Oh Jeezzz.... stop the world, I want to get off. Seriously. I'm so tired of the term "Bullying". Some of you guys really need to suck it up a bit. I hate to think what type of people this teenage generation is going to grow up to be. A bunch of whiny, pant-wetters who cry to mummy if someone hurts their feelings. If your whole world goes to bits over what someone may have done to you in a video game, then you're going to have a very hard time dealing with actual life. Society needs to stop pandering to this. For gods sake, teach your kids to show some internal fortitude. Life gets a lot harder out in the real world.
Even mentioning things such as rape and murder in the same sentence as griefing in minecraft is evidence of how little actual life experience some of you people have.
Next time someone griefs your minecraft world, how about instead of flying into a juvenile rage and screaming for your mother, you instead consider some of the hardships and suffering humanity has endured throughout history and try and gain a little perspective. Your child has not just been murdered, you have not been forced from your home at gunpoint, you have not been sent to death camps to be gassed and buried in a ditch.
Kick & ban the person, then revert to an earlier save. How hard is that?
Kick & ban the person, then revert to an earlier save.
Good advice for how to responding to a bullying attempt through griefing. It still doesn't change whether or not the attempt was to bully or not, but IF it was a bullying attempt, it does not give the person attempting to bullying the satisfaction of isolating their "target" from the friendship group he's in. The bad advice being given frequently here is to "just play single-player" which does serve to make the person who is being bullied by griefing to feel "unworthy" and further isolated from their friendship group.
Whether or not we adults should fairly expect a "little kid" to have the knowledge and wherewithal to make backups of their worlds before each online session is another question. Also, it doesn't solve the issue for 24/7 servers, in which all progress by everyone on the server would be undone by reverting to an earlier backup save regardless of who on the server was the target of the griefer. For those who operate such servers that's a difficult question to answer - Does one undo the damage of griefing to one person's build by erasing all the progress another person on that server made at the same time as the griefing was taking place somewhere else on the map?
Oh Jeezzz.... stop the world, I want to get off. Seriously. I'm so tired of the term "Bullying". Some of you guys really need to suck it up a bit. I hate to think what type of people this teenage generation is going to grow up to be. A bunch of whiny, pant-wetters who cry to mummy if someone hurts their feelings. If your whole world goes to bits over what someone may have done to you in a video game, then you're going to have a very hard time dealing with actual life. Society needs to stop pandering to this. For gods sake, teach your kids to show some internal fortitude. Life gets a lot harder out in the real world.
Even mentioning things such as rape and murder in the same sentence as griefing in minecraft is evidence of how little actual life experience some of you people have.
Next time someone griefs your minecraft world, how about instead of flying into a juvenile rage and screaming for your mother, you instead consider some of the hardships and suffering humanity has endured throughout history and try and gain a little perspective. Your child has not just been murdered, you have not been forced from your home at gunpoint, you have not been sent to death camps to be gassed and buried in a ditch.
Kick & ban the person, then revert to an earlier save. How hard is that?
Wrong. IT MAY BE BULLYING. Saying it is not bullying is as inaccurate as saying it is bullying and equally misconstrues what I've been saying.
It IS a game, yes; but games are often utilized as tools by bullies to bully others. In this game, it depends on what the person doing the griefing intends to accomplish by griefing. If they intend to harass, embarrass, cause personal pain, belittle or harm the person being griefed, then griefing in a game become bullying via this game. In the scenario set up by the OP, since we do not know the griefer's intent in griefing the little kid, no one can assess the situation with the little amount of information given.
The OP's simple question is not accurately answerable by anyone here. Worse, the OP's post itself could be a further attempt to harrass or embarrass this little kid online... which would make the post itself an attempt at cyberbullying.
I feel bad if you have kids or want kids. They will literally have absolutely no sense of overcoming the ~*great hardships of getting their house destroyed in Minecraft*~
I feel bad if you have kids or want kids. They will literally have absolutely no sense of overcoming the ~*great hardships of getting their house destroyed in Minecraft*~
I have kids and "grandkids" (my own and others who I have taken a lot of responsibility for raising)... and they are terrific adults who HAVE overcome much adversity in their lives and are all socially successful contributors to society. None of them would consider it trying to teach someone else about overcoming hardship by griefing their house in Minecraft. If you think that brushing off bullying (if and when it occurs) by just saying "it's not bullying" and telling your kids just to "suck it up"... and therein allowing bullies to isolate them from their friends... makes them stronger, I feel bad for your kids. Also, if you think you're doing your kid that is bullying someone a favor by agreeing with them that "it's not bullying" (i.e. allowing them to rationalize their own behavior), I urge you to think again as well:
"Most bullies do not just "outgrow" their bullying behaviors when they get older. Instead, the aggressive behavior continues into adulthood. A study conducted by psychologist Dan Olweus of Norway found that 60% of students in Scandinavian countries who were classified as bullies in 6th through 9th grade had one or more incidents of being convicted of a crime by the time they were 24 years old. Also, these bullies were four or more times as likely as nonbullies to be involved in numerous convictions of crimes. Another study showed that by the time they were 30 years old, one out of 4 bullies had a criminal record."
If you were renting from me and griefed my minecraft world I would evict you in the real world with absolutely no hesitation or remorse.
Really? REALLY? do you not realize that would put you on a level LOWER than the griefer? I mean think about it, they cause a virtual problem, that can be fixed if you back up your worlds, and you have just put a family on the street. Would that not be worse than someone breaking or burning virtual structures, or stealing virtual items that can be replaced?
I think griefing is just going to be a part of minecraft, Ive been griefed but I was like oh well, *replaces world with backup copy, if you are allowing yourself to be bothered by this stuff you need to take a hard look in the mirror, its virual stuff, you technically lose it as soon as you turn your computer/console off, because then it becomes a string of 0s and 1s stored on your hard drive. Not saying I condone grifing, or that I am one of them myself, but come on, its just a game.
Really? REALLY? do you not realize that would put you on a level LOWER than the griefer? I mean think about it, they cause a virtual problem, that can be fixed if you back up your worlds, and you have just put a family on the street. Would that not be worse than someone breaking or burning virtual structures, or stealing virtual items that can be replaced?
I have a lot of experience with tenants. Enough to know red flags when I see them. Someone that griefs (deliberately causes harm to another for the pleasure of causing pain) is someone I do not want on my property.
As for the numerous statements of it's just a game: Minecraft is a multimillion dollar industry still in a growth stage. And games are important for character development. Learning to work together to accomplish specific goals. Whether that's a football(soccer) league for 8 year olds, or boot camp at Parris Island, or high school baseball. Even corporations have team building exercises. Yes it's a game and as a game it is an opportunity for character development.
As for the idea that virtual games don't matter:
“Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.”~Lao Tzu
This whole topic is like saying if you play Call of Duty you're a serial killer or something like that. Which is stupid. I wholeheartedly understand where bullying could be WRONG, but Minecraft also has tons of features to avoid it, and if you don't take those precautions then that's your own fault, whatever. I don't think it's bullying when someone does something so easily avoidable and FIXABLE on a video game, maybe if he called him names or something but holy eff he just did what every player does every once in a while. He didn't ACTUALLY do anything to his ACTUAL house or kill his whole family, the guy's fine.
Good advice for how to responding to a bullying attempt through griefing. It still doesn't change whether or not the attempt was to bully or not, but IF it was a bullying attempt, it does not give the person attempting to bullying the satisfaction of isolating their "target" from the friendship group he's in. The bad advice being given frequently here is to "just play single-player" which does serve to make the person who is being bullied by griefing to feel "unworthy" and further isolated from their friendship group.
Whether or not we adults should fairly expect a "little kid" to have the knowledge and wherewithal to make backups of their worlds before each online session is another question.
at what age should adults monitor the online activities of their kids? if they are too young to be able to make a backup, they are probably too young to be called racial epithets on xbl without a parent around to help them process the experience.
the other half of the "play alone" option is to find people who aren't jerks to play with.
it takes time, but it's doable... and even then, if it's a vibrant community, jerks will still come in on occasion.
while it's not very nice when another kid comes and pushes down your blocks, i don't know how anyone can stop it from happening. perhaps a certain amount of learning to take things in stride would be a beneficial thing. it doesn't make the block pusher any less of a jerk, but it makes the response to the situation more appropriate.
at what age should adults monitor the online activities of their kids? if they are too young to be able to make a backup, they are probably too young to be called racial epithets on xbl without a parent around to help them process the experience.
the other half of the "play alone" option is to find people who aren't jerks to play with.
it takes time, but it's doable... and even then, if it's a vibrant community, jerks will still come in on occasion.
while it's not very nice when another kid comes and pushes down your blocks, i don't know how anyone can stop it from happening. perhaps a certain amount of learning to take things in stride would be a beneficial thing. it doesn't make the block pusher any less of a jerk, but it makes the response to the situation more appropriate.
The OP refers to a "little kid"... so the question of how old this child is and, therefore, how capable he/she is of understanding the need to make a backup before each online session is an unkown here. Again, my main point is that no one here other than the "little kid" and the griefer are in a position to accurately assess whether or not this incidence of griefing was bullying. According to the OP, the "little kid" does believe he/she was being bullied[ whereas, the griefer's intent in griefing is not stated.
I don't disagree with training childre to take some things in stride. What I said is that a parent just dismissing it as "not bullying" when it might have been bullying is not helpful to that process, regardless of whether or not that parent is the parent of the child attempting to bully or the child who believes they have been bullied. Both the child doing the bullying and the child being bullied have to learn to honestly recognize when bullying is occurring before either of them can take appropriate steps to either stop themselves from bullying others or to protect themselves from being bullied (without ceasing to play with their friends). Going off to play by oneself when what one wants to do is play with friends IS NOT "taking it in stride." Likewise, telling a "little kid" to "suck it up" and "play single-player" instead is not teaching that child anything valuable. It is allowing the bully to achieve the goal of socially isolating the victim from their friends.
at what age should adults monitor the online activities of their kids? if they are too young to be able to make a backup, they are probably too young to be called racial epithets on xbl without a parent around to help them process the experience.
the other half of the "play alone" option is to find people who aren't jerks to play with.
it takes time, but it's doable... and even then, if it's a vibrant community, jerks will still come in on occasion.
while it's not very nice when another kid comes and pushes down your blocks, i don't know how anyone can stop it from happening. perhaps a certain amount of learning to take things in stride would be a beneficial thing. it doesn't make the block pusher any less of a jerk, but it makes the response to the situation more appropriate.
The term kid seems very subjective. Where I am in life anyone under 25 is 'a kid' with exceptions for experience and mature behavior. But I have many adult tenants that are incapable of managing simple life task. Just this week I had to evict a male over 30 because in doing some electrical work I found a room full of trash in bags that they had not bothered to take outside to the city trash can for pickup. It still surprises me the inability of some 'adults' to not take responsibility. And more than once I have gone to collect rent only to have a 40+ year old tenant tell me that they didn't have the money... while they are literally standing there with cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other. But I digress...
The tools available in the minecraft are not sufficient to avoid griefing if you want to play with other people. Which is sad because things like that can hurt the bottom line of the corporation and limit it's potential growth. Minecraft still has so much potential but if they are not going to give us real griefing tools then how many are just going to stop playing? Even simple things like a time stamp so the host can know who and when people were in the game would help.
I'm an all or nothing kind of player. I just got rid of one xbox this week because the gold live expired and it's just not worth investing more cash into a system that is too easily griefed. Still have 2 xboxs that I run minecraft on. At one time both were 24/7 and now only 1 is. And this week I have kicked 10 more people trying to boot the griefers. I am only sure about 2 as being griefers. If you have zip drive saves like me then whenever you get griefed if you go to the zip drive save then other people lose their work. And people leave over that.
Sometimes you just have to wonder why corporations set up a system like this. In COD if someone is being childish you may lose 10 or 15 minutes of game time and go to another lobby. In minecraft you can lose hundreds of hours collectively on a 24/7 server. And why invest in a new system like PS4 or xbox one if there are still going to be the same issues?
And zip drive saves take time. For me to overwrite the zip drive save I have to make sure the map hasn't been griefed so it can take an hour to travel around the map checking houses, chest, spawners, the nether etc. When I have to do that twice a day then it becomes more of a hassle than a game.
well, yeah, it's not right.. but how do you get a bully to stop? i'm an adult (some days). i have to deal with adult jerks. adult jerks who will get violent.. and here's the kicker. no one cares. police don't care. the business association where it takes place (regularly) does not care. no one cares. come to think of it, it was about the same when my cousin was raped, shot 9 times and left dead in the desert. police tell us, "we think we know who did it, but there's nothing we can do."
same on xbl with MC.. microsoft doesn't care because jerks pay for xbl and are their regular customers. if mojang cares, they are unable to do something about it because any system implemented could be used again by bullies to be jerks. blacklists, whitelists, etc.
i was bullied often when i was younger.. the best solution i found after various trial and error, whoop the hell out of the bully. that's right.. the best solution i found was to bully bullies. i really wish there were a better way, unfortunately people can only communicate in a language they are fleunt in, and violence is a language.. however, that only works for a physically violent bully. someone who is bullying in a mental or emotional way, needs to be coped with. those people are hardwired to be jerks. i know of no way to stop someone from being a jerk.. and if they aren't hitting you or damaging your property, deal with it.
there are plenty of ways to laugh off a jerk if they are just throwing words at you. and really those people are doing you a favor, how else were you to know those people were not worth the time of day? what better metric is there to start determining who is worth hanging out with. jerks have the kindness to come up to you and say, "i'm a jerk, probably best to not be my friend because i'm mean and self absorbed."
and again, where are the parents of children these days? too zoned out on beer, television and porn to pay attention to ther kids? why is this random child threatening to tell their principal? because that's the most involved adult in their lives? it's asinine to think you can turn an 8 year old loose on xbl and provide a child friendly experience. well, if not asinine, at least it is naive.
it's one thing to identify bullying.. it is entirely another to figure out a way to get hardwired jerks (raised by generations of hardwired jerks) to not be jerks.
The term kid seems very subjective. Where I am in life anyone under 25 is 'a kid' with exceptions for experience and mature behavior. But I have many adult tenants that are incapable of managing simple life task. Just this week I had to evict a male over 30 because in doing some electrical work I found a room full of trash in bags that they had not bothered to take outside to the city trash can for pickup. It still surprises me the inability of some 'adults' to not take responsibility. And more than once I have gone to collect rent only to have a 40+ year old tenant tell me that they didn't have the money... while they are literally standing there with cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other.
i'm not trying to defend griefers or bullies, i'm just suggesting that not all inappropriate behaviors are "bully" behaviors. these tenant examples are more akin to laziness and irresponsibility than bullying.
want a good example of bully culture? look at the police. they use initmidation, violence, threats, etc to isolate and control people. if you break it down behavior by behavior, they are pretty bad offenders..
well, yeah, it's not right.. but how do you get a bully to stop? i'm an adult (some days). i have to deal with adult jerks. adult jerks who will get violent.. and here's the kicker. no one cares. police don't care. the business association where it takes place (regularly) does not care. no one cares. come to think of it, it was about the same when my cousin was raped, shot 9 times and left dead in the desert. police tell us, "we think we know who did it, but there's nothing we can do."
same on xbl with MC.. microsoft doesn't care because jerks pay for xbl and are their regular customers. if mojang cares, they are unable to do something about it because any system implemented could be used again by bullies to be jerks. blacklists, whitelists, etc.
i was bullied often when i was younger.. the best solution i found after various trial and error, whoop the hell out of the bully. that's right.. the best solution i found was to bully bullies. i really wish there were a better way, unfortunately people can only communicate in a language they are fleunt in, and violence is a language.. however, that only works for a physically violent bully. someone who is bullying in a mental or emotional way, needs to be coped with. those people are hardwired to be jerks. i know of no way to stop someone from being a jerk.. and if they aren't hitting you or damaging your property, deal with it.
there are plenty of ways to laugh off a jerk if they are just throwing words at you. and really those people are doing you a favor, how else were you to know those people were not worth the time of day? what better metric is there to start determining who is worth hanging out with. jerks have the kindness to come up to you and say, "i'm a jerk, probably best to not be my friend because i'm mean and self absorbed."
and again, where are the parents of children these days? too zoned out on beer, television and porn to pay attention to ther kids? why is this random child threatening to tell their principal? because that's the most involved adult in their lives? it's asinine to think you can turn an 8 year old loose on xbl and provide a child friendly experience. well, if not asinine, at least it is naive.
it's one thing to identify bullying.. it is entirely another to figure out a way to get hardwired jerks (raised by generations of hardwired jerks) to not be jerks.
best of luck~
There are two key factors in getting a bully to back off - Confidence and persistence and a third is maintaining your friendship network. To be confident in yourself, it's probably not the best thing to go so far in defending yourself as to wind up describing yourself as a bully. You can hold onto your own good values and still persistently defend yourself, your beliefs, and your friends.
In Minecraft that would mean 1) Learn to take that backup of your world before each play session and save it to a separate device. It's also a good idea (if the world is really important to you) to keep a couple of the previous backups. That way if something goes horribly wrong with the "in use" world and the back up as well, you can decide to lose just a little more of your progress and revert to the earlier backup.
2) When inviting people you don't really know to play Minecraft with you, consider setting up a fresh world to play with them in. That way, you don't have any emotional investment in that world. If the people you invited into that empty world are not bullies and you're not bullying them, you will all likely build up a somewhat equal emotional investment in that world over time.
3) Set out a "rule" that if someone does cross the line and grief another player's work, the world will be saved and shut down. (I know this sounds odd, but I do have a reason for saving the griefed world.) In the "rule" indicate that the player who griefed will simply not be invited back - ever, but that the remaining players can then vote whether it is the griefed world that gets reloaded or the backup that gets loaded. This makes it a community decision to either lose the progress that was made while the world was being griefed by loading the backup or saving that progress and rebuilding the griefed area. That way, instead of the host giving up multiplayer play and isolating themselves to "safe" single-player worlds, they've created an arena for building a solid friendship circle. No whining, no escalation of nasty behaviors... just clear cut enforcement of a pre-agreed upon rule. (NB: A little kid will probably need parental or an older sibling's help to pull this off effectively.)
There are two key factors in getting a bully to back off - Confidence and persistence and a third is maintaining your friendship network. To be confident in yourself, it's probably not the best thing to go so far in defending yourself as to wind up describing yourself as a bully. You can hold onto your own good values and still persistently defend yourself, your beliefs, and your friends.
In Minecraft that would mean 1) Learn to take that backup of your world before each play session and save it to a separate device. It's also a good idea (if the world is really important to you) to keep a couple of the previous backups. That way if something goes horribly wrong with the "in use" world and the back up as well, you can decide to lose just a little more of your progress and revert to the earlier backup.
2) When inviting people you don't really know to play Minecraft with you, consider setting up a fresh world to play with them in. That way, you don't have any emotional investment in that world. If the people you invited into that empty world are not bullies and you're not bullying them, you will all likely build up a somewhat equal emotional investment in that world over time.
3) Set out a "rule" that if someone does cross the line and grief another player's work, the world will be saved and shut down. (I know this sounds odd, but I do have a reason for saving the griefed world.) In the "rule" indicate that the player who griefed will simply not be invited back - ever, but that the remaining players can then vote whether it is the griefed world that gets reloaded or the backup that gets loaded. This makes it a community decision to either lose the progress that was made while the world was being griefed by loading the backup or saving that progress and rebuilding the griefed area. That way, instead of the host giving up multiplayer play and isolating themselves to "safe" single-player worlds, they've created an arena for building a solid friendship circle. No whining, no escalation of nasty behaviors... just clear cut enforcement of a pre-agreed upon rule. (NB: A little kid will probably need parental or an older sibling's help to pull this off effectively.)
Knowing the position you're coming from, I'm going to respond by saying "measured" - not naive. You've been proposing treating everyone who griefs as though they are hardened criminals. While some bullies do develop additional issues that lead to more serious offences (25% to 60% of the time, depending on which of the two studies referenced in the article I referenced above), there are the other 40% to 75% out there who do not. That's a high enough percentage for me to be of the opinion that recommending drawing and quartering all bullies as sociopaths is also not a helpful solution to Minecraft griefing (which is also bullying only some of the time since there are incidences of people who have merely played an innocent joke gone wrong).
Again, one must also consider the ages of who might be involved. Children as young a 4 years old do play this game. Would you seriously evict a 4-year-old and his parents for griefing your server one time? or would you at least make an effort to talk once with the parents first? Would you throw a 4-year-old in boot camp?
Knowing the position you're coming from, I'm going to respond by saying "measured" - not naive. You've been proposing treating everyone who griefs as though they are hardened criminals. While some bullies do develop additional issues that lead to more serious offences (25% to 60% of the time, depending on which of the two studies referenced in the article I referenced above), there are the other 40% to 75% out there who do not. That's a high enough percentage for me to be of the opinion that recommending drawing and quartering all bullies as sociopaths is also not a helpful solution to Minecraft griefing (which is also bullying only some of the time since there are incidences of people who have merely played an innocent joke gone wrong).
Again, one must also consider the ages of who might be involved. Children as young a 4 years old do play this game. Would you seriously evict a 4-year-old and his parents for griefing your server one time? or would you at least make an effort to talk once with the parents first? Would you throw a 4-year-old in boot camp?
LOL. I kind of want to say 4 year old bootcamp becaused based on the (hundreds?) of kids soccer games I have seen that would be hilarious.
Well this all goes back to definitions of griefing. The griefer I'm talking about is someone that specifically gets pleasure from causing someone harm. I don't know any 4 year olds capable of griefing because of a basic lack of understanding. Plus from my personal experience I'm talking about 18+ (or for this thread people that are cognizant of their actions and their effect). People that function, and take action, based on deriving pleasure from others pain is broken, wrong and immoral. Whether they go on to acquire a criminal record or not is not the issue. The issue is consequences. When negative actions have little or no consequences compared to the damage done then that lack of correction leads people to continue engaging in negative activity and increase it.
The purpose of punishment is correction. That needs to be immediate and effective to work. The country I live in (USA) has more people in prison than any other nation. Including countries like Communist China with more than 4 times the population. And yet we are not crime free or even low crime. But that is partially because consequences are not immediate, effective or universal. Locking people in a cage doesn't make them better people. It makes them even more likely to offend again based on inability to get a job with a criminal record. Punishments need to be swift, increasing and sever.
At a certain age and in lesser crimes a boot camp could adjust behavior. What age group is this a good option for? Somewhere around puberty 12 to 16 up to maybe 30 or 40. Younger than that won't get it and those older probably won't change. Long term minimal punishments like 10 years in a prison do not help society or the individual. People sitting on death row for 17 years (average in USA) does not deter crime.
So just like in minecraft minimal crimes (crime defined as action that harms another) should have punishment directed towards correcting behavior like boot camps. Medium crimes could be prison sentences (hard gulag type labor) up to maybe a year. Sever crimes should be dealt with immediately with a permanent solution.
So yea an 18 year old that derives pleasure from hurting another and continues engage in harmful behaviors repeatedly I would put them in boot camp. Maybe 8 to 20 weeks. They would come out fit, disciplined and teamwork minded.
LOL. I kind of want to say 4 year old bootcamp becaused based on the (hundreds?) of kids soccer games I have seen that would be hilarious.
Well this all goes back to definitions of griefing. The griefer I'm talking about is someone that specifically gets pleasure from causing someone harm. I don't know any 4 year olds capable of griefing because of a basic lack of understanding. Plus from my personal experience I'm talking about 18+ (or for this thread people that are cognizant of their actions and their effect). People that function, and take action, based on deriving pleasure from others pain is broken, wrong and immoral. Whether they go on to acquire a criminal record or not is not the issue. The issue is consequences. When negative actions have little or no consequences compared to the damage done then that lack of correction leads people to continue engaging in negative activity and increase it.
The purpose of punishment is correction. That needs to be immediate and effective to work. The country I live in (USA) has more people in prison than any other nation. Including countries like Communist China with more than 4 times the population. And yet we are not crime free or even low crime. But that is partially because consequences are not immediate, effective or universal. Locking people in a cage doesn't make them better people. It makes them even more likely to offend again based on inability to get a job with a criminal record. Punishments need to be swift, increasing and sever.
At a certain age and in lesser crimes a boot camp could adjust behavior. What age group is this a good option for? Somewhere around puberty 12 to 16 up to maybe 30 or 40. Younger than that won't get it and those older probably won't change. Long term minimal punishments like 10 years in a prison do not help society or the individual. People sitting on death row for 17 years (average in USA) does not deter crime.
So just like in minecraft minimal crimes (crime defined as action that harms another) should have punishment directed towards correcting behavior like boot camps. Medium crimes could be prison sentences (hard gulag type labor) up to maybe a year. Sever crimes should be dealt with immediately with a permanent solution.
So yea an 18 year old that derives pleasure from hurting another and continues engage in harmful behaviors repeatedly I would put them in boot camp. Maybe 8 to 20 weeks. They would come out fit, disciplined and teamwork minded.
As others have indicated above me, the specific definition of "griefing" is far more limited than the overall definition of "bullying." The notion of virtual harm vs. real physical harm is also somewhat different for some people vs. others. The younger the child involved the more difficult it probably is for them to differentiate between the two. A young child IS quite capable of griefing... without actually intentionally bullying. They are also quite capable of intentionally bullying; however, this is when a measured response from the person who has been griefed has the greatest potential to stop a child from become a future adult bully.. and perhaps even a future criminal.
With an older teen or adult, I agree that it is far less likely that banning them and having the server move on without them will ever successfully convert them from being a bully. Boot camps for offenders do often enter into the discourse on that issue. However, media images of military personnel inflicting grievous injuries on prisoners does not make me optimistic that every soldier that emerges from boot camp arbitrarily emerges as the perfect non-bullying team player.
However, the permanent Minecraft-based solution you ask for server crimes is already built into my suggestion - Use invite only and set a rule ahead of time that anyone caught griefing will be immediately kicked from the server and never invited back... ever. Then let the remaining team decide/vote whether they undo the damage by either manually repairing it or by going back to an earlier save. (NB - I realize that invite only is not really practical for a 24/7 server. There is a suggestion going that I do support for specific worlds and that is some form of Trusted Players List.)
There are two key factors in getting a bully to back off - Confidence and persistence and a third is maintaining your friendship network. To be confident in yourself, it's probably not the best thing to go so far in defending yourself as to wind up describing yourself as a bully. You can hold onto your own good values and still persistently defend yourself, your beliefs, and your friends.
all i'm sayin is that casey heynes is a hero... and i'd feel the same way if he'd broke that kids leg. years of bullying and no one seemed to care until he tossed that little rat on the ground.
i can tell you from experience that confidence and persistence aren't very effective. however, a good solid elbow to the nose can do wonders to educate a person about your position concerning being physically abused, if spoken language is ineffective. in fact, on that day i went from "bullied" to "not bullied".
in minecraft, all of the solutions available are "deal with it".. all of the backup and invite options work, but make hosting a game a hassle.. and they are all "deal with it" measures. there is nothing you can do to alter the behavior of some spoiled child on another part of the planet.
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Even mentioning things such as rape and murder in the same sentence as griefing in minecraft is evidence of how little actual life experience some of you people have.
Next time someone griefs your minecraft world, how about instead of flying into a juvenile rage and screaming for your mother, you instead consider some of the hardships and suffering humanity has endured throughout history and try and gain a little perspective. Your child has not just been murdered, you have not been forced from your home at gunpoint, you have not been sent to death camps to be gassed and buried in a ditch.
Kick & ban the person, then revert to an earlier save. How hard is that?
And for the love of humanity, SUCK.IT.UP!!
Good advice for how to responding to a bullying attempt through griefing. It still doesn't change whether or not the attempt was to bully or not, but IF it was a bullying attempt, it does not give the person attempting to bullying the satisfaction of isolating their "target" from the friendship group he's in. The bad advice being given frequently here is to "just play single-player" which does serve to make the person who is being bullied by griefing to feel "unworthy" and further isolated from their friendship group.
Whether or not we adults should fairly expect a "little kid" to have the knowledge and wherewithal to make backups of their worlds before each online session is another question. Also, it doesn't solve the issue for 24/7 servers, in which all progress by everyone on the server would be undone by reverting to an earlier backup save regardless of who on the server was the target of the griefer. For those who operate such servers that's a difficult question to answer - Does one undo the damage of griefing to one person's build by erasing all the progress another person on that server made at the same time as the griefing was taking place somewhere else on the map?
Will you marry me?
I feel bad if you have kids or want kids. They will literally have absolutely no sense of overcoming the ~*great hardships of getting their house destroyed in Minecraft*~
I have kids and "grandkids" (my own and others who I have taken a lot of responsibility for raising)... and they are terrific adults who HAVE overcome much adversity in their lives and are all socially successful contributors to society. None of them would consider it trying to teach someone else about overcoming hardship by griefing their house in Minecraft. If you think that brushing off bullying (if and when it occurs) by just saying "it's not bullying" and telling your kids just to "suck it up"... and therein allowing bullies to isolate them from their friends... makes them stronger, I feel bad for your kids. Also, if you think you're doing your kid that is bullying someone a favor by agreeing with them that "it's not bullying" (i.e. allowing them to rationalize their own behavior), I urge you to think again as well:
"Most bullies do not just "outgrow" their bullying behaviors when they get older. Instead, the aggressive behavior continues into adulthood. A study conducted by psychologist Dan Olweus of Norway found that 60% of students in Scandinavian countries who were classified as bullies in 6th through 9th grade had one or more incidents of being convicted of a crime by the time they were 24 years old. Also, these bullies were four or more times as likely as nonbullies to be involved in numerous convictions of crimes. Another study showed that by the time they were 30 years old, one out of 4 bullies had a criminal record."
http://library.thinkquest.org/07aug/00117/bullyingconsequences.html
Really? REALLY? do you not realize that would put you on a level LOWER than the griefer? I mean think about it, they cause a virtual problem, that can be fixed if you back up your worlds, and you have just put a family on the street. Would that not be worse than someone breaking or burning virtual structures, or stealing virtual items that can be replaced?
I have a lot of experience with tenants. Enough to know red flags when I see them. Someone that griefs (deliberately causes harm to another for the pleasure of causing pain) is someone I do not want on my property.
As for the numerous statements of it's just a game: Minecraft is a multimillion dollar industry still in a growth stage. And games are important for character development. Learning to work together to accomplish specific goals. Whether that's a football(soccer) league for 8 year olds, or boot camp at Parris Island, or high school baseball. Even corporations have team building exercises. Yes it's a game and as a game it is an opportunity for character development.
As for the idea that virtual games don't matter:
“Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.” ~Lao Tzu
at what age should adults monitor the online activities of their kids? if they are too young to be able to make a backup, they are probably too young to be called racial epithets on xbl without a parent around to help them process the experience.
the other half of the "play alone" option is to find people who aren't jerks to play with.
it takes time, but it's doable... and even then, if it's a vibrant community, jerks will still come in on occasion.
while it's not very nice when another kid comes and pushes down your blocks, i don't know how anyone can stop it from happening. perhaps a certain amount of learning to take things in stride would be a beneficial thing. it doesn't make the block pusher any less of a jerk, but it makes the response to the situation more appropriate.
The OP refers to a "little kid"... so the question of how old this child is and, therefore, how capable he/she is of understanding the need to make a backup before each online session is an unkown here. Again, my main point is that no one here other than the "little kid" and the griefer are in a position to accurately assess whether or not this incidence of griefing was bullying. According to the OP, the "little kid" does believe he/she was being bullied[ whereas, the griefer's intent in griefing is not stated.
I don't disagree with training childre to take some things in stride. What I said is that a parent just dismissing it as "not bullying" when it might have been bullying is not helpful to that process, regardless of whether or not that parent is the parent of the child attempting to bully or the child who believes they have been bullied. Both the child doing the bullying and the child being bullied have to learn to honestly recognize when bullying is occurring before either of them can take appropriate steps to either stop themselves from bullying others or to protect themselves from being bullied (without ceasing to play with their friends). Going off to play by oneself when what one wants to do is play with friends IS NOT "taking it in stride." Likewise, telling a "little kid" to "suck it up" and "play single-player" instead is not teaching that child anything valuable. It is allowing the bully to achieve the goal of socially isolating the victim from their friends.
The term kid seems very subjective. Where I am in life anyone under 25 is 'a kid' with exceptions for experience and mature behavior. But I have many adult tenants that are incapable of managing simple life task. Just this week I had to evict a male over 30 because in doing some electrical work I found a room full of trash in bags that they had not bothered to take outside to the city trash can for pickup. It still surprises me the inability of some 'adults' to not take responsibility. And more than once I have gone to collect rent only to have a 40+ year old tenant tell me that they didn't have the money... while they are literally standing there with cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other. But I digress...
The tools available in the minecraft are not sufficient to avoid griefing if you want to play with other people. Which is sad because things like that can hurt the bottom line of the corporation and limit it's potential growth. Minecraft still has so much potential but if they are not going to give us real griefing tools then how many are just going to stop playing? Even simple things like a time stamp so the host can know who and when people were in the game would help.
I'm an all or nothing kind of player. I just got rid of one xbox this week because the gold live expired and it's just not worth investing more cash into a system that is too easily griefed. Still have 2 xboxs that I run minecraft on. At one time both were 24/7 and now only 1 is. And this week I have kicked 10 more people trying to boot the griefers. I am only sure about 2 as being griefers. If you have zip drive saves like me then whenever you get griefed if you go to the zip drive save then other people lose their work. And people leave over that.
Sometimes you just have to wonder why corporations set up a system like this. In COD if someone is being childish you may lose 10 or 15 minutes of game time and go to another lobby. In minecraft you can lose hundreds of hours collectively on a 24/7 server. And why invest in a new system like PS4 or xbox one if there are still going to be the same issues?
And zip drive saves take time. For me to overwrite the zip drive save I have to make sure the map hasn't been griefed so it can take an hour to travel around the map checking houses, chest, spawners, the nether etc. When I have to do that twice a day then it becomes more of a hassle than a game.
same on xbl with MC.. microsoft doesn't care because jerks pay for xbl and are their regular customers. if mojang cares, they are unable to do something about it because any system implemented could be used again by bullies to be jerks. blacklists, whitelists, etc.
i was bullied often when i was younger.. the best solution i found after various trial and error, whoop the hell out of the bully. that's right.. the best solution i found was to bully bullies. i really wish there were a better way, unfortunately people can only communicate in a language they are fleunt in, and violence is a language.. however, that only works for a physically violent bully. someone who is bullying in a mental or emotional way, needs to be coped with. those people are hardwired to be jerks. i know of no way to stop someone from being a jerk.. and if they aren't hitting you or damaging your property, deal with it.
there are plenty of ways to laugh off a jerk if they are just throwing words at you. and really those people are doing you a favor, how else were you to know those people were not worth the time of day? what better metric is there to start determining who is worth hanging out with. jerks have the kindness to come up to you and say, "i'm a jerk, probably best to not be my friend because i'm mean and self absorbed."
and again, where are the parents of children these days? too zoned out on beer, television and porn to pay attention to ther kids? why is this random child threatening to tell their principal? because that's the most involved adult in their lives? it's asinine to think you can turn an 8 year old loose on xbl and provide a child friendly experience. well, if not asinine, at least it is naive.
it's one thing to identify bullying.. it is entirely another to figure out a way to get hardwired jerks (raised by generations of hardwired jerks) to not be jerks.
best of luck~
i'm not trying to defend griefers or bullies, i'm just suggesting that not all inappropriate behaviors are "bully" behaviors. these tenant examples are more akin to laziness and irresponsibility than bullying.
want a good example of bully culture? look at the police. they use initmidation, violence, threats, etc to isolate and control people. if you break it down behavior by behavior, they are pretty bad offenders..
There are two key factors in getting a bully to back off - Confidence and persistence and a third is maintaining your friendship network. To be confident in yourself, it's probably not the best thing to go so far in defending yourself as to wind up describing yourself as a bully. You can hold onto your own good values and still persistently defend yourself, your beliefs, and your friends.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1983555-is-greifing-cyber-bullying/page__st__100
In Minecraft that would mean 1) Learn to take that backup of your world before each play session and save it to a separate device. It's also a good idea (if the world is really important to you) to keep a couple of the previous backups. That way if something goes horribly wrong with the "in use" world and the back up as well, you can decide to lose just a little more of your progress and revert to the earlier backup.
2) When inviting people you don't really know to play Minecraft with you, consider setting up a fresh world to play with them in. That way, you don't have any emotional investment in that world. If the people you invited into that empty world are not bullies and you're not bullying them, you will all likely build up a somewhat equal emotional investment in that world over time.
3) Set out a "rule" that if someone does cross the line and grief another player's work, the world will be saved and shut down. (I know this sounds odd, but I do have a reason for saving the griefed world.) In the "rule" indicate that the player who griefed will simply not be invited back - ever, but that the remaining players can then vote whether it is the griefed world that gets reloaded or the backup that gets loaded. This makes it a community decision to either lose the progress that was made while the world was being griefed by loading the backup or saving that progress and rebuilding the griefed area. That way, instead of the host giving up multiplayer play and isolating themselves to "safe" single-player worlds, they've created an arena for building a solid friendship circle. No whining, no escalation of nasty behaviors... just clear cut enforcement of a pre-agreed upon rule. (NB: A little kid will probably need parental or an older sibling's help to pull this off effectively.)
The comments about bullys seem really naïve.
It's not a big deal.
Knowing the position you're coming from, I'm going to respond by saying "measured" - not naive. You've been proposing treating everyone who griefs as though they are hardened criminals. While some bullies do develop additional issues that lead to more serious offences (25% to 60% of the time, depending on which of the two studies referenced in the article I referenced above), there are the other 40% to 75% out there who do not. That's a high enough percentage for me to be of the opinion that recommending drawing and quartering all bullies as sociopaths is also not a helpful solution to Minecraft griefing (which is also bullying only some of the time since there are incidences of people who have merely played an innocent joke gone wrong).
Again, one must also consider the ages of who might be involved. Children as young a 4 years old do play this game. Would you seriously evict a 4-year-old and his parents for griefing your server one time? or would you at least make an effort to talk once with the parents first? Would you throw a 4-year-old in boot camp?
LOL. I kind of want to say 4 year old bootcamp becaused based on the (hundreds?) of kids soccer games I have seen that would be hilarious.
Well this all goes back to definitions of griefing. The griefer I'm talking about is someone that specifically gets pleasure from causing someone harm. I don't know any 4 year olds capable of griefing because of a basic lack of understanding. Plus from my personal experience I'm talking about 18+ (or for this thread people that are cognizant of their actions and their effect). People that function, and take action, based on deriving pleasure from others pain is broken, wrong and immoral. Whether they go on to acquire a criminal record or not is not the issue. The issue is consequences. When negative actions have little or no consequences compared to the damage done then that lack of correction leads people to continue engaging in negative activity and increase it.
The purpose of punishment is correction. That needs to be immediate and effective to work. The country I live in (USA) has more people in prison than any other nation. Including countries like Communist China with more than 4 times the population. And yet we are not crime free or even low crime. But that is partially because consequences are not immediate, effective or universal. Locking people in a cage doesn't make them better people. It makes them even more likely to offend again based on inability to get a job with a criminal record. Punishments need to be swift, increasing and sever.
At a certain age and in lesser crimes a boot camp could adjust behavior. What age group is this a good option for? Somewhere around puberty 12 to 16 up to maybe 30 or 40. Younger than that won't get it and those older probably won't change. Long term minimal punishments like 10 years in a prison do not help society or the individual. People sitting on death row for 17 years (average in USA) does not deter crime.
So just like in minecraft minimal crimes (crime defined as action that harms another) should have punishment directed towards correcting behavior like boot camps. Medium crimes could be prison sentences (hard gulag type labor) up to maybe a year. Sever crimes should be dealt with immediately with a permanent solution.
So yea an 18 year old that derives pleasure from hurting another and continues engage in harmful behaviors repeatedly I would put them in boot camp. Maybe 8 to 20 weeks. They would come out fit, disciplined and teamwork minded.
As others have indicated above me, the specific definition of "griefing" is far more limited than the overall definition of "bullying." The notion of virtual harm vs. real physical harm is also somewhat different for some people vs. others. The younger the child involved the more difficult it probably is for them to differentiate between the two. A young child IS quite capable of griefing... without actually intentionally bullying. They are also quite capable of intentionally bullying; however, this is when a measured response from the person who has been griefed has the greatest potential to stop a child from become a future adult bully.. and perhaps even a future criminal.
With an older teen or adult, I agree that it is far less likely that banning them and having the server move on without them will ever successfully convert them from being a bully. Boot camps for offenders do often enter into the discourse on that issue. However, media images of military personnel inflicting grievous injuries on prisoners does not make me optimistic that every soldier that emerges from boot camp arbitrarily emerges as the perfect non-bullying team player.
However, the permanent Minecraft-based solution you ask for server crimes is already built into my suggestion - Use invite only and set a rule ahead of time that anyone caught griefing will be immediately kicked from the server and never invited back... ever. Then let the remaining team decide/vote whether they undo the damage by either manually repairing it or by going back to an earlier save. (NB - I realize that invite only is not really practical for a 24/7 server. There is a suggestion going that I do support for specific worlds and that is some form of Trusted Players List.)
all i'm sayin is that casey heynes is a hero... and i'd feel the same way if he'd broke that kids leg. years of bullying and no one seemed to care until he tossed that little rat on the ground.
i can tell you from experience that confidence and persistence aren't very effective. however, a good solid elbow to the nose can do wonders to educate a person about your position concerning being physically abused, if spoken language is ineffective. in fact, on that day i went from "bullied" to "not bullied".
in minecraft, all of the solutions available are "deal with it".. all of the backup and invite options work, but make hosting a game a hassle.. and they are all "deal with it" measures. there is nothing you can do to alter the behavior of some spoiled child on another part of the planet.