Most people against licensing the source code seem to miss one important aspect of modding. Sure, modding is all fine and dandy when people play by the rules, but people have and will create mods that act as system backdoors. Java is by no means an iron fortress, and giving people access to the source code for your own creation, only to hear that people are getting hacked due to mods they're using, isn't a very good thing for your business.
I'm perfectly fine with a licensing fee required to obtain the source code, but make it a small one. Hell, most game developers now-a-days don't even like modders, let alone embrace them, and here is a developer willing to give not just an SDK, but full-on source code, and people are still spitting in his face.
Talk about entitled.
If anything is going to ruin Minecraft, it is this loud vocal minority exemplified by this thread.
the fact that Notch wants to remove our abilities to mod the game as we wish
Nowhere in his post is this stated.
What he wants to do would add a more accessible feature that would make it easier for players to find mods to install as well as make modding easier for those who sign up.
Modders will still be able to make their mods outside the license deal, but would have to use the current system to do it.
Easier to find mods to install? Notch had plans to create a "mod marketplace" much like a TF2 hat shop or the Portal 2 DLC store in which people would buy and sell mods. How would you feel if you had to pay to gain the right to play and create mods? Sounds more like a Korean "Free-to-Play, Pay-to-Enjoy" MMO.
Not to mention that Mojang could lift your mod and code it into the full game at anytime, basically giving them a green-light to let the community build the game for them.
Unless I'm mistaken, users don't currently have access/permission to use the source code of the game, is that correct? They are still creating mods for the game, however, and they are free.
I would actually love to have a mod marketplace. A utility that makes finding mods easy and convenient for the user to discover, download, and install without having to hunt around for instructions on how to edit the minecraft.jar file, or using third-party utilities.
Did it ever occur to you that a marketplace could have free mods in it as well? My point is that if users are currently creating free mods, some requesting/allowing donations, why couldn't they continue to do so? What's stopping someone from placing a mod on the marketplace, and charging nothing for it, similar to a free App on the iPhone?
Modders that wish to access the source code, and essentially create more than just a plugin, or addition, but perhaps a whole new game, would have to pay a license fee to use it. I see nothing wrong there... Please correct if I'm wrong in believing that current mods do not modify the source code of the game. Giving someone access to the source code is essentially handing them the engine. Valve licenses it's Source Engine, but modders still create free modifications to Half-Life, Counter-Strike, and the like. Why is Mojang special? Why must they hand out their engine for free?
I do agree with you that it is unfair that Mojang may incorporate any mod at his whim. Mojang should at least have the common decency to request permission from the creator of the mod, similar to the Piston Mod. I believe the creator requested it be put in to the game. Some people appreciate that kind of recognition. Some people just want $$.
- People will still be able to create mods without a license (how the hell do you think it's being done now?)
- The key to this whole proposal by Notch is that by registering with Mojang, and signing a license, you receive access to Mojang's SVN repository. This means modders can keep their code up to date as Mojang makes changes, and potentially release their mods quickly after an update. The importance of this to modders is astounding.
- It's unlikely a license will be given to any shmuck with an internet access.
- It's a good alternative to creating an API for modders, which would take up a TON of resources. Want a new update? Nope, sorry, working on modding API.
- The "marketplace" will allow people to download secure mods. It's unlikely that Mojang would overlook the risk of somebody creating malicious mods, and a license agreement will allow them to take action against anybody that does so.
From my understanding, it's more than "pay/sign up to get source code". You need to sign a license (a legal document). We have no idea what is going to be on this license, or what the conditions are going to be... so why don't we complain when it actually comes to fruition, and isn't an idea/proposal mentioned over a blog?
I am really disappointed in Notch because he made it free now, which gives the access to the
source code, which can be used wrongly. All he wanted, was that the code wouldnt go waste, so
the People that really wants to help with Minecraft could actually get their mods ingame in a easier way.
But no, now we will get low quality mods, because all the stupid kids went to cry to his blog.
There's nothing wrong with open-source.
There is nothing wrong with open-source persay, but you're perfectly fine with someone with zero accountability (since there is no unified code repository) making a mod that slips code into Minecraft that contacts a server while exploiting faults in Java to then grant access to your system? Yeah, nothing wrong with that I suppose.
I don't understand the complaint. Notch had a plan in place to support modders so long as they paid a fee (and we have no idea how much that might have been but I'm guessing low.) He would give them more access to the game and potentially create a marketplace to display their wares instead of having them spread out to a dozen different sites on the Internet.
And yes Mojang would gain the rights to their work, but you know what, they're using his game and code. I don't see a problem with them retaining the rights to those works. The fact that Minecraft is supporting the modding community at all is a rarity in this day and age. And the fact that he considered trying to make money off of providing that support? Mojang is a business, and a small one still at that, I don't begrudge them trying to make a few extra bucks on the side when other games can charge 5 dollars for texture packs to change your char's appearance while he's charging 15 bucks for a game people have spent hundreds of hours playing.
Before you post: this thread was not written with the intention to complain about the speed/quality of updates to the game
The very fact that you need to add this disclaimer tells me that the content of your message can be viewed as complaining. And honestly, it probably is. But that's pretty much opinion.
but that was for the 3-month long "Ice Age" we had in updates.
Which is still far shorter than what you'll get with most AAA games. A lot of game studios simply stop updating at all after a couple patches. I'm glad he's still updating the game.
As soon as updates started rolling in regularly, Notch suddenly drops the bomb saying "Jens was moved to a different project," "Pistons are delayed (AGAIN)" and now this garbage with having to pay to mod the game?
They're a small studio with limited resources. You know how many code points they'll have to hook for a fully moddable game? A lot, considering the vast variety of mods available. Heck, it may even need a complete rewrite to make it properly moddable. I don't think they want to do that.
Notch has decided that he had plans to make US pay for a license to mod the game.
Only if you want the full source code under a strict license. Otherwise, you can do it as it's currently being done - by reverse engineering obfuscated code.
If that's not bad enough, he decided that Mojang would have full rights to incorporate our mods into the game at their whim.
Sounds like a great idea.
Which means: we pay Mojang to update THEIR game
Bought to you by the letters C, Y, N, I, C, A, and L.
All the updates you love? Minimaps, Mo' Creatures, Mo' Humans, Minecart Mania - gone, unless the mod developer would want to pay for Mojang to potentially take your work.
I'm sure free development via reverse engineering will continue. Besides, he changed his mind about paying for it. Although I worry about code leakage now. It may actually be a mistake to give away his code like this.
Notch may have revoked his last plan to commercialize Minecraft
As if that's a bad, horrible thing? He sells it, last I checked. It's already a commercial product. It ain't illegal to make money selling a product, or to provide some extra products and services for an extra fee.
Heck, that's the basis of economics: Buying and selling products and services. Been doing that since money was invented. Since when was making money such a horrible thing anyways? We can all do it, you know. If you want to sell stuff and provide some extra services for a fee to support the stuff, you could do that too.
I dunno, it just seems that sometimes anything related to money is instantly vilified, regardless of reason.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When all is said and done, Will you have said more than you have done?
What is it about minecraft that makes people so self-entitled? It says in bold text when you buy the game "Please note that when you buy the game, you're paying for the game as it is right now!". You are not paying any sort of subscription fee at all for updates to the game.
Most people whining about features and how notch sucks have already probably spent far more time playing minecraft than they have the average $50-$60 full retail game that usually gets NO updates save for some minor bug fixes. Is this really the message we want to send to game developers? "Stay involved with the community and frequently release free updates and the community turns into a cesspool of self-entitled whining and hatred directed at you"?
I am really disappointed in Notch because he made it free now, which gives the access to the
source code, which can be used wrongly. All he wanted, was that the code wouldnt go waste, so
the People that really wants to help with Minecraft could actually get their mods ingame in a easier way.
But no, now we will get low quality mods, because all the stupid kids went to cry to his blog.
There's nothing wrong with open-source.
Nerd quibble: Pay per view != Open Source
HOWEVER
Lots of open source software manages to implement highly reliable security measures despite having source code that is viewable by anyone at any time.
It's nice to see that the modding certificate will be free. Though I would have paid a small fee anyway, the fee would give people the wrong impression about Notch. I can understand that he wants quality stuff only, and a fee is a good way to help separate the good from the bad. I still think there should be some way to identify those modders that have a history of good contributions to inspire trust.
What is it about minecraft that makes people so self-entitled? It says in bold text when you buy the game "Please note that when you buy the game, you're paying for the game as it is right now!". You are not paying any sort of subscription fee at all for updates to the game.
Most people whining about features and how notch sucks have already probably spent far more time playing minecraft than they have the average $50-$60 full retail game that usually gets NO updates save for some minor bug fixes. Is this really the message we want to send to game developers? "Stay involved with the community and frequently release free updates and the community turns into a cesspool of self-entitled whining and hatred directed at you"?
It's like having one of those chinese carnival dragons and telling the guys at the back end to go make coffee, leaving the dragon to drag its ass around and mess up the carnival.
The thread wasn't written to discuss whether or not the license/API would be free, but to discuss the principle of buying the rights to mod a game. I'm really beginning to think most of you aren't reading the OP.
On a related note: why ask for the thread to be closed? Does it make you physically ill to see this thread on the front page?
It's like having one of those chinese carnival dragons and telling the guys at the back end to go make coffee, leaving the dragon to drag its ass around and mess up the carnival.
If you want to discuss the issue, then discuss it because you haven't addressed any of the issues others have presented but just keep repeating that people aren't reading the OP. People have pointed out already that even IF they went ahead with the plan, it was only going to mean that people who pay money would get direct access to the code, other people could still mod as much as they please. So explain now why this is a terrible system to offer a voluntary fee for people to gain access to an easier and more reliable form of modding, or choose to go ahead with the functional but slightly more difficult modding system as it was before. Because I see no downside to that system unless you're under the impression that buying the game does in fact give you the rights to the source code from the start, which I take it is not in fact the case with most games.
The thread wasn't written to discuss whether or not the license/API would be free, but to discuss the principle of buying the rights to mod a game. I'm really beginning to think most of you aren't reading the OP.
The problem is that people are focusing solely on the modding aspect of Notch's post. In order for modders to be able to keep their mods up to date with mojang's releases, they need to be able to work BEFORE the release is made. The only way to do this would be to have access to the repository which has all of minecraft's code, so they can properly see what's changed, and how to get it to work for their mod. Think of it like a dev-kit for a console.
Giving access to a repository is dangerous. It will give somebody the ability to get ALL the code for minecraft, and once they have it on their own computer, they can do whatever they want to it. That's probably why Mojang wanted to charge a fee for access/license, to weed out possibly malicious people.
I think it might have been a bit premature for Notch to post about it though, as he exact details of the license aren't decided... so many people can make assumptions about it.
Also... one thing which people REALLY need to understand. It's more than just "I PAID MONEY, GIVE ME CODE"... there's a LICENSE which you have to agree to and sign. If you don't, chances are you're not getting the code... the license is the important thing here, not the price.
I have better things to do than interfere with a man' life.
Especially Notch. He's a programmer, he made a game , and I like it. I play it because I like it, and Notch doesn't listen to people, so I won't bother him.
Get a life up and running. You must have better things to do than worry about a man living in Sweden, doing a pet coding project, and aiming to become a rich Valve-like company that releases weird games that we still keep buying.
First, I'm not sure I'd call posts on a message board interfering with a man's life. Especially since the man in question is not known to read these boards. But if you do consider that to be interfering, then you clearly do not have anything better to do, since you're on the boards, doing it.
Can we stop pretending that browsing a forums means a person doesn't have a life? It's not exactly an involved, time-intensive hobby. And it's not a useful assumption to bring up, anyway. Either browsing forums means you don't have a life, which means you don't either and are just being hypocritical, or it doesn't mean that, and you just really don't have any better way to articulate "I disagree with your ideas in a way that makes me want to attack you, personally, via text."
Mod edit: User warned for flame
I'm perfectly fine with a licensing fee required to obtain the source code, but make it a small one. Hell, most game developers now-a-days don't even like modders, let alone embrace them, and here is a developer willing to give not just an SDK, but full-on source code, and people are still spitting in his face.
Talk about entitled.
If anything is going to ruin Minecraft, it is this loud vocal minority exemplified by this thread.
Unless I'm mistaken, users don't currently have access/permission to use the source code of the game, is that correct? They are still creating mods for the game, however, and they are free.
I would actually love to have a mod marketplace. A utility that makes finding mods easy and convenient for the user to discover, download, and install without having to hunt around for instructions on how to edit the minecraft.jar file, or using third-party utilities.
Did it ever occur to you that a marketplace could have free mods in it as well? My point is that if users are currently creating free mods, some requesting/allowing donations, why couldn't they continue to do so? What's stopping someone from placing a mod on the marketplace, and charging nothing for it, similar to a free App on the iPhone?
Modders that wish to access the source code, and essentially create more than just a plugin, or addition, but perhaps a whole new game, would have to pay a license fee to use it. I see nothing wrong there... Please correct if I'm wrong in believing that current mods do not modify the source code of the game. Giving someone access to the source code is essentially handing them the engine. Valve licenses it's Source Engine, but modders still create free modifications to Half-Life, Counter-Strike, and the like. Why is Mojang special? Why must they hand out their engine for free?
I do agree with you that it is unfair that Mojang may incorporate any mod at his whim. Mojang should at least have the common decency to request permission from the creator of the mod, similar to the Piston Mod. I believe the creator requested it be put in to the game. Some people appreciate that kind of recognition. Some people just want $$.
It's super effective!
Pointless thread has fainted!
This is why i love MC fourm's moderators
- The key to this whole proposal by Notch is that by registering with Mojang, and signing a license, you receive access to Mojang's SVN repository. This means modders can keep their code up to date as Mojang makes changes, and potentially release their mods quickly after an update. The importance of this to modders is astounding.
- It's unlikely a license will be given to any shmuck with an internet access.
- It's a good alternative to creating an API for modders, which would take up a TON of resources. Want a new update? Nope, sorry, working on modding API.
- The "marketplace" will allow people to download secure mods. It's unlikely that Mojang would overlook the risk of somebody creating malicious mods, and a license agreement will allow them to take action against anybody that does so.
From my understanding, it's more than "pay/sign up to get source code". You need to sign a license (a legal document). We have no idea what is going to be on this license, or what the conditions are going to be... so why don't we complain when it actually comes to fruition, and isn't an idea/proposal mentioned over a blog?
Nope, I don't think you are
That means I talk down to people
There is nothing wrong with open-source persay, but you're perfectly fine with someone with zero accountability (since there is no unified code repository) making a mod that slips code into Minecraft that contacts a server while exploiting faults in Java to then grant access to your system? Yeah, nothing wrong with that I suppose.
If he will, i promise to leave this community.
Supporting:
☺
And yes Mojang would gain the rights to their work, but you know what, they're using his game and code. I don't see a problem with them retaining the rights to those works. The fact that Minecraft is supporting the modding community at all is a rarity in this day and age. And the fact that he considered trying to make money off of providing that support? Mojang is a business, and a small one still at that, I don't begrudge them trying to make a few extra bucks on the side when other games can charge 5 dollars for texture packs to change your char's appearance while he's charging 15 bucks for a game people have spent hundreds of hours playing.
Yes , Minecraft lost it's fun taste.
Eh, good luck with that one.
The very fact that you need to add this disclaimer tells me that the content of your message can be viewed as complaining. And honestly, it probably is. But that's pretty much opinion.
Which is still far shorter than what you'll get with most AAA games. A lot of game studios simply stop updating at all after a couple patches. I'm glad he's still updating the game.
They're a small studio with limited resources. You know how many code points they'll have to hook for a fully moddable game? A lot, considering the vast variety of mods available. Heck, it may even need a complete rewrite to make it properly moddable. I don't think they want to do that.
Only if you want the full source code under a strict license. Otherwise, you can do it as it's currently being done - by reverse engineering obfuscated code.
Sounds like a great idea.
Bought to you by the letters C, Y, N, I, C, A, and L.
I'm sure free development via reverse engineering will continue. Besides, he changed his mind about paying for it. Although I worry about code leakage now. It may actually be a mistake to give away his code like this.
As if that's a bad, horrible thing? He sells it, last I checked. It's already a commercial product. It ain't illegal to make money selling a product, or to provide some extra products and services for an extra fee.
Heck, that's the basis of economics: Buying and selling products and services. Been doing that since money was invented. Since when was making money such a horrible thing anyways? We can all do it, you know. If you want to sell stuff and provide some extra services for a fee to support the stuff, you could do that too.
I dunno, it just seems that sometimes anything related to money is instantly vilified, regardless of reason.
Most people whining about features and how notch sucks have already probably spent far more time playing minecraft than they have the average $50-$60 full retail game that usually gets NO updates save for some minor bug fixes. Is this really the message we want to send to game developers? "Stay involved with the community and frequently release free updates and the community turns into a cesspool of self-entitled whining and hatred directed at you"?
Nerd quibble: Pay per view != Open Source
HOWEVER
Lots of open source software manages to implement highly reliable security measures despite having source code that is viewable by anyone at any time.
You didn't read the OP, did you?
Steam ... SergeantLeper
Supporting:
☺
The thread wasn't written to discuss whether or not the license/API would be free, but to discuss the principle of buying the rights to mod a game. I'm really beginning to think most of you aren't reading the OP.
On a related note: why ask for the thread to be closed? Does it make you physically ill to see this thread on the front page?
Steam ... SergeantLeper
The problem is that people are focusing solely on the modding aspect of Notch's post. In order for modders to be able to keep their mods up to date with mojang's releases, they need to be able to work BEFORE the release is made. The only way to do this would be to have access to the repository which has all of minecraft's code, so they can properly see what's changed, and how to get it to work for their mod. Think of it like a dev-kit for a console.
Giving access to a repository is dangerous. It will give somebody the ability to get ALL the code for minecraft, and once they have it on their own computer, they can do whatever they want to it. That's probably why Mojang wanted to charge a fee for access/license, to weed out possibly malicious people.
I think it might have been a bit premature for Notch to post about it though, as he exact details of the license aren't decided... so many people can make assumptions about it.
Also... one thing which people REALLY need to understand. It's more than just "I PAID MONEY, GIVE ME CODE"... there's a LICENSE which you have to agree to and sign. If you don't, chances are you're not getting the code... the license is the important thing here, not the price.
First, I'm not sure I'd call posts on a message board interfering with a man's life. Especially since the man in question is not known to read these boards. But if you do consider that to be interfering, then you clearly do not have anything better to do, since you're on the boards, doing it.
Can we stop pretending that browsing a forums means a person doesn't have a life? It's not exactly an involved, time-intensive hobby. And it's not a useful assumption to bring up, anyway. Either browsing forums means you don't have a life, which means you don't either and are just being hypocritical, or it doesn't mean that, and you just really don't have any better way to articulate "I disagree with your ideas in a way that makes me want to attack you, personally, via text."