I sincerely disagree. Though I feel without some evidence this argument is mostly subjective (and therefore meaningless for the purposes of debate), consider this: As a builder, I've been able to build projects much larger and more complex using the WoM client than I would've without it, assuming the time I dedicate is the same. As a (theoretical, mind you) griefer, I've been able to destroy much larger and more complex projects with the WoM client than I would've been able to without it, again assuming that the time I dedicate is the same.
I cannot see any reason why my ability to destroy is not amplified exactly as much as my ability to create through use of the WoM client. And because there are people (like me) who don't grief, but do use the WoM client, it's a net gain. The only problem comes from the people who choose to grief, which is the issue that we should be focusing on.
You need precision while building, but not when destroying. Speed hacks arn't too useful in building(getting around in a huge building yes, but not building itself), meanwhile a griefer could speed run around the map, and distribute the damage.
Detection also gets more difficult with hacks. Speed runners are hard to catch. Especially when they fly high. You will end up having problems separating the visitors from the griefers.
As a note, making servers paid only is an effectivly way of combating griefers, at a cost of users.
I'm wondering though, how do you take out the people who grief? Bans can be evaded, and the level of selfishness they pose is too hard to destroy. The only way I can think of is retaliation.
Regarding defensive mesures: levels are helpful in preventing, and sector undos are very helpful without the preformace cost(or technical issues) of user specific undos.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I disagree with you, therefore you are wrong.
Quality of output = Skill * Effort
I sincerely disagree. Though I feel without some evidence this argument is mostly subjective (and therefore meaningless for the purposes of debate), consider this: As a builder, I've been able to build projects much larger and more complex using the WoM client than I would've without it, assuming the time I dedicate is the same. As a (theoretical, mind you) griefer, I've been able to destroy much larger and more complex projects with the WoM client than I would've been able to without it, again assuming that the time I dedicate is the same.
I cannot see any reason why my ability to destroy is not amplified exactly as much as my ability to create through use of the WoM client. And because there are people (like me) who don't grief, but do use the WoM client, it's a net gain. The only problem comes from the people who choose to grief, which is the issue that we should be focusing on.
My english is way too bad in order for me to explain this in a good way, but I'll try.
The amount of damage you're able to do as a griefer is drastically increased with the help of hacks. You move way faster, you're harder to spot and you can hack out of a prison when, say, the server is empty and supposed to be closed. Imagine the damage when you come online the next day.
However, when it comes to building the quality of your buildings isn't really improved at all just because you use hacks. You're just faster than normal since you can move as if you're using an editor. You've done more in less time, and that's it. Not to mention, if you build together with like 3-5 friends (After all, this is a multiplayer game) it'll go faster anyways.
If this is too cryptic, just read my previous posts.
I use the increased speed while building all the time, it makes a huge difference for me. If I were too concede to your argument, then why are people allowed to move as fast as they can without speed hacks? I mean, if more speed = more damage, then shouldn't we all be limited to a snail's pace to prevent damage? If that sounds silly to you, then you may be able to appreciate how your argument sounds silly to me.
As far as detection, I feel that is the job of admins. I know it's possible to keep track of who last altered any specific voxel, so some logging and trivial data-mining points to who is to blame. And naturally, bans can be evaded, but in no way is that the fault of the WoM client.
Retaliation is a pointless gesture, because it doesn't undo the damage. The only two solutions for griefing are preventing the ability to grief and providing an incentive not to grief. The only reasonable incentive I can think of for Minecraft is the joy of creating, which clearly is not enough for some people. Prevention is therefore the path that we should persue. As much as WoM is getting trashed in this thread, their servers demonstrate a great model of grief prevention. Sure, you still can grief a WoM server, but it doesn't happen often, does it?
The point that I'm trying to make is that in no way is the griefing problem WoM's fault, as this open letter seems wont to prove. And since the WoM client improves the game for some people, it's not a bad thing. The WoM client doesn't grief, griefers grief. Let's focus on solving that problem, and I promise you the game will improve much more than it would if WoM took down their client.
It's not hard to catch someone walking at normal speed. Also, the damage they are putting out is alot more easy to manage. Comparing it to reducing the normal walking speed even further is ridiculous, since the normal speed is manageable. It's a huge difference trying to catch someone who's flying across a 256x256 map in less than 5 seconds in comparison to following someone walking, on the ground, at a normal pace.
It's true that a WoM server is hard to grief. Do you have access their source code? I'm going to assume that you don't, just like (almost) everyone else who plays this game. But the hacks are available. Do you see the problem? You shouldn't have to mod the game yourself just to be able to play it.
Removing the client from their website is pointless now when it's been distributed to everyone and their mothers. It's true that WoM aren't the bad guys - But they provided the bad guys with the necessary tools, and that for a (in my opinion, mind you) trivial purpose.
Where then is the cutoff point? Do you have any rationalization for players being able to move up to a specific speed but no faster?
As far as catching griefers, I've never responded to griefing by moving my character to "keep up" with a griefer. It's much more effective to ban them and then, using whatever tools I have, undo their damage.
No, I don't have access to the WoM server code, if I did, I'd surely open it up for other servers. I'd love to see them do this, though I can imagine a few reasons why they wouldn't (number one being, surprise, to prevent griefing!). But they've put in the effort, and shown that it can be done. They found a problem with the game and addressed it, instead of (unjustly) blaming other people for it.
The other route we as a community could take (since I don't see anyone offering to distribute anything like WoM's server code) is to make it known to Notch that we'd really appreciate something similar to what WoM has on their servers. If everybody has access restriction abilities, griefing would become that much harder to do.
You feel that WoM's client has trivial purpose, and I don't. That's the basis of the problem with subjective arguments, and why they are pointless for debate. The root problem here is still the griefers, which are absolutely not WoM's fault. If WoM is truly "responsible" for the griefing, then so is every server host (for hosting a server where people can build things that others can destroy), and Notch for building a game that allows people to grief. Personally, I'm not going to hold it against Notch or Server Ops, because it's not their fault. But it's also not WoM's fault that people have chosen to grief with their tool.
Unless you can provide evidence that WoM built the tool with the intent to encourage griefing, or has otherwise promoted griefing through the use of their tool, you need to stop blaming them for something that isn't their fault.
Where then is the cutoff point? Do you have any rationalization for players being able to move up to a specific speed but no faster?
As far as catching griefers, I've never responded to griefing by moving my character to "keep up" with a griefer. It's much more effective to ban them and then, using whatever tools I have, undo their damage.
No, I don't have access to the WoM server code, if I did, I'd surely open it up for other servers. I'd love to see them do this, though I can imagine a few reasons why they wouldn't (number one being, surprise, to prevent griefing!). But they've put in the effort, and shown that it can be done. They found a problem with the game and addressed it, instead of (unjustly) blaming other people for it.
The other route we as a community could take (since I don't see anyone offering to distribute anything like WoM's server code) is to make it known to Notch that we'd really appreciate something similar to what WoM has on their servers. If everybody has access restriction abilities, griefing would become that much harder to do.
You feel that WoM's client has trivial purpose, and I don't. That's the basis of the problem with subjective arguments, and why they are pointless for debate. The root problem here is still the griefers, which are absolutely not WoM's fault. If WoM is truly "responsible" for the griefing, then so is every server host (for hosting a server where people can build things that others can destroy), and Notch for building a game that allows people to grief. Personally, I'm not going to hold it against Notch or Server Ops, because it's not their fault. But it's also not WoM's fault that people have chosen to grief with their tool.
Unless you can provide evidence that WoM built the tool with the intent to encourage griefing, or has otherwise promoted griefing through the use of their tool, you need to stop blaming them for something that isn't their fault.
Well, first of all; You can't ban people randomly if you want your server to be remotely successful. A griefer has to be seen/caught before you can ban him. Most OP's do this by _following_ new players around. Do you have a better suggestion? Because I could really need one.
Feel free to quote me where I blamed WoM for all of this. I've never said they are the root of this problem. I'm simply implying that it was a pretty stupid move from their part, not that they are the cause of all the griefing. They just made it harder to control when they released the client with no thought whatsoever of the consequences. Yes, they can control the drastically increased amounts griefing that followed themselves since they have the proper tools to do so.. But what about every other server owner in this game? The reason for doing this being "to prevent griefing" sounds like total bull to me, but I don't know what their intentions were.
I'm sure some people are happy with using hacks when playing this game. But you have no idea how much more complicated everything became because of this if you're not a server owner yourself. This is why I feel like it's just not worth it.
Think of it that way. Some people use guns to eliminate the badguys, and some use guns to be the badguys. Then others use them for hunting (building). But usually the badguys somehow get stronger guns (They can delete faster), and they can easily kill and hurt.
And those are hacks. Replace guns with hacks, and you'll understand. Eliminated hacks doesn't hurt anyone, but keeping them does.
Well, first of all; You can't ban people randomly if you want your server to be remotely successful. A griefer has to be seen/caught before you can ban him. Most OP's do this by _following_ new players around. Do you have a better suggestion? Because I could really need one.
I see absolutely no reason why server op's can't use the WoM client. Sure, maybe it feels right to say they "shouldn't have to", but in a perfect world, I "shouldn't have to" lock my car when I park downtown. Of course, I've already made my better suggestion, which is to convince someone to develop a access control system. This solution fixes the actual problem, while still letting people enjoy the benefits of WoM's client. If you feel this isn't something the community should have to do, talk to Notch.
Quote from underd0g »
Feel free to quote me where I blamed WoM for all of this.
Sorry, you're right. I've used the word "you" while responding to your posts when I should've said "people in this thread". My bad.
Quote from underd0g »
I've never said they are the root of this problem. I'm simply implying that it was a pretty stupid move from their part, not that they are the cause of all the griefing. They just made it harder to control when they released the client with no thought whatsoever of the consequences.
So it's not WoM's fault, but they're stupid anyways? Seems to me like they're the smart ones around here. They clearly put thought into the consequences of releasing their client, and demonstrated a great way to overcome the potential abuse of their tool. Maybe Notch has talked to some of the WoM developers about how they did what they did (or maybe he already knew how to do it), and we just need to wait for him to implement such a feature.
Quote from underd0g »
Yes, they can control the drastically increased amounts griefing that followed themselves since they have the proper tools to do so.. But what about every other server owner in this game? The reason for doing this being "to prevent griefing" sounds like total bull to me, but I don't know what their intentions were.
Well, I'm willing to bet that if the code they used to limit what players can do is freely available on the net, that some ambitious griefers would analyze the code and figure a way through the defenses. As for what should every other server op do? Well, build your own code, or find someone who can.
Quote from underd0g »
I'm sure some people are happy with using hacks when playing this game. But you have no idea how much more complicated everything became because of this if you're not a server owner yourself. This is why I feel like it's just not worth it.
I do own a server, and I do have an idea of "how much more complicated everything became because of this". But I still feel it's worth it. See, this is that silly subjective argument problem again. Maybe we should skip this part for the rest of the thread.
A mother is not to blame if her son, of his own choice, murders another person.
Microsoft is not to blame when someone writes a virus on a Windows based machine.
Ford isn't responsible when someone drives an F150 into a streetlight and maiming themself.
Adobe isn't responsible when someone photoshops a copyright image.
But if that mother hadn't had her son, that victim might still be alive. Would you argue that she should've put more thought into the consequences of her giving birth?
If Microsoft didn't help drive the market acceptance of personal computers with their Windows operating system, that hacker may never have gotten into virus scripting. Would you argue that they were stupid for releasing Windows?
If Ford F150s couldn't go faster than 10mph, that collision probably wouldn't result in injury. Would you argue that it was irresponsible for Ford to manufacture a vehicle that can go 60mph?
Without Photoshop, there might be much less copyright infringement. Would you argue that they should've worried more about how their software could be used to violate other company's rights?
I'm off to bed now. Feel free to let me know if someone comes up with a legitimate, non-subjective reason as to why WoM deserves to be dragged through the mud for trying to improve the game experience.
I think that speed hacks are now an integral part of the game, and people just don't want to move slow to get from point A to B. But noclip is far, far more useful for griefers. They can get into admin-land, bypass a prison, and more. It's far more useful for griefers than normal players, and if one hack is outlawed forever it'd be noclip.
My solution for this issue is:
Anti-hacks. This is the answer to hacks, IMO.
A way to fly/jump higher. Blockland had jet-feet for movement and speed, but they also had a permissions system for blocks, so that isn't very feasible.
Admins get noclip/speed hacks. Griefers are easier to catch this way, and admins should be able to noclip into anything.
A nameboard addition: showing your speed. Then, at a glance, an admin can look at the board and see who is speedhacking across the map.
And finally and most importantly, a read-only permissions level. You can move normally, just not build. This will squash griefers, reduce the efficacy of noclip seeing as there won't be a spawnjail to hack out of, and let servers be up all night.
Those are my solutions, if one can't be implemented go implement another. Thanks for reading.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from vede »
Minecraft isn't about what you build, it's about building it.
ehh.
I don't use hacks. I think that the game is more fun without it. Can you really feel as if you have accomplished anything when using them?
I sure do. Turns out I'm proud of what I build even when I don't spend half my time building scaffolding. I'm also much more motivated to take on big projects. But that's just me, you're welcome to your own opinion. However, since we both have different opinions and neither of us has a good reason for our opinions to mean more than the other, we can't really settle this debate with subjective arguments.
Thats not what I mean. Look at a big project you made using hacks. Now, can you honestly say you would not be any prouder if you could say that it was all built by hand.
My way takes longer, but it gives rewards.
Plus, I don't even want to go though the trouble of getting hacks :tongue.gif:.
Hacks help griefers more than they help players, imho.
Quality of output = Skill * Effort
I cannot see any reason why my ability to destroy is not amplified exactly as much as my ability to create through use of the WoM client. And because there are people (like me) who don't grief, but do use the WoM client, it's a net gain. The only problem comes from the people who choose to grief, which is the issue that we should be focusing on.
Detection also gets more difficult with hacks. Speed runners are hard to catch. Especially when they fly high. You will end up having problems separating the visitors from the griefers.
As a note, making servers paid only is an effectivly way of combating griefers, at a cost of users.
I'm wondering though, how do you take out the people who grief? Bans can be evaded, and the level of selfishness they pose is too hard to destroy. The only way I can think of is retaliation.
Regarding defensive mesures: levels are helpful in preventing, and sector undos are very helpful without the preformace cost(or technical issues) of user specific undos.
Quality of output = Skill * Effort
My english is way too bad in order for me to explain this in a good way, but I'll try.
The amount of damage you're able to do as a griefer is drastically increased with the help of hacks. You move way faster, you're harder to spot and you can hack out of a prison when, say, the server is empty and supposed to be closed. Imagine the damage when you come online the next day.
However, when it comes to building the quality of your buildings isn't really improved at all just because you use hacks. You're just faster than normal since you can move as if you're using an editor. You've done more in less time, and that's it. Not to mention, if you build together with like 3-5 friends (After all, this is a multiplayer game) it'll go faster anyways.
If this is too cryptic, just read my previous posts.
It's not worth it. At least not for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMsExmLc4_w
As far as detection, I feel that is the job of admins. I know it's possible to keep track of who last altered any specific voxel, so some logging and trivial data-mining points to who is to blame. And naturally, bans can be evaded, but in no way is that the fault of the WoM client.
Retaliation is a pointless gesture, because it doesn't undo the damage. The only two solutions for griefing are preventing the ability to grief and providing an incentive not to grief. The only reasonable incentive I can think of for Minecraft is the joy of creating, which clearly is not enough for some people. Prevention is therefore the path that we should persue. As much as WoM is getting trashed in this thread, their servers demonstrate a great model of grief prevention. Sure, you still can grief a WoM server, but it doesn't happen often, does it?
The point that I'm trying to make is that in no way is the griefing problem WoM's fault, as this open letter seems wont to prove. And since the WoM client improves the game for some people, it's not a bad thing. The WoM client doesn't grief, griefers grief. Let's focus on solving that problem, and I promise you the game will improve much more than it would if WoM took down their client.
It's true that a WoM server is hard to grief. Do you have access their source code? I'm going to assume that you don't, just like (almost) everyone else who plays this game. But the hacks are available. Do you see the problem? You shouldn't have to mod the game yourself just to be able to play it.
Removing the client from their website is pointless now when it's been distributed to everyone and their mothers. It's true that WoM aren't the bad guys - But they provided the bad guys with the necessary tools, and that for a (in my opinion, mind you) trivial purpose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMsExmLc4_w
As far as catching griefers, I've never responded to griefing by moving my character to "keep up" with a griefer. It's much more effective to ban them and then, using whatever tools I have, undo their damage.
No, I don't have access to the WoM server code, if I did, I'd surely open it up for other servers. I'd love to see them do this, though I can imagine a few reasons why they wouldn't (number one being, surprise, to prevent griefing!). But they've put in the effort, and shown that it can be done. They found a problem with the game and addressed it, instead of (unjustly) blaming other people for it.
The other route we as a community could take (since I don't see anyone offering to distribute anything like WoM's server code) is to make it known to Notch that we'd really appreciate something similar to what WoM has on their servers. If everybody has access restriction abilities, griefing would become that much harder to do.
You feel that WoM's client has trivial purpose, and I don't. That's the basis of the problem with subjective arguments, and why they are pointless for debate. The root problem here is still the griefers, which are absolutely not WoM's fault. If WoM is truly "responsible" for the griefing, then so is every server host (for hosting a server where people can build things that others can destroy), and Notch for building a game that allows people to grief. Personally, I'm not going to hold it against Notch or Server Ops, because it's not their fault. But it's also not WoM's fault that people have chosen to grief with their tool.
Unless you can provide evidence that WoM built the tool with the intent to encourage griefing, or has otherwise promoted griefing through the use of their tool, you need to stop blaming them for something that isn't their fault.
Well, first of all; You can't ban people randomly if you want your server to be remotely successful. A griefer has to be seen/caught before you can ban him. Most OP's do this by _following_ new players around. Do you have a better suggestion? Because I could really need one.
Feel free to quote me where I blamed WoM for all of this. I've never said they are the root of this problem. I'm simply implying that it was a pretty stupid move from their part, not that they are the cause of all the griefing. They just made it harder to control when they released the client with no thought whatsoever of the consequences. Yes, they can control the drastically increased amounts griefing that followed themselves since they have the proper tools to do so.. But what about every other server owner in this game? The reason for doing this being "to prevent griefing" sounds like total bull to me, but I don't know what their intentions were.
I'm sure some people are happy with using hacks when playing this game. But you have no idea how much more complicated everything became because of this if you're not a server owner yourself. This is why I feel like it's just not worth it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMsExmLc4_w
Think of it that way. Some people use guns to eliminate the badguys, and some use guns to be the badguys. Then others use them for hunting (building). But usually the badguys somehow get stronger guns (They can delete faster), and they can easily kill and hurt.
And those are hacks. Replace guns with hacks, and you'll understand. Eliminated hacks doesn't hurt anyone, but keeping them does.
I see absolutely no reason why server op's can't use the WoM client. Sure, maybe it feels right to say they "shouldn't have to", but in a perfect world, I "shouldn't have to" lock my car when I park downtown. Of course, I've already made my better suggestion, which is to convince someone to develop a access control system. This solution fixes the actual problem, while still letting people enjoy the benefits of WoM's client. If you feel this isn't something the community should have to do, talk to Notch.
Sorry, you're right. I've used the word "you" while responding to your posts when I should've said "people in this thread". My bad.
So it's not WoM's fault, but they're stupid anyways? Seems to me like they're the smart ones around here. They clearly put thought into the consequences of releasing their client, and demonstrated a great way to overcome the potential abuse of their tool. Maybe Notch has talked to some of the WoM developers about how they did what they did (or maybe he already knew how to do it), and we just need to wait for him to implement such a feature.
Well, I'm willing to bet that if the code they used to limit what players can do is freely available on the net, that some ambitious griefers would analyze the code and figure a way through the defenses. As for what should every other server op do? Well, build your own code, or find someone who can.
I do own a server, and I do have an idea of "how much more complicated everything became because of this". But I still feel it's worth it. See, this is that silly subjective argument problem again. Maybe we should skip this part for the rest of the thread.
A mother is not to blame if her son, of his own choice, murders another person.
Microsoft is not to blame when someone writes a virus on a Windows based machine.
Ford isn't responsible when someone drives an F150 into a streetlight and maiming themself.
Adobe isn't responsible when someone photoshops a copyright image.
But if that mother hadn't had her son, that victim might still be alive. Would you argue that she should've put more thought into the consequences of her giving birth?
If Microsoft didn't help drive the market acceptance of personal computers with their Windows operating system, that hacker may never have gotten into virus scripting. Would you argue that they were stupid for releasing Windows?
If Ford F150s couldn't go faster than 10mph, that collision probably wouldn't result in injury. Would you argue that it was irresponsible for Ford to manufacture a vehicle that can go 60mph?
Without Photoshop, there might be much less copyright infringement. Would you argue that they should've worried more about how their software could be used to violate other company's rights?
I'm off to bed now. Feel free to let me know if someone comes up with a legitimate, non-subjective reason as to why WoM deserves to be dragged through the mud for trying to improve the game experience.
Modder. The poster behind the pre-acquisition post #15000.
If you're trying to reach me, MCF posts/PMs are unlikely to reach me quickly. Try an e-mail instead!
My solution for this issue is:
Anti-hacks. This is the answer to hacks, IMO.
A way to fly/jump higher. Blockland had jet-feet for movement and speed, but they also had a permissions system for blocks, so that isn't very feasible.
Admins get noclip/speed hacks. Griefers are easier to catch this way, and admins should be able to noclip into anything.
A nameboard addition: showing your speed. Then, at a glance, an admin can look at the board and see who is speedhacking across the map.
And finally and most importantly, a read-only permissions level. You can move normally, just not build. This will squash griefers, reduce the efficacy of noclip seeing as there won't be a spawnjail to hack out of, and let servers be up all night.
Those are my solutions, if one can't be implemented go implement another. Thanks for reading.
VICTORY'AN #2
Nonsense, it's never too late!
AGH! TRYING TO GET ME TO SUICIDE! *calls the cops*
Modder. The poster behind the pre-acquisition post #15000.
If you're trying to reach me, MCF posts/PMs are unlikely to reach me quickly. Try an e-mail instead!
I don't use hacks. I think that the game is more fun without it. Can you really feel as if you have accomplished anything when using them?
I sure do. Turns out I'm proud of what I build even when I don't spend half my time building scaffolding. I'm also much more motivated to take on big projects. But that's just me, you're welcome to your own opinion. However, since we both have different opinions and neither of us has a good reason for our opinions to mean more than the other, we can't really settle this debate with subjective arguments.
My way takes longer, but it gives rewards.
Plus, I don't even want to go though the trouble of getting hacks :tongue.gif:.
rage i just lost :sad.gif:
ontopic: i think that the hack should be removed completly and more op commands added for preventing greifing