In my opinion, what it all comes down to is what's fun for you (or for everyone involved, in a multi-player game). UpUp used the example of Monopoly. A common "house rule" is that all money paid for things like Community Chest cards is put in the middle of the board and given to whoever lands on "Free Parking". It's not a rule -- in fact, the rules explicitly say that "Free Parking" is a no-op space and gives you nothing. But if everyone playing the game thinks that change is fine, then that's the way they should play. For that matter, if you're playing Solitaire with real cards and everything, and you decide to look under your top cards to see what's next in the stack, sure, by the formal rules of the game you're cheating. But by the rules of your game, which can be anything you want them to be, you're not -- you're just playing "solitaire with house rules" as it were. Same thing for Minecraft: if you're playing single player, anything you want is your business. It might not be how everybody (or anybody) else wants to play, but IMO, it's between you and ... well, you.
Want to peek at your cards in Klondike solitaire? Reload that Civilization save because you got a hostile tribe from the goodie hut? Play "comp stomp" games in Starcraft? Or save/reload until you get an enchantment you want? If you're not affecting other players, it's nobody's business but your own. IMO, something is only cheating if there's someone being cheated -- and in a single-player game, there isn't.
This begs a further point, however... is any world that adds to the leaderboards truly a solitary one?... or is someone else being cheated out of their honest ranking by the activities of those who use this glitch?
Personally, I don't care how anyone wants to play their own game. but calling a person a 'cornball' for using this exploit while at the same time defending grinding... which is seriously exploiting the game mechanics to meet your own ends...which by it's definition is cheating... is pretty low to me.
You don't have to use this exploit of saving first before enchanting if you don't choose to, but don't complain about someone else doing that when you are yourself defending bending the game mechanics to the point of breaking to meet your own needs.
And no, the game designers didn't design the game around the idea of players MOB Farming ... players just got creative with bending the mechanics of the game to meet their whims.
Technically, it is cheating to create an infinite water supply... but the game allows it, so no one complains...
Technically, it is cheating to use a torch to auto mine a stack of sand or gravel as they fall onto it... again, no one complains about that.
I say let people play how they want too, and get off your high horse and stop with the name calling or putting down others because they want to play differently than you do.
Personally, I don't care how anyone wants to play their own game. but calling a person a 'cornball' for using this exploit while at the same time defending grinding... which is seriously exploiting the game mechanics to meet your own ends...which by it's definition is cheating... is pretty low to me.
You don't have to use this exploit of saving first before enchanting if you don't choose to, but don't complain about someone else doing that when you are yourself defending bending the game mechanics to the point of breaking to meet your own needs.
And no, the game designers didn't design the game around the idea of players MOB Farming ... players just got creative with bending the mechanics of the game to meet their whims.
Technically, it is cheating to create an infinite water supply... but the game allows it, so no one complains...
Technically, it is cheating to use a torch to auto mine a stack of sand or gravel as they fall onto it... again, no one complains about that.
I say let people play how they want too, and get off your high horse and stop with the name calling or putting down others because they want to play differently than you do.
1. When did I ever call anyone a "cornball?" I didn't.
2. IF creating an infinite water supply was not designed into the game, why is it that one cannot create an infinite lava supply. I'm sure the programmers would have programmed water differently IF they wanted to stop people from creating infinite water supplies.
3. Re ginders: The Minecraft website openly suggests that newcomers to the game consult the tutorials on the Wikii website and links to this page:
"Mob grinders are the last part of a mob farm and are used to kill mobs in massive amounts while also collecting all dropped items at a convenient location. They are a mechanism and can be considered a special type of trap."
If the developer considered it cheating, would they direct newcomers to a tutorial that states this?
This [raises] a further point, however... is any world that adds to the leaderboards truly a solitary one?... or is someone else being cheated out of their honest ranking by the activities of those who use this glitch?
Well, there is this. But I have to wonder (not caring about the leaderboards myself) how accurate the rankings are anyway? As I understand it, not only is there is no way for the leaderboards to exclude people who do things which are permitted by the game (whether it's mob farming or quitting without saving) that aren't "playing as intended", but actual hacks are used to boost people's rankings so that no non-hacking player can compete at all. If that is indeed the case, there are far greater problems than players quitting without saving. And if so, the comparison between one's own ranking and that of a total stranger is meaningless, and with friends, if relative ranking is important, one would assume that friends could agree upon rules among themselves.
There are people who do things to make Minecraft deliberately more difficult, too. For example, someone I talked with avoids using any gear better than iron (except a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian, I believe). There are plenty of people who play "vegetarian" Minecraft -- no food except apples and bread. There are people who do all sorts of things to make the game more challenging because they find it too easy. Should they get a different rank on the leaderboards because they're playing a harder game than someone on the same difficulty level but who makes different choices does? This starts to turn into a real hairball.
Minecraft isn't a straightforward game like Halo, with defined objectives and means of accomplishing them. It's a sandbox game, and trying to graft the whole leaderboard concept onto it just doesn't work well. Probably none of us plays Minecraft the same way. That's one reason why I don't buy the "you can't play this game you bought the way you want to because someone you've never met and will never meet will feel unhappy because he's not where he wants to be in a list" argument. If anything, it's a reason for doing away with the whole concept of overall leaderboards in MC to begin with.
Incidentally, if the programmers wanted to eliminate the quit-without-saving thing, I'd think they would simply have the game automatically save on quitting, as the PC version does. The fact that they don't -- that they give you the option to do otherwise -- implies that quitting and reloading is as much a part of the game as mob farming.
2. IF creating an infinite water supply was not designed into the game, why is it that one cannot create an infinite lava supply. I'm sure the programmers would have programmed water differently IF they wanted to stop people from creating infinite water supplies.
Because you don't really need it for Lava... but you do need it (or something like it) for a seemingly endless supply of water in a sizable Lake or an Ocean. And even then, it isn't perfect for filling in areas hit along the shore line by explosions.
"Mob grinders are the last part of a mob farm and are used to kill mobs in massive amounts while also collecting all dropped items at a convenient location. They are a mechanism and can be considered a special type of trap."
If the developer considered it cheating, would they direct newcomers to a tutorial that states this?
I suspect the developer is more interested in that the player get the most entertainment out of the game as they can, and don't really care if it is considered cheating or not. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the developer is far more concerned with overall sales than they are about whether or not a game exploit is suggested on a user editable Wiki page.
Again, like I said before, If you are going to be a kettle calling the pot black, expect to be called on for being a hypocrite for it, and again, I don't care how an individual player plays their game so long as they are getting enjoyment out of it and they aren't hurting other player's enjoyment of it.
It is clear that you don't consider exploiting the game within the game itself as to be cheating, in truth, i don't really either... but I consider it no more cheating to use an in game exploit than it is to save your game before enchanting an item as a form of insurance.
So yes, I feel that it is perfectly allowed to use game exploits that you are comfortable in doing so... but don't get down on people who choose to use different exploits than you do.
Edit: I searched the Wiki, and could find no reference either way to whether saving your game and reloading to a more desirable point is considered 'cheating' or not... in fact there is precious little mentioned about game saves except some techniques on using Cloud storage (Drop Box) and recovering corrupted saved game data files.
So, just because it isn't mentioned in the Wiki, does not support that it is cheating, but conversely, it doesn't support that it isn't at the same time. But the Exit without saving option IS a feature of the game, so I'm going to have to say that that is just making use of that feature.
I can respect personal choice. When I posted I stated why I think this method is an unproductive time sink. I can totally get people want to not attach labels, and promote 'free-form' play. I don't like using it because after a long while of not using it, I feel it's not remotely necessary in my worlds. But I guess, my idea of freeform play concerns things that happen within the actual game. Using actual in game mechanics creatively is, in my opinion, is one of the really nice things about minecraft. Using the quirks of console play kinda isn't.
One thing I'd like to put out there is that if you notice that the 'original' makers of the game have created a multilayered game with complex mechanics that promote creative gameplay. Tons of tweaks have been made to balance things out. There's a maximum rate you can collect xp orbs.... Ice once made water in the nether in the PC version, then it was nerfed... Infinite water sources are a mechanic that could have been patched at any time since the official release, while the infinite lava mechanic was removed with the official PC release(1.0.0). On the PC bonemeal was nerfed too.. My point is that the ingame mechanics allow different levels of play. If you are interested in creatively using these mechanics the developers have done quite a bit to promote this and balance the game when required. So an argument that using these mechanics in gameplay is cheating seems to not have much ground to stand on.
Am I going against my freeform belief? I don't think so. I think Cire360, Upup, and particularly Akynth made compelling and interesting points. The 'compstomp' comparison is something I can understand. What I get collectively from these posts is.. Have fun and play how you want. " Which is awesome. But I do think that is something that is or should be already understood. Beyond that, I do think that doing something 'legit' is not really a label. This is a quirk of console play and on PC you either use a mod, or deal with it. At any time 4J could make enchanting persistent through saves. It's very unlikely, but who knows. I personally think that stepping outside of the game to play the game in this particular instance isn't something I would consider.... Worthy of bragging rights for lack of a better term. BUT... Everyone can and really should play however they like. No matter what I or anyone else thinks. I think it's metagaming, but it's a personal choice in single player game play. But I do think it should be frowned upon in multiplayer. In that case it's just wack.
Now.. As I look over these comments, and posts I see only one post saying anyone is a cornball. It wasn't Upup and it doesn't really matter who it was...(EDIT: it seems that posts were made while I was typing, ignore this.:)) It seems that there is a derail here, partially promoted by myself, but overly simplified by later posts. I stated why I'm not a fan of this glitch, and gave reasons. I think a comparison of this glitch to ingame methods of play is a bit stretching the subject. Because all it really does is point a finger, not give an intelligent argument or opinion. I think the posts that basically said 'play how you want' hold a lot more water than saying xp grinding is cheating. All I get from the anti-xp grind argument is that it's a point of pride to kill them yourself.. ok.. If that's the case shouldn't that reasoning equally apply to killing them 'smartly'(i.e Work smarter not harder)?
Either way.. I think having fun and playing how you want is something everyone should agree on.. And after all is said and done, this would really be a not issue if we had Anvils, and things that go with that.
Incidentally, if the programmers wanted to eliminate the quit-without-saving thing, I'd think they would simply have the game automatically save on quitting, as the PC version does. The fact that they don't -- that they give you the option to do otherwise -- implies that quitting and reloading is as much a part of the game as mob farming.
You have an interesting point here.. but I think it could be argued that this is something allowed to throttle difficulty to a particular group. Console gamers. Console gamer 'generally' are younger and/or used to a different style of play. Minecraft is pretty different than other console games. Or perhaps some behind the scenes restriction.(Which I admit is pure speculation.) At the very least, it does imply freedom of play. I'd probably stop short of including it in the same category as mob farming, but your argument is interesting.
Incidentally, if the programmers wanted to eliminate the quit-without-saving thing, I'd think they would simply have the game automatically save on quitting, as the PC version does. The fact that they don't -- that they give you the option to do otherwise -- implies that quitting and reloading is as much a part of the game as mob farming.
Doesn't that alone indicate what the game creator's intentions are regarding this issue? Board games can't actually prevent people from re-rolling the dice, but it's still considered cheating in most of them to do so. As you found out, the enchanting tutorial page goes to great lengths to discuss how the "odds" of getting a particular enchantment at a particular level of XP and on a particular grade of tool are formulated in the game. They certainly don't encourage you to just exit without saving if that "luck" that they've formulated into the game doesn't go your way. Conversely, the mob grinder page goes into quite a bit of detail on the mechanics of designing various effective traps for the various mobs in the game.
As I said, both can be considered cheating under some circumstances... and both can be considered not cheating if someone wants to make the "house rule" that way. Everyone playing in that world just has to agree what's what. I do agree with RenagadeFade that I've discovered I enjoy the game more by allowing the enchanting "odds" to play out and not exiting without saving... and I certainly do not enjoy playing with a host who keeps exiting the game without saving (bumping me in the process and undoing whatever I might have going on at the moment - eg. just in the process of beating a mob and getting a rare drop).
Totally agree with everything you said (just not re-posting it again for space saving purposes). Let me go on record saying that I don't consider MOB farming to be cheating in any way, but neither do I consider it cheating to use any of the other in-game exploits to your advantage.
If the programmers wanted to eliminate the quit-without-saving thing, I'd think they would simply have the game automatically save on quitting, as the PC version does. The fact that they don't -- that they give you the option to do otherwise -- implies that quitting and reloading is as much a part of the game as mob farming.
And Further... If the Programmers wanted to exclude people who quit without saving from Leader Boards, they would give you a warning before changing your save game file flag to Creative.
Obviously, it causes problems in multi-player, especially if there isn't a consensus among the players, but it also helps to protect the host from having their world destroyed by griefers too.
Anyway, I've said all I can on the matter, and everyone is going to have their opinion on this. I just think it is very hypocritical for a player to actively use one exploit while calling people who use another exploit cheaters.
I use exploits all the time, and I am proud of it. I've built MOB grinders, automatic underground farming, under ground forests, floating islands, daylight sensors, made automatic stone/cobble stone generators... and yes, because I don't want to waste my diamonds, I've saved my game before enchanting, and reloaded if I didn't get what I wanted. So take that as you want, you think I'm a cheater, so be it... I don't play MP online anyway, so it should never impact you.
Totally agree with everything you said (just not re-posting it again for space saving purposes). Let me go on record saying that I don't consider MOB farming to be cheating in any way, but neither do I consider it cheating to use any of the other in-game exploits to your advantage.
Including this one:
And Further... If the Programmers wanted to exclude people who quit without saving from Leader Boards, they would give you a warning before changing your save game file flag to Creative.
Obviously, it causes problems in multi-player, especially if there isn't a consensus among the players, but it also helps to protect the host from having their world destroyed by griefers too.
Anyway, I've said all I can on the matter, and everyone is going to have their opinion on this. I just think it is very hypocritical for a player to actively use one exploit while calling people who use another exploit cheaters.
I use exploits all the time, and I am proud of it. I've built MOB grinders, automatic underground farming, under ground forests, floating islands, daylight sensors, made automatic stone/cobble stone generators... and yes, because I don't want to waste my diamonds, I've saved my game before enchanting, and reloaded if I didn't get what I wanted. So take that as you want, you think I'm a cheater, so be it... I don't play MP online anyway, so it should never impact you.
Well said actually... we're finally getting down to the heart of the matter. This is a game... and as long as the people playing in that game agree then it's OK to play the game differently than what the developer/creator of it may have envisioned... but it's best to clear the air beforehand. Both can be considered cheating in some circumstances and not considered cheating in other circumstances.
I personally would like it IF there were a way to program the game such at an exit without saving while enchanting deactivates the leaderboards while allowing an exit without saving to save the world from a grief without the same deactivation... but I think that's really stretching the boundaries of what programming can do on this one. On the bottomline, if I had to choose between having an "exit without saving" option and not having it, I would choose to have it even if some people exploit it. As you mentioned, Greg, it is one of the scant few protections hosts really have from griefers.
I still think that people should really give not using this 'cheat" a try and allowing themselves to gamble on what enchantments they get. As RenagadeFade pointed out, it actually enhances the game, adds some challenge to it, and overall makes it more fun. The creators of this game HAVE put a great deal of effort and thought into how to put so much randomness into a game when computers are really anything but random. I think it deserves to be given a fair chance by people to see how well all the randomness can work in the game itself. I also hope that hosts who use this glitch WILL think a little about how it might be impacting the others who play with them in their worlds... and if there is some friend there who disagrees with it, at least refrain from it long enough for them to finish whatever it is they are working on in your world.
All that said, the developers have also put a great deal of effort into not forcing the player to adhere to a stringent set of rules... to allow the individual players to explore at little about who they are themselves and what they beliefve in. That's not a bad thing to decide on something and take a stand regardless of what other people think about it... and it doesn't necessarily make a person (like me) a hypocrite... and, Greg, I have to say I respect you even though you called me one.
... and, Greg, I have to say I respect you even though you called me one.
And I respect you as well... even though we might not always see eye to eye. I think we are all (every one of us, myself included) capable of hypocrasy from time to time due to our own skewed points of views and personal opinions, and often we may or may not see it in ourselves or others. Being guilty of occassional bouts of hypocrasy does not make one "a hypocrite" in my opinion (otherwise we'd all be guilty), and I did not mean to imply that you (or anyone else) was...although... in retrospect, I guess I did strongly suggest that, and for that I appologize... well except in regards to that 'cornball' comment that we both agree that you didn't do earlier (J/K).
This begs a further point, however... is any world that adds to the leaderboards truly a solitary one?... or is someone else being cheated out of their honest ranking by the activities of those who use this glitch?
You don't have to use this exploit of saving first before enchanting if you don't choose to, but don't complain about someone else doing that when you are yourself defending bending the game mechanics to the point of breaking to meet your own needs.
And no, the game designers didn't design the game around the idea of players MOB Farming ... players just got creative with bending the mechanics of the game to meet their whims.
Technically, it is cheating to create an infinite water supply... but the game allows it, so no one complains...
Technically, it is cheating to use a torch to auto mine a stack of sand or gravel as they fall onto it... again, no one complains about that.
I say let people play how they want too, and get off your high horse and stop with the name calling or putting down others because they want to play differently than you do.
1. When did I ever call anyone a "cornball?" I didn't.
2. IF creating an infinite water supply was not designed into the game, why is it that one cannot create an infinite lava supply. I'm sure the programmers would have programmed water differently IF they wanted to stop people from creating infinite water supplies.
3. Re ginders: The Minecraft website openly suggests that newcomers to the game consult the tutorials on the Wikii website and links to this page:
http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_Wiki
On that page is a link to this page:
http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Tutorials#Mob_Farming
and on that page is a link to this page:
http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Tutorials#Mob_Farming
which states the following:
"Mob grinders are the last part of a mob farm and are used to kill mobs in massive amounts while also collecting all dropped items at a convenient location. They are a mechanism and can be considered a special type of trap."
If the developer considered it cheating, would they direct newcomers to a tutorial that states this?
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Retired StaffWell, there is this. But I have to wonder (not caring about the leaderboards myself) how accurate the rankings are anyway? As I understand it, not only is there is no way for the leaderboards to exclude people who do things which are permitted by the game (whether it's mob farming or quitting without saving) that aren't "playing as intended", but actual hacks are used to boost people's rankings so that no non-hacking player can compete at all. If that is indeed the case, there are far greater problems than players quitting without saving. And if so, the comparison between one's own ranking and that of a total stranger is meaningless, and with friends, if relative ranking is important, one would assume that friends could agree upon rules among themselves.
There are people who do things to make Minecraft deliberately more difficult, too. For example, someone I talked with avoids using any gear better than iron (except a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian, I believe). There are plenty of people who play "vegetarian" Minecraft -- no food except apples and bread. There are people who do all sorts of things to make the game more challenging because they find it too easy. Should they get a different rank on the leaderboards because they're playing a harder game than someone on the same difficulty level but who makes different choices does? This starts to turn into a real hairball.
Minecraft isn't a straightforward game like Halo, with defined objectives and means of accomplishing them. It's a sandbox game, and trying to graft the whole leaderboard concept onto it just doesn't work well. Probably none of us plays Minecraft the same way. That's one reason why I don't buy the "you can't play this game you bought the way you want to because someone you've never met and will never meet will feel unhappy because he's not where he wants to be in a list" argument. If anything, it's a reason for doing away with the whole concept of overall leaderboards in MC to begin with.
Incidentally, if the programmers wanted to eliminate the quit-without-saving thing, I'd think they would simply have the game automatically save on quitting, as the PC version does. The fact that they don't -- that they give you the option to do otherwise -- implies that quitting and reloading is as much a part of the game as mob farming.
The golden age: it's not the game, it's you ⋆ Why Minecraft should not be harder ⋆ Spelling hints
You didn't:
Because you don't really need it for Lava... but you do need it (or something like it) for a seemingly endless supply of water in a sizable Lake or an Ocean. And even then, it isn't perfect for filling in areas hit along the shore line by explosions.
I suspect the developer is more interested in that the player get the most entertainment out of the game as they can, and don't really care if it is considered cheating or not. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the developer is far more concerned with overall sales than they are about whether or not a game exploit is suggested on a user editable Wiki page.
Again, like I said before, If you are going to be a kettle calling the pot black, expect to be called on for being a hypocrite for it, and again, I don't care how an individual player plays their game so long as they are getting enjoyment out of it and they aren't hurting other player's enjoyment of it.
It is clear that you don't consider exploiting the game within the game itself as to be cheating, in truth, i don't really either... but I consider it no more cheating to use an in game exploit than it is to save your game before enchanting an item as a form of insurance.
So yes, I feel that it is perfectly allowed to use game exploits that you are comfortable in doing so... but don't get down on people who choose to use different exploits than you do.
Edit: I searched the Wiki, and could find no reference either way to whether saving your game and reloading to a more desirable point is considered 'cheating' or not... in fact there is precious little mentioned about game saves except some techniques on using Cloud storage (Drop Box) and recovering corrupted saved game data files.
So, just because it isn't mentioned in the Wiki, does not support that it is cheating, but conversely, it doesn't support that it isn't at the same time. But the Exit without saving option IS a feature of the game, so I'm going to have to say that that is just making use of that feature.
One thing I'd like to put out there is that if you notice that the 'original' makers of the game have created a multilayered game with complex mechanics that promote creative gameplay. Tons of tweaks have been made to balance things out. There's a maximum rate you can collect xp orbs.... Ice once made water in the nether in the PC version, then it was nerfed... Infinite water sources are a mechanic that could have been patched at any time since the official release, while the infinite lava mechanic was removed with the official PC release(1.0.0). On the PC bonemeal was nerfed too.. My point is that the ingame mechanics allow different levels of play. If you are interested in creatively using these mechanics the developers have done quite a bit to promote this and balance the game when required. So an argument that using these mechanics in gameplay is cheating seems to not have much ground to stand on.
Am I going against my freeform belief? I don't think so. I think Cire360, Upup, and particularly Akynth made compelling and interesting points. The 'compstomp' comparison is something I can understand. What I get collectively from these posts is.. Have fun and play how you want. " Which is awesome. But I do think that is something that is or should be already understood. Beyond that, I do think that doing something 'legit' is not really a label. This is a quirk of console play and on PC you either use a mod, or deal with it. At any time 4J could make enchanting persistent through saves. It's very unlikely, but who knows. I personally think that stepping outside of the game to play the game in this particular instance isn't something I would consider.... Worthy of bragging rights for lack of a better term. BUT... Everyone can and really should play however they like. No matter what I or anyone else thinks. I think it's metagaming, but it's a personal choice in single player game play. But I do think it should be frowned upon in multiplayer. In that case it's just wack.
Now.. As I look over these comments, and posts I see only one post saying anyone is a cornball. It wasn't Upup and it doesn't really matter who it was...(EDIT: it seems that posts were made while I was typing, ignore this.:)) It seems that there is a derail here, partially promoted by myself, but overly simplified by later posts. I stated why I'm not a fan of this glitch, and gave reasons. I think a comparison of this glitch to ingame methods of play is a bit stretching the subject. Because all it really does is point a finger, not give an intelligent argument or opinion. I think the posts that basically said 'play how you want' hold a lot more water than saying xp grinding is cheating. All I get from the anti-xp grind argument is that it's a point of pride to kill them yourself.. ok.. If that's the case shouldn't that reasoning equally apply to killing them 'smartly'(i.e Work smarter not harder)?
Either way.. I think having fun and playing how you want is something everyone should agree on.. And after all is said and done, this would really be a not issue if we had Anvils, and things that go with that.
You have an interesting point here.. but I think it could be argued that this is something allowed to throttle difficulty to a particular group. Console gamers. Console gamer 'generally' are younger and/or used to a different style of play. Minecraft is pretty different than other console games. Or perhaps some behind the scenes restriction.(Which I admit is pure speculation.) At the very least, it does imply freedom of play. I'd probably stop short of including it in the same category as mob farming, but your argument is interesting.
Doesn't that alone indicate what the game creator's intentions are regarding this issue? Board games can't actually prevent people from re-rolling the dice, but it's still considered cheating in most of them to do so. As you found out, the enchanting tutorial page goes to great lengths to discuss how the "odds" of getting a particular enchantment at a particular level of XP and on a particular grade of tool are formulated in the game. They certainly don't encourage you to just exit without saving if that "luck" that they've formulated into the game doesn't go your way. Conversely, the mob grinder page goes into quite a bit of detail on the mechanics of designing various effective traps for the various mobs in the game.
As I said, both can be considered cheating under some circumstances... and both can be considered not cheating if someone wants to make the "house rule" that way. Everyone playing in that world just has to agree what's what. I do agree with RenagadeFade that I've discovered I enjoy the game more by allowing the enchanting "odds" to play out and not exiting without saving... and I certainly do not enjoy playing with a host who keeps exiting the game without saving (bumping me in the process and undoing whatever I might have going on at the moment - eg. just in the process of beating a mob and getting a rare drop).
Totally agree with everything you said (just not re-posting it again for space saving purposes). Let me go on record saying that I don't consider MOB farming to be cheating in any way, but neither do I consider it cheating to use any of the other in-game exploits to your advantage.
Including this one:
And Further... If the Programmers wanted to exclude people who quit without saving from Leader Boards, they would give you a warning before changing your save game file flag to Creative.
Obviously, it causes problems in multi-player, especially if there isn't a consensus among the players, but it also helps to protect the host from having their world destroyed by griefers too.
Anyway, I've said all I can on the matter, and everyone is going to have their opinion on this. I just think it is very hypocritical for a player to actively use one exploit while calling people who use another exploit cheaters.
I use exploits all the time, and I am proud of it. I've built MOB grinders, automatic underground farming, under ground forests, floating islands, daylight sensors, made automatic stone/cobble stone generators... and yes, because I don't want to waste my diamonds, I've saved my game before enchanting, and reloaded if I didn't get what I wanted. So take that as you want, you think I'm a cheater, so be it... I don't play MP online anyway, so it should never impact you.
Well said actually... we're finally getting down to the heart of the matter. This is a game... and as long as the people playing in that game agree then it's OK to play the game differently than what the developer/creator of it may have envisioned... but it's best to clear the air beforehand. Both can be considered cheating in some circumstances and not considered cheating in other circumstances.
I personally would like it IF there were a way to program the game such at an exit without saving while enchanting deactivates the leaderboards while allowing an exit without saving to save the world from a grief without the same deactivation... but I think that's really stretching the boundaries of what programming can do on this one. On the bottomline, if I had to choose between having an "exit without saving" option and not having it, I would choose to have it even if some people exploit it. As you mentioned, Greg, it is one of the scant few protections hosts really have from griefers.
I still think that people should really give not using this 'cheat" a try and allowing themselves to gamble on what enchantments they get. As RenagadeFade pointed out, it actually enhances the game, adds some challenge to it, and overall makes it more fun. The creators of this game HAVE put a great deal of effort and thought into how to put so much randomness into a game when computers are really anything but random. I think it deserves to be given a fair chance by people to see how well all the randomness can work in the game itself. I also hope that hosts who use this glitch WILL think a little about how it might be impacting the others who play with them in their worlds... and if there is some friend there who disagrees with it, at least refrain from it long enough for them to finish whatever it is they are working on in your world.
All that said, the developers have also put a great deal of effort into not forcing the player to adhere to a stringent set of rules... to allow the individual players to explore at little about who they are themselves and what they beliefve in. That's not a bad thing to decide on something and take a stand regardless of what other people think about it... and it doesn't necessarily make a person (like me) a hypocrite... and, Greg, I have to say I respect you even though you called me one.
And I respect you as well... even though we might not always see eye to eye. I think we are all (every one of us, myself included) capable of hypocrasy from time to time due to our own skewed points of views and personal opinions, and often we may or may not see it in ourselves or others. Being guilty of occassional bouts of hypocrasy does not make one "a hypocrite" in my opinion (otherwise we'd all be guilty), and I did not mean to imply that you (or anyone else) was...although... in retrospect, I guess I did strongly suggest that, and for that I appologize... well except in regards to that 'cornball' comment that we both agree that you didn't do earlier