Unfortunately, it’s a bit tricky to get the custom textures installed, but this mod has convinced me that I need to add the ability for servers to download a custom texture pack to the client in Minecraft.
This infuriates me.
To quote myself:
Quote from Zuriki »
@xnotch ur new idea enrages me with heat of a billion suns. I dont want to join a game to be greeted with custom texture child porn. eg. /b/
Come on, we all know something like this is going to happen. If not childporn, porn nonetheless.
I did a mockup image (slightly nfsw, though everything is hidden) to demonstrate what might happen.
I darkened the background to sort of show that it's not valid in the context of all the other stuf wouldn't be there, it would just be what is on the flat surface.
It's not limited to porn either, gore, shock images, it's all possible and it WILL happen.
Firstly, to preemtively counter the arguments.
I don't play on public servers, my thoughts lie with the children who play this game, and the adults who think the game is safe and let their children play. My points are:
a) No child should be exposed to indecent images ESPECIALLY when it's not of their free will
:cool.gif: Nobody, including adults and teens, should ever be exposed to indecent images without free will.
c) If you play on public servers a lot, it's not really avoidable in any sense without stopping playing.
d) It draws bad publicity to Minecraft if all the servers going up are filled with indecent content.
e) A clientside option to enable and disable the content is not enough. It only takes a second for any child to disable the protection. No parental lock can be used because the parent would have to review Minecraft again to ensure that the parent locked the option off with a password which can't be preset
E: Since INVERTIN blatantly ignored this entire section I have enlarged it.
I really want Notch to thoroughly think about the potential for disaster to come from this.
On a much lesser scale, I can see horrible texture packages being used making the game awful to play.
I don't personally care which way it goes (so long as there is an option to disable it) because I won't use the feature and I will have it disabled at all times because 90% of the texture packs imo are horrible. I just don't want the game to blindly wander into a potentially awful pitfall. Not to mention it would be the blame on Notch for providing a program with no beforehand warning of potentially 18+ content and he could be taken to court for it if a parent finds out. It wouldn't be the sole fault of the server owner for exposing children to indecent content.
The ground is filled with landmines, tread carefully. VERY carefully.
Quote from Gyro »
...Zuriki sounds like he'd be opposed to any and all graphical content being downloaded from servers to clients...
Quote from Zuriki »
I'm saying PERSONALLY I don't want to be forced to play the game using someone elses texture pack if I don't like it. To quote Notch:
Quote from Notch »
Source
...who am I do say how people should play the game...
It works both ways, I'm not telling you NO YOU CANT HAVE THIS FEATURE AT ALL!!! >:sad.gif: At the same time I don't want to be told YOU CANT NOT HAVE THIS FEATURE IF YOU DONT WANT IT!!! >:sad.gif:
I agree that having custom textures be downloaded automatically from servers is a terrible idea (sounds like an opportunity for horrendous server-griefing) but Zuriki sounds like he'd be opposed to any and all graphical content being downloaded from servers to clients, without which mods would be rather ****ed.
I mean, we already have custom skins, so...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The inquisitors were torturing Harry.
First, Ignatius used the rock.
Then Billy asked Harry if he wanted to read his BDSM blog. Harry was so surprised that his pants flew right off. He was wearing women's underpants. The inquisitors were wearing them, too.
As someone who makes texture packs, I have to say I would dearly love an easier way to apply them. However I agree that it shouldn't be automatically loaded from the server. My personal ideal solution would be a config file that let you specify urls for the images.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tis far better to be a witty fool than a foolish wit.
If there was no potential for griefing. Go for it, but this is a minefield for horrific griefing and potential court cases about providing a 18+ service to minors. Or enabling people to expose indecent images to minors without prior warning etc.
I'm saying PERSONALLY I don't want to be forced to play the game using someone elses texture pack if I don't like it. To quote Notch:
Quote from Notch »
Source
...who am I do say how people should play the game...
It works both ways, I'm not telling you NO YOU CANT HAVE THIS FEATURE AT ALL!!! > At the same time I don't want to be told YOU CANT NOT HAVE THIS FEATURE IF YOU DONT WANT IT!!! >
@invertin: The server provides the texture with the child porn, the image might be unclear on that. Also, your last comment shows you obviously paid not attention to the post at all. CHILDREN PLAY THE GAME, WOULD YOU EXPOSE YOUR CHILD TO PORN!? No, of course not, it would be both illegal, morally wrong and disgusting. I don't care if I walk into a server full of porn or child porn, I'd be sickened by the state of the game and would actually probably be forced by my morals to report the game to the authorities. Just because I don't think it's right that young children play the game and could be exposed to indecent nature.
Always expect the worst in people when dealing with situations like this.
pr0n issues aside, I have a few textures I run simply because I like the look of them better and I'd hate to have the server override my own preferences.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tis far better to be a witty fool than a foolish wit.
e) A clientside option to enable and disable the content is not enough. It only takes a second for any child to disable the protection. No parental lock can be used because the parent would have to review Minecraft again to ensure that the parent locked the option off with a password which can't be preset
E: Since INVERTIN blatantly ignored this entire section I have enlarged it.
Ironic, it actually specifically mentions YOU not reading. And you did it again.
I have to say, I agree completely with this. When Notch first talked about making servers able to have custom textures, I thought it was a great idea. After reading this, not so much. I hope Notch sees this thread. Or responds to you on Twitter.
I was talking with a friend and here is a potential scenario which would allow Notch to be excluded from the most legal threats.
Notch implements this system, he puts a portal on the front page saying "The game contains potentially 18+ material" and various disclaimers about the content of the servers. Kids stop buying the game because it would probably land them in trouble, parents don't buy the game anymore for their kids. Other parents get refunds because of the warning. Kids get refunds to get out of trouble. Notch loses €1000s and 100s of purchases a day. If not all.
So whilst the features has pros, the cons are costly - either financially costly, or legally costly. Whilst the pros are you get themed servers and... um... no, wait that's it.
Zuriki, you're missing the point a little bit. With a limited 16x16 texture on most blocks, there would be few textures that could hold it. Paintings could happen, but those are crazy big textures.
And besides, if somebody is playing minecraft, why would they play on a server that's covered in porn, anyways?
Although I can see this being a major problem, it would support mods even better. And while I cannot see things being impossible to view, either. Perhaps a master squad of mods to check textures to make sure they don't have porn in them? That wouldn't be a hard thing to do, it'd just require a quick looking at a bunch of images and reseting them to the original.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Tell me this, when in the world did virtual posts gain the ability to crap?" -Monork2 on ROBLOX.com
It's a completely terrible idea. If I want to use the texture for (just an example) Portal, I'll download it. If they force me to use a server's texture, I'll grief every server that uses an ugly one.
And I'm not even a griefer.
And mrfatcat, any sort of paintings would be a problem. Each piece of the painting would render one block hideous and unusable in normal structures. If you think it'd be even slightly okay to force that upon people, you're delusional.
I suspect an "Online interactions are not rated bla bla bal" msg would suffice. That and once we have real verification in, he could hopefully shut down any servers that were doing horrible things. (Just put a No hosting skins that are not kid friendly in the TOS for running the server.)
As for 16x16 being a limitation. The art for the in-game pictures you can hang for decoration is more than large enough for any kind of detail you would want. Just put a nice 'gallery' near the spawn if you want to inflict it on people.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tis far better to be a witty fool than a foolish wit.
I wouldn't even care if the server was using a normal retexture. I want to use what I like an am used to, not what the server host wants to crap onto everyone else.
EDIT: The only way this could be okay is if the player had an option to revert to their normal texture. It would be convenient when joining a server like (just an example again) the Portal one, but there's no way I'd play if they let all of the hosts assign me a texture to use.
Zuriki, you're missing the point a little bit. With a limited 16x16 texture on most blocks, there would be few textures that could hold it. Paintings could happen, but those are crazy big textures.
And besides, if somebody is playing minecraft, why would they play on a server that's covered in porn, anyways?
Although I can see this being a major problem, it would support mods even better. And while I cannot see things being impossible to view, either. Perhaps a master squad of mods to check textures to make sure they don't have porn in them? That wouldn't be a hard thing to do, it'd just require a quick looking at a bunch of images and reseting them to the original.
Multiple blocks put together, larger textures are possible, they don't know it's covered in porn til they get there, server hoster put a box around the spawn covered in large porn images.
Your post hold no solutions and all your problems are so obvious to counter.
Quote from The_Fool76 »
Just put a No hosting skins that are not kid friendly in the TOS for running the server.
As for 16x16 being a limitation. The art for the in-game pictures you can hang for decoration is more than large enough for any kind of detail you would want. Just put a nice 'gallery' near the spawn if you want to inflict it on people.
I'm sure it's illegal to post child porn on to 4chan... hm, need I explain?
Textures are not limited to 16x16 we already have 256x256 textures per block and Notch is going to support these without hacks (he already said).
Quote from A.I. »
EDIT: The only way this could be okay is if the player had an option to revert to their normal texture. It would be convenient when joining a server like (just an example again) the Portal one, but there's no way I'd play if they let all of the hosts assign me a texture to use.
The option is not enough, it takes a kid a couple of clicks to use let the client download the servers texture (and I'm sure kids are curious enough to find out and try it). Thus your "solution" is mooted and the kid was exposed to porn huzzah well done.
You guys obviously don't get the issue, THINK. Would you want YOUR kids playing a game where there is a high probability they will be exposed to all the wonders of the world like child porn, rape, self harm, gore, etc.
In short. No. You wouldn't. So why should Minecraft facilitate something like this, a game which is played by a lot of children. It makes no sense.
Once the damage is done, it can't be undone. Listen to me, to prevent it is the only logical way.
You can't go up to a child and expose them to porn then go "oops, forget I showed you that". Nobody is going to say "OKAY, NO PROBLEM I WONT BEAT YOU TO A PULP FOR CORRUPTING MY CHILD!".
Patching the problem up with moderators and ratings and all sort is not going to solve the problem. Ever.
Please for the love of God, think about your ideas before you go HURR DURR IMMA GENUS!"
I agree with you on this Zuriki, a lot of custom textures are ****. And also, couldn't a server owner texture certain blocks to be transparent? No thanks.
1. People can already do, it's better but still not perfect (links to porn) but it's unlikely trolls will use it because it's too difficult.
2. No point in this, go with 1 or 3 instead.
3. It's doable and safe. I like this for the safety though obviously it's more work for Notch and not everyone will like the themes and also for making blocks special function (ie. Log = Digital screen) can't really be done because it can't be "predicted".
1 is the best of them all but obviously not easy enough to apply the texture so well. Yeah I can't put my thought into words so just figure it out.
I don't see why Notch can't just allow people to use their own custom Textures and remove transparency to everything but Glass and Water. You already can't make your skin invisible. I just hope in the end I can use my own custom textures, because the original Minecraft texture is kinda ugly in my opinion, especially after I started using custom textures.
Tons of games have custom textures downloaded from the server, and I have yet to find one where there was porn plastered everywhere. I think you're overreacting. Yes, it's giving the people power to do these things, but will people really do it?
To address your point of the impact on a child, simply by going on the internet every child is almost certain to find porn at one point before they even hit puberty. Even television will show them pictures of naked people, whether they're having sex or not. I'm sure it would be nigh impossible to find a server with textures as you described, but if it did happen it wouldn't even matter honestly. Today's society is highly tolerant of sexualization and nudity in general.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do not wallow do not stall
Time waits for none at all
Your allowance may crawl,
It may fly or even vanish
But none will seem more lavished
Than time lost to all.
You do raise some valid concerns. Thank you for starting this conversation. However... Let me just put it this way: Due to the nature of Minecraft, I believe it cannot be made "safe" without impairing or removing much of what makes it Minecraft.
Quote from Zuriki »
e) No parental lock [...is enough]
In a small way, your fears seem almost irrational to me. Following similar logic, view distance (fog) should be capped to [lowest] or [lowest+1] to make it impossible for block-constructed porn to be unwittingly viewed. (so it would be too big to fit onscreen without the longer draw distance) Please don't write off this counter-argument. Making a large 40x40 or so wall/floor that depicts pornography would be no less effective than custom textures. (it could even be in full color)
Ultimately, due to the open, creative, online, and social nature of this game, I don't think the issues you raise can be dealt with sufficiently. At least not unless we're talking about making a full release of the game with some kind of fully integrated social system like Nintendo's friend codes as implemented in games like Smash Bros Brawl. As it stands, there aren't the development resources or marketing or other backing necessary for such a beast to become a reality. (assuming a serious port would be the way that would come about)
edited edit to (most of) everybody else - we don't need to discuss raising children.
Ok since this topic smells like it might be spiraling the drain, I'm gonna make one last comment and then leave it alone on it's journey to the great beyond.
Providing a server does not make Notch responsible for what people send out with that server. (That would be silly, it would be like blaming the Apache group for pr0n on the web.)
Now if you are worried about ratings and reputation, one of the things that can (and should) be done is to make sure that ONLY people with purchased licences can host servers and that you can REVOKE their ability to do so at any moment for rules outlined in the TOS. That means, you violate the TOS by putting up 18+ content and you loose the price of a game in real money when your license is revoked. Then it is a matter of policing and enforcing.
If, however your concern is with 'protecting' the children, I suggest unplugging the internet and not letting them visit their friend's houses if they have internet. Only way to be sure really. (well mostly sure.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tis far better to be a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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Curse PremiumThis infuriates me.
To quote myself:
Come on, we all know something like this is going to happen. If not childporn, porn nonetheless.
I did a mockup image (slightly nfsw, though everything is hidden) to demonstrate what might happen.
I darkened the background to sort of show that it's not valid in the context of all the other stuf wouldn't be there, it would just be what is on the flat surface.
View image
Though on a much grander and worse scale.
It's not limited to porn either, gore, shock images, it's all possible and it WILL happen.
Firstly, to preemtively counter the arguments.
I don't play on public servers, my thoughts lie with the children who play this game, and the adults who think the game is safe and let their children play. My points are:
a) No child should be exposed to indecent images ESPECIALLY when it's not of their free will
:cool.gif: Nobody, including adults and teens, should ever be exposed to indecent images without free will.
c) If you play on public servers a lot, it's not really avoidable in any sense without stopping playing.
d) It draws bad publicity to Minecraft if all the servers going up are filled with indecent content.
e) A clientside option to enable and disable the content is not enough. It only takes a second for any child to disable the protection. No parental lock can be used because the parent would have to review Minecraft again to ensure that the parent locked the option off with a password which can't be preset
E: Since INVERTIN blatantly ignored this entire section I have enlarged it.
I really want Notch to thoroughly think about the potential for disaster to come from this.
On a much lesser scale, I can see horrible texture packages being used making the game awful to play.
I don't personally care which way it goes (so long as there is an option to disable it) because I won't use the feature and I will have it disabled at all times because 90% of the texture packs imo are horrible. I just don't want the game to blindly wander into a potentially awful pitfall. Not to mention it would be the blame on Notch for providing a program with no beforehand warning of potentially 18+ content and he could be taken to court for it if a parent finds out. It wouldn't be the sole fault of the server owner for exposing children to indecent content.
The ground is filled with landmines, tread carefully. VERY carefully.
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Curse PremiumI mean, we already have custom skins, so...
First, Ignatius used the rock.
Then Billy asked Harry if he wanted to read his BDSM blog. Harry was so surprised that his pants flew right off. He was wearing women's underpants. The inquisitors were wearing them, too.
They realized that they were all men of the lord.
- 30 Hs
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Curse PremiumI'm saying PERSONALLY I don't want to be forced to play the game using someone elses texture pack if I don't like it. To quote Notch:
It works both ways, I'm not telling you NO YOU CANT HAVE THIS FEATURE AT ALL!!! >
@invertin: The server provides the texture with the child porn, the image might be unclear on that. Also, your last comment shows you obviously paid not attention to the post at all. CHILDREN PLAY THE GAME, WOULD YOU EXPOSE YOUR CHILD TO PORN!? No, of course not, it would be both illegal, morally wrong and disgusting. I don't care if I walk into a server full of porn or child porn, I'd be sickened by the state of the game and would actually probably be forced by my morals to report the game to the authorities. Just because I don't think it's right that young children play the game and could be exposed to indecent nature.
Always expect the worst in people when dealing with situations like this.
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Curse PremiumAre you ****ing kidding me.
Ironic, it actually specifically mentions YOU not reading. And you did it again.
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Curse PremiumNotch implements this system, he puts a portal on the front page saying "The game contains potentially 18+ material" and various disclaimers about the content of the servers. Kids stop buying the game because it would probably land them in trouble, parents don't buy the game anymore for their kids. Other parents get refunds because of the warning. Kids get refunds to get out of trouble. Notch loses €1000s and 100s of purchases a day. If not all.
So whilst the features has pros, the cons are costly - either financially costly, or legally costly. Whilst the pros are you get themed servers and... um... no, wait that's it.
And besides, if somebody is playing minecraft, why would they play on a server that's covered in porn, anyways?
Although I can see this being a major problem, it would support mods even better. And while I cannot see things being impossible to view, either. Perhaps a master squad of mods to check textures to make sure they don't have porn in them? That wouldn't be a hard thing to do, it'd just require a quick looking at a bunch of images and reseting them to the original.
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Retired StaffAnd I'm not even a griefer.
And mrfatcat, any sort of paintings would be a problem. Each piece of the painting would render one block hideous and unusable in normal structures. If you think it'd be even slightly okay to force that upon people, you're delusional.
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Curse PremiumAs for 16x16 being a limitation. The art for the in-game pictures you can hang for decoration is more than large enough for any kind of detail you would want. Just put a nice 'gallery' near the spawn if you want to inflict it on people.
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Retired StaffEDIT: The only way this could be okay is if the player had an option to revert to their normal texture. It would be convenient when joining a server like (just an example again) the Portal one, but there's no way I'd play if they let all of the hosts assign me a texture to use.
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Curse PremiumMultiple blocks put together, larger textures are possible, they don't know it's covered in porn til they get there, server hoster put a box around the spawn covered in large porn images.
Your post hold no solutions and all your problems are so obvious to counter.
I'm sure it's illegal to post child porn on to 4chan... hm, need I explain?
Textures are not limited to 16x16 we already have 256x256 textures per block and Notch is going to support these without hacks (he already said).
The option is not enough, it takes a kid a couple of clicks to use let the client download the servers texture (and I'm sure kids are curious enough to find out and try it). Thus your "solution" is mooted and the kid was exposed to porn huzzah well done.
You guys obviously don't get the issue, THINK. Would you want YOUR kids playing a game where there is a high probability they will be exposed to all the wonders of the world like child porn, rape, self harm, gore, etc.
In short. No. You wouldn't. So why should Minecraft facilitate something like this, a game which is played by a lot of children. It makes no sense.
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Curse PremiumOnce the damage is done, it can't be undone. Listen to me, to prevent it is the only logical way.
You can't go up to a child and expose them to porn then go "oops, forget I showed you that". Nobody is going to say "OKAY, NO PROBLEM I WONT BEAT YOU TO A PULP FOR CORRUPTING MY CHILD!".
Patching the problem up with moderators and ratings and all sort is not going to solve the problem. Ever.
Please for the love of God, think about your ideas before you go HURR DURR IMMA GENUS!"
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Curse Premium2. No point in this, go with 1 or 3 instead.
3. It's doable and safe. I like this for the safety though obviously it's more work for Notch and not everyone will like the themes and also for making blocks special function (ie. Log = Digital screen) can't really be done because it can't be "predicted".
1 is the best of them all but obviously not easy enough to apply the texture so well. Yeah I can't put my thought into words so just figure it out.
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Retired StaffTo address your point of the impact on a child, simply by going on the internet every child is almost certain to find porn at one point before they even hit puberty. Even television will show them pictures of naked people, whether they're having sex or not. I'm sure it would be nigh impossible to find a server with textures as you described, but if it did happen it wouldn't even matter honestly. Today's society is highly tolerant of sexualization and nudity in general.
Do not wallow do not stall
Time waits for none at all
Your allowance may crawl,
It may fly or even vanish
But none will seem more lavished
Than time lost to all.
In a small way, your fears seem almost irrational to me. Following similar logic, view distance (fog) should be capped to [lowest] or [lowest+1] to make it impossible for block-constructed porn to be unwittingly viewed. (so it would be too big to fit onscreen without the longer draw distance) Please don't write off this counter-argument. Making a large 40x40 or so wall/floor that depicts pornography would be no less effective than custom textures. (it could even be in full color)
Ultimately, due to the open, creative, online, and social nature of this game, I don't think the issues you raise can be dealt with sufficiently. At least not unless we're talking about making a full release of the game with some kind of fully integrated social system like Nintendo's friend codes as implemented in games like Smash Bros Brawl. As it stands, there aren't the development resources or marketing or other backing necessary for such a beast to become a reality. (assuming a serious port would be the way that would come about)
edited edit to (most of) everybody else - we don't need to discuss raising children.
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Curse PremiumProviding a server does not make Notch responsible for what people send out with that server. (That would be silly, it would be like blaming the Apache group for pr0n on the web.)
Now if you are worried about ratings and reputation, one of the things that can (and should) be done is to make sure that ONLY people with purchased licences can host servers and that you can REVOKE their ability to do so at any moment for rules outlined in the TOS. That means, you violate the TOS by putting up 18+ content and you loose the price of a game in real money when your license is revoked. Then it is a matter of policing and enforcing.
If, however your concern is with 'protecting' the children, I suggest unplugging the internet and not letting them visit their friend's houses if they have internet. Only way to be sure really. (well mostly sure.)