"Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later" - Brook's Law
Even if Notch took all the money he made and threw it at people, things still wouldn't change immediately. It might even change slower. If you knew anything about programming, you'd know that. Here's another wikipedia article for you:
You're suffering from The Dunning-Kruger Effect. As someone who hasn't made Minecraft, you have no idea how difficult it is. At all. You have so little idea how difficult it is, you're incapable of even realizing how difficult it is. You're a child looking at a burning train derailment saying "Just push it to make it go".
"But atiaxi!" You say. "I'm a super-awesome programmer and Notch is stupid and dumb and I could do better in a weekend!"
Then shut up and do it. Otherwise, just shut up.
Or, to quote the City of Heroes forums (you know, a game where people pay the same amount you did, only monthly, and still don't gripe as loud):
DOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
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This forum ticked me off so much I went to random.org and set my password to something I'll never be able to remember, then switched my password reset to a throwaway.
Well, we frankly are Notch's testers. It's beta, we're beta testing. He's generous enough to let us play when it's not finished yet. He's counting on you to tell him the glitches because he wants to give you more content and fix those bugs. You guys have more free time than him, so you are more abled to find bugs. If he spent more of his time playing and finding bugs, we probably wouldn't be in a position like we are now. He might not have released the Nether because he was testing and we would lose it, putting other updates behind schedule when he fixes the Nether, etc. He probably doesn't want those mod makers to help because he's really the only one with a good idea for the game. I think he likes it that they're separate, allowing players to customize their game the way they want it, not have it be forced upon them.
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FIND DUNGEON. TURN PEACEFUL ON.
"Is mayonnaise an instrument?"
I understand what the OP is saying, and agree that many things (especially QA) could be done better.
That said, I still have some faith in Notch. Considering, e.g., this blog post, he seems to be learning from his mistakes. I suspect Notch simply wasn't prepared for Minecraft to get as popular as it did, and that the current issues are just a phase until he gets used to it. Only time will tell whether my suspicions were well-founded.
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Disclaimer: user may not actually be apathetic. ApatheticMods (Toggle Blocks, Secret Switches, Sign Edit)
"Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later" - Brook's Law
Even if Notch took all the money he made and threw it at people, things still wouldn't change immediately. It might even change slower. If you knew anything about programming, you'd know that. Here's another wikipedia article for you:
You're suffering from The Dunning-Kruger Effect. As someone who hasn't made Minecraft, you have no idea how difficult it is. At all. You have so little idea how difficult it is, you're incapable of even realizing how difficult it is. You're a child looking at a burning train derailment saying "Just push it to make it go".
As a programmer who has no basis upon which I could compare myself to any other programmer, I would just like to point out misconceptions in atiaxi's response, because I feel it's hurtful to all programmers, and our profession in general.
I'm not going to elaborate much on how Brooks Law doesn't even apply to Minecraft, but I urge and encourage anyone who has any shadow of doubt about that to keep in mind that it was entirely developed by a single person, and actually read the Wikipedia article on Brooks Law with *understanding*.
The more glaring fallacy hides in atiaxi bringing up this Dunning-Kruger Effect, which first and foremost assumes an "unskilled" person. Now programmers are not Wizards... as magically at we may seem. We have a good understanding of how software works, and unless it's something that's groundbreaking in it's matter (as in never done before) or execution (as in say.. never done so efficiently before), we have a very good idea about the amount of effort something should take. So either atiaxi assumes that OP has no programming knowledge, or is ironically, himself a victim of Dunning-Kruger Effect, as someone who while unskilled in the magicks of programming, makes an assertion suggesting that Minecraft is somehow coded in a way no other programmer could even try to fathom. Which is simply not true.
Looking at Notch's ToDo-List thing and GetSatisfaction, he is listening to players to some extent with having us support ideas on GS, but he's doing technical work that is slow and doing barely any content updates.
While I know Beta is for bugs, he's going to start losing player base if no content is added, simply because of how unique this situation is. Indie games rarely get this big.
He needs to hire more people to work on content and/or work with the Modders who are working for free out of there own time to make amazing things. Ex. Mo's creatures.
"Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later" - Brook's Law
Even if Notch took all the money he made and threw it at people, things still wouldn't change immediately. It might even change slower. If you knew anything about programming, you'd know that. Here's another wikipedia article for you:
You're suffering from The Dunning-Kruger Effect. As someone who hasn't made Minecraft, you have no idea how difficult it is. At all. You have so little idea how difficult it is, you're incapable of even realizing how difficult it is. You're a child looking at a burning train derailment saying "Just push it to make it go".
As a programmer who has no basis upon which I could compare myself to any other programmer, I would just like to point out misconceptions in atiaxi's response, because I feel it's hurtful to all programmers, and our profession in general.
I'm not going to elaborate much on how Brooks Law doesn't even apply to Minecraft, but I urge and encourage anyone who has any shadow of doubt about that to keep in mind that it was entirely developed by a single person, and actually read the Wikipedia article on Brooks Law with *understanding*.
The more glaring fallacy hides in atiaxi bringing up this Dunning-Kruger Effect, which first and foremost assumes an "unskilled" person. Now programmers are not Wizards... as magically at we may seem. We have a good understanding of how software works, and unless it's something that's groundbreaking in it's matter (as in never done before) or execution (as in say.. never done so efficiently before), we have a very good idea about the amount of effort something should take. So either atiaxi assumes that OP has no programming knowledge, or is ironically, himself a victim of Dunning-Kruger Effect, as someone who while unskilled in the magicks of programming, makes an assertion suggesting that Minecraft is somehow coded in a way no other programmer could even try to fathom. Which is simply not true.
TL;DR
One person working on a game = Not enough
30 People working on a game hired over a few months = Much better
30 People working on a game hired in one day = Counterproductive
100 People working on a game hired in a short time = Counterproductive
Now, please understand, I am NOT raging. I am NOT qq'ing. I love MC, and in 3 months have probably spent over 300 hours on it (at least) enjoying it greatly. My views here are purely speculation, and speculative fears of what COULD happen, and what I do not wish to happen (of course).
Now, let's be blunt. The game since the halloween update has been in all senses, a mess. The lag, the light bug, leaf decay (which is finally working, yay!), and all that fun stuff. Not only this, we basically got given half-assed updated. Nether! Cool! Oh, right, forgot to tell you guys at the last very second, the Nether won't work on SMP and yea... I MIGHT add it in before release of the game. Or the removal of torch decay, and mob depth difficulty, and hasn't been heard about since.
Then there's all the updates as of recent (which is to bring the game to beta, a more stable version) and instead of doing this, it caused a whole slurry of problems and bugs, so many of which if you simply played for 20 seconds, you would SEE these bugs. This HORRIBLE (non-existent) lack of testing of Notch's own work has really put me in doubt in his capabilities. I am not insulting him, bugs will happen, it is beta, etc etc, yada yada.
But come on... he does not test his work for 5 minutes, or get another staff member to do so, so he can fix these issues right there instead of releasing a buggy, screwed up version that will just **** off 800,000+ people because HE was too lazy to test the damn game for five minutes. That's a terrible way to run a game such as minecraft, which is getting to the point of my post.
Notch can't handle it. He built minecraft as a hobby, never expecting it to become huge. He expected to sit back and chill, do his thing at his pace and fix his bugs as he went along sharing it with a few thousand people who played, nothing serious... and now it's a massive multi-million dollar business, and he is still treating it like just that: a hobby.
I ask you now, why is it when he has accumulated over THIRTEEN MILLION DOLLARS(!), he has no other programmers? Why is the only other programmer he has hired, working on ANOTHER GAME entirely, when Minecraft clearly is the money maker?
I have been looking at the mods like Mo's creatures, and various other mods, and go 'holy ***t these people are f'ing brilliant! Minecraft would be amazing if Notch worked with them!' but no. I have seen modders openly offer to work with him and provide him their work, to help him without any cost or such, saving him so much time and effort, and making minecraft so much more magically, yet... he refuses. From what I have seen of his views it's basically like this.
'No. This is MY Game, I want to do everything MY way, and no one else can touch it!' and I don't mean that childishly. I mean he hasn't, or rather won't realize he is hurting his game by refusing. I understand SOME mods' would not work at all. But things like hey0 have proven INCREDIBLY popular because it OFFERS versatility, it offers features people yearn for, but are not game altering.
I ask you why... why does he not have at least 2-3 programmers working on minecraft while he directs their efforts? He has the money. Even at say 50,000$ a year each, that's not even TICKLING his funds at all...
I see this ending in three ways:
- Notch snaps out of this, and realizes finally this is a big thing, he has to take a step back and prioritize himself, and his way of running Minecraft.
- He continues this poor, sloppy path and we continue to hope he stops and improves.
- Minecraft is sold to a big company, who then turns on us and stuffs fees down our throats for 'expansions', and commercials minecraft, ruining the charm it once had.
And yes, I know the 'fanboi's' will come screaming 'OMG, LIAR, WHINER, ETC ETC ETC' and kiss notch's ass like it's gold, but all I ask is everyone who reads step back, look at this scenario, and think about it logically, understand where my fear is coming from. I will continue to hold my hope this is just that, a fear and not a reality to come.
P.S
Sorry for the messy write, kind of a off the top of my head slap-down :tongue.gif:
Dude, just appreciate the game. It's still great, is it not?
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I USED TO BE EPICJOE! I HAVE A dA! epikjoe . deviantart. com And remember, I KNOW don't click this link...
I was just about writing a post like that...
I see what you mean and understand you.
Ive never seen so much potential to a game as MineCraft has, and it seems Notch doing nothing about it.
I understand that its Christmas but couldnt he even write something about it in his blog?
I realy hope that Notch will make all these new updates that will both fix bugs and add new things to the game, but I start to think that it will never happen.
Notch, please surprise us for good :smile.gif:
We believe in you!
I agree as well, I feel Notch just isn't professional. He talks about playing black ops on his twitter, he always put things off until the next day and always gives us false hope of things to come.
I read this whole forum and every single post in it. I just hope Notch pulls things together, or else I'll have to play my ps3 full time, because as of now, nothing is getting done.
I've had all the same thoughts, Sabby, and yes you're basically right, and we can only hope that Notch will eventually pull everything together (I'm sure with enough time anything is possible, unless he just cuts and runs)
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BETA
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Dude, just appreciate the game. It's still great, is it not?
I would not advise anyone to ever stop thinking critically about anything
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BETA
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
I'm not going to elaborate much on how Brooks Law doesn't even apply to Minecraft, but I urge and encourage anyone who has any shadow of doubt about that to keep in mind that it was entirely developed by a single person, and actually read the Wikipedia article on Brooks Law with *understanding*.
Okay:
Quote from Wikipedia »
- It takes some time for the people added to a project to become productive.
and
- Communication overheads increase as the number of people increases.
While the second point obviously is less problematic when going from a one-man job, the first one still has full effect. My point was simply that throwing more people at the problem is not always a solution and even when it is it's not an immediate solution.
Quote from Quackor »
atiaxi assumes that OP has no programming knowledge
I'll admit that I was coming at it from that angle.
Quote from Quackor »
Minecraft is somehow coded in a way no other programmer could even try to fathom. Which is simply not true.
Well naturally. The point I was trying to get there was that even if you are a programmer, if you haven't tried to make a Minecraft you have no idea what's involved. You could be the best damn database guy on earth and you'd still be way off.
Quote from Quackor »
[W]e have a very good idea about the amount of effort something should take.
I may be giving away a trade secret here, but no, we really don't. That article's about the length one shop went through to try to get correct estimates out of its developers. In the end they have to build a project designed to compensate for the developer's tendency to constantly and consistently underestimate the deadlines.
Half the angst on these forums are probably from that last fact alone :smile.gif:
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This forum ticked me off so much I went to random.org and set my password to something I'll never be able to remember, then switched my password reset to a throwaway.
Minecraft was not entirely developed by one guy, will people ever stop saying this!? Here are the (old) credits from the site itself:
Minecraft is developed by:
Game design, programming, graphics: Markus Persson ("Notch")
Music and sounds: Daniel Rosenfeld ("C418")
Ingame artwork: Kristoffer Zetterstrand
Additional programming: Paul Spooner
Since then, Jeb, Jakob, Daniel (Kaplan), Junkboy and Carl have been added to the list of people who've worked on the game in some way. AT LEAST seven people have been involved in the development of Minecraft, those people being Notch, Jakob, Jeb, Junkboy, C418, Kristoffer Zetterstrand, and Paul Spooner.
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BETA
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
I agree partially with the OP except in one department. We paid money at a discounted price for the final finished version of the game. The fact that we can currently play is a courtesy extended to us for paying for the final version of the game. The game is currently in BETA which means yes we are playtesters even though we paid money, the money we paid is only for the finished version of the game. We paid money knowing full well that there was no concrete release schedule or release date set in stone currently because as was said by NOTCH this is his hobby. We paid for the final release not for a share or shares of his company, therefore we have no right to tell him when it is to be completed or who he should hire. if you wish to have a say as to what you would like done or tell him to get more programmers than become an investor in his company. More than likely he has a good reason as to why he has not hired any other programmer as of this date. Be concerned when he stops saying anything and no updates are produced.
umm, when you purchase a game, no matter the quality or level of completion, you are INVESTING into that company. when you buy a product, such as toothpaste, you are INVESTING within that toothpaste company for them to continue to make the toothpaste you just bought. just sayin.
if we go that route, since the latest beta patch, notch has made half a million dollars...thats $500,000 towards another update? that we still haven't gotten >.> pretty expensive update if you ask me.
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Quote from jon99977 »
I got all my friends to play minecraft.
Which means I got 0 people to play.
Quote from Vilborg »
MY friends actually realize that real life has better graphics than any game, and that gameplay is infinitely better. Thus they all play Minecraft.
With just five easy minutes, he could test his own product, but he doesn't.
You think he hits F5 and then yells "It compiles, ship it!"
You don't think that maybe, just maybe, debugging is harder work than you think?
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This forum ticked me off so much I went to random.org and set my password to something I'll never be able to remember, then switched my password reset to a throwaway.
Dude, just appreciate the game. It's still great, is it not?
It is. However, Notch's quality of work lately isn't. He let the success get to his head. We used to have amazing updates when the game was small, but now, the last good update we got was the Halloween one.
I lol'd. Thanks for that.
Even if Notch took all the money he made and threw it at people, things still wouldn't change immediately. It might even change slower. If you knew anything about programming, you'd know that. Here's another wikipedia article for you:
You're suffering from The Dunning-Kruger Effect. As someone who hasn't made Minecraft, you have no idea how difficult it is. At all. You have so little idea how difficult it is, you're incapable of even realizing how difficult it is. You're a child looking at a burning train derailment saying "Just push it to make it go".
"But atiaxi!" You say. "I'm a super-awesome programmer and Notch is stupid and dumb and I could do better in a weekend!"
Then shut up and do it. Otherwise, just shut up.
Or, to quote the City of Heroes forums (you know, a game where people pay the same amount you did, only monthly, and still don't gripe as loud):
DOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
"Is mayonnaise an instrument?"
That said, I still have some faith in Notch. Considering, e.g., this blog post, he seems to be learning from his mistakes. I suspect Notch simply wasn't prepared for Minecraft to get as popular as it did, and that the current issues are just a phase until he gets used to it. Only time will tell whether my suspicions were well-founded.
ApatheticMods (Toggle Blocks, Secret Switches, Sign Edit)
MineScience - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=166560
Dragonator - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=141803
Sand Skiffs - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=233346
As a programmer who has no basis upon which I could compare myself to any other programmer, I would just like to point out misconceptions in atiaxi's response, because I feel it's hurtful to all programmers, and our profession in general.
I'm not going to elaborate much on how Brooks Law doesn't even apply to Minecraft, but I urge and encourage anyone who has any shadow of doubt about that to keep in mind that it was entirely developed by a single person, and actually read the Wikipedia article on Brooks Law with *understanding*.
The more glaring fallacy hides in atiaxi bringing up this Dunning-Kruger Effect, which first and foremost assumes an "unskilled" person. Now programmers are not Wizards... as magically at we may seem. We have a good understanding of how software works, and unless it's something that's groundbreaking in it's matter (as in never done before) or execution (as in say.. never done so efficiently before), we have a very good idea about the amount of effort something should take. So either atiaxi assumes that OP has no programming knowledge, or is ironically, himself a victim of Dunning-Kruger Effect, as someone who while unskilled in the magicks of programming, makes an assertion suggesting that Minecraft is somehow coded in a way no other programmer could even try to fathom. Which is simply not true.
Looking at Notch's ToDo-List thing and GetSatisfaction, he is listening to players to some extent with having us support ideas on GS, but he's doing technical work that is slow and doing barely any content updates.
While I know Beta is for bugs, he's going to start losing player base if no content is added, simply because of how unique this situation is. Indie games rarely get this big.
He needs to hire more people to work on content and/or work with the Modders who are working for free out of there own time to make amazing things. Ex. Mo's creatures.
TL;DR
One person working on a game = Not enough
30 People working on a game hired over a few months = Much better
30 People working on a game hired in one day = Counterproductive
100 People working on a game hired in a short time = Counterproductive
Dude, just appreciate the game. It's still great, is it not?
don't click this link...
I see what you mean and understand you.
Ive never seen so much potential to a game as MineCraft has, and it seems Notch doing nothing about it.
I understand that its Christmas but couldnt he even write something about it in his blog?
I realy hope that Notch will make all these new updates that will both fix bugs and add new things to the game, but I start to think that it will never happen.
Notch, please surprise us for good :smile.gif:
We believe in you!
as for the end product not looking like we want? one word...MODS.
just get us to that point, we'll take care of the rest notch.
I read this whole forum and every single post in it. I just hope Notch pulls things together, or else I'll have to play my ps3 full time, because as of now, nothing is getting done.
Well, time for red dead redemption :S/
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
I would not advise anyone to ever stop thinking critically about anything
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Okay:
While the second point obviously is less problematic when going from a one-man job, the first one still has full effect. My point was simply that throwing more people at the problem is not always a solution and even when it is it's not an immediate solution.
I'll admit that I was coming at it from that angle.
Well naturally. The point I was trying to get there was that even if you are a programmer, if you haven't tried to make a Minecraft you have no idea what's involved. You could be the best damn database guy on earth and you'd still be way off.
I may be giving away a trade secret here, but no, we really don't. That article's about the length one shop went through to try to get correct estimates out of its developers. In the end they have to build a project designed to compensate for the developer's tendency to constantly and consistently underestimate the deadlines.
Half the angst on these forums are probably from that last fact alone :smile.gif:
Since then, Jeb, Jakob, Daniel (Kaplan), Junkboy and Carl have been added to the list of people who've worked on the game in some way. AT LEAST seven people have been involved in the development of Minecraft, those people being Notch, Jakob, Jeb, Junkboy, C418, Kristoffer Zetterstrand, and Paul Spooner.
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
if we go that route, since the latest beta patch, notch has made half a million dollars...thats $500,000 towards another update? that we still haven't gotten >.> pretty expensive update if you ask me.
You think he hits F5 and then yells "It compiles, ship it!"
You don't think that maybe, just maybe, debugging is harder work than you think?
It is. However, Notch's quality of work lately isn't. He let the success get to his head. We used to have amazing updates when the game was small, but now, the last good update we got was the Halloween one.
MineScience - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=166560
Dragonator - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=141803
Sand Skiffs - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=233346