Griefing in the minecraft is as bad as stealing or vandalism in the real world and should be punished accordingly. That is not a joke. I'm a landlord and have my real world property griefed sometimes and I feel as strongly about minecraft griefing as I do about rental property griefing. I have had to call the sheriff and take people to court in the real world and if I could I would not hesitate to do the same to griefers of the minecraft.
If anything minecraft griefing is worse than real world griefing because minecraft griefers are people that grief simply because they enjoy causing people pain. That type of mentality and person has no place in society and should be eliminated permanently.
You can kick a person from a world, you can have backup saves, you can delete the person from your friend list after they do it once (thus it being entirely your fault if they come back), you can set your world to invite only, etc. Those are all tools that 4J implemented on purpose to combat griefers (the back-up one is just kinda common sense).
Griefing is nowhere near as serious as vandalism. It's a video game. If you take a video game that seriously, then I kind of feel bad for you. I understand, people put months into builds, but 99 percent of the time, you're going to catch the griefer before they destroy a month's old build. Plus, whatever they do manage to destroy, you can rebuild it easier than the first time, and sometimes make it even better than the first time around.
it is NEVER the victim's fault for someone else choosing to do something bad to them.
Stating otherwise implies that it is rape victims who are to blame for being raped, not the rapists.
It is more correct to say that the victim may have failed to exercise precautions that would have helped them. But that is NOT the same as blaming the victim for another person choosing to do harm.
Understanding this nuance is going to help you NOT offend people with "blame the victim" veribiage when they have suffered more severe hardships.
No. No, no, no, no. You're twisting my words into something that did not need to be brought up.
People! There's a HUGE difference between real life and video games.
There is no way that rape can even be comparable to getting griefed in a video game.
Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. Getting griefed is bad, yes, but it won't scar you mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically.
I was in no way saying griefing is okay, but as I said earlier in the post, you have a bunch of ways to make sure your builds are safe. If it happens once, you can easily prevent it from happening again (from the same person).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The good people, they always die. And the bad people do too...But the weaker people, the people like me, WE have inherited the Earth. -Morgan Jones
You can kick a person from a world, you can have backup saves, you can delete the person from your friend list after they do it once (thus it being entirely your fault if they come back), you can set your world to invite only, etc. Those are all tools that 4J implemented on purpose to combat griefers (the back-up one is just kinda common sense).
Griefing is nowhere near as serious as vandalism. It's a video game. If you take a video game that seriously, then I kind of feel bad for you. I understand, people put months into builds, but 99 percent of the time, you're going to catch the griefer before they destroy a month's old build. Plus, whatever they do manage to destroy, you can rebuild it easier than the first time, and sometimes make it even better than the first time around.
NOTE: Possible trigger in spoilers.
No. No, no, no, no. You're twisting my words into something that did not need to be brought up.
People! There's a HUGE difference between real life and video games.
There is no way that rape can even be comparable to getting griefed in a video game.
Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. Getting griefed is bad, yes, but it won't scar you mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically.
I was in no way saying griefing is okay, but as I said earlier in the post, you have a bunch of ways to make sure your builds are safe. If it happens once, you can easily prevent it from happening again (from the same person).
Who said griefing was the same as rape? Nobody.
I addressed the specific words you used to say that it was the victim's fault. When talking about ANY harm that happened to somebody by somebody else's intentional action, it is NEVER acceptable to say it was the victim's fault.
I used the specific example of how a rape victim feels when somebody says it was "their own fault" to illustrate WHY it is wrong to blame the victim.
The reason it is bad practice to blame the victim isn't based on the severity. It's because it absolves the aggressor of responsibility for their actions.
Griefing is pretty low on the totem pole of potential evils to visit on our fellow human beings.
But statements like "it's his own fault for not securing his game" or "it's just a game" or "it's funny" show a lack of empathy to the pain the victim is feeling.
I don't agree that griefers should be arrested as if they vandalized a real property. But the fact that another human being feels that way shows the real emotional impact that griefing can cause a victim.
I am absolutely serious. Typically griefing in rental properties is in the form of negligence like spilling sauce on carpets and not cleaning it up or being late with the rent and not paying the late fees or stacking bags of garbage in a house because they are too lazy to take the trash out side to the trash can or refusing to leave when evicted. But usually griefing in the real world is done for some other reason than just to make people suffer and there are real world remedies for tenants doing these things. The court system and the sheriffs department.
Time is the most precious commodity you have and when you are griefed someone is stealing it just for the pleasure of causing pain. The mentality of someone that enjoys causing pain (griefer) is the same mentality of a serial killer. I am more disgusted to see one of my servers has been griefed than to see a rental property griefed. In the past month I have evicted 2 tenants from houses. Both had been tenants for years and I have warned them repeatedly about infractions. I have also had griefers that I have permanently banned from the servers. I am more upset about the minecraft griefers than about the tenants. I have had some tenants that were evicted before and have been welcome back. But minecraft griefers get permanently banned and their friends get banned. If someone vouched for them when they came on the server there's a good chance they will be banned too.
If you were renting from me and griefed my minecraft world I would evict you in the real world with absolutely no hesitation or remorse.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't agree with griefing one bit, never did it and never will. But, you can't be serious here can you? That is some funny stuff. You need to lighten up a bit and separate fantasy from reality a bit.
Do you think villagers in the game are like, oh great! here comes that human game player and he just destroyed one of my houses. Only if I could go to the real world, I would burn down one of the buildings he owns or take him to Minecraft court.
You can kick a person from a world, you can have backup saves, you can delete the person from your friend list after they do it once (thus it being entirely your fault if they come back), you can set your world to invite only, etc. Those are all tools that 4J implemented on purpose to combat griefers (the back-up one is just kinda common sense).
Griefing is nowhere near as serious as vandalism. It's a video game. If you take a video game that seriously, then I kind of feel bad for you. I understand, people put months into builds, but 99 percent of the time, you're going to catch the griefer before they destroy a month's old build. Plus, whatever they do manage to destroy, you can rebuild it easier than the first time, and sometimes make it even better than the first time around.
NOTE: Possible trigger in spoilers.
No. No, no, no, no. You're twisting my words into something that did not need to be brought up.
People! There's a HUGE difference between real life and video games.
There is no way that rape can even be comparable to getting griefed in a video game.
Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. Getting griefed is bad, yes, but it won't scar you mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically.
I was in no way saying griefing is okay, but as I said earlier in the post, you have a bunch of ways to make sure your builds are safe. If it happens once, you can easily prevent it from happening again (from the same person).
I use all of those but they are not sufficient. Obviously if you know who the griefer is it's easier to deal with. With a 24/7 server someone can grief the server at 3 am and it could be any of 40 people that use the server. The tools are in no way sufficient to stop griefing and particularly griefing multiple times by the same person.
You are simply incorrect about minecraft griefing not being the same as the 'real' world. I deal with griefers in real life and in the minecraft and whether it's 20 hours spent rebuilding a village or 20 hours spent cleaning and repairing a rental unit it's still my time and life. But with real world griefing I have the tools to make the griefers either fix the griefing or pay (money or jail) for it. If someone griefs your world and destroys many hours of work it is not sufficient to kill and ban the person. That consequence is not equal to the damage done.
You can kick a person from a world, you can have backup saves, you can delete the person from your friend list after they do it once (thus it being entirely your fault if they come back), you can set your world to invite only, etc. Those are all tools that 4J implemented on purpose to combat griefers (the back-up one is just kinda common sense).
Griefing is nowhere near as serious as vandalism. It's a video game. If you take a video game that seriously, then I kind of feel bad for you. I understand, people put months into builds, but 99 percent of the time, you're going to catch the griefer before they destroy a month's old build. Plus, whatever they do manage to destroy, you can rebuild it easier than the first time, and sometimes make it even better than the first time around.
NOTE: Possible trigger in spoilers.
No. No, no, no, no. You're twisting my words into something that did not need to be brought up.
People! There's a HUGE difference between real life and video games.
There is no way that rape can even be comparable to getting griefed in a video game.
Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. Getting griefed is bad, yes, but it won't scar you mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically.
I was in no way saying griefing is okay, but as I said earlier in the post, you have a bunch of ways to make sure your builds are safe. If it happens once, you can easily prevent it from happening again (from the same person).
I use all of those but they are not sufficient. Obviously if you know who the griefer is it's easier to deal with. With a 24/7 server someone can grief the server at 3 am and it could be any of 40 people that use the server. The tools are in no way sufficient to stop griefing and particularly griefing multiple times by the same person.
You are simply incorrect about minecraft griefing not being the same as the 'real' world. I deal with griefers in real life and in the minecraft and whether it's 20 hours spent rebuilding a village or 20 hours spent cleaning and repairing a rental unit it's still my time and life. But with real world griefing I have the tools to make the griefers either fix the griefing or pay (money or jail) for it. If someone griefs your world and destroys many hours of work it is not sufficient to kill and ban the person. That consequence is not equal to the damage done.
I use all of those but they are not sufficient. Obviously if you know who the griefer is it's easier to deal with. With a 24/7 server someone can grief the server at 3 am and it could be any of 40 people that use the server. The tools are in no way sufficient to stop griefing and particularly griefing multiple times by the same person.
You are simply incorrect about minecraft griefing not being the same as the 'real' world. I deal with griefers in real life and in the minecraft and whether it's 20 hours spent rebuilding a village or 20 hours spent cleaning and repairing a rental unit it's still my time and life. But with real world griefing I have the tools to make the griefers either fix the griefing or pay (money or jail) for it. If someone griefs your world and destroys many hours of work it is not sufficient to kill and ban the person. That consequence is not equal to the damage done.
....
Hitler has a better sense of reality and morals. It's a god **** video game, GROW UP!
In reference on one of your previous posts, you're saying that if one of your tenants bought Minecraft, played on your server, and spilled lava on your house, you would EVICT HIM!? WTF, man. Common sense violated.
I would like to add to this by asking a question to the "yes" people.
If you built a sand castle on the public beach and left it over night.
Would you feel bullied if someone came and smashed it up while you were gone?
M
I live at the beach and a few decades ago I did build sand castles. There is no 'overnight' with a sand castle. The sand at the top of the beach is dry and hot and doesn't bind together. The sand in the wave area is too wet and your feet sink into the sand quickly. The sand that barely leaves a foot print is the right sand for castles. If you can squeeze a ball of sand and it holds it's shape you can make a castle. So Sand castles are going to get washed away by waves. If you put it above the wave area then it will dry out (constant wind at beach) and will fall apart anyway. You can use hair spray to hold it together longer but that is frowned upon (maybe not allowed now) at sand castle competitions.
That being said it's not a good example. I would be surprised to see a sand castle I have built still standing the next day.
3 of the reasons this is an issue
1- my time is my time whether I'm mowing grass or minecrafting. taking 20 hours from me is the same in the real world or in minecraft. Money is not the issue. I can always get more money I can not get more time.
2- punishments in the minecraft are not comparable to the crime.
3- The mindset of griefers is (others pain = pleasure) is the same mindset of a serial killer. It is a broken mindset.
I live at the beach and a few decades ago I did build sand castles. There is no 'overnight' with a sand castle. The sand at the top of the beach is dry and hot and doesn't bind together. The sand in the wave area is too wet and your feet sink into the sand quickly. The sand that barely leaves a foot print is the right sand for castles. If you can squeeze a ball of sand and it holds it's shape you can make a castle. So Sand castles are going to get washed away by waves. If you put it above the wave area then it will dry out (constant wind at beach) and will fall apart anyway. You can use hair spray to hold it together longer but that is frowned upon (maybe not allowed now) at sand castle competitions.
That being said it's not a good example. I would be surprised to see a sand castle I have built still standing the next day.
3 of the reasons this is an issue
1- my time is my time whether I'm mowing grass or minecrafting. taking 20 hours from me is the same in the real world or in minecraft. Money is not the issue. I can always get more money I can not get more time.
2- punishments in the minecraft are not comparable to the crime.
3- The mindset of griefers is (others pain = pleasure) is the same mindset of a serial killer. It is a broken mindset.
So technicalities aside was that yes you would feel bullied or no you wouldn't?
The point I am making is you are leaving creations in public place - beach, park, server etc.
You clearly understand the limitations with the host privilages in minecraft and you understand that people you do not know may come on to your server. But you then feel that they are bullying you by destroying your creations.
We dont live in a perfect society, we all know that.
What frustrates me (and is the reason I decided to continue on this thread) is that people who allow these things to happen to themselves - by building sandcastles in public places or creations on insecure servers - dont recognise that actually, its their responsibility to prevent these things from happening.
Nobody destroys my sandcastles. I only let my friends play on my bit of the beach and I dont play on beaches that I know strangers may be able to get on.
Nobody destroys my sandcastles. I only let my friends play on my bit of the beach and I dont play on beaches that I know strangers may be able to get on.
Why do people not understand the meaning of the word "bullying"? If you're just ticking off a kid one time and then not at all after that then that's not bullying, it's just being a jerk.
Why do people not understand the meaning of the word "bullying"? If you're just ticking off a kid one time and then not at all after that then that's not bullying, it's just being a jerk.
But if you tick off another little kid the next day and a different one the day after that, it is demonstrating the mentality of a bully - just one who changes their targets around.
I would like to add to this by asking a question to the "yes" people.
If you built a sand castle on the public beach and left it over night.
Would you feel bullied if someone came and smashed it up while you were gone?
M
Whether or not the victim feels bullied does not determine whether or not the perpetrator's intent is to bully the victim. The vicitm has an absolute right to feel whatever they feel regardless of whether their assessment of the situation is accurate, overreacting, or under-reacting, etc. It's the mental state and intent of the perpetrator the determines whether or not they are using griefting as a tool to bully a victim or innocently thinking that their actions will be received by their "friend" in a light-hearted way. Even if their first act of griefing a friend might be an intended light-hearted joke, IF they persist to grief again or prank that person again in even a different way after their first joke is not well received, that is a clearer indication that their intent was actually not to jest, but to aggravate and harm... and THAT is when it crosses over the line to become bullying. Frequently, however, the bullies rationalize their actions as being just joking... but people who innocently play a joke that goes wrong are more usually inclined to sincerely apologize for their mistake and they don't repeat the joke. They accept that not everyone enjoys being pranked and respect that boundary afterward. They also don't tend to blame their victim for feeling as though they have been bullied; whereas, bullies usually do.
So technicalities aside was that yes you would feel bullied or no you wouldn't?
The point I am making is you are leaving creations in public place - beach, park, server etc.
You clearly understand the limitations with the host privilages in minecraft and you understand that people you do not know may come on to your server. But you then feel that they are bullying you by destroying your creations.
We dont live in a perfect society, we all know that.
What frustrates me (and is the reason I decided to continue on this thread) is that people who allow these things to happen to themselves - by building sandcastles in public places or creations on insecure servers - dont recognise that actually, its their responsibility to prevent these things from happening.
Nobody destroys my sandcastles. I only let my friends play on my bit of the beach and I dont play on beaches that I know strangers may be able to get on.
M
It's all well and good to say that people should take steps to protect themselves; but let's keep in mind here that the OP clearly indicated that the victim in this scenario was a "little kid" and his friend is not. The friend, therefore, as a responsibility to also respect the child's youth and naive-ness and to deliberately not take advantage of the child's young age and certainly not to make fun of the child's typical child-like reaction to the situation. Whether or not one believes that the griefing was a misguided joke or a tool to bully this child, it is still very clear that this older person was not behaving responsibly or respectfully towards the child... and it is also very clear that the OP himself is not respecting the child by posting the situation to the forums - potentially exposing the child to public ridicule here.
It's all well and good to say that people should take steps to protect themselves; but let's keep in mind here that the OP clearly indicated that the victim in this scenario was a "little kid" and his friend is not. The friend, therefore, as a responsibility to also respect the child's youth and naive-ness and to deliberately not take advantage of the child's young age and certainly not to make fun of the child's typical child-like reaction to the situation. Whether or not one believes that the griefing was a misguided joke or a tool to bully this child, it is still very clear that this older person was not behaving responsibly or respectfully towards the child... and it is also very clear that the OP himself is not respecting the child by posting the situation to the forums - potentially exposing the child to public ridicule here.
Yes, I would like to know why the little kid felt he had to tell the friend off.
It's all well and good to say that people should take steps to protect themselves; but let's keep in mind here that the OP clearly indicated that the victim in this scenario was a "little kid" and his friend is not. The friend, therefore, as a responsibility to also respect the child's youth and naive-ness and to deliberately not take advantage of the child's young age and certainly not to make fun of the child's typical child-like reaction to the situation. Whether or not one believes that the griefing was a misguided joke or a tool to bully this child, it is still very clear that this older person was not behaving responsibly or respectfully towards the child... and it is also very clear that the OP himself is not respecting the child by posting the situation to the forums - potentially exposing the child to public ridicule here.
You are absolutely right and my post was mainly in response to the subtopic of griefing in general as opposed to the OP specifically.
You can kick a person from a world, you can have backup saves, you can delete the person from your friend list after they do it once (thus it being entirely your fault if they come back), you can set your world to invite only, etc. Those are all tools that 4J implemented on purpose to combat griefers (the back-up one is just kinda common sense).
Griefing is nowhere near as serious as vandalism. It's a video game. If you take a video game that seriously, then I kind of feel bad for you. I understand, people put months into builds, but 99 percent of the time, you're going to catch the griefer before they destroy a month's old build. Plus, whatever they do manage to destroy, you can rebuild it easier than the first time, and sometimes make it even better than the first time around.
NOTE: Possible trigger in spoilers.
No. No, no, no, no. You're twisting my words into something that did not need to be brought up.
People! There's a HUGE difference between real life and video games.
There is no way that rape can even be comparable to getting griefed in a video game.
Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. Getting griefed is bad, yes, but it won't scar you mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically.
Who said griefing was the same as rape? Nobody.
I addressed the specific words you used to say that it was the victim's fault. When talking about ANY harm that happened to somebody by somebody else's intentional action, it is NEVER acceptable to say it was the victim's fault.
I used the specific example of how a rape victim feels when somebody says it was "their own fault" to illustrate WHY it is wrong to blame the victim.
The reason it is bad practice to blame the victim isn't based on the severity. It's because it absolves the aggressor of responsibility for their actions.
Griefing is pretty low on the totem pole of potential evils to visit on our fellow human beings.
But statements like "it's his own fault for not securing his game" or "it's just a game" or "it's funny" show a lack of empathy to the pain the victim is feeling.
I don't agree that griefers should be arrested as if they vandalized a real property. But the fact that another human being feels that way shows the real emotional impact that griefing can cause a victim.
Do you think villagers in the game are like, oh great! here comes that human game player and he just destroyed one of my houses. Only if I could go to the real world, I would burn down one of the buildings he owns or take him to Minecraft court.
I use all of those but they are not sufficient. Obviously if you know who the griefer is it's easier to deal with. With a 24/7 server someone can grief the server at 3 am and it could be any of 40 people that use the server. The tools are in no way sufficient to stop griefing and particularly griefing multiple times by the same person.
You are simply incorrect about minecraft griefing not being the same as the 'real' world. I deal with griefers in real life and in the minecraft and whether it's 20 hours spent rebuilding a village or 20 hours spent cleaning and repairing a rental unit it's still my time and life. But with real world griefing I have the tools to make the griefers either fix the griefing or pay (money or jail) for it. If someone griefs your world and destroys many hours of work it is not sufficient to kill and ban the person. That consequence is not equal to the damage done.
https://www.youtube.com/user/IAMBaldur/feed
I use all of those but they are not sufficient. Obviously if you know who the griefer is it's easier to deal with. With a 24/7 server someone can grief the server at 3 am and it could be any of 40 people that use the server. The tools are in no way sufficient to stop griefing and particularly griefing multiple times by the same person.
You are simply incorrect about minecraft griefing not being the same as the 'real' world. I deal with griefers in real life and in the minecraft and whether it's 20 hours spent rebuilding a village or 20 hours spent cleaning and repairing a rental unit it's still my time and life. But with real world griefing I have the tools to make the griefers either fix the griefing or pay (money or jail) for it. If someone griefs your world and destroys many hours of work it is not sufficient to kill and ban the person. That consequence is not equal to the damage done.
https://www.youtube.com/user/IAMBaldur/feed
....
Hitler has a better sense of reality and morals. It's a god **** video game, GROW UP!
In reference on one of your previous posts, you're saying that if one of your tenants bought Minecraft, played on your server, and spilled lava on your house, you would EVICT HIM!? WTF, man. Common sense violated.
I cant believe how much some people struggle to differentiate between real life and a computer game.
If some kid came on to my game and griefed a load of stuff would I feel "bullied"? No. Would i just not let them on again? Yes.
Seriously. Thanks for making my morning.
Keep it up! Some of you guys are pretty special.
M
If you built a sand castle on the public beach and left it over night.
Would you feel bullied if someone came and smashed it up while you were gone?
M
I live at the beach and a few decades ago I did build sand castles. There is no 'overnight' with a sand castle. The sand at the top of the beach is dry and hot and doesn't bind together. The sand in the wave area is too wet and your feet sink into the sand quickly. The sand that barely leaves a foot print is the right sand for castles. If you can squeeze a ball of sand and it holds it's shape you can make a castle. So Sand castles are going to get washed away by waves. If you put it above the wave area then it will dry out (constant wind at beach) and will fall apart anyway. You can use hair spray to hold it together longer but that is frowned upon (maybe not allowed now) at sand castle competitions.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sand+castle+competition&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lME7UozNNPjK4AOehIHgBg&ved=0CD4QsAQ&biw=1333&bih=628&dpr=1
That being said it's not a good example. I would be surprised to see a sand castle I have built still standing the next day.
3 of the reasons this is an issue
1- my time is my time whether I'm mowing grass or minecrafting. taking 20 hours from me is the same in the real world or in minecraft. Money is not the issue. I can always get more money I can not get more time.
2- punishments in the minecraft are not comparable to the crime.
3- The mindset of griefers is (others pain = pleasure) is the same mindset of a serial killer. It is a broken mindset.
https://www.youtube.com/user/IAMBaldur/feed
So technicalities aside was that yes you would feel bullied or no you wouldn't?
The point I am making is you are leaving creations in public place - beach, park, server etc.
You clearly understand the limitations with the host privilages in minecraft and you understand that people you do not know may come on to your server. But you then feel that they are bullying you by destroying your creations.
We dont live in a perfect society, we all know that.
What frustrates me (and is the reason I decided to continue on this thread) is that people who allow these things to happen to themselves - by building sandcastles in public places or creations on insecure servers - dont recognise that actually, its their responsibility to prevent these things from happening.
Nobody destroys my sandcastles. I only let my friends play on my bit of the beach and I dont play on beaches that I know strangers may be able to get on.
M
But if you tick off another little kid the next day and a different one the day after that, it is demonstrating the mentality of a bully - just one who changes their targets around.
Whether or not the victim feels bullied does not determine whether or not the perpetrator's intent is to bully the victim. The vicitm has an absolute right to feel whatever they feel regardless of whether their assessment of the situation is accurate, overreacting, or under-reacting, etc. It's the mental state and intent of the perpetrator the determines whether or not they are using griefting as a tool to bully a victim or innocently thinking that their actions will be received by their "friend" in a light-hearted way. Even if their first act of griefing a friend might be an intended light-hearted joke, IF they persist to grief again or prank that person again in even a different way after their first joke is not well received, that is a clearer indication that their intent was actually not to jest, but to aggravate and harm... and THAT is when it crosses over the line to become bullying. Frequently, however, the bullies rationalize their actions as being just joking... but people who innocently play a joke that goes wrong are more usually inclined to sincerely apologize for their mistake and they don't repeat the joke. They accept that not everyone enjoys being pranked and respect that boundary afterward. They also don't tend to blame their victim for feeling as though they have been bullied; whereas, bullies usually do.
It's all well and good to say that people should take steps to protect themselves; but let's keep in mind here that the OP clearly indicated that the victim in this scenario was a "little kid" and his friend is not. The friend, therefore, as a responsibility to also respect the child's youth and naive-ness and to deliberately not take advantage of the child's young age and certainly not to make fun of the child's typical child-like reaction to the situation. Whether or not one believes that the griefing was a misguided joke or a tool to bully this child, it is still very clear that this older person was not behaving responsibly or respectfully towards the child... and it is also very clear that the OP himself is not respecting the child by posting the situation to the forums - potentially exposing the child to public ridicule here.
Yes, I would like to know why the little kid felt he had to tell the friend off.
You are absolutely right and my post was mainly in response to the subtopic of griefing in general as opposed to the OP specifically.
Good debate though
M
"Server Error" obviously means "posted"..