Thats not what I mean. Look at a big project you made using hacks. Now, can you honestly say you would not be any prouder if you could say that it was all built by hand.
My way takes longer, but it gives rewards.
Plus, I don't even want to go though the trouble of getting hacks :tongue.gif:.
No, I know what you meant, and I've done big projects without hacks. I know the feeling you're talking about, and no, I personally don't feel like it's diminished at all when I use the WoM client. But again, that's my subjective opinion, and is therefore just as pointless as yours.
I dont want to get into this arguement too deeply, but there is a point.
The main part of the issue is the Builders from Hacks / Griefers from Hacks.
We do not exactly know this as people argue in both ways.
To help make clear my point
Quote from gameryamen »
I do own a server, and I do have an idea of "how much more complicated everything became because of this". But I still feel it's worth it. See, this is that silly subjective argument problem again. Maybe we should skip this part for the rest of the thread.
A mother is not to blame if her son, of his own choice, murders another person.
Microsoft is not to blame when someone writes a virus on a Windows based machine.
Ford isn't responsible when someone drives an F150 into a streetlight and maiming themself.
Adobe isn't responsible when someone photoshops a copyright image.
But if that mother hadn't had her son, that victim might still be alive. Would you argue that she should've put more thought into the consequences of her giving birth?
If Microsoft didn't help drive the market acceptance of personal computers with their Windows operating system, that hacker may never have gotten into virus scripting. Would you argue that they were stupid for releasing Windows?
If Ford F150s couldn't go faster than 10mph, that collision probably wouldn't result in injury. Would you argue that it was irresponsible for Ford to manufacture a vehicle that can go 60mph?
Without Photoshop, there might be much less copyright infringement. Would you argue that they should've worried more about how their software could be used to violate other company's rights?
With this logic, in can be that;
The inventor of the gun can not be blamed for the thousands of deaths caused.
If it had not been created, the side which created the gun would have lost wars, as they did not have it (possibly)
You could say the same for nukes
BUT
The examples you gave gave more benefits than costs
And the examples I gave had more Costs than benefits. (taking away nukes and guns = good, taking away car = bad)
We do not know the exact Costs / Benefits from Hacks
So We could maybe set up a server and count how many people use hacks to build, compared to how many griefers have the Hacks to grief.
Then we would know whether banning Hacks (Which would be hard) would get rid of griefers, or take away good builders.
This would mean the arguements are not from personal views and more from evidence.
(In my opinion hacks are bad but I could be wrong)
I really appreciate your analytical approach to this debate. I tried to avoid the guns analogy, because of it's political connotation.
It's important to remember that I'm arguing in defense of WoM, only because I saw a lot of posters trashing them for unjust reasons. Obviously I'm with everyone that griefing is awful. I just don't see any rational justification as to why some people want to blame them for the problems that griefers cause. It's been made clear that the game play enhancements they put into their client were already available, and it's obvious that were they to remove their client from their site, the enhancements would still be available.
I don't feel that they need to apologize, since it seems very evident that they hosted their client with the strict intentions of improving the game for players. They have not encouraged griefing, and they've shown a great hand-built model for how to prevent most griefing. They've done more for this community to improve the game experience than just about every other group. From what I've read on WoM's forums about this issue, it's less than an hours work for a knowledgeable coder to implement a system like they have. If I were a competent Java programmer, I'd offer to do it for every big server around, but I'm not.
WoM is not to blame. Griefers are. We need to focus on preveting griefing, because that's the only solution that will improve the problem for everyone.
Retaliation is a pointless gesture, because it doesn't undo the damage. The only two solutions for griefing are preventing the ability to grief and providing an incentive not to grief. The only reasonable incentive I can think of for Minecraft is the joy of creating, which clearly is not enough for some people. Prevention is therefore the path that we should persue. As much as WoM is getting trashed in this thread, their servers demonstrate a great model of grief prevention. Sure, you still can grief a WoM server, but it doesn't happen often, does it?
Retaliation provides an incentive not to.
Though I do agree that WoM does an excellent job of preventing griefers(it is just the manner in how that is controversial)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I disagree with you, therefore you are wrong.
Quality of output = Skill * Effort
That's a good point, but in the specific case of bullying behavior, I think it'd actually act as a reward. Bullies (or griefers) take joy out of ruining other's things, but they also take joy from the reaction. In addition, I can't think of any significant response we could retaliate with that would upset the griefers, or scare them enough to prevent them. Finally, a strong retaliation is still a defense that must be demonstrated, which invites occasional griefing. For these reasons, I feel that prevention is a far more effective route.
I'm going to suspend my responses here. I wouldn't want any overzealous mods to overreact and cut me off from the Minecraft community completely. Let my position be known, and when you think about this issue I hope you'll think about me as doing my best to help and protect the community I adore rather than blindly hate WoM. Thanks for all your support.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm back. Time to revamp this place now that there's no IRC for me.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
so i just decided to download the client and see what the deal is with everything. i hate them even more, now. srsly, it feels so unnatural and the controls are just horrible.
so i just decided to download the client and see what the deal is with everything. i hate them even more, now. srsly, it feels so unnatural and the controls are just horrible.
The controls are the same as the ingame Minecraft controls. The only different controls are the flying and no-clip commands. Yet, you are not required to use them if you are using the wrapper, meaning it does not effect your game-play and wouldn't feel "unnatural".
Also, you are not required AT ALL to even use the wrapper. Although you may disagree and this is mighty redundant, it was created for Minecraft users to have an easier time for building.
so i just decided to download the client and see what the deal is with everything. i hate them even more, now. srsly, it feels so unnatural and the controls are just horrible.
The controls are the same as the ingame Minecraft controls. The only different controls are the flying and no-clip commands. Yet, you are not required to use them if you are using the wrapper, meaning it does not effect your game-play and wouldn't feel "unnatural".
Also, you are not required AT ALL to even use the wrapper. Although you may disagree and this is mighty redundant, it was created for Minecraft users to have an easier time for building.
i meant the flying around and no-clip. and all i said is that i tested it out.
also, the in-game font with the wrapper is also really skewed.
If you "Adored" this community, you wouldn't of asked your account to be deleted.
I'm referring to the Minecraft community as a whole, not necessarily the forums community. Also, take it down a notch citric. I don't think personal problems should factor in here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm back. Time to revamp this place now that there's no IRC for me.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
la la give me attention moderators are bad **** da police laa
fixed it
Honestly? Come on, admins and moderators should set an example. Your authority provides an unfair sway of opinions if you don’t stay impartial and unbiased.
la la give me attention moderators are bad **** da police laa
fixed it
Honestly? Come on, admins and moderators should set an example. Your authority provides an unfair sway of opinions if you don’t stay impartial and unbiased.
Right. Also, I have nothing wrong with moderators or the police. I just believe that both should be held to a certain standard, and when they operate outside that standard, my problems begin.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm back. Time to revamp this place now that there's no IRC for me.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
la la give me attention moderators are bad **** da police laa
fixed it
Wow. Really? Are you joking?
This is a GOOD example of how admins treat members who TRY to make a view. Why are you doing this citricsquid? All he's doing is expressing his opinion. Then you use your editing skills to make him look bad.
You, sir, are doing bad as an admin if this is how you treat people who don't get along with you.
la la give me attention moderators are bad **** da police laa
fixed it
Wow. Really? Are you joking?
This is a GOOD example of how admins treat members who TRY to make a view. Why are you doing this citricsquid? All he's doing is expressing his opinion. Then you use your editing skills to make him look bad.
You, sir, are doing bad as an admin if this is how you treat people who don't get along with you.
Also, +1 to what meizlizard said.
Citric never edited my original post. Only slam them for things they actually did :wink.gif:.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm back. Time to revamp this place now that there's no IRC for me.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
This is a GOOD example of how admins treat members who TRY to make a view. Why are you doing this citricsquid? All he's doing is expressing his opinion. Then you use your editing skills to make him look bad.
You, sir, are doing bad as an admin if this is how you treat people who don't get along with you.
Also, +1 to what meizlizard said.
Citric never edited my original post. Only slam them for things they actually did :wink.gif:.
I know, what I meant to say what editing the post he quotes into what he thought you were getting at.
No, I know what you meant, and I've done big projects without hacks. I know the feeling you're talking about, and no, I personally don't feel like it's diminished at all when I use the WoM client. But again, that's my subjective opinion, and is therefore just as pointless as yours.
The main part of the issue is the Builders from Hacks / Griefers from Hacks.
We do not exactly know this as people argue in both ways.
To help make clear my point
With this logic, in can be that;
The inventor of the gun can not be blamed for the thousands of deaths caused.
If it had not been created, the side which created the gun would have lost wars, as they did not have it (possibly)
You could say the same for nukes
BUT
The examples you gave gave more benefits than costs
And the examples I gave had more Costs than benefits. (taking away nukes and guns = good, taking away car = bad)
We do not know the exact Costs / Benefits from Hacks
So We could maybe set up a server and count how many people use hacks to build, compared to how many griefers have the Hacks to grief.
Then we would know whether banning Hacks (Which would be hard) would get rid of griefers, or take away good builders.
This would mean the arguements are not from personal views and more from evidence.
(In my opinion hacks are bad but I could be wrong)
It's important to remember that I'm arguing in defense of WoM, only because I saw a lot of posters trashing them for unjust reasons. Obviously I'm with everyone that griefing is awful. I just don't see any rational justification as to why some people want to blame them for the problems that griefers cause. It's been made clear that the game play enhancements they put into their client were already available, and it's obvious that were they to remove their client from their site, the enhancements would still be available.
I don't feel that they need to apologize, since it seems very evident that they hosted their client with the strict intentions of improving the game for players. They have not encouraged griefing, and they've shown a great hand-built model for how to prevent most griefing. They've done more for this community to improve the game experience than just about every other group. From what I've read on WoM's forums about this issue, it's less than an hours work for a knowledgeable coder to implement a system like they have. If I were a competent Java programmer, I'd offer to do it for every big server around, but I'm not.
WoM is not to blame. Griefers are. We need to focus on preveting griefing, because that's the only solution that will improve the problem for everyone.
Retaliation provides an incentive not to.
Though I do agree that WoM does an excellent job of preventing griefers(it is just the manner in how that is controversial)
Quality of output = Skill * Effort
That's a good point, but in the specific case of bullying behavior, I think it'd actually act as a reward. Bullies (or griefers) take joy out of ruining other's things, but they also take joy from the reaction. In addition, I can't think of any significant response we could retaliate with that would upset the griefers, or scare them enough to prevent them. Finally, a strong retaliation is still a defense that must be demonstrated, which invites occasional griefing. For these reasons, I feel that prevention is a far more effective route.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
fixed it
The controls are the same as the ingame Minecraft controls. The only different controls are the flying and no-clip commands. Yet, you are not required to use them if you are using the wrapper, meaning it does not effect your game-play and wouldn't feel "unnatural".
Also, you are not required AT ALL to even use the wrapper. Although you may disagree and this is mighty redundant, it was created for Minecraft users to have an easier time for building.
i meant the flying around and no-clip. and all i said is that i tested it out.
also, the in-game font with the wrapper is also really skewed.
I'm referring to the Minecraft community as a whole, not necessarily the forums community. Also, take it down a notch citric. I don't think personal problems should factor in here.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
Honestly? Come on, admins and moderators should set an example. Your authority provides an unfair sway of opinions if you don’t stay impartial and unbiased.
Right. Also, I have nothing wrong with moderators or the police. I just believe that both should be held to a certain standard, and when they operate outside that standard, my problems begin.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
Wow. Really? Are you joking?
This is a GOOD example of how admins treat members who TRY to make a view. Why are you doing this citricsquid? All he's doing is expressing his opinion. Then you use your editing skills to make him look bad.
You, sir, are doing bad as an admin if this is how you treat people who don't get along with you.
Also, +1 to what meizlizard said.
Citric never edited my original post. Only slam them for things they actually did :wink.gif:.
-AlLnAtuRalX
Feel free to IM me. I'm here to help with whatever issues you may have, and would be glad to assist.
I know, what I meant to say what editing the post he quotes into what he thought you were getting at.
Still, that's not good admin ethics at ALL!