all i'm sayin is that casey heynes is a hero... and i'd feel the same way if he'd broke that kids leg. years of bullying and no one seemed to care until he tossed that little rat on the ground.
i can tell you from experience that confidence and persistence aren't very effective. however, a good solid elbow to the nose can do wonders to educate a person about your position concerning being physically abused, if spoken language is ineffective. in fact, on that day i went from "bullied" to "not bullied".
in minecraft, all of the solutions available are "deal with it".. all of the backup and invite options work, but make hosting a game a hassle.. and they are all "deal with it" measures. there is nothing you can do to alter the behavior of some spoiled child on another part of the planet.
Casey Heynes and Richard Gale were, I believe, a teenagers (Gr. 10) when the incident occurred. As I said, one must consider the age of the child and the friend involved... and we don't know either. Also, I'm specifically saying that parents to NOT brush off the circumstances as being "not bullying" but seriously consider that even a young kid may be "right on the money" when they tell an adult that they are being bullied.
While it is, but the "kid" doesn't realize the principal can't do much but make it worse for him by telling his parents and his parents not letting him play with others anymore.
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Religion, has actually convinced people, that there's an invisible man, living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of the day, and the invisible man has a special list. Of 10 things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do ANY of these ten things he has a special place, full of fire, and smoke, and burning, and torture, and will send you there to suffer and choke and scream for all of eternity... But he still loves you.
all i'm sayin is that casey heynes is a hero... and i'd feel the same way if he'd broke that kids leg. years of bullying and no one seemed to care until he tossed that little rat on the ground.
i can tell you from experience that confidence and persistence aren't very effective. however, a good solid elbow to the nose can do wonders to educate a person about your position concerning being physically abused, if spoken language is ineffective. in fact, on that day i went from "bullied" to "not bullied".
in minecraft, all of the solutions available are "deal with it".. all of the backup and invite options work, but make hosting a game a hassle.. and they are all "deal with it" measures. there is nothing you can do to alter the behavior of some spoiled child on another part of the planet.
Addendum: Also what I said previously was that it wasn't a good idea to respond to a bully in such a way that you begin describing yourself as a bully. Casey Heynes, to my knowledge, still does not think of himself as a bully - i.e. retaliating a bully by becoming a bully himself. He considers his actions to have been done completely in immediate self-defense. The film clip bears this out. He was under immediate attack and used force to repel the attack. While some people feel that he used excessive force to repel the attack, I believe he himself at the time the attack was underway, felt that it was the only way to repel the attack. It's not that he sought out the kid to attack him to retaliate for a previous attack that had ended. Ref: Legal definition of "self-defense" - http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Defense His own belief would not necessarily have protected in court (i.e. a judge or jury would have to weigh the evidence and decide if the force was excessive or not; but if he did believe himself that he had used excessive force, it would certainly weaken his case for acting in self-defense.
Also, I believe what I said was that it wasn't a good idea to respond in such a way where the non-bully starts to describe themselves as a bully
...snip...
I think for practical purposes of this discussion, that you may have read way too much into the original poster who used the phrase to describe responding to the bully.
I suspect most of us do not consider it bullying to respond with force against a physical attack, let alone against a physical attack-style bully.
at least up until the victim now starts terrorizing the neighborhood, which as a trope, doesn't seem to be common.
In other news, things to consider from that video (and I do agree with your analysis of the Casey Haynes situation), is that Ender's Game taught everybody that the only way to stop a bully is to respond with force, and in very practical terms, once.
As we see from the Haynes video, that could have been lethal. While I applaud the concept, the reality is a lot of legal trouble.
Further things to consider, is in another school, that bully has an older brother in a gang, and he will retaliate with more lethal force. Thus the situation isn't always as simple as hurting the bully. Note, I am speaking of real gangs, who do real crime on a regular basis, not a bunch of white kids who think they're gangsta because they show some sag and listen to rap.
I think for practical purposes of this discussion, that you may have read way too much into the original poster who used the phrase to describe responding to the bully.
When I made the statement, I was not responding to the OPs post, but directly to statements made by sakredchao on September 23rd. The post you have quoted is also a direct response to sakredchao, not the OP.
I suspect most of us do not consider it bullying to respond with force against a physical attack, let alone against a physical attack-style bully.
at least up until the victim now starts terrorizing the neighborhood, which as a trope, doesn't seem to be common.
In other news, things to consider from that video (and I do agree with your analysis of the Casey Haynes situation), is that Ender's Game taught everybody that the only way to stop a bully is to respond with force, and in very practical terms, once.
As we see from the Haynes video, that could have been lethal. While I applaud the concept, the reality is a lot of legal trouble.
Further things to consider, is in another school, that bully has an older brother in a gang, and he will retaliate with more lethal force. Thus the situation isn't always as simple as hurting the bully. Note, I am speaking of real gangs, who do real crime on a regular basis, not a bunch of white kids who think they're gangsta because they show some sag and listen to rap.
The law does support responding to non-lethal force with non-lethal force. Generally, to respond to non-lethal force with lethal force is judged as being excessive force. So, IF Heynes had killed Gale with that hammer throw, he would have a tougher time convincing people that he did not intend to use lethal force. What this video clip of Heynes doesn't show that, as I recall he did, was pick up Gale and hammer throw him a second time. The legal question there is whether or not the first hammer throw effectively repelled the attack. If it had, the second hammer throw might (repeat MIGHT) have been considered excessive force. However, I do believe that the law would lean in Heynes favour anyway.
People seem to want to interpret that I'm somehow recommending that people lay down and play dead when faced with a bully. That is not what I've been saying. What I said is YOU CAN DEFEND yourself without forfeiting your values (i.e. without becoming a bully yourself). The legal concept of self-defense supports this completely. If you start describing your defensive actions as "bullying in kind" then you are weakening your own case for self-defense... which is NOT a good idea.
Evicting a bully's parents because a bully griefed a Minecraft world would, IMO, classify as an "excessive response."
Repelling an attack has nothing to do with fighting fair. It's not about being on an equal footing with the attacker. It's about maintaining your right to be free from harm. I will use whatever force is at my disposal to repel an attack completely and immediately. I will worry about the consequences after I am sure I have not placed my life and my future in the hands of a thug. You know the old saying, right? I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.
IAMBaldur888, our prisons are full of people who shouldn't be there because of something very different. I'm not going to elaborate about it here. They topic has already strayed far enough. Do a bit of research on the war on drugs if you're interested.
When I made the statement, I was not responding to the OPs post, but directly to statements made by sakredchao on September 23rd. The post you have quoted is also a direct response to sakredchao, not the OP.
Though we are not in disagreement (I have agreed with pretty much everything you said), there are misunderstandings remaining.
When I said "original poster who used the phrase to describe responding to the bully"
I was not referring to OP (which is the person who started the thread). I was referring to the first person to use the phrase about bullying the bully (which as you hunted down was sakredchao). I meant the original poster of the phrasing, not the thread starter.
the lesson being, if I fail to state that clearly enough and you can't intepret my meaning as I intended, there is no wonder the world is full of misunderstandings of greater nature.
Repelling an attack has nothing to do with fighting fair. It's not about being on an equal footing with the attacker. It's about maintaining your right to be free from harm. I will use whatever force is at my disposal to repel an attack completely and immediately. I will worry about the consequences after I am sure I have not placed my life and my future in the hands of a thug. You know the old saying, right? I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.
IAMBaldur888, our prisons are full of people who shouldn't be there because of something very different. I'm not going to elaborate about it here. They topic has already strayed far enough. Do a bit of research on the war on drugs if you're interested.
"crime defined as action that harms another" This is a quote from myself (IAM Baldur 888) above.
I didn't want to stray here either but you do see how I defined that. right?
Not all griefing is bad though me and my friends play in a world and i like clearing the land so they dubbed me a griefer at the time i had no idea what that was. Now we role play in that world my friends each have sections of the world. My friends say that's my minecraft identity. I usually live underground and i tunnel underneath each of my friends area's so the map is filled with tunnels. My friends don't mine me either too much. I consider it harmless fun.
Not all griefing is bad though me and my friends play in a world and i like clearing the land so they dubbed me a griefer at the time i had no idea what that was. Now we role play in that world my friends each have sections of the world. My friends say that's my minecraft identity. I usually live underground and i tunnel underneath each of my friends area's so the map is filled with tunnels. My friends don't mine me either too much. I consider it harmless fun.
That is not griefing or bullying. A group of friends pulling consensual pranks on each other is not griefing or bullying. Often real bullys and griefers will say it's harmless fun but it's not a mutually consensual situation. It's more about intimidation (bullys) and deception (griefers).
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although i wouldn't technically class it as bullieng it is still generally an awful thing to do. now i have griefed before but only for a good cause. for example i was on a survival world the other day with rules against griefing and stuff when the host, using host privileges, flew up and killed me and stole 7 diamonds. now this is an example of where griefing would be acseptable from my part. (and theese opportunities are few and far between). but i have had people who i have never met before join my world and break stuff for absolutely no reason. this is the kind of griefing that annoys me. its stupid and pointless. the second i found that somone on my friends list griefed i would delete them instantly. its pointless and cruel and people who grief for no reason are unable to make anything for themselves
Well griefing has finally killed multiplayer minecraft for me. I was running 3 Xboxes. Got rid of one (xbox live gold ran out) about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Still running a 24/7 server that I don't even play on anymore and absolutely nobody else is welcome; only 22 players left on this server. If we have another major griefing incident then I'm just going to cut it off. The other xbox I play solo on but honestly I don't enjoy any solo games as much as multiplayer so that will likely not last. You can see my signature for my permanent opinion of minecraft multiplayer.
It still astonishes me that such a major issue that has been an issue for years (even worse on PC I hear) has still not been addressed sufficiently. There are several tools that could be added that would at least help address the issue.
Well griefing has finally killed multiplayer minecraft for me. I was running 3 Xboxes. Got rid of one (xbox live gold ran out) about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Still running a 24/7 server that I don't even play on anymore and absolutely nobody else is welcome; only 22 players left on this server. If we have another major griefing incident then I'm just going to cut it off. The other xbox I play solo on but honestly I don't enjoy any solo games as much as multiplayer so that will likely not last. You can see my signature for my permanent opinion of minecraft multiplayer.
It still astonishes me that such a major issue that has been an issue for years (even worse on PC I hear) has still not been addressed sufficiently. There are several tools that could be added that would at least help address the issue.
Had a feeling this was where you were at with this. Sorry to hear. As I've said, I do agree that more needs to be done from a programming perspective to prevent online game griefing... and a lot more needs to be done to prevent cyberbullying and just bullying in general. It's really a rampant social problem that many people seem to "justify" all too easily.
(OP: Sorry, but griefing a little kid for using a few cuss words at you is just unacceptable behavior on your part if you''re any older than 6 and trying to dis him online, twice, even anonymously IS more indicative of an attempt to cyberbully him than anything else.)
Also, OP, you may want to note the change because it's given your game away... First, the story was about something your friend did, but now you claim the little kid was cussing at you:
he starting cussing at me because i could'nt save his lv 10 enchanted leather gear
Baldur, before giving up on the game totally, perhaps try playing multiplayer with a very select small group of closer friends. It works for me and is one major reason why I enjoy playing on the Xbox so much. You can play with friends you really know and trust in the comfort of your own living room in local offline splitscreen and not ever have to worry about any unwanted people hacking their way into your world. Although not many games are supporting System Line anymore, I think it would be really nice if Xbox Minecraft did... so that two local Xboxes could be connected offline to get to a world max of 8 players at one time without even requiring a Gold membership, let alone two. The larger online public servers on the PC really have no appeal for me.
Well griefing has finally killed multiplayer minecraft for me. I was running 3 Xboxes. Got rid of one (xbox live gold ran out) about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Still running a 24/7 server that I don't even play on anymore and absolutely nobody else is welcome; only 22 players left on this server. If we have another major griefing incident then I'm just going to cut it off. The other xbox I play solo on but honestly I don't enjoy any solo games as much as multiplayer so that will likely not last. You can see my signature for my permanent opinion of minecraft multiplayer.
It still astonishes me that such a major issue that has been an issue for years (even worse on PC I hear) has still not been addressed sufficiently. There are several tools that could be added that would at least help address the issue.
I have never played multiplayer, not even with minecraft. First because I don't want my stuff destroyed and second because I don't have a microphone, and most people don't want you to play if you don't have one.
I see Youtube videos and see how nice multiplayer can be, but I guess I have been bitten to many times in the past by bullies online (and some were suppose to be friends).
If someone says they are being bullied, I for one will believe that is what is happening to them. People don't say they are being bullied for the fun of it, because just saying you are being bullied tends to leave you open to more bullying. Which is what happened to me. Is cyber griefing bullying? Yes it is. It might not sound like it. It is not real property....but that person was proud of their creation and to destroy it without permission is WRONG.
Don't get me wrong. Sometimes we all feel like blowing up something or destroy it...but you can create your own stuff then blow it up. Doing it to someone else's is just plain WRONG. My nephew likes to blow things up. (he is 8). So I have him create his own world, then he has fun packing TNT into it and different areas, then blows it up. When he is done, we can delete the world, or he can save it to blow it up again down the road. I discuss with him that to destroy other people's work (including his sister's) is not acceptable and the only thing he should destroy is his own work if that is what he wants to do.
People that do it to other people, are waiting for a reaction from the person that they do it to. THAT is a bully.
@the_cracked_anvil - I understand your pain at that, but griefing at the host is not the way to solve the problem. It just adds to it and feeds reinforcement to the perpetrator(he in turn becomes the "victim". I would ask him why he did that and to return the diamonds. Then depending on his reaction I would either stay and be friends or leave the game and never return to his server and block him from mine.
I don't see it as bullying. It's in the game as a legitimate (but annoying...) tactic. Especially on pvp worlds, it's just part of the game. It's equivalent to getting upset about getting shot in a first person shooter...that's kinda the point. The other person is just playing the game, and you just happened to be the current target. In a world where you remove and place blocks...that's kinda the point. If you don't want to get killed, don't play a killing game. If you don't want to get griefed, don't join a world where it's possible.
Had a feeling this was where you were at with this. Sorry to hear. As I've said, I do agree that more needs to be done from a programming perspective to prevent online game griefing... and a lot more needs to be done to prevent cyberbullying and just bullying in general. It's really a rampant social problem that many people seem to "justify" all too easily. (OP: Sorry, but griefing a little kid for using a few cuss words at you is just unacceptable behavior on your part if you''re any older than 6 and trying to dis him online, twice, even anonymously IS more indicative of an attempt to cyberbully him than anything else.)
Baldur, before giving up on the game totally, perhaps try playing multiplayer with a very select small group of closer friends. It works for me and is one major reason why I enjoy playing on the Xbox so much. You can play with friends you really know and trust in the comfort of your own living room in local offline splitscreen and not ever have to worry about any unwanted people hacking their way into your world. Although not many games are supporting System Line anymore, I think it would be really nice if Xbox Minecraft did... so that two local Xboxes could be connected offline to get to a world max of 8 players at one time without even requiring a Gold membership, let alone two. The larger online public servers on the PC really have no appeal for me.
Yea been trying that but too much life stuff keeps pulling people away so I try to invite new people. Life stuff like someone gets deployed, taking 18credit hours plus work, divorce, having kids, going back to school at night and most significantly the majority of people I like to play with that have left left because of griefing.
I don't see it as bullying. It's in the game as a legitimate (but annoying...) tactic. Especially on pvp worlds, it's just part of the game. It's equivalent to getting upset about getting shot in a first person shooter...that's kinda the point. The other person is just playing the game, and you just happened to be the current target. In a world where you remove and place blocks...that's kinda the point. If you don't want to get killed, don't play a killing game. If you don't want to get griefed, don't join a world where it's possible.
No. These are not player versus player servers. A better analogy would be a soccer game where the griefer is stealing the ball from her own team and kicking it out of bounds. This is not a first person shooter game. If you still don't understand just ask and I'll try to explain it better.
Casey Heynes and Richard Gale were, I believe, a teenagers (Gr. 10) when the incident occurred. As I said, one must consider the age of the child and the friend involved... and we don't know either. Also, I'm specifically saying that parents to NOT brush off the circumstances as being "not bullying" but seriously consider that even a young kid may be "right on the money" when they tell an adult that they are being bullied.
It's always fun watching you guys debate and such. -w-
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Curse PremiumAlso, I believe what I said was that it wasn't a good idea to respond in such a way where the non-bully starts to describe themselves as a bully
Addendum: Also what I said previously was that it wasn't a good idea to respond to a bully in such a way that you begin describing yourself as a bully. Casey Heynes, to my knowledge, still does not think of himself as a bully - i.e. retaliating a bully by becoming a bully himself. He considers his actions to have been done completely in immediate self-defense. The film clip bears this out. He was under immediate attack and used force to repel the attack. While some people feel that he used excessive force to repel the attack, I believe he himself at the time the attack was underway, felt that it was the only way to repel the attack. It's not that he sought out the kid to attack him to retaliate for a previous attack that had ended. Ref: Legal definition of "self-defense" - http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Defense His own belief would not necessarily have protected in court (i.e. a judge or jury would have to weigh the evidence and decide if the force was excessive or not; but if he did believe himself that he had used excessive force, it would certainly weaken his case for acting in self-defense.
I think for practical purposes of this discussion, that you may have read way too much into the original poster who used the phrase to describe responding to the bully.
I suspect most of us do not consider it bullying to respond with force against a physical attack, let alone against a physical attack-style bully.
at least up until the victim now starts terrorizing the neighborhood, which as a trope, doesn't seem to be common.
In other news, things to consider from that video (and I do agree with your analysis of the Casey Haynes situation), is that Ender's Game taught everybody that the only way to stop a bully is to respond with force, and in very practical terms, once.
As we see from the Haynes video, that could have been lethal. While I applaud the concept, the reality is a lot of legal trouble.
Further things to consider, is in another school, that bully has an older brother in a gang, and he will retaliate with more lethal force. Thus the situation isn't always as simple as hurting the bully. Note, I am speaking of real gangs, who do real crime on a regular basis, not a bunch of white kids who think they're gangsta because they show some sag and listen to rap.
When I made the statement, I was not responding to the OPs post, but directly to statements made by sakredchao on September 23rd. The post you have quoted is also a direct response to sakredchao, not the OP.
The law does support responding to non-lethal force with non-lethal force. Generally, to respond to non-lethal force with lethal force is judged as being excessive force. So, IF Heynes had killed Gale with that hammer throw, he would have a tougher time convincing people that he did not intend to use lethal force. What this video clip of Heynes doesn't show that, as I recall he did, was pick up Gale and hammer throw him a second time. The legal question there is whether or not the first hammer throw effectively repelled the attack. If it had, the second hammer throw might (repeat MIGHT) have been considered excessive force. However, I do believe that the law would lean in Heynes favour anyway.
People seem to want to interpret that I'm somehow recommending that people lay down and play dead when faced with a bully. That is not what I've been saying. What I said is YOU CAN DEFEND yourself without forfeiting your values (i.e. without becoming a bully yourself). The legal concept of self-defense supports this completely. If you start describing your defensive actions as "bullying in kind" then you are weakening your own case for self-defense... which is NOT a good idea.
Evicting a bully's parents because a bully griefed a Minecraft world would, IMO, classify as an "excessive response."
IAMBaldur888, our prisons are full of people who shouldn't be there because of something very different. I'm not going to elaborate about it here. They topic has already strayed far enough. Do a bit of research on the war on drugs if you're interested.
Though we are not in disagreement (I have agreed with pretty much everything you said), there are misunderstandings remaining.
When I said "original poster who used the phrase to describe responding to the bully"
I was not referring to OP (which is the person who started the thread). I was referring to the first person to use the phrase about bullying the bully (which as you hunted down was sakredchao). I meant the original poster of the phrasing, not the thread starter.
the lesson being, if I fail to state that clearly enough and you can't intepret my meaning as I intended, there is no wonder the world is full of misunderstandings of greater nature.
"crime defined as action that harms another" This is a quote from myself (IAM Baldur 888) above.
I didn't want to stray here either but you do see how I defined that. right?
That is not griefing or bullying. A group of friends pulling consensual pranks on each other is not griefing or bullying. Often real bullys and griefers will say it's harmless fun but it's not a mutually consensual situation. It's more about intimidation (bullys) and deception (griefers).
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This is not true. There are people in this world that try to tell people down, manipulate, and just flat out destroy relationships when they can.
"Jake groaned and rolled onto his side."
The Master Roleplayer was born...
You know who found that interesting?
It still astonishes me that such a major issue that has been an issue for years (even worse on PC I hear) has still not been addressed sufficiently. There are several tools that could be added that would at least help address the issue.
Had a feeling this was where you were at with this. Sorry to hear. As I've said, I do agree that more needs to be done from a programming perspective to prevent online game griefing... and a lot more needs to be done to prevent cyberbullying and just bullying in general. It's really a rampant social problem that many people seem to "justify" all too easily.
(OP: Sorry, but griefing a little kid for using a few cuss words at you is just unacceptable behavior on your part if you''re any older than 6 and trying to dis him online, twice, even anonymously IS more indicative of an attempt to cyberbully him than anything else.)
Also, OP, you may want to note the change because it's given your game away... First, the story was about something your friend did, but now you claim the little kid was cussing at you:
Baldur, before giving up on the game totally, perhaps try playing multiplayer with a very select small group of closer friends. It works for me and is one major reason why I enjoy playing on the Xbox so much. You can play with friends you really know and trust in the comfort of your own living room in local offline splitscreen and not ever have to worry about any unwanted people hacking their way into your world. Although not many games are supporting System Line anymore, I think it would be really nice if Xbox Minecraft did... so that two local Xboxes could be connected offline to get to a world max of 8 players at one time without even requiring a Gold membership, let alone two. The larger online public servers on the PC really have no appeal for me.
I have never played multiplayer, not even with minecraft. First because I don't want my stuff destroyed and second because I don't have a microphone, and most people don't want you to play if you don't have one.
I see Youtube videos and see how nice multiplayer can be, but I guess I have been bitten to many times in the past by bullies online (and some were suppose to be friends).
If someone says they are being bullied, I for one will believe that is what is happening to them. People don't say they are being bullied for the fun of it, because just saying you are being bullied tends to leave you open to more bullying. Which is what happened to me. Is cyber griefing bullying? Yes it is. It might not sound like it. It is not real property....but that person was proud of their creation and to destroy it without permission is WRONG.
Don't get me wrong. Sometimes we all feel like blowing up something or destroy it...but you can create your own stuff then blow it up. Doing it to someone else's is just plain WRONG. My nephew likes to blow things up. (he is 8). So I have him create his own world, then he has fun packing TNT into it and different areas, then blows it up. When he is done, we can delete the world, or he can save it to blow it up again down the road. I discuss with him that to destroy other people's work (including his sister's) is not acceptable and the only thing he should destroy is his own work if that is what he wants to do.
People that do it to other people, are waiting for a reaction from the person that they do it to. THAT is a bully.
@the_cracked_anvil - I understand your pain at that, but griefing at the host is not the way to solve the problem. It just adds to it and feeds reinforcement to the perpetrator(he in turn becomes the "victim". I would ask him why he did that and to return the diamonds. Then depending on his reaction I would either stay and be friends or leave the game and never return to his server and block him from mine.
Yea been trying that but too much life stuff keeps pulling people away so I try to invite new people. Life stuff like someone gets deployed, taking 18credit hours plus work, divorce, having kids, going back to school at night and most significantly the majority of people I like to play with that have left left because of griefing.
No. These are not player versus player servers. A better analogy would be a soccer game where the griefer is stealing the ball from her own team and kicking it out of bounds. This is not a first person shooter game. If you still don't understand just ask and I'll try to explain it better.