When I first started playing MineCraft, I was hooked to the creative mode. The novelty of building absolutely anything I want with no restrictions but my own imagination was pure ecstasy. And while it still has never lost its charm, I wanted something else to vary my experience. I wanted a game where there was a goal... but it wasn't really clear. I wanted indev.
So I got it. And after playing it for about a month, I've seriously come to realize what Notch meant when he said "emergent gameplay." Or maybe he didn't mean it this way. Whichever way you slice it, MY experience was so unique of any game I've ever played before that I felt a powerful urge to come onto the Internet and rant about it.
The game has an interesting curve in enjoyability. At first, it takes you a while to get the hang of the game. You'll die a few times before you even build your house, assuming you don't just take the starter shelter like a noob. :| But soon, you get more confident. You actually fight the mobs, you build lots of houses, farms, and mines. You get better and better at surviving. And then, that fateful day arrives when you strike a vein of diamonds. The blue stuff has evaded you for a long time, but now it's yours!
Upon realizing your ultimate goal, you ask yourself: "What next?" And here's the crucial point. You either put the game down because you've "finished" it, or you keep playing until you die, or start a new map. And if the fun is still there for you, then certain things begin to emerge that you never noticed before. You take more time to look at the design of the game. Maybe its just a coincidence, but all of my games have started with the shelter door facing east. East, the direction in which the sun rises. And the sun is your best friend on that god-forsaken island. It hails the new day and banishes the monsters. And before you know it, you're making up backstory to every little detail. You're narrating your daily life on the island, and possibly sharing it on a blog. (I.E., Minelife) and people find it entertaining!
My point is, I think that a lot of fun from this game comes from our own imaginations. We need to put ourselves into the game and believe that we're fighting to survive. Does anyone else agree? Am I the only one? What kind of emergent details have you begun to notice in the game that aren't stated, but you KNOW they're there. Discuss your application of imagination to this wide open game.
There is a painting that you can create that is an angel passing across some border into the darkness. That border is the end of the map. Soon, notch will make infinite maps and we will not be able to reach the end of the map. We can not do as angels do; we are only human.
The capitals in the topic title are an anagram for "CAT LEG" or "CAT GEL".
On-topic, I agree. I always try to imagine what I'm doing in a larger context, like how the Dwarf Fort dwarves are building an outpost that will rival those of the great mountainhomes, etc.
It's our imagination guys, not the actual game design that's making up whole new play possibilities. Everything that is in the game is already stored on disk, and you are free to look at the disc contents.Or, in this case, stored as an applet.
Emergent gameplay is false because everything, and I do mean everything, in a game can ultimately be calculable, even if it requires an enormous effort to do so. Emergence occurs because human measurement is subjective and ultimately never pinpoint accurate as most people think.
We may as well write Minecraft fan-fiction.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"cause my idea of file organization" ~Dysgalt
"is" ~Dysgalt
"coffee" ~Makoto
Victory Clan Ambassador ; Omnimodus | The Minecraft Frontier
I agree entirely. The game has such a solid foundation that emergent gameplay grows out of it like wheat from well-irrigated fields.
I've had adventures in this game whose conclusions were more satisfying than most set pieces in, say, first-person-shooters designed specifically to make you feel accomplished on completing a pre-set objective. These were my own objectives, my own motivations, in situations brought on by nothing more than basic fundamental game elements interacting with each other in dynamic ways.
And I believe once multiplayer hits it's only going to get better. Notch won't have to code in bandits, caravan trains, opposing nations, or even warfare*. These things will just happen, even with the rulesets we have now, because of the open versatility of actions and player agency.
*Of course, adding things like new weapons, mobile carts, etc. would facilitate these things, but they could still feasibly happen even with just what we have now.
Hmm, I don't think this is a game. After all, games, unlike movies and music, are classified by their genre, and Minecraft can assume the form of any genre it wants. This is, at best, not a game, but a sandbox environment in which people can mess around with each other and themselves.
That said, emergent gameplay does not exist, as everything is calculable in a game. If a game doesn't even have a defined genre, however, it may as well not be a game. I'm setting it straight what Minecraft here is, folks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"cause my idea of file organization" ~Dysgalt
"is" ~Dysgalt
"coffee" ~Makoto
Victory Clan Ambassador ; Omnimodus | The Minecraft Frontier
It's our imagination guys, not the actual game design that's making up whole new play possibilities. Everything that is in the game is already stored on disk, and you are free to look at the disc contents.Or, in this case, stored as an applet.
Emergent gameplay is false because everything, and I do mean everything, in a game can ultimately be calculable, even if it requires an enormous effort to do so. Emergence occurs because human measurement is subjective and ultimately never pinpoint accurate as most people think.
So then the concept of emergence in general is invalid, as everything in life is also calculable. The point is to simulate randomness and choices as they would appear in 'real life', ie, neither predefined by the designer or the player, but a mesh of the decisions of both to create something new.
Quote from DragoonEnRegalia »
Hmm, I don't think this is a game. After all, games, unlike movies and music, are classified by their genre, and Minecraft can assume the form of any genre it wants. This is, at best, not a game, but a sandbox environment in which people can mess around with each other and themselves.
That said, emergent gameplay does not exist, as everything is calculable in a game. If a game doesn't even have a defined genre, however, it may as well not be a game. I'm setting it straight what Minecraft here is, folks.
Protip: It's a game.
Is SimCity also not a game because it lacks inherent goals?
It's our imagination guys, not the actual game design that's making up whole new play possibilities.
Is that not what I JUST SAID in the original post?
Quote from Adam80027 »
My point is, I think that a lot of fun from this game comes from our own imaginations. We need to put ourselves into the game and believe that we're fighting to survive. Does anyone else agree? Am I the only one? What kind of emergent details have you begun to notice in the game that aren't stated, but you KNOW they're there. Discuss your application of imagination to this wide open game.
What you're telling me is that anything and everything in MineCraft is already set in stone, stated in the coding. Our own experiences of adventure and exploration are all just mental responses to an interactive stimulus. In a way you're right. But not everything is calculable. Notch designed the game as a springboard. It's a symbiosis of creativity. The game provides a canvas, and we are the painters. You cannot fathom, you cannot calculate the infinite number of things a painter could possibly paint. Emergent gameplay is a result of the stimulus of the game and an imaginative response from the player. While it's all perceived in our minds, this doesn't invalidate it as non-existent.
To quote Lawrence Fishbourne in the Matrix: "The mind makes it real."
On another note, I was just kidding when I said it was noob-ish to use the starter shelter upon beginning a game. Lighten up, guys.
To put the topic back on track, discuss your own experiences when the game became more real for you. I myself have started a series along the lines of MineLife, but it's more story driven. It just goes to show that you can build anything around MineCraft as far as story, gameplay, and whatever else you can think of.
This is where my mind went when I started analyzing things deeper than I needed to. I hope to make several seasons with at least 7-10 episodes each. After the first season, its growth will depend entirely on Notch graciously adding new features. Other than that, it might only be a single season long.
The point that I am making that none of you are regarding is that games are exclusively bound to a particular genre, and by genre I mean a classification of similar games that have similar rules. Minecraft technically does not have a genre, so I don't see how that could be determined as a game. The only "game-like" aspect of Minecraft is Survival Mode, where there is a definite goal (survive, lol).
Minecraft is not a game.
@ChocolateSyrup: Really? Oh I don't think so. Alex Kierkegaard's elucidating theories on game design are wondrous indeed. Just read the material requisite to understand what he's saying, and you should enjoy it (that, and Pascal's Wager doesn't work against me.)
(that, and Pascal's Wager doesn't work against me.)
Pascal's Wager does not apply to this situation at all, and you're a big tool for trying to take a dump all over this thread by denying the definitions.
The foundations of emergent gameplay are apparent and if you want to get pseudophilosophical and argue that foundational rules don't give rise to unforeseen interactions that's fine, that's your business, but the rest of us are going to discuss the topic in a productive way instead of trying to shut down everyone else's fun.
Further, your idea that not belonging to an established genre makes it not a game is ludicrous. New genres are born constantly.
Congratulations adam, you've discovered the wonders of open-ended games. You have been enlightened to one of the many wonders of an open ended games that is roleplay and/or imagining that you are said character in said life.
Congratulations adam, you've discovered the wonders of open-ended games. You have been enlightened to one of the many wonders of an open ended games that is roleplay and/or imagining that you are said character in said life.
I'm not throwing sarcasm at you.
I was somewhat offended up until the last sentence. Pahaha.
Quote from ChocolateySyrup »
Quote from DragoonEnRegalia »
(that, and Pascal's Wager doesn't work against me.)
Pascal's Wager does not apply to this situation at all, and you're a big tool for trying to take a dump all over this thread by denying the definitions.
The foundations of emergent gameplay are apparent and if you want to get pseudophilosophical and argue that foundational rules don't give rise to unforeseen interactions that's fine, that's your business, but the rest of us are going to discuss the topic in a productive way instead of trying to shut down everyone else's fun.
Further, your idea that not belonging to an established genre makes it not a game is ludicrous. New genres are born constantly.
To restate what he just said- While your argument is valid and you're entitled to debate these things based on the conclusions you've drawn from facts you've gathered on your own, you aren't particularly welcome to debate them here. The topic of discussion is the sharing of unexpected, emergent and unique experience in the game. (Survive) Not the argument of meta-classification- and by your logic disqualification- of games.
Quote from DragoonEnRegalia »
The only "game-like" aspect of Minecraft is Survival Mode, where there is a definite goal (survive, lol). Minecraft is not a game.
I believe I did specify this topic was about indev, right? The survival indev?
Quote from adam80027 »
I wanted something else to vary my experience. I wanted a game where there was a goal... but it wasn't really clear. I wanted indev. So I got it. And after playing it for about a month... And so on...
Thought so. Yes, the goals are roughly drawn, but it's there. Survive. Kill skeletons or don't, look for diamond or don't, but for heaven's sake, survive. You're kind of winning the game for as long as you stay alive.
To get back on topic for the last time, may I please ask us again to relate some stories of how the game came alive in your own mind. Share your emergent gameplay experiences with us; those that aren't generally accepted as "defined" by the average MineCraft gamer. Do you build entire villages and pretend you have neighbors? Do you generate your own ruins maps and make up stories about the mysteriously absent civilization that built them?
Congratulations adam, you've discovered the wonders of open-ended games. You have been enlightened to one of the many wonders of an open ended games that is roleplay and/or imagining that you are said character in said life.
I'm not throwing sarcasm at you.
I was somewhat offended up until the last sentence. Pahaha.
I understand MC forums has alot of jerks, hardasses and cynical people. But at least you know I'm not one now 8-)
When I first started playing MineCraft, I was hooked to the creative mode. The novelty of building absolutely anything I want with no restrictions but my own imagination was pure ecstasy. And while it still has never lost its charm, I wanted something else to vary my experience. I wanted a game where there was a goal... but it wasn't really clear. I wanted indev.
So I got it. And after playing it for about a month, I've seriously come to realize what Notch meant when he said "emergent gameplay." Or maybe he didn't mean it this way. Whichever way you slice it, MY experience was so unique of any game I've ever played before that I felt a powerful urge to come onto the Internet and rant about it.
The game has an interesting curve in enjoyability. At first, it takes you a while to get the hang of the game. You'll die a few times before you even build your house, assuming you don't just take the starter shelter like a noob. :| But soon, you get more confident. You actually fight the mobs, you build lots of houses, farms, and mines. You get better and better at surviving. And then, that fateful day arrives when you strike a vein of diamonds. The blue stuff has evaded you for a long time, but now it's yours!
Upon realizing your ultimate goal, you ask yourself: "What next?" And here's the crucial point. You either put the game down because you've "finished" it, or you keep playing until you die, or start a new map. And if the fun is still there for you, then certain things begin to emerge that you never noticed before. You take more time to look at the design of the game. Maybe its just a coincidence, but all of my games have started with the shelter door facing east. East, the direction in which the sun rises. And the sun is your best friend on that god-forsaken island. It hails the new day and banishes the monsters. And before you know it, you're making up backstory to every little detail. You're narrating your daily life on the island, and possibly sharing it on a blog. (I.E., Minelife) and people find it entertaining!
My point is, I think that a lot of fun from this game comes from our own imaginations. We need to put ourselves into the game and believe that we're fighting to survive. Does anyone else agree? Am I the only one? What kind of emergent details have you begun to notice in the game that aren't stated, but you KNOW they're there. Discuss your application of imagination to this wide open game.
If those zombies get in here we're SCREWED!
I can only hope I can keep holding them off in my sentry tower.
They've taken the first 3 floors and...WAIT!
What's that?
Oh god they're trying to get through the door and OH GOD AAARGH!!!(Abrupt signal loss)
On-topic, I agree. I always try to imagine what I'm doing in a larger context, like how the Dwarf Fort dwarves are building an outpost that will rival those of the great mountainhomes, etc.
Emergent gameplay is false because everything, and I do mean everything, in a game can ultimately be calculable, even if it requires an enormous effort to do so. Emergence occurs because human measurement is subjective and ultimately never pinpoint accurate as most people think.
We may as well write Minecraft fan-fiction.
"is" ~Dysgalt
"coffee" ~Makoto
Victory Clan Ambassador ; Omnimodus | The Minecraft Frontier
But I kind of agree with the main point of what your saying, you make up your own story, do what you want (megaprojects for me :wink.gif: )
I've had adventures in this game whose conclusions were more satisfying than most set pieces in, say, first-person-shooters designed specifically to make you feel accomplished on completing a pre-set objective. These were my own objectives, my own motivations, in situations brought on by nothing more than basic fundamental game elements interacting with each other in dynamic ways.
And I believe once multiplayer hits it's only going to get better. Notch won't have to code in bandits, caravan trains, opposing nations, or even warfare*. These things will just happen, even with the rulesets we have now, because of the open versatility of actions and player agency.
*Of course, adding things like new weapons, mobile carts, etc. would facilitate these things, but they could still feasibly happen even with just what we have now.
That said, emergent gameplay does not exist, as everything is calculable in a game. If a game doesn't even have a defined genre, however, it may as well not be a game. I'm setting it straight what Minecraft here is, folks.
"is" ~Dysgalt
"coffee" ~Makoto
Victory Clan Ambassador ; Omnimodus | The Minecraft Frontier
So then the concept of emergence in general is invalid, as everything in life is also calculable. The point is to simulate randomness and choices as they would appear in 'real life', ie, neither predefined by the designer or the player, but a mesh of the decisions of both to create something new.
Protip: It's a game.
Is SimCity also not a game because it lacks inherent goals?
Is that not what I JUST SAID in the original post?
What you're telling me is that anything and everything in MineCraft is already set in stone, stated in the coding. Our own experiences of adventure and exploration are all just mental responses to an interactive stimulus. In a way you're right. But not everything is calculable. Notch designed the game as a springboard. It's a symbiosis of creativity. The game provides a canvas, and we are the painters. You cannot fathom, you cannot calculate the infinite number of things a painter could possibly paint. Emergent gameplay is a result of the stimulus of the game and an imaginative response from the player. While it's all perceived in our minds, this doesn't invalidate it as non-existent.
To quote Lawrence Fishbourne in the Matrix: "The mind makes it real."
On another note, I was just kidding when I said it was noob-ish to use the starter shelter upon beginning a game. Lighten up, guys.
Every game theory in the world disagrees.
The shelter, typically I use it. If I dont end up building it into something bigger I chop it down and use it IN something bigger.
Noob moment: I burned down my starter shelter when I figured out how to make the flint and metal for the first time.
You can read the first two episodes here.
http://cfiserver.weebly.com/survival-diaries.html
This is where my mind went when I started analyzing things deeper than I needed to. I hope to make several seasons with at least 7-10 episodes each. After the first season, its growth will depend entirely on Notch graciously adding new features. Other than that, it might only be a single season long.
Minecraft is not a game.
@ChocolateSyrup: Really? Oh I don't think so. Alex Kierkegaard's elucidating theories on game design are wondrous indeed. Just read the material requisite to understand what he's saying, and you should enjoy it (that, and Pascal's Wager doesn't work against me.)
(Oh, and don't turn this into a hate-fest about Alex. It'll end up here: http://forum.insomnia.ac/viewtopic.php?t=2618
"is" ~Dysgalt
"coffee" ~Makoto
Victory Clan Ambassador ; Omnimodus | The Minecraft Frontier
Pascal's Wager does not apply to this situation at all, and you're a big tool for trying to take a dump all over this thread by denying the definitions.
The foundations of emergent gameplay are apparent and if you want to get pseudophilosophical and argue that foundational rules don't give rise to unforeseen interactions that's fine, that's your business, but the rest of us are going to discuss the topic in a productive way instead of trying to shut down everyone else's fun.
Further, your idea that not belonging to an established genre makes it not a game is ludicrous. New genres are born constantly.
I'm not throwing sarcasm at you.
I was somewhat offended up until the last sentence. Pahaha.
To restate what he just said- While your argument is valid and you're entitled to debate these things based on the conclusions you've drawn from facts you've gathered on your own, you aren't particularly welcome to debate them here. The topic of discussion is the sharing of unexpected, emergent and unique experience in the game. (Survive) Not the argument of meta-classification- and by your logic disqualification- of games.
I believe I did specify this topic was about indev, right? The survival indev?
Thought so. Yes, the goals are roughly drawn, but it's there. Survive. Kill skeletons or don't, look for diamond or don't, but for heaven's sake, survive. You're kind of winning the game for as long as you stay alive.
To get back on topic for the last time, may I please ask us again to relate some stories of how the game came alive in your own mind. Share your emergent gameplay experiences with us; those that aren't generally accepted as "defined" by the average MineCraft gamer. Do you build entire villages and pretend you have neighbors? Do you generate your own ruins maps and make up stories about the mysteriously absent civilization that built them?
I understand MC forums has alot of jerks, hardasses and cynical people. But at least you know I'm not one now 8-)