth stone is likely to be the favoured building material for a lot of projects, owing to the placement delay. Smooth stone will take a long time to place by hand, but if you build a frame and fill it with water, and then let lava pour into it, it's like pouring concrete!)
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I reviewed your skill list and the delay is attributed to each block of its associated skill. A dedicated miner for example, may find it tough to place dirt blocks but will find it easier to place cobble. My main concern is the cool-down may try players patience, how long do you intend the cool-down to last? We are very common with our instantly placed blocks and it may come as a rather rude shock to some. Do placing the blocks associated with a skill also count towards the skill?
The base delay would be a feature of the block type itself, and then there'd be a multiplier based on the skill level of the player. (And yes, placing blocks of a type counts as a use of the skill for the purposes of advancement.)
Each block would have a base delay for mining it (which it already does now, actually) and a separate base delay time for placing it. The placement delay might differ considerably from the mining delay. For example, smooth stone should have a long delay to mine with a pick, while cobble should be relatively easier since it's already broken up and is mostly just chunks wedged in among each other. But a block of smooth stone should place relatively quickly, while cobble takes a long time to put all those little chunks into some kind of stable shape. Stone brick, on the other hand, should be faster to place than either smooth stone or cobble, because it's carefully crafted in advance to go together like Lego. It should also be almost as hard to take apart as smooth stone.
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How long would you believe a cool-down modifier for placing cobblestone at the lowest possible level should last and in contrast how long would it take to place smooth stone?
How long would you believe a cool-down modifier for placing cobblestone at the lowest possible level should last and in contrast how long would it take to place smooth stone?
I don't know. I haven't really thought about what the specific numbers for things are. I've mainly been concerned with the big picture of the system overall. But I think we can look to the delay of mining obsidian with a diamond pick as a hint of what people are prepared to endure to get their hands on something very valuable.
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Oh my, I went on a trip for my church for a week, looks like I missed quite a bit of good discussion here. I'll have to look over it and try to get back into the conversation.
I think the only necessary implementations that would be needed: A limited uptime (No one has challenged this yet), a limited customised map with limited and unequally distributed resources and Tom Zhu's refined skill system.
I think that this is all that is needed to attain the environment from civilisation can form. Even Tom Zhu's skill system is not entirely compulsory for the simulation to play out. Do we wish to move further into the details of the aforementioned alterations or are there any other broad problems that may interrupt the process of government we have not perceived? By this, I mean, can we agree on the points above that are in bold thoroughly?
Wow. I went away on vacation for a couple weeks and come back to find that this thread is still going. And not only is it still going, but going wild
I seems like a lot of people are having fun thinking about various issues, but I read through most of the posts (I admit, I started to skim) and it seems like this thread lacks focus. That's not a criticism because this feels like a brainstorming session which is fine.
But what is the ultimate goal? I think it should be something like:
Create a server with customized rules in order to explore various economic and social interactions.
Personally, I don't think you're going to find any special revelations from MineCraft, but if you enjoy MC and politics, then it could be a fun intersection of interests. We should make a checklist of what it would take to get a server running and I'd start with finding as many people as possible that would be willing to join in. Perhaps create a new forum post just for listing players that want to sign up.
I think this is an interesing idea, but here are a few suggestions:
1: One of the main reasons faction servers often fail is because, instead of having large factions war each other, everyone either tries to survive on their own, or creating a small faction with 2-3 friends. This ultimately results in there being tons of small factions instead of a bunch of big ones, almost completely ruining the faction idea of teamwork. There are ways to fix this, such as making the mobs much tougher. Interesting effects, besides increased damage( unarmored, zombies could kill you in 2 hits, skeletons could in 3, and endermen could 1-hit kill) would be zombies tearing through dirt, endermen being able to pick up more blocks and tearing through walls easier, but this might require modding, which would decrease the number of players, since some people wouldn't want/be able to download the mods. But I may have strayed from the subject. The end result of increasing the power of enemy mobs should be that a player realizes that unless they are a mob-fighting prodigy, they can't go it lone-wolf and need the help of other players.
2:Cobble generation: Instead of cobble being removed entirely, stone could be found under a certain(pretty deep) level of the world, getting slightly more common as you go down, and still being more common than ores. Having a common-yet-a-hassle-to-collect material might help the economy. Everything besides stone/ores would be dirt.
3:Currency: Gold would make a good currency, due to the fact that it can be split down for small transactions, unlike most other forms of currency. The currency could go gold nuggets<gold ingots<gold blocks. However, this brings us to another suggestion: the nether. I've noticed that in your posts you haven't really acknowleged the nether, and my suggestion is that you remove the nether, or make it innaccesible, for 2 reasons: first that it would add another needless layer of complexity to the planning, and the second would be that since zombie pigmen drop gold nuggets, this would allow for infinite duplication of currency.
4: TNT: TNT getting more powerful and not destroying drops is a good idea, but the probm you seem to be having is for using it in combat. You seem to be making it so TNT takes much longer to detonate, and I think that pretty much solves the problem of its usage on the field, as with a significant lengthening of detonation time, enemies would notice it and be able to back away from it enough that no harm would be done, making it almost useless for combat. Another problem is for blasting down walls with it, since it's not much good building a heavily fortified wall only to have it blown to bits with a single block of TNT. You could circumvent this with obsidian, but it's a huge hassle to build a sizable wall of obsidian, not to mention that it's unsightly. A solution for this would be to make TNT much less effective, if not totally useless, against a material to build walls and buildings out of relatively easily doesn't really appear in map generation but can be player-created relatively easily, such as, if you accept my cobble proposal, stonebrick, if not, maybe just normal brick.
5: Map generation: I believe that biomes size should be changed to be directly proportional to the map size. If you have a 5000 blocks in every direction map size, then biomes should be relatively small, so you get a good mix of everything, while if you have a 25000 block in every direction map size, you should have larger biomes, since you will still be getting a good mix of everything due to the map size. Abandoned mineshafts, NPC villages, and strongholds should be prevented from being generated, as they wouldn't make much sense. Oceans should appear at the edge of the map, as it is annoying and ruins the immersion to be walking through a Taiga and suddenly see the message: You have reached the border of this world. Having ocean at the edges might actually provide a justification in-universe for not being able to cross the border, and deter players curiosity of what is beyond it. However, oceans should not be generated inside the border, as due to their size, they would take up a large portion of the map. If you really wanted to allow underwater cities though, you make them more like lakes, small enough o cross without taking real-life hours and yet big enough to allow for a city.
6: Raiding/pvp/griefing: No matter what you do, there will always be those who will grief and kill people because they feel like it. I think making the tribes no-pvp at first is a great idea, as it would provide a crutch until the nation was developed enough to handle pvp. A police force should also be a priority, as should building a highly-secure( without bedrock, it is impossible to make it inescapable, but it needs to be secure enough that going to prison is a punishment and not a slap on the wrist before they can continue. The police force must be large and very competent in order to keep crime down, and the jail must be very large and have lots of guards, as, judging by the normal server community, it would fill up quickly.
7: Death: I think deathbans should most definitley NOT be permanent. As you pointed out, this would thin the population too greatly for nations to be established. If you die in the beggining, you should immediately respawn, as with the toughened mobs, it would be hard to form a tribe at first with a temporary deathban. Once tribes are established and players have learned to live in relative safety, a 1-hour deathban could be imposed. Also, as far as dropping items goes, I think you should drop some of your stuff but not everything: you would not drop any exp and lose all of it, you wouldn't drop any armor that was on your being worn, you would drop whatever you were holding at the time(in your hand), with random chance dictating the rest of the items dropped, with the chance of them beng dropped increasing for the items in your hotbar.
8: Skills: I support the skill system that tracks your last actions, and gives you levels for each one accordingly depending on those actions.
Note that these are only suggestions, I do not intend to sound like I am forcing them down your throat, accept and reject as you see fit.
I'd like to remind everyone that we'd like to see the players solve these problems. Any modification to vanillla gameplay is to create an enjoyable atmosphere and make the formation of government possible. The only reason modifications are taking place to vanilla gameplay is because the player is too powerful and can be independent of any form of society.
@PatDay
We need to polish our current build, affirm ourselves that this will truly deliver the correct experience first, that is why I've tried to gain a majority on the the main and necessary ideas before we move into the details (see the post above yours).
@Delfill
You put some interesting ideas forward, however the idea is to situate players in this simulation, in all classes and positions, not AI. I can appreciate your criticism of Tom Zhu's skill system however, we really don't know how it will manifest specifically, your concern is definitely my concern as well. I'm not sure about ore generation, think of it this way, when you find ore you will be ecstatic and it would usually come in a large vein and would suggest more veins of the same ore are around. The decreasing the value of ore is an interesting concept but I'm not sure at this stage, it will require some thinking (I just woke up). I definitely like your idea about stone tools being crafted from smooth stone but it is just a minor edit in the grand scheme of things.
@TT2000
1.Harder mobs would be a good factor detracting from the lone-wolf ideal of minecraft, regardless, people can still hide in their homes and place torches. It would work too a degree and if it is a straight forward modification then I think it should be encouraged however, it is not entirely necessary, more powerful modifications could replace the effect.
2. The stone tools has a minor role to play in the grand scheme, if we ever need to solve the problem then I believe that the creation of stone tools out of smooth stone rather than cobble stone would be a fairer idea. Whilst your idea is creative, I'm not sure I agree with so much dirt.
3. Currency will be a player created aspect of the game, if the need for it arises. However I agree with you on the nether, if it would complicate the simulation, but then how will we get our nether wart? Something needs to be done here.
4. I am not sure how long the fuse time would be however it still would hold a coveted position in the equipment of war for it's building destroying capabilities and even if people retreated out of the range of TNT, this would be a highly tactical resource, the ability to make the enemy retreat allowing allies to regroup if they are losing. In addition players could mine under the battlefield to avoid being spotted. The main reason for the long fuse time was because it is a highly destructive resource, we don't want a single player to destroy everything although we encourage non-protected chests and PVP.
5. Agree with everything you've put forward here, however there would be multiple continents, much like an archipelago, maybe 2-4 continents and several small islands. This would see use of the boat and complicate resource transfer.
6. Again, a police force is a player driven aspect and will rise out of necessity. I don't think it is necessary to disable pvp at the beginning because players would already have the servers ideal, it is not a secret and would probably go out of their way to form tribes and nations.
7. Death is still something I'm not sure on, should you respawn at a general site like everyone else? Should you respawn at your bed or your town/villages plaza? You are right, we can't have a perma-death ban but the instances of instant respawn and temp-ban are reliant on where you respawn I believe.
Thanks for your input, it is good to keep discussion rolling.
You where talking about a cooldown on placing blocks. I think this is an bad idea, because waiting is boring xd I found an other solution what makes building harder and even more interesting:
I like the suggestion of structural requirements; it looks like an interesting way to force architecture to be more sensibly designed.
However, I do want to take issue with your "waiting is boring" point. Yes, I suppose it is boring to have to wait for things, but that's already in place for mining, and most especially obsidian. It works there because obsidian is so valuable, and also you're often collecting it in a somewhat dangerous environment; you're not bored because you're desperately hoping a creeper isn't going to sneak up behind you before you can get the block out. Likewise, if you're building something (especially if you're working with a group of others on the same task), you're not bored because you've got the bigger picture context to occupy you, you're already anticipating your next task and thinking about all this other context.
The purpose behind these delays is not simply to make it boring, but to impose a labour cost. YES, placing blocks becomes a bit more of a chore, making it so that all other things being equal, you'd rather not do it unless you have a good reason to. Having a reason to, though, transforms it into a challenge with a reward. Just like obsidian. It might well lead to smaller, more efficient structures, but that's one of the things the simulation is intended to discover: how will players' behaviour and design change when they're placed in a world with these parameters?
Anyone who gets bored placing or mining blocks probably shouldn't be playing Minecraft anyway.
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I guess I'm still confused why all these mods are required. I've never read an explanation on why vanilla MineCraft (with just a few existing mods) wouldn't be sufficient.
Why are we talking about delay timers and making the game so slow? What difference does the value of stone tools make? How will that help the simulation?
I'm not trying to be negative, but it seems like we're making a mountain out of a molehill. The best way to figure out what is needed in a real server is to just do it. Why wait?
Thank you for your response, and I see your logic. I forgot about nether wart, ghast tears, blaze rods, and magma cream when putting in my solution for the Nether. I think there is a plugin that can affect mob drops, so you could make it so zombie pigmen do not drop gold. I also see your logic in making stone tools out of smoothstone, as it would make wood a more practical tool tier. However, this should only apply to tools and not other cobble things(slabs, stairs, and especially furnaces.). I have another suggestion for spawn points that I forgot to include in my last post: The spawn points in the beggining could be somewhat customized, so you could have, say, a group of players spawn in the middle of one continent, another group spawn on the northwest corner, and a third group spawn on a different continent to the south other groups also spawning in different areas. This would allow settlements to spring up in different areas, and prevent civilization to be based around one central area. Thank you for your consideration.
Thanks for the link. I'm pretty sure it'd be a worthy server addition but people can simply use 3rd party software to evade it, whether people would go out of their way to do this I'm not sure. I think we will use it, if the availability of a server ever arises, even if people flock to 3rd party software, at least they'd be cooperating and working together.
Mining and its delay is boring, but the environment (exploring, mobs, danger of lava) and the gathering makes it fun. What has building to offer? (when the sun shines)
Buildings offer what they traditionally offer in minecraft, the establishment of achievement in your heart as you place the last block in that glorious castle, of course, this would be tenfold with delays, you would probably need a team of labourers.
I don't see gold as a big problem. The nether will be a difficult choice to make. It will draw resources and time to create a portal early on in game.
Now should a few tribes choose to do this and raid pigmen for gold it will only devalue the resource. Gold is mostly useless to me until building machines in buildcraft. That's IF you even include buildcraft into the server. (more on this shortly) Resources that remain difficult to attain will become the currency of the server. Gold is probably surpassed by fossil fuels as a modern economic motivator. In the past cows, tea, salt and even shells have been used as currency. There is no need for concern about gold or to fix anything. Economy will pan out on it's own.
Now as far as buildcraft where do we stand here? Because if the whole point of the game is to build a pretty village and then that's it. I myself will find it very difficult to be motivated to move forward,no matter how challenging it is to complete. I am however not worried about either the concerns of boredom due to task duration. If something is worth doing you will definitely be motivated by the bigger picture. Or being stuck in the same boring rut of a profession. 1000 actions are not that difficult to replace. All it will do is as intended, time and task management will be taken into consideration (by smart players) and so will bartering which in turn will help found an economy.
Albeit an interesting modification, for this simulation we will not be using buildcraft. The main drive of this is the creation of governing bodies who will interact with each other whether it be by conquest or alliances. What the governing body is up to the players, could be an autocratic government ruled with an iron first, could be a democracy. How these governing bodies interact is up to the governments themselves. Players main drive is to find their place in this world of politics, mining and toiling under the banner of their proud nation, secretly plotting its downfall or working your way up it or whatever else. I think, minecraft will be far more interesting now that you are playing in a political context.
Now the subject of TNT has truly not been addressed correctly. Everyone is focusing on TNT's ability to end LIFE. Now I for one will not care if I die by the sword, bow or TNT. Truth be told LIFE is not a valuable commodity on this hypothetical server. TIME is!! My problem lies with the destruction of my house, time collecting resources, to time spent building is the true cost of TNT. Now throw into that machines crafted through buildcraft and the resources they consume and your talking some serious game hours/days worth lost. All this at little expense to the villainous foe who charged or sneaked into your village. Got to be honest after I had finished blubbering my soar lil eyes out, I doubt I could bring myself to continue with the server.
We don't want TNT to be a game ender for people, however if a spy manages to do serious damage to a settlement, then it is not the administrators of the server's problem, it is the local guards problem for not being vigilant enough. Although, it does worry me that if we hide a players name when they are underground it would take a very observant guard to notice someone below their feet placing TNT.
I'm not trying to be negative, but it seems like we're making a mountain out of a molehill. The best way to figure out what is needed in a real server is to just do it. Why wait?
I'm contemplating scraping some cash together to start a server up, but to invest cash, I want to be certain that we are doing what is best. I'm not keen on changing the way the game is being played half way through it.
I have another suggestion for spawn points that I forgot to include in my last post: The spawn points in the beggining could be somewhat customized, so you could have, say, a group of players spawn in the middle of one continent, another group spawn on the northwest corner, and a third group spawn on a different continent to the south other groups also spawning in different areas. This would allow settlements to spring up in different areas, and prevent civilization to be based around one central area. Thank you for your consideration.
Yeah that is what I was thinking we should do, I like how you have put it though. I think that is what we will do, players will have a random group spawn point, where they and several others spawn. There would be several on a map, probably 10 or 15 maximum with varying numbers of players on total players present on the server.
On the topic of the nether, I've put some thought into it and I think it would be ok. If players have the resources it offers several benefits and splash potions would serve an interesting combat role.
But it must be limited. It should never be possible to become a master at everything simultaneously.
In actual play, I think it will be very rare for people to fully max out in a certain skills, and that's fine. It should still be worthwhile to have, say, 500 points in melee, 200 points in jump and 300 points in sprint, if you're going into battle. You may even be more effective overall than the heavy who tanks up to 1000 points in melee, because you can outmaneuver him and take the high ground, or run around behind to take out his archers. Tactics, formations, use of terrain all become more interesting, and units become more distinct in their capabilities.
Just a reiteration, we want to create this experience built on players not modifications to the vanilla experience, the only modifications would serve as a gentle push towards the creation of forms of government. Since single player is so easy the modifications should be somewhat geared to the elimination of the lone wolf and encourage cooperation between players.
The issue of stone tools continues to elude me, however in the grand scheme of things I believe it may be too minor to worry about. I think the only necessary implementations that would be needed: A limited uptime (No one has challenged this yet), a limited customised map with limited and unequally distributed resources and Tom Zhu's refined skill system.
Just some fire to add to the discussion;
Bone meal may find itself defeating any food crisis if left in its state.
With respect to building with more exotic or expensive materials, that's actually one of the things I sort of had in mind with the skills/delay system: we can adjust the delays for placing various materials. So, for example, cheap and plentiful cobble would have the drawback that it's VERY labour intensive to place: long cooldown per block. Brick or stone brick, on the other hand, fits together quite easily, and should have a relatively brief cooldown in placing.
(Incidentally, I think that smooth stone is likely to be the favoured building material for a lot of projects, owing to the placement delay. Smooth stone will take a long time to place by hand, but if you build a frame and fill it with water, and then let lava pour into it, it's like pouring concrete!)
Each block would have a base delay for mining it (which it already does now, actually) and a separate base delay time for placing it. The placement delay might differ considerably from the mining delay. For example, smooth stone should have a long delay to mine with a pick, while cobble should be relatively easier since it's already broken up and is mostly just chunks wedged in among each other. But a block of smooth stone should place relatively quickly, while cobble takes a long time to put all those little chunks into some kind of stable shape. Stone brick, on the other hand, should be faster to place than either smooth stone or cobble, because it's carefully crafted in advance to go together like Lego. It should also be almost as hard to take apart as smooth stone.
I don't know. I haven't really thought about what the specific numbers for things are. I've mainly been concerned with the big picture of the system overall. But I think we can look to the delay of mining obsidian with a diamond pick as a hint of what people are prepared to endure to get their hands on something very valuable.
I think that's the sort of thing that would need to be left up to players to develop. They might, they might not.
I think that this is all that is needed to attain the environment from civilisation can form. Even Tom Zhu's skill system is not entirely compulsory for the simulation to play out. Do we wish to move further into the details of the aforementioned alterations or are there any other broad problems that may interrupt the process of government we have not perceived? By this, I mean, can we agree on the points above that are in bold thoroughly?
I seems like a lot of people are having fun thinking about various issues, but I read through most of the posts (I admit, I started to skim) and it seems like this thread lacks focus. That's not a criticism because this feels like a brainstorming session which is fine.
But what is the ultimate goal? I think it should be something like:
Create a server with customized rules in order to explore various economic and social interactions.
Personally, I don't think you're going to find any special revelations from MineCraft, but if you enjoy MC and politics, then it could be a fun intersection of interests. We should make a checklist of what it would take to get a server running and I'd start with finding as many people as possible that would be willing to join in. Perhaps create a new forum post just for listing players that want to sign up.
1: One of the main reasons faction servers often fail is because, instead of having large factions war each other, everyone either tries to survive on their own, or creating a small faction with 2-3 friends. This ultimately results in there being tons of small factions instead of a bunch of big ones, almost completely ruining the faction idea of teamwork. There are ways to fix this, such as making the mobs much tougher. Interesting effects, besides increased damage( unarmored, zombies could kill you in 2 hits, skeletons could in 3, and endermen could 1-hit kill) would be zombies tearing through dirt, endermen being able to pick up more blocks and tearing through walls easier, but this might require modding, which would decrease the number of players, since some people wouldn't want/be able to download the mods. But I may have strayed from the subject. The end result of increasing the power of enemy mobs should be that a player realizes that unless they are a mob-fighting prodigy, they can't go it lone-wolf and need the help of other players.
2:Cobble generation: Instead of cobble being removed entirely, stone could be found under a certain(pretty deep) level of the world, getting slightly more common as you go down, and still being more common than ores. Having a common-yet-a-hassle-to-collect material might help the economy. Everything besides stone/ores would be dirt.
3:Currency: Gold would make a good currency, due to the fact that it can be split down for small transactions, unlike most other forms of currency. The currency could go gold nuggets<gold ingots<gold blocks. However, this brings us to another suggestion: the nether. I've noticed that in your posts you haven't really acknowleged the nether, and my suggestion is that you remove the nether, or make it innaccesible, for 2 reasons: first that it would add another needless layer of complexity to the planning, and the second would be that since zombie pigmen drop gold nuggets, this would allow for infinite duplication of currency.
4: TNT: TNT getting more powerful and not destroying drops is a good idea, but the probm you seem to be having is for using it in combat. You seem to be making it so TNT takes much longer to detonate, and I think that pretty much solves the problem of its usage on the field, as with a significant lengthening of detonation time, enemies would notice it and be able to back away from it enough that no harm would be done, making it almost useless for combat. Another problem is for blasting down walls with it, since it's not much good building a heavily fortified wall only to have it blown to bits with a single block of TNT. You could circumvent this with obsidian, but it's a huge hassle to build a sizable wall of obsidian, not to mention that it's unsightly. A solution for this would be to make TNT much less effective, if not totally useless, against a material to build walls and buildings out of relatively easily doesn't really appear in map generation but can be player-created relatively easily, such as, if you accept my cobble proposal, stonebrick, if not, maybe just normal brick.
5: Map generation: I believe that biomes size should be changed to be directly proportional to the map size. If you have a 5000 blocks in every direction map size, then biomes should be relatively small, so you get a good mix of everything, while if you have a 25000 block in every direction map size, you should have larger biomes, since you will still be getting a good mix of everything due to the map size. Abandoned mineshafts, NPC villages, and strongholds should be prevented from being generated, as they wouldn't make much sense. Oceans should appear at the edge of the map, as it is annoying and ruins the immersion to be walking through a Taiga and suddenly see the message: You have reached the border of this world. Having ocean at the edges might actually provide a justification in-universe for not being able to cross the border, and deter players curiosity of what is beyond it. However, oceans should not be generated inside the border, as due to their size, they would take up a large portion of the map. If you really wanted to allow underwater cities though, you make them more like lakes, small enough o cross without taking real-life hours and yet big enough to allow for a city.
6: Raiding/pvp/griefing: No matter what you do, there will always be those who will grief and kill people because they feel like it. I think making the tribes no-pvp at first is a great idea, as it would provide a crutch until the nation was developed enough to handle pvp. A police force should also be a priority, as should building a highly-secure( without bedrock, it is impossible to make it inescapable, but it needs to be secure enough that going to prison is a punishment and not a slap on the wrist before they can continue. The police force must be large and very competent in order to keep crime down, and the jail must be very large and have lots of guards, as, judging by the normal server community, it would fill up quickly.
7: Death: I think deathbans should most definitley NOT be permanent. As you pointed out, this would thin the population too greatly for nations to be established. If you die in the beggining, you should immediately respawn, as with the toughened mobs, it would be hard to form a tribe at first with a temporary deathban. Once tribes are established and players have learned to live in relative safety, a 1-hour deathban could be imposed. Also, as far as dropping items goes, I think you should drop some of your stuff but not everything: you would not drop any exp and lose all of it, you wouldn't drop any armor that was on your being worn, you would drop whatever you were holding at the time(in your hand), with random chance dictating the rest of the items dropped, with the chance of them beng dropped increasing for the items in your hotbar.
8: Skills: I support the skill system that tracks your last actions, and gives you levels for each one accordingly depending on those actions.
Note that these are only suggestions, I do not intend to sound like I am forcing them down your throat, accept and reject as you see fit.
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@PatDay
We need to polish our current build, affirm ourselves that this will truly deliver the correct experience first, that is why I've tried to gain a majority on the the main and necessary ideas before we move into the details (see the post above yours).
@Delfill
You put some interesting ideas forward, however the idea is to situate players in this simulation, in all classes and positions, not AI. I can appreciate your criticism of Tom Zhu's skill system however, we really don't know how it will manifest specifically, your concern is definitely my concern as well. I'm not sure about ore generation, think of it this way, when you find ore you will be ecstatic and it would usually come in a large vein and would suggest more veins of the same ore are around. The decreasing the value of ore is an interesting concept but I'm not sure at this stage, it will require some thinking (I just woke up). I definitely like your idea about stone tools being crafted from smooth stone but it is just a minor edit in the grand scheme of things.
@TT2000
1.Harder mobs would be a good factor detracting from the lone-wolf ideal of minecraft, regardless, people can still hide in their homes and place torches. It would work too a degree and if it is a straight forward modification then I think it should be encouraged however, it is not entirely necessary, more powerful modifications could replace the effect.
2. The stone tools has a minor role to play in the grand scheme, if we ever need to solve the problem then I believe that the creation of stone tools out of smooth stone rather than cobble stone would be a fairer idea. Whilst your idea is creative, I'm not sure I agree with so much dirt.
3. Currency will be a player created aspect of the game, if the need for it arises. However I agree with you on the nether, if it would complicate the simulation, but then how will we get our nether wart? Something needs to be done here.
4. I am not sure how long the fuse time would be however it still would hold a coveted position in the equipment of war for it's building destroying capabilities and even if people retreated out of the range of TNT, this would be a highly tactical resource, the ability to make the enemy retreat allowing allies to regroup if they are losing. In addition players could mine under the battlefield to avoid being spotted. The main reason for the long fuse time was because it is a highly destructive resource, we don't want a single player to destroy everything although we encourage non-protected chests and PVP.
5. Agree with everything you've put forward here, however there would be multiple continents, much like an archipelago, maybe 2-4 continents and several small islands. This would see use of the boat and complicate resource transfer.
6. Again, a police force is a player driven aspect and will rise out of necessity. I don't think it is necessary to disable pvp at the beginning because players would already have the servers ideal, it is not a secret and would probably go out of their way to form tribes and nations.
7. Death is still something I'm not sure on, should you respawn at a general site like everyone else? Should you respawn at your bed or your town/villages plaza? You are right, we can't have a perma-death ban but the instances of instant respawn and temp-ban are reliant on where you respawn I believe.
Thanks for your input, it is good to keep discussion rolling.
I like the suggestion of structural requirements; it looks like an interesting way to force architecture to be more sensibly designed.
However, I do want to take issue with your "waiting is boring" point. Yes, I suppose it is boring to have to wait for things, but that's already in place for mining, and most especially obsidian. It works there because obsidian is so valuable, and also you're often collecting it in a somewhat dangerous environment; you're not bored because you're desperately hoping a creeper isn't going to sneak up behind you before you can get the block out. Likewise, if you're building something (especially if you're working with a group of others on the same task), you're not bored because you've got the bigger picture context to occupy you, you're already anticipating your next task and thinking about all this other context.
The purpose behind these delays is not simply to make it boring, but to impose a labour cost. YES, placing blocks becomes a bit more of a chore, making it so that all other things being equal, you'd rather not do it unless you have a good reason to. Having a reason to, though, transforms it into a challenge with a reward. Just like obsidian. It might well lead to smaller, more efficient structures, but that's one of the things the simulation is intended to discover: how will players' behaviour and design change when they're placed in a world with these parameters?
Anyone who gets bored placing or mining blocks probably shouldn't be playing Minecraft anyway.
Why are we talking about delay timers and making the game so slow? What difference does the value of stone tools make? How will that help the simulation?
I'm not trying to be negative, but it seems like we're making a mountain out of a molehill. The best way to figure out what is needed in a real server is to just do it. Why wait?
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Thanks for the link. I'm pretty sure it'd be a worthy server addition but people can simply use 3rd party software to evade it, whether people would go out of their way to do this I'm not sure. I think we will use it, if the availability of a server ever arises, even if people flock to 3rd party software, at least they'd be cooperating and working together.
Buildings offer what they traditionally offer in minecraft, the establishment of achievement in your heart as you place the last block in that glorious castle, of course, this would be tenfold with delays, you would probably need a team of labourers.
Albeit an interesting modification, for this simulation we will not be using buildcraft. The main drive of this is the creation of governing bodies who will interact with each other whether it be by conquest or alliances. What the governing body is up to the players, could be an autocratic government ruled with an iron first, could be a democracy. How these governing bodies interact is up to the governments themselves. Players main drive is to find their place in this world of politics, mining and toiling under the banner of their proud nation, secretly plotting its downfall or working your way up it or whatever else. I think, minecraft will be far more interesting now that you are playing in a political context.
We don't want TNT to be a game ender for people, however if a spy manages to do serious damage to a settlement, then it is not the administrators of the server's problem, it is the local guards problem for not being vigilant enough. Although, it does worry me that if we hide a players name when they are underground it would take a very observant guard to notice someone below their feet placing TNT.
I'm contemplating scraping some cash together to start a server up, but to invest cash, I want to be certain that we are doing what is best. I'm not keen on changing the way the game is being played half way through it.
Yeah that is what I was thinking we should do, I like how you have put it though. I think that is what we will do, players will have a random group spawn point, where they and several others spawn. There would be several on a map, probably 10 or 15 maximum with varying numbers of players on total players present on the server.
On the topic of the nether, I've put some thought into it and I think it would be ok. If players have the resources it offers several benefits and splash potions would serve an interesting combat role.