Minecraft's singleplayer experience allows any person the opportunity to create. Within the framework of the game, one is limited only by imagination. Blocks are only modified by the single person playing. If you dump lava on your house, it is because you decided to do so (or perhaps one of your personalities).
Minecraft's multiplayer experience opens the environment up to other people. Blocks are modified by everyone in the server. If the server allows access to the public, anyone can connect. When entering a server, one must do so with the knowledge that any time invested in the Minecraft experience is done so in an environment with people that are most likely suffering from some sort of mental illness. Anyone familiar with the internet knows that 9 out of 10 people on the internet are crazy... me being the 10th person.
So, it is a mistake to expect the same sort of relaxing, zen-like experience in singleplayer on a multiplayer server. I wouldn't expect people in prison or a mental asylum to behave with the utmost courtesy or respect if I was in the yard building a sandcastle.
And then to cry about it when some sadistic psychopath stomps all over it? That is my fault for investing so much value into my sandcastle which was destined to be destroyed by the rampaging lunatic.
Griefing only exists in the mind of the naive player that imagines other players will behave by a nonexistent set of rules. Minecraft does not contain any rules governing gameplay. Thus, it is not possible to exploit or cheat. Griefing is a social construct.
You also encourage so called "griefers" the more you complain about it.
I am not here to say that people are right or wrong in their actions. That is not my place. I cannot do so because there are no standards of behavior by which to judge. The game does not have any rules. There are no teams. There is no friendly fire. A player cannot spoil an objective by throwing a bomb into an area that players cannot move into. There is no camping. There are no hostages.
If servers are open to the public and allow individuals to roam freely and manipulate blocks as in the singleplayer game, talk of "griefing" is little more than useless whining. Tools exist whereby servers can be restricted to people who have consented to a certain standard of behavior.
There are people who play multiplayer Minecraft and believe there should be standards of behavior. I do not object to this notion. People should be free to do so. Do so on your own servers. It is silly to say a person is a "griefer" or that such an idea even exists.
All that means is, you got mad at a video game. Someone somewhere else in the world clicked their mouse and it made you angry. But in reality, it or they didn't make you angry. You made yourself angry. You wanted to get angry. You created an idea. You built a house of cards. Somebody walked next to it. It fell. Then you got angry.
Such ridiculous anger is funny to most outside observers. It is understandable that some would play Minecraft multiplayer for the sole purpose of provoking such a response. Look! A sandcastle! Stomp, stomp! Waaaaah! Hulk Mad! RAWR! You are a *insertexpressionofanger. Result? LOLZ
My suggestion? Next time you see falling lava... or water... laugh. Join. Weeee... lava... uhmm... yeah. Weee made lava fall. awesome? hmmm, nobody is mad. This sucks. K BYE.
Take a bucket, pick up the lava. Move along. These aren't the droids you are looking for.
Or God forbid you build something new.
In closing, I don't expect many will agree with my sentiments. I don't know what to expect. Typically, people accuse so called "griefers" of being immature. But it is the immature individual who cannot cope with an emotional trigger.
If I were to observe two people, a griefer and a whiner, I would say the griefer is the more mature. The griefer does not need to live in a structured environment to protect him or herself from dangerous emotional triggers. The griefer can function in the world of Minecraft with others much better. The world of Minecraft is a world without rules. That is the rule. There are no rules.
Artificially constructing environments of social control shows that such individuals cannot play the game the way it is intended. By that metric, the whiners fail Minecraft.
Griefers win.
I hope this provokes intelligent discussion. I have low standards. So don't be intimidated.
Minecraft's singleplayer experience allows any person the opportunity to create. Within the framework of the game, one is limited only by imagination. Blocks are only modified by the single person playing. If you dump lava on your house, it is because you decided to do so (or perhaps one of your personalities).
Minecraft's multiplayer experience opens the environment up to other people. Blocks are modified by everyone in the server. If the server allows access to the public, anyone can connect. When entering a server, one must do so with the knowledge that any time invested in the Minecraft experience is done so in an environment with people that are most likely suffering from some sort of mental illness. Anyone familiar with the internet knows that 9 out of 10 people on the internet are crazy... me being the 10th person.
So, it is a mistake to expect the same sort of relaxing, zen-like experience in singleplayer on a multiplayer server. I wouldn't expect people in prison or a mental asylum to behave with the utmost courtesy or respect if I was in the yard building a sandcastle.
And then to cry about it when some sadistic psychopath stomps all over it? That is my fault for investing so much value into my sandcastle which was destined to be destroyed by the rampaging lunatic.
Griefing only exists in the mind of the naive player that imagines other players will behave by a nonexistent set of rules. Minecraft does not contain any rules governing gameplay. Thus, it is not possible to exploit or cheat. Griefing is a social construct.
You also encourage so called "griefers" the more you complain about it.
I am not here to say that people are right or wrong in their actions. That is not my place. I cannot do so because there are no standards of behavior by which to judge. The game does not have any rules. There are no teams. There is no friendly fire. A player cannot spoil an objective by throwing a bomb into an area that players cannot move into. There is no camping. There are no hostages.
If servers are open to the public and allow individuals to roam freely and manipulate blocks as in the singleplayer game, talk of "griefing" is little more than useless whining. Tools exist whereby servers can be restricted to people who have consented to a certain standard of behavior.
There are people who play multiplayer Minecraft and believe there should be standards of behavior. I do not object to this notion. People should be free to do so. Do so on your own servers. It is silly to say a person is a "griefer" or that such an idea even exists.
All that means is, you got mad at a video game. Someone somewhere else in the world clicked their mouse and it made you angry. But in reality, it or they didn't make you angry. You made yourself angry. You wanted to get angry. You created an idea. You built a house of cards. Somebody walked next to it. It fell. Then you got angry.
Such ridiculous anger is funny to most outside observers. It is understandable that some would play Minecraft multiplayer for the sole purpose of provoking such a response. Look! A sandcastle! Stomp, stomp! Waaaaah! Hulk Mad! RAWR! You are a *insertexpressionofanger. Result? LOLZ
My suggestion? Next time you see falling lava... or water... laugh. Join. Weeee... lava... uhmm... yeah. Weee made lava fall. awesome? hmmm, nobody is mad. This sucks. K BYE.
Take a bucket, pick up the lava. Move along. These aren't the droids you are looking for.
Or God forbid you build something new.
In closing, I don't expect many will agree with my sentiments. I don't know what to expect. Typically, people accuse so called "griefers" of being immature. But it is the immature individual who cannot cope with an emotional trigger.
If I were to observe two people, a griefer and a whiner, I would say the griefer is the more mature. The griefer does not need to live in a structured environment to protect him or herself from dangerous emotional triggers. The griefer can function in the world of Minecraft with others much better. The world of Minecraft is a world without rules. That is the rule. There are no rules.
Artificially constructing environments of social control shows that such individuals cannot play the game the way it is intended. By that metric, the whiners fail Minecraft.
Griefers win.
I hope this provokes intelligent discussion. I have low standards. So don't be intimidated.
Very interesting philosophy. I find it hard to disagree with you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like Minecraft, helping people in need, AND winning prizes? Craft For A Cause is for you then!
Griefing is not an illusion. To believe that is a naive epiphany because in doing is the same as pretending it does not exist and closing yourself off from the reality of what is really happening. People grief because they know they can get away with it for so long, get banned from a server, then move onto another. Its a psychological way of empowering themselves because nobody can really hurt them in real life, or in the game for that matter.
There are many types of servers. 'Griefing' might very well be a reasonable thing to expect when interacting with anonymous, random people on the internet. The fact that griefing is likely does not make it acceptable. If you go to a server geared towards building impressive structures, starting a town, and having a pleasant time with your friends, the last thing you're going to want is some douchebag rampantly destroying the things you've worked on.
The thing is, not all servers are, as you said, 'prison yards'. Many servers are not centered around survival, but around creation. The owner of a server will define the rules of their server, and if destroying other people's creations is against those rules, then you should either find another server or not destroy other people's creations.
Most griefers do not grief simply because they enjoy destroying things. They are looking for a reaction, and that means they don't just destroy things. They break every rule they can find on the server, to try and incite as much rage as possible. Griefers are nothing more than people who enjoy ruining other people's fun, and no matter how likely it is that people like this exist, that does not make it ok.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Would you dare to meet the gaze of the basilisk, or face the flames as the phoenix burns?
What are you, a philosopher?! But anyways, I do have to agree with you, despite being what you call a "whiner." You have a very good point and I'd hate for anyone to disagree. I don't like people destroying my stuff (that's just rude and inconsiderate), as I find it annoying. Also, I just have to disagree with the one point of the "grievers" being more mature. Yes, they are playing the game as it's "meant to be played," but in reality, they're most likely jealous that they can't build as well as you, so the feel that they need to destroy it. This same thing goes with IRL bullying. People feel insecure about themselves so they feel as if they have to bring others down just to feel good about themselves.
Minecraft has no actual rules, but it's just evil for people to partake in these "grieving" actions. Can't we all live in harmony with each other and overcome the feelings of jealousy?
Somebody destroys you fort, but you don't have to be angry at it. It's bound to happen. But neither the "griever" or the "whiner" are mature. Grievers don't have to grief and whiners don't have to whine. That simple statement makes it better for everyone. But what am I saying? That only makes it better for the "whiners." The "grievers" have to deal with their jealousy a different way, and if grieving does come along then "whiners" have to deal with their anger a different way.
The world is harsh and unforgiving but only because we make it this way. Life itself would be better for all if we could just get along, and stop being rude to those who can't take the "hardcore' lifestyle. Those who can't live the "hardcore" lifestyle have to learn to not get angry when something like grieving happens. They must just accept it and move on. It's just a game, it's not a big deal.
There are many types of servers. 'Griefing' might very well be a reasonable thing to expect when interacting with anonymous, random people on the internet. The fact that griefing is likely does not make it acceptable. If you go to a server geared towards building impressive structures, starting a town, and having a pleasant time with your friends, the last thing you're going to want is some douchebag rampantly destroying the things you've worked on.
The thing is, not all servers are, as you said, 'prison yards'. Many servers are not centered around survival, but around creation. The owner of a server will define the rules of their server, and if destroying other people's creations is against those rules, then you should either find another server or not destroy other people's creations.
Most griefers do not grief simply because they enjoy destroying things. They are looking for a reaction, and that means they don't just destroy things. They break every rule they can find on the server, to try and incite as much rage as possible. Griefers are nothing more than people who enjoy ruining other people's fun, and no matter how likely it is that people like this exist, that does not make it ok.
your statement makes it difficult to agree with myself
Wow! I'm surprised to see a few quick agreeable responses. Perhaps you are merely attempting to disprove my thoughts on the subject by using reverse psychology!
I am interested to hear from individuals who happen to disagree with me on the subject. Considering my particular viewpoint, I have difficulties thinking about this issue in a thoughtful fashion from an opposing point of view. I would imagine such opposing arguments to be more passionate, considering the emotional triggers involved with "griefer" experience and my portrayal of their victims as "whiners".
As one might guess, I do not typically play multiplayer with the intent of investing much emotional stock in the things I build. I enjoy exploring servers that have compiled extensive builds. Undoubtedly, I would expect admins to have backup upon backup. Such worlds are usually compilations.
Having some experience with running multiplayer servers, I know that worlds cannot be wrecked by a random player. And if that were the case, I would have only myself to blame as the admin in control of the server.
I really would like a well thought out, alternate viewpoint, if not a complete opposing point of view to my particular philosophy.
If not for the purposes of changing my mind or the minds of others... at least to consider. I can easily weigh and respect other people's thoughts and philosophies.
Emotional reaction are easy to dismiss... especially if they are the result of one's own actions.
That is not to say other people's feelings don't matter. Certainly, feelings matter. But emotions exist as dynamic states which can change as the result of varying environmental, mental and biological conditions. Emotions are best experienced or coped with... especially in social interaction (which is the case in Minecraft multiplayer). Philosophies and beliefs are less volatile conditions and should be afforded more respect or consideration.
Damn. I always had that sort of idea in my head but I could have never explained it like you. +1
I never looked at it that way before. The question then becomes where the burden of responsibility lies. It can be on the griefer, the administrator, or the player in question. Where does the responisibility of the player to search for a safe server end, and the responisbility of an administrator to provide adequate warning about the risk of griefing begin?
The player ought to be able to discern the relative risk of a server without having to read more than its (possible) webpage and/or forum thread and its title. Beyond that, it is the responsibility of the server administrator to provide what they advertise. However, this does not mean that griefers are off the hook. If the administrator's attempts to protect his/her server are defeated because of something beyond their control or possible knowledge, then they cannot be held responsible (e.g., a freak storm fries the server or Anonymous decides to hack the server).
Your model also assumes that the player is given adequate and correct information to make a decision. This is not always the case. Furthermore, if a griefer were to break into a server (rather than the freebuild server you described), the player cannot be held responsible. The player had no reason to suspect that their creation would be destroyed. No server is perfectly safe, but the notion that all are equally susceptible to hacking is foolish.
(off topic)
Philosophy is a form of magic. Everyone makes a good point and that makes it difficult to fully agree with 1 person
(somewhat on topic)
Wouldn't it be possible for somebody to summarize everyone's views on the subject so that everyone can find a way to agree with each other completely?
I love griefing. To me, Minecraft is about construction AND destruction. If you farmed enough gunpowder to make dynamite and blow the **** out of my treehouse, and you're a destructive person, DO IT :biggrin.gif:
I just don't like when people use hacks and such to grief. That's not really in the spirit of things :sad.gif:
Griefing is not an illusion. To believe that is a naive epiphany because in doing is the same as pretending it does not exist and closing yourself off from the reality of what is really happening. People grief because they know they can get away with it for so long, get banned from a server, then move onto another. Its a psychological way of empowering themselves because nobody can really hurt them in real life, or in the game for that matter.
The person that engages in behavior considered to be griefing does not create power for him or herself. The person who witnesses a particular action and responds by entering a hyper-emotional state to that action give the "griefer" this "power". I would say this relationship is a game constructed between two consenting individuals within Minecraft's world. Because Minecraft does not define the rules of this game, the griefing game is an illusion.
Griefers and the ragers (a more aggressive term than whiners) both recognize the behavior that constitutes "griefing". Both types of players know how to react in that kind of situation. Ragers rage, griefers grief. When a griefer is banned, the ragers win. When the rager quits or escalates to the point of confronting the griefer, the griefer wins.
There is no "power" involved in this relationship. How would you define power? Both people are sitting at their computers, clicking the mouse and pressing keys on their keyboard?
The rager has the most control (power, perhaps?) since that person's reaction determines the level of enjoyment the griefer experiences.
What I wrote about is'nt a measure to displace your theory. But what you say is contradictory. You say Griefing is an illusion, yet you write about the fact that people do unpleasant things to another person's world. Is that not the very definition to the thing you say does not exist?
so would you be ok with someone hacking your computer and putting a virus in it? i mean the internet has no set of rules after all, and you know that hackers are out there.
There were no rules to govern human behavior towards each other until we made them up, so maybe its time mojang came up with some rules for multiplayer
i dont see myself being able to win an argument against you, you are a better debater than i am, but i still disagree and i dont even play multiplayer
so would you be ok with someone hacking your computer and putting a virus in it? i mean the internet has no set of rules after all, and you know that hackers are out there.
There were no rules to govern human behavior towards each other until we made them up, so maybe its time mojang came up with some rules for multiplayer
i dont see myself being able to win an argument against you, you are a better debater than i am, but i still disagree and i dont even play multiplayer
Actually laws have been passed internationally making hacking illegal. So the internet does have some set rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻) Follow me on twitter: @goanimals123
Minecraft's multiplayer experience opens the environment up to other people. Blocks are modified by everyone in the server. If the server allows access to the public, anyone can connect. When entering a server, one must do so with the knowledge that any time invested in the Minecraft experience is done so in an environment with people that are most likely suffering from some sort of mental illness. Anyone familiar with the internet knows that 9 out of 10 people on the internet are crazy... me being the 10th person.
So, it is a mistake to expect the same sort of relaxing, zen-like experience in singleplayer on a multiplayer server. I wouldn't expect people in prison or a mental asylum to behave with the utmost courtesy or respect if I was in the yard building a sandcastle.
And then to cry about it when some sadistic psychopath stomps all over it? That is my fault for investing so much value into my sandcastle which was destined to be destroyed by the rampaging lunatic.
Griefing only exists in the mind of the naive player that imagines other players will behave by a nonexistent set of rules. Minecraft does not contain any rules governing gameplay. Thus, it is not possible to exploit or cheat. Griefing is a social construct.
You also encourage so called "griefers" the more you complain about it.
I am not here to say that people are right or wrong in their actions. That is not my place. I cannot do so because there are no standards of behavior by which to judge. The game does not have any rules. There are no teams. There is no friendly fire. A player cannot spoil an objective by throwing a bomb into an area that players cannot move into. There is no camping. There are no hostages.
If servers are open to the public and allow individuals to roam freely and manipulate blocks as in the singleplayer game, talk of "griefing" is little more than useless whining. Tools exist whereby servers can be restricted to people who have consented to a certain standard of behavior.
There are people who play multiplayer Minecraft and believe there should be standards of behavior. I do not object to this notion. People should be free to do so. Do so on your own servers. It is silly to say a person is a "griefer" or that such an idea even exists.
All that means is, you got mad at a video game. Someone somewhere else in the world clicked their mouse and it made you angry. But in reality, it or they didn't make you angry. You made yourself angry. You wanted to get angry. You created an idea. You built a house of cards. Somebody walked next to it. It fell. Then you got angry.
Such ridiculous anger is funny to most outside observers. It is understandable that some would play Minecraft multiplayer for the sole purpose of provoking such a response. Look! A sandcastle! Stomp, stomp! Waaaaah! Hulk Mad! RAWR! You are a *insertexpressionofanger. Result? LOLZ
My suggestion? Next time you see falling lava... or water... laugh. Join. Weeee... lava... uhmm... yeah. Weee made lava fall. awesome? hmmm, nobody is mad. This sucks. K BYE.
Take a bucket, pick up the lava. Move along. These aren't the droids you are looking for.
Or God forbid you build something new.
In closing, I don't expect many will agree with my sentiments. I don't know what to expect. Typically, people accuse so called "griefers" of being immature. But it is the immature individual who cannot cope with an emotional trigger.
If I were to observe two people, a griefer and a whiner, I would say the griefer is the more mature. The griefer does not need to live in a structured environment to protect him or herself from dangerous emotional triggers. The griefer can function in the world of Minecraft with others much better. The world of Minecraft is a world without rules. That is the rule. There are no rules.
Artificially constructing environments of social control shows that such individuals cannot play the game the way it is intended. By that metric, the whiners fail Minecraft.
Griefers win.
I hope this provokes intelligent discussion. I have low standards. So don't be intimidated.
Very interesting philosophy. I find it hard to disagree with you.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻) Follow me on twitter: @goanimals123
There are many types of servers. 'Griefing' might very well be a reasonable thing to expect when interacting with anonymous, random people on the internet. The fact that griefing is likely does not make it acceptable. If you go to a server geared towards building impressive structures, starting a town, and having a pleasant time with your friends, the last thing you're going to want is some douchebag rampantly destroying the things you've worked on.
The thing is, not all servers are, as you said, 'prison yards'. Many servers are not centered around survival, but around creation. The owner of a server will define the rules of their server, and if destroying other people's creations is against those rules, then you should either find another server or not destroy other people's creations.
Most griefers do not grief simply because they enjoy destroying things. They are looking for a reaction, and that means they don't just destroy things. They break every rule they can find on the server, to try and incite as much rage as possible. Griefers are nothing more than people who enjoy ruining other people's fun, and no matter how likely it is that people like this exist, that does not make it ok.
Minecraft has no actual rules, but it's just evil for people to partake in these "grieving" actions. Can't we all live in harmony with each other and overcome the feelings of jealousy?
Somebody destroys you fort, but you don't have to be angry at it. It's bound to happen. But neither the "griever" or the "whiner" are mature. Grievers don't have to grief and whiners don't have to whine. That simple statement makes it better for everyone. But what am I saying? That only makes it better for the "whiners." The "grievers" have to deal with their jealousy a different way, and if grieving does come along then "whiners" have to deal with their anger a different way.
The world is harsh and unforgiving but only because we make it this way. Life itself would be better for all if we could just get along, and stop being rude to those who can't take the "hardcore' lifestyle. Those who can't live the "hardcore" lifestyle have to learn to not get angry when something like grieving happens. They must just accept it and move on. It's just a game, it's not a big deal.
your statement makes it difficult to agree with myself
I am interested to hear from individuals who happen to disagree with me on the subject. Considering my particular viewpoint, I have difficulties thinking about this issue in a thoughtful fashion from an opposing point of view. I would imagine such opposing arguments to be more passionate, considering the emotional triggers involved with "griefer" experience and my portrayal of their victims as "whiners".
As one might guess, I do not typically play multiplayer with the intent of investing much emotional stock in the things I build. I enjoy exploring servers that have compiled extensive builds. Undoubtedly, I would expect admins to have backup upon backup. Such worlds are usually compilations.
Having some experience with running multiplayer servers, I know that worlds cannot be wrecked by a random player. And if that were the case, I would have only myself to blame as the admin in control of the server.
I really would like a well thought out, alternate viewpoint, if not a complete opposing point of view to my particular philosophy.
If not for the purposes of changing my mind or the minds of others... at least to consider. I can easily weigh and respect other people's thoughts and philosophies.
Emotional reaction are easy to dismiss... especially if they are the result of one's own actions.
That is not to say other people's feelings don't matter. Certainly, feelings matter. But emotions exist as dynamic states which can change as the result of varying environmental, mental and biological conditions. Emotions are best experienced or coped with... especially in social interaction (which is the case in Minecraft multiplayer). Philosophies and beliefs are less volatile conditions and should be afforded more respect or consideration.
I never looked at it that way before. The question then becomes where the burden of responsibility lies. It can be on the griefer, the administrator, or the player in question. Where does the responisibility of the player to search for a safe server end, and the responisbility of an administrator to provide adequate warning about the risk of griefing begin?
The player ought to be able to discern the relative risk of a server without having to read more than its (possible) webpage and/or forum thread and its title. Beyond that, it is the responsibility of the server administrator to provide what they advertise. However, this does not mean that griefers are off the hook. If the administrator's attempts to protect his/her server are defeated because of something beyond their control or possible knowledge, then they cannot be held responsible (e.g., a freak storm fries the server or Anonymous decides to hack the server).
Your model also assumes that the player is given adequate and correct information to make a decision. This is not always the case. Furthermore, if a griefer were to break into a server (rather than the freebuild server you described), the player cannot be held responsible. The player had no reason to suspect that their creation would be destroyed. No server is perfectly safe, but the notion that all are equally susceptible to hacking is foolish.
-Duxwing
If you need your mod showcased, my channel is the very best place: http://www.youtube.com/user/Pealanor?feature=mhee
Philosophy is a form of magic. Everyone makes a good point and that makes it difficult to fully agree with 1 person
(somewhat on topic)
Wouldn't it be possible for somebody to summarize everyone's views on the subject so that everyone can find a way to agree with each other completely?
I just don't like when people use hacks and such to grief. That's not really in the spirit of things :sad.gif:
The person that engages in behavior considered to be griefing does not create power for him or herself. The person who witnesses a particular action and responds by entering a hyper-emotional state to that action give the "griefer" this "power". I would say this relationship is a game constructed between two consenting individuals within Minecraft's world. Because Minecraft does not define the rules of this game, the griefing game is an illusion.
Griefers and the ragers (a more aggressive term than whiners) both recognize the behavior that constitutes "griefing". Both types of players know how to react in that kind of situation. Ragers rage, griefers grief. When a griefer is banned, the ragers win. When the rager quits or escalates to the point of confronting the griefer, the griefer wins.
There is no "power" involved in this relationship. How would you define power? Both people are sitting at their computers, clicking the mouse and pressing keys on their keyboard?
The rager has the most control (power, perhaps?) since that person's reaction determines the level of enjoyment the griefer experiences.
At least change the title of your thread.
TNT is a block included in Minecraft.
Blowing things up is an intended function of the game as much as building things is.
There were no rules to govern human behavior towards each other until we made them up, so maybe its time mojang came up with some rules for multiplayer
i dont see myself being able to win an argument against you, you are a better debater than i am, but i still disagree and i dont even play multiplayer
Actually laws have been passed internationally making hacking illegal. So the internet does have some set rules.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻) Follow me on twitter: @goanimals123