It has been my life experience that people reveal who they really are in the little things. A thief is a thief whether they take 10 Euros or 10,000,000 Euros. Same for liars. Same for griefers. How you minecraft is a mirror image into your own soul. So someone that takes pleasure in griefing has the same sadistic seeds of darkness harbored in the hearts of someone that would microwave a live cat.
The only currency in this world that we can not retrieve is time. A griefer is stealing your time, amoung other things, and should be punished accordingly. Jail time in the real world or prisoner trash pickup on the road side would teach griefers a valuable lesson in the real world. It's not just a video game it is a window to the soul. If you take pleasure in griefing others you have no part in a civilized world.
Okay, I think saying griefers should do jail time or community service is extremely harsh. At this point I honestly don't know if you are trolling, but I hope you are. Yes I get what you are saying, but just because them griefing could lead to them blowing up the planet doesn't mean they should do jail time for a video game.
It has been my life experience that people reveal who they really are in the little things. A thief is a thief whether they take 10 Euros or 10,000,000 Euros. Same for liars. Same for griefers. How you minecraft is a mirror image into your own soul. So someone that takes pleasure in griefing has the same sadistic seeds of darkness harbored in the hearts of someone that would microwave a live cat.
The only currency in this world that we can not retrieve is time. A griefer is stealing your time, amoung other things, and should be punished accordingly. Jail time in the real world or prisoner trash pickup on the road side would teach griefers a valuable lesson in the real world. It's not just a video game it is a window to the soul. If you take pleasure in griefing others you have no part in a civilized world.
Okay, I think saying griefers should do jail time or community service is extremely harsh. At this point I honestly don't know if you are trolling, but I hope you are. Yes I get what you are saying, but just because them griefing could lead to them blowing up the planet doesn't mean they should do jail time for a video game.
Baldur, you know I have the upmost respect for you; but I have to agree with kakeli that you're going a little over the top right now. I recognize that the strongness of your posts is an honest reflection of the depth of the hurt you feel; but please take a step back and breathe a little.
To the griefers - Honestly, you can't deny that there is no negative effect on people who have been griefed. Hear the pain an the anger being expressed by people who have been griefed. They do not find it fun!!!! You say you find it fun... but that just means you take enjoyment from seeing other people hurting. That's wrong. It's not insignificant and there is no rationalizing it.
Baldur, you know I have the upmost respect for you; but I have to agree with kakeli that you're going a little over the top right now. I recognize that the strongness of your posts is an honest reflection of the depth of the hurt you feel; but please take a step back and breathe a little.
To the griefers - Honestly, you can't deny that there is no negative effect on people who have been griefed. Hear the pain an the anger being expressed by people who have been griefed. They do not find it fun!!!! You say you find it fun... but that just means you take enjoyment from seeing other people hurting. That's wrong. It's not insignificant and there is no rationalizing it.
I understand your point but I am in the unique position of being 'griefed' in the real world (rental properties I own) and the minecraft world. I have learned that there are red flags that alert me to whether someone will make a good tenant. For instance when describing a room for rent I will mention that it's furnished and has a wide screen TV and ask what kinds of shows does this person watch. When someones favorite shows are drama centered around people argueing, like Bridezillas, then every single time that person is someone that is going to cause problems. Griefing is a reflection of a problem individual. The best way to help this type of person is stop them early.
I am not always an advocate of jail time or fines. I have had tenents that owed me hundreds in late fees that I forgave in exchange for them reading a couple of short books on budgeting. But they demostrated that they were trying by riding a bike 5 miles to get to work in freezing weather. I have had a tenent pull two knives (PTSD) on me and I didn't even bother to call the law. I was able to deal with the situation and didn't think jail was the best situation to help that person. BUT...
Griefers have a broken mindset that will only exacerbate itself later in life. The best way to help a griefer is a stern punishment early on. If you have ever gone shopping for foreclosures it's the same mindset. People with nothing to gain will rip off doors, urinate in holes in the walls, crap in the oven, lock an animal in a house never to return to feed or water it, etc. Jail is not the only answer. Boot camp, military school or maybe they just need involvement in a team sport.
Joke break: How many griefers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
None.
They just get you to hold the light bulb then they screw you.
I understand your point but I am in the unique position of being 'griefed' in the real world (rental properties I own) and the minecraft world.....
Griefers have a broken mindset that will only exacerbate itself later in life. The best way to help a griefer is a stern punishment early on. If you have ever gone shopping for foreclosures it's the same mindset. People with nothing to gain will rip off doors, urinate in holes in the walls, crap in the oven, lock an animal in a house never to return to feed or water it, etc. Jail is not the only answer. Boot camp, military school or maybe they just need involvement in a team sport.
I can agree with you... to some extent; but I also think your expression of that sort of point was starting to go a little over the top for a public internet forum where younger children may be declaring themselves to be griefers when, in reality, they really aren't that hardened to it yet and may genuinely not yet have a good handle on even the definition.
For example, my friend's 5-year-old daughter (or was it the boy, I forget now) proudly declared herself/himself a griefer to me the first day I played Minecraft with her/him simply because her/his older brother had been calling her/him that for foiling his plans to try to stand me up in a spawn corner and kill me repeatedly (in Halo and COD) or trap people inside an obsidian closet or destroying everything his other siblings tried to build. So, who was really being more a "griefer"? Him, although he would have been the one to have hotly denied it at the time. Over this past year, things have improved with him considerably. The biggest key, I think, is insightful parental involvement. Are we totally out of the woods yet with any of them? Probably not... that's why the insightful parental involvement has to go on and on and on.
Certainly, team sports (with GOOD coaches) do offer a lot of benefits for children of all ages. Boot camps are also an alternative solution that is more and more frequently being bandied about; and stronger prison sentences for problem children is also an alternative solution that is being widely discussed. Bullying (and griefing) is something that has permeated our society and, no doubt, it will take a multipronged approach to even begin to put a dent in it.
Others have stated it well already but just to say I agree friends concentually pranking each other is not griefing in my opinion. The griefer I am discussion is someone that sees minecraft as a platform for griefing and derives pleasure from harming others. To them the game is griefing. I don't believe most 5 year olds have sufficient reasoning abilities to understand cause and effect in the moral sense. But someone that is 15 and has a permit to hurl down an interstate in a 2 ton vehicle traveling 125 kilometers per hour needs to understand all actions have consequences.
Thoughts lead to actions
Actions lead to habits
Habits lead to character
Character leads to destiny
Trying to say griefing could make one suicidal? Mental issues cause one to go suicidal, not griefing. Think before you post people. Jesus christ....
Since you are going to pin point my argument, let me explain something.
I never said griefing someone will cause them to become suicidal. I said depression can cause people to become suicidal. Depression is a form of mental illness, and it affects many.
If you are going to blantly construde my argument to say that I am claiming that griefing makes people suicidal, I think you need to read my argument again, but to make it easier, I'll say it again.
Can griefing set someone off? Absolutely.
My argument is that griefers = bullies.
No one knows the lives we live behind our computer screens. No one knows the state of anyone's mind, or what they live with day by day. The internet gives us that anonymity that let's us escape our lives and live another how we chose.
Let's use an extreme example.
John Doe is bullied at school, comes house you wouldn't call a home. Maybe their parents work all waking hours of the day, maybe one is an alcholoic, or maybe there is just a single parent.
John's only out from the bullies, the stress, the harassment and belittlement is to play a game online. We're obviously going to call that game MCX360.
John has been building his build for several weeks/days and is nearly complete...he only needs to gather a few more blocks to finish it.
John is in a world where him and his friends play. Someone joins the world, a friend of his best friend.
John has seen this other name around before. He doesn't think anything of it. He goes to grab something to each from the kitchen and returns to his screen where he finds the friend, had destroyed his build, and to make matters worse, the game now saves.
All of his work gone...can never be reloaded...
John's only refuge to get away from the life he lived...now there is no escape.
Is everyone like this? No. Absolutely not. This is an extreme example by far, but it can happen.
This is, and I quote, what I said:
Am I saying you're killing people? No.
Am I saying that griefers have the potential to set this off on some people? Absolutely.
Others have stated it well already but just to say I agree friends concentually pranking each other is not griefing in my opinion. The griefer I am discussion is someone that sees minecraft as a platform for griefing and derives pleasure from harming others. To them the game is griefing. I don't believe most 5 year olds have sufficient reasoning abilities to understand cause and effect in the moral sense. But someone that is 15 and has a permit to hurl down an interstate in a 2 ton vehicle traveling 125 kilometers per hour needs to understand all actions have consequences.
Thoughts lead to actions
Actions lead to habits
Habits lead to character
Character leads to destiny
Choose your thoughts and you choose your destiny.
Your point on "Most 5 year olds" made me think of a conversation I had with my husband earlier.
Mr. Bug: How old do you think most griefers are? Me: I'm not stupid enough to think that it's only kids, but all ages...you just see it more presently in younger children. Mr. Bug: Exactly.
You're absolutely right about reasoning capabilities. This goes along with what I said earlier. We are not born with the ability to understand our actions, and the consequences of our actions.
When we grow up, our death, or any imediate harm does not even cross our mind...or the death or harm of another.
For an example...
When I was younger, my brother and myself would collect the "Teenie Babies" from McDonalds. One day I thought it would be fun to make a hot tub with an old Ice Cream bucket and a hair dryer. The bucket had some water in it, maybe about an inch or two, and I would point the blow dryer down into the bucket to heat and spin the water.
W were very lucky...
Nothing happened...but it could have. I never thought about the warning label. It never crossed my mind that I could get electrocuted...or my brother since he was holding the bucket and I was holding the dryer.
It never crossed my mind...and we were very lucky to have not been hurt or killed by my stupid action.
Growing older...I know that it was extremely stupid...I learned that very quickly.
Your point on "Most 5 year olds" made me think of a conversation I had with my husband earlier.
Mr. Bug: How old do you think most griefers are? Me: I'm not stupid enough to think that it's only kids, but all ages...you just see it more presently in younger children. Mr. Bug: Exactly.
You're absolutely right about reasoning capabilities. This goes along with what I said earlier. We are not born with the ability to understand our actions, and the consequences of our actions.
When we grow up, our death, or any imediate harm does not even cross our mind...or the death or harm of another.
This thread.... Wow....
Did I really read some of this crap? Someone stating that they would beat a griefer to death? Trying to say griefing could make one suicidal? Mental issues cause one to go suicidal, not griefing. Think before you post people. Jesus christ....
Be a terrorist? No! Gaming won't affect my life in any way other than remembering good times.
Edit: You guys dedicated a whole page to hating on me! What an accomplishment!
One of the most common rationalizations presented by posters who admit to griefing is that it doesn't have an effect on their victims.
Snip
I agree that it would not be the griefing alone that would likely cause a suicide; but really should it have to cause such a dire situation before it should be considered just plain wrong?
It will and it can there is a trend being set here, you have voice communication's now. that brings about name calling and every thing else that goes with grieving, words and actions hurt people and can never be taken back. Actions speak louder then words.
Bullying and cyber bullying is widely accepted and allowed every where and people just say get over it and grow up. "its just a game"
I learned something one day I will share this with you,
Real life event Gulf of Mexico
In 05, We were at sea for months and a storm moved in and the six point barge and tugs set anchor and prepared to ride it out. All diving operations were shut down. The supervisors pulled the Direct TV authorization cards and shut down Ship to shore phones. this meant it was no lite storm.
Some one pulled out the DVD movies not the "normal ones", later a member of the crew was overseen in the facility. In the galley that night the observer made it known to every one in the dinning area and the laughter broke out and the pointed comment of homosexually came out, it went on for five minutes. I did nothing to stop this action. The person left and went to his bunk midnight sift came around he was not on deck, a deck had was sent to round him up.
This person left his wife a 4 year daughter and 2 year boy behind, this was over some words that could never be taken back.
This makes me just as guilty for doing nothing, I sat and watched I didn't think it was funny
All it took was 5 minutes and it changed the persons life and how they saw them selves enough to kill them self.
Later it would be labeled as and accident at sea, transported dead/ reported alive, this was a cover up/SOP started CPR etc...
I think Sir Isaac Newton said it best "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" as his second rule I found to be true for words and actions that can never be taken back "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it."
Not a day goes by that I don't say this to myself "If I could take that word back, if I could only do this differently."
I wish I knew every things today back in the past and what my actions of doing nothing would have.
I could have prevented so many things a simple miss spoken words or actions to employees, wife or children, or to someone over Xbox live can never be taken back.
I have gone off lie a bomb on xbox with other adults who started in one me, they laughed then I realized they just don't care that's what they want this is how they role and they do this because they want a response, and feel like they are in control. well here is the truth they are only in control if you give them control. unplug, kick, mute, submit player review "not preferred" next "file complaint", and block communications,
Why get drained
This is what brought me to post in this thread
I had a war in my house last night between an 18 year old and a 20 old over minecraft over what I don't know what I am still trying to figure it out they are a room apart, the 15 year will not play mine craft ever again. the wife wants it out of the house.. Both doors remain locked with words flying between the walls
Two adults ready to move out over a game slamming doors, doors over shut, shouting at the top of their lungs.
I think part of it is passed down or acquired do to parents failing to respond to the needs of their kids, I am guilty of it as well I was offshore most of their lives. They learned how to cope on their own without a father. I can admit to part of this is being my fault..
In five minutes you can change a person life be it on deck or on Xbox live.
This just came to mind. Another option for dealing with griefers is to ban them from the forums. Not that we ever have any problems here.
It's not exactly that simple. How would one prove one is a griefer? What would a process be? How can abuse be avoided?
There's a reason we don't allow griefer lists on the forums. It's very hard to prove, and a lot of the arguments boil down to he said she said. It was also the case that many innocent people were branded as a griefer when it was really a griefer themselves, or just someone that had a bone to pick with the other person.
It's not exactly that simple. How would one prove one is a griefer? What would a process be? How can abuse be avoided?
There's a reason we don't allow griefer lists on the forums. It's very hard to prove, and a lot of the arguments boil down to he said she said. It was also the case that many innocent people were branded as a griefer when it was really a griefer themselves, or just someone that had a bone to pick with the other person.
If that's the case, moderators and admins have ways of telling if someone makes another account.
I'm glad that they give the moderators and admins some addiitonal tools to help them, but I still don't envy their job. It still must be difficult.
I would be opposed to maintaining public lists of griefers for the very reasons you state.
It's not exactly that simple. How would one prove one is a griefer? What would a process be? How can abuse be avoided?
There's a reason we don't allow griefer lists on the forums. It's very hard to prove, and a lot of the arguments boil down to he said she said. It was also the case that many innocent people were branded as a griefer when it was really a griefer themselves, or just someone that had a bone to pick with the other person.
If that's the case, moderators and admins have ways of telling if someone makes another account.
Yea, I understand. I was actualy refering to the forum griefer that posted in every thread about having bowel movements.
On the subject of a black list. It has been suggested to me that we have a web page with a 'wall of shame' for griefers but honestly several of the people I have banned from my own server I would not be comfortable putting on a list like that. Circumstantially I was 80% certain they were guilty so I told them that and said I could be wrong but I'm not taking the chance. On a 24/7 server and with the limited tools we have to protect ourselves I have to be aggresive in keeping the server griefer free for everyone. Even with 11 other moderators on the server it's still a constant chore to police for griefers when we bring new poeple in.
The only ones I would be comfortable black listing were those I have seen myself and thier actions could in no way be construed as pranks. There are a few other people running servers that thier word would be enough for me to blacklist someone. On the positive side thier vouching for someone means the person gets instant priveleges on my map if there's room.
For now we just informally pass names around as issues come up.
Yea, I understand. I was actualy refering to the forum griefer that posted in every thread about having bowel movements.
On the subject of a black list. It has been suggested to me that we have a web page with a 'wall of shame' for griefers but honestly several of the people I have banned from my own server I would not be comfortable putting on a list like that. Circumstantially I was 80% certain they were guilty so I told them that and said I could be wrong but I'm not taking the chance. On a 24/7 server and with the limited tools we have to protect ourselves I have to be aggresive in keeping the server griefer free for everyone. Even with 11 other moderators on the server it's still a constant chore to police for griefers when we bring new poeple in.
The only ones I would be comfortable black listing were those I have seen myself and thier actions could in no way be construed as pranks. There are a few other people running servers that thier word would be enough for me to blacklist someone. On the positive side thier vouching for someone means the person gets instant priveleges on my map if there's room.
For now we just informally pass names around as issues come up.
I don't believe that a black list would be a very effective solution anyway. With monthly accounts available, they could set up new gamertags almost as easily as new emails and new IDs on the forums. Like the forums, probably Live has means of tracking this sort of activity, but I think they are probably unlikely to ban people of paying for new gamertags before those gamertags actually take part in something wrong. It would be just too risky for them from a legal perspective.
There simply needs to be better tools available to the hosts to quickly restore griefed worlds without giving griefers even the "satisfaction" of causing an exit without saving (rage quit). Yes, probably some hosts could use the tools to pad the leaderboards, but trust has to be placed somewhere at some point... and given such a choice, I think, it's probably best placed in the people who make the investment to host others in their worlds.
Aside: Yes, that forum member seemed to have had a bit of a meltdown last night. I'm not sure who he might have been, but I actually hope he's OK.
Im on mobile so Im gonna have trouble addressing all the issues in this thread, nor am I sure I want to. Its sad to see the ignorance surrounding suicide and bullying.Im on mobile so Im gonna have trouble addressing all the issues in this thread, nor am I sure I want to. Its sad to see the ignorance surrounding suicide and bullying.
Well, I suppose even though I am a straight A student, have a girlfriend of 2 years, volunteer at the library and animal shelter, but I grief a bit, I am a bad person despite all of the things I do away from Minecraft. Just take me out back and put me down.
Some stuff has been said, and you have clarified that your griefing tended toward the retaliatory...
However, taking your quote as is (seperate from your specific circumstance), what good you do to help stray dogs is only good toward stray dogs. The guy you griefed is not the getting any good from you, only your bad.
So the scales are still lopsided for him. You have done him wrong, and unless you make restitution to him, you still have that bad karma hanging over you.
this ain't rocket science. If a black kid says it hurts his feelings when you call him the N-word, it don't matter if YOU don't think it is hurtful.
in most cases, the hurt person feels they have little chance of getting you to behave better, so they don't even try. In current events, this is why there's such a big deal about how the military handles Sexual Assault incidents. The victims didn't think it would help if they stood up, and they were right.
Getting your house blown up by a jerk isn't the worst problem to have in your life. As my prior example, there's worse things people have endured. However, there's a whole lot of little hurts people endure because jerks enjoy getting their fun at other people's expense. Getting bullied affects people for life. It usually doesn't make them stronger, instead it piles a ton of self-doubt and weakness on them that holds them back most of their life. that's a waste. And it's all because somebody put their sadistic fun as being more important.
So anybody who thinks griefing doesn't hurt people, is demonstrating a lack of empathy, which is a sociapathic trait. These kind of people get off on victimizing others and frankly, with 7 billion people on the planet to pick from, we don't need sociopaths wrecking things for the rest of us.
Bullying happens in every aspect of life.
Wish I knew the answer though.
If not a blacklist, perhaps a whitelist?
IN the GOM we have a "good ol boys list" or "black list" or "white list"
you can call it what ever you want "KioriBug" called it right it is abused like a hammer more good people end up on then bad people. often I would watch a new deck hand write a JSA on a rig for a near miss then get run off and not be able to find any more work and call me for work I would send them out they would get sent back to the shop on the truck with a request for a new hand before they ever got out to the rig.
This happens all the time. It is called abuse of power and people love to do this.
You might as well get use to the abuse. I try to tell my sons that it does not work. and I hate online cowards because I cant lay them out at some dock. please now do not do this offshore this is a federal offense in most waters and of any cost line off any country. never strike any one offshore. bite your hand, drag up call it a day and go home it is not worth spend the rest of your life in prison for hitting some one trolling you off shore.
Use Xbox as a learning place to control your self before going off shore once your offshore you can only go as far as the edge of the rig or the vessel. if you cant control your self on Xbox then you don't want to be offshore then on a coastguard cutter headed to the dark side.
The fact is these lists are no stranger any where in any place. Kid "A" goes to school and gets in to trouble while adjusting to the rules they are tagged as a trouble maker. from that point on grade after grader it follows them.
They say it doesn't it does I went to collage and volunteered in a public school system as an Aid for part of a semester till the book work got to heavy and this is were I found out this went on big time I would listened to teachers talk about kids like they were demon spawn from the nether.
I loved the "didn't see didn't happen policy, don't deal with it" that worked out real well for the runts of the class.
I new why kids were giving up and felt like they were not getting a second chance, because they weren't and still aren't today 30 years later, I had to think twice on the years I cant believe that many years have passed that quickly, seems like we were just cruising AIA for spring yesterday.. If anyone tells you different it is a lie I watch it happen again with one of mine again because of a learning disability
When you get to be my age you get to see allot of things, I cant recall them all I do remember some. Like I said it fall back to our selves and the way let things happen.
People want to take the effort to hammer people like nails everyday it happens all the time, "GOT TO HAMMER THAT DOG BACK DOWN IN TO PLACE RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! . Snap Crackle Pop Bang"
"all you have to do is rub one person the wrong way and it spreads like wild fire."
I am remembering quick and it is returning back to me on how the games are played. not a day I cant feel the blood about to drip down my back or have to keep the one eye open.
Same GOM games, I was lucky not to end up on the list I got so very close at times.
I can just feel the "Love some times" Please every one "Stand up and say hallelujah brother and sister" give me a "big hallelujah" let me hear the back row now come on now I know you can do it.....
My tee shirt says by the way "Sarcasm is just another free service I offer" I had to throw the last parts in because it is so frustrating. Society is the problem, and yet Society can fix the problem if they wanted to.
Im on mobile so Im gonna have trouble addressing all the issues in this thread, nor am I sure I want to. Its sad to see the ignorance surrounding suicide and bullying.
Bullying happens in every aspect of life.
Wish I knew the answer though.
If not a blacklist, perhaps a whitelist?
An issue with either black lists or white lists is that they both can be abused and used in ways to actually bully people as well. White lists sound like a kinder solution, but anyone who has ever been left too last when team selection at school was taking place can attest to the fact that being left out of the "in" group can feel just as lousy as being singled out as having done something wrong that you haven't necessarily done. I think a better solution is to provide server hosts with tools to quickly and efficiently undo the damage; thereby, lessening the overall effect of the griefers and, hopefully, the pleasure the griefer derives from it.
The first article was really good but when I read the second one and see that the person complaining has griefed others themselves then it doesn't seem the same.
An issue with either black lists or white lists is that they both can be abused and used in ways to actually bully people as well. White lists sound like a kinder solution, but anyone who has ever been left too last when team selection at school was taking place can attest to the fact that being left out of the "in" group can feel just as lousy as being singled out as having done something wrong that you haven't necessarily done. I think a better solution is to provide server hosts with tools to quickly and efficiently undo the damage; thereby, lessening the overall effect of the griefers and, hopefully, the pleasure the griefer derives from it.
If we just had a time stamp list for players on the server showing exactly when people got on and off would help alot. Maybe even a coordinate position map also that just keeps the last 24 hours of players positions on the server. Those 2 things would not take much to accomplish. There are some better anti-griefer methods like property claims where you are the only one that can build/mine etc inside that area but that would take more time on developers part.
It seems reasonable that if we are going to get larger maps and more multiplayer on xbox one that griefer prevention would take priority.
Baldur, you know I have the upmost respect for you; but I have to agree with kakeli that you're going a little over the top right now. I recognize that the strongness of your posts is an honest reflection of the depth of the hurt you feel; but please take a step back and breathe a little.
To the griefers - Honestly, you can't deny that there is no negative effect on people who have been griefed. Hear the pain an the anger being expressed by people who have been griefed. They do not find it fun!!!! You say you find it fun... but that just means you take enjoyment from seeing other people hurting. That's wrong. It's not insignificant and there is no rationalizing it.
http://news.cnet.com/Inflicting-pain-on-griefers/2100-1043_3-5488403.html
I understand your point but I am in the unique position of being 'griefed' in the real world (rental properties I own) and the minecraft world. I have learned that there are red flags that alert me to whether someone will make a good tenant. For instance when describing a room for rent I will mention that it's furnished and has a wide screen TV and ask what kinds of shows does this person watch. When someones favorite shows are drama centered around people argueing, like Bridezillas, then every single time that person is someone that is going to cause problems. Griefing is a reflection of a problem individual. The best way to help this type of person is stop them early.
I am not always an advocate of jail time or fines. I have had tenents that owed me hundreds in late fees that I forgave in exchange for them reading a couple of short books on budgeting. But they demostrated that they were trying by riding a bike 5 miles to get to work in freezing weather. I have had a tenent pull two knives (PTSD) on me and I didn't even bother to call the law. I was able to deal with the situation and didn't think jail was the best situation to help that person. BUT...
Griefers have a broken mindset that will only exacerbate itself later in life. The best way to help a griefer is a stern punishment early on. If you have ever gone shopping for foreclosures it's the same mindset. People with nothing to gain will rip off doors, urinate in holes in the walls, crap in the oven, lock an animal in a house never to return to feed or water it, etc. Jail is not the only answer. Boot camp, military school or maybe they just need involvement in a team sport.
Joke break: How many griefers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
None.
They just get you to hold the light bulb then they screw you.
I can agree with you... to some extent; but I also think your expression of that sort of point was starting to go a little over the top for a public internet forum where younger children may be declaring themselves to be griefers when, in reality, they really aren't that hardened to it yet and may genuinely not yet have a good handle on even the definition.
For example, my friend's 5-year-old daughter (or was it the boy, I forget now) proudly declared herself/himself a griefer to me the first day I played Minecraft with her/him simply because her/his older brother had been calling her/him that for foiling his plans to try to stand me up in a spawn corner and kill me repeatedly (in Halo and COD) or trap people inside an obsidian closet or destroying everything his other siblings tried to build. So, who was really being more a "griefer"? Him, although he would have been the one to have hotly denied it at the time. Over this past year, things have improved with him considerably. The biggest key, I think, is insightful parental involvement. Are we totally out of the woods yet with any of them? Probably not... that's why the insightful parental involvement has to go on and on and on.
Certainly, team sports (with GOOD coaches) do offer a lot of benefits for children of all ages. Boot camps are also an alternative solution that is more and more frequently being bandied about; and stronger prison sentences for problem children is also an alternative solution that is being widely discussed. Bullying (and griefing) is something that has permeated our society and, no doubt, it will take a multipronged approach to even begin to put a dent in it.
Thoughts lead to actions
Actions lead to habits
Habits lead to character
Character leads to destiny
Choose your thoughts and you choose your destiny.
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Forum AdminUnless someone directly singles out someone here, an opinion is just an opinion. People can argue they want to kill all terrorists and the like.
Since you are going to pin point my argument, let me explain something.
I never said griefing someone will cause them to become suicidal. I said depression can cause people to become suicidal. Depression is a form of mental illness, and it affects many.
If you are going to blantly construde my argument to say that I am claiming that griefing makes people suicidal, I think you need to read my argument again, but to make it easier, I'll say it again.
Can griefing set someone off? Absolutely.
My argument is that griefers = bullies.
No one knows the lives we live behind our computer screens. No one knows the state of anyone's mind, or what they live with day by day. The internet gives us that anonymity that let's us escape our lives and live another how we chose.
Let's use an extreme example.
Is everyone like this? No. Absolutely not. This is an extreme example by far, but it can happen.
This is, and I quote, what I said:
Some does not equal all.
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Forum AdminMr. Bug: How old do you think most griefers are?
Me: I'm not stupid enough to think that it's only kids, but all ages...you just see it more presently in younger children.
Mr. Bug: Exactly.
You're absolutely right about reasoning capabilities. This goes along with what I said earlier. We are not born with the ability to understand our actions, and the consequences of our actions.
When we grow up, our death, or any imediate harm does not even cross our mind...or the death or harm of another.
For an example...
It will and it can there is a trend being set here, you have voice communication's now. that brings about name calling and every thing else that goes with grieving, words and actions hurt people and can never be taken back. Actions speak louder then words.
Bullying and cyber bullying is widely accepted and allowed every where and people just say get over it and grow up. "its just a game"
Cyber Bullying
Huffington Post Cyber Bullying
Suicide Fuels Cyberbullying
I learned something one day I will share this with you,
Real life event Gulf of Mexico
In 05, We were at sea for months and a storm moved in and the six point barge and tugs set anchor and prepared to ride it out. All diving operations were shut down. The supervisors pulled the Direct TV authorization cards and shut down Ship to shore phones. this meant it was no lite storm.
Some one pulled out the DVD movies not the "normal ones", later a member of the crew was overseen in the facility. In the galley that night the observer made it known to every one in the dinning area and the laughter broke out and the pointed comment of homosexually came out, it went on for five minutes. I did nothing to stop this action. The person left and went to his bunk midnight sift came around he was not on deck, a deck had was sent to round him up.
This person left his wife a 4 year daughter and 2 year boy behind, this was over some words that could never be taken back.
This makes me just as guilty for doing nothing, I sat and watched I didn't think it was funny
All it took was 5 minutes and it changed the persons life and how they saw them selves enough to kill them self.
Later it would be labeled as and accident at sea, transported dead/ reported alive, this was a cover up/SOP started CPR etc...
This person was Dead at sea not DOA
cyber bullying widely excepted on Xbox
http://www.google.co...159&bih=625
Cyber Bullying even happens on Minecraftforum.net
I think Sir Isaac Newton said it best "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" as his second rule I found to be true for words and actions that can never be taken back "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it."
Not a day goes by that I don't say this to myself "If I could take that word back, if I could only do this differently."
I wish I knew every things today back in the past and what my actions of doing nothing would have.
I could have prevented so many things a simple miss spoken words or actions to employees, wife or children, or to someone over Xbox live can never be taken back.
I have gone off lie a bomb on xbox with other adults who started in one me, they laughed then I realized they just don't care that's what they want this is how they role and they do this because they want a response, and feel like they are in control. well here is the truth they are only in control if you give them control. unplug, kick, mute, submit player review "not preferred" next "file complaint", and block communications,
Why get drained
This is what brought me to post in this thread
I had a war in my house last night between an 18 year old and a 20 old over minecraft over what I don't know what I am still trying to figure it out they are a room apart, the 15 year will not play mine craft ever again. the wife wants it out of the house.. Both doors remain locked with words flying between the walls
Two adults ready to move out over a game slamming doors, doors over shut, shouting at the top of their lungs.
I think part of it is passed down or acquired do to parents failing to respond to the needs of their kids, I am guilty of it as well I was offshore most of their lives. They learned how to cope on their own without a father. I can admit to part of this is being my fault..
In five minutes you can change a person life be it on deck or on Xbox live.
Project Aztec Server Stats: Rage Quits - 132 Deaths - 311 Survivors - 13, 11:36
It's an idea, but I think they usually just strike up another email account and return as someone else.
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Forum AdminThere's a reason we don't allow griefer lists on the forums. It's very hard to prove, and a lot of the arguments boil down to he said she said. It was also the case that many innocent people were branded as a griefer when it was really a griefer themselves, or just someone that had a bone to pick with the other person.
If that's the case, moderators and admins have ways of telling if someone makes another account.
I'm glad that they give the moderators and admins some addiitonal tools to help them, but I still don't envy their job. It still must be difficult.
I would be opposed to maintaining public lists of griefers for the very reasons you state.
Yea, I understand. I was actualy refering to the forum griefer that posted in every thread about having bowel movements.
On the subject of a black list. It has been suggested to me that we have a web page with a 'wall of shame' for griefers but honestly several of the people I have banned from my own server I would not be comfortable putting on a list like that. Circumstantially I was 80% certain they were guilty so I told them that and said I could be wrong but I'm not taking the chance. On a 24/7 server and with the limited tools we have to protect ourselves I have to be aggresive in keeping the server griefer free for everyone. Even with 11 other moderators on the server it's still a constant chore to police for griefers when we bring new poeple in.
The only ones I would be comfortable black listing were those I have seen myself and thier actions could in no way be construed as pranks. There are a few other people running servers that thier word would be enough for me to blacklist someone. On the positive side thier vouching for someone means the person gets instant priveleges on my map if there's room.
For now we just informally pass names around as issues come up.
I don't believe that a black list would be a very effective solution anyway. With monthly accounts available, they could set up new gamertags almost as easily as new emails and new IDs on the forums. Like the forums, probably Live has means of tracking this sort of activity, but I think they are probably unlikely to ban people of paying for new gamertags before those gamertags actually take part in something wrong. It would be just too risky for them from a legal perspective.
There simply needs to be better tools available to the hosts to quickly restore griefed worlds without giving griefers even the "satisfaction" of causing an exit without saving (rage quit). Yes, probably some hosts could use the tools to pad the leaderboards, but trust has to be placed somewhere at some point... and given such a choice, I think, it's probably best placed in the people who make the investment to host others in their worlds.
Aside: Yes, that forum member seemed to have had a bit of a meltdown last night. I'm not sure who he might have been, but I actually hope he's OK.
Some stuff has been said, and you have clarified that your griefing tended toward the retaliatory...
However, taking your quote as is (seperate from your specific circumstance), what good you do to help stray dogs is only good toward stray dogs. The guy you griefed is not the getting any good from you, only your bad.
So the scales are still lopsided for him. You have done him wrong, and unless you make restitution to him, you still have that bad karma hanging over you.
this ain't rocket science. If a black kid says it hurts his feelings when you call him the N-word, it don't matter if YOU don't think it is hurtful.
in most cases, the hurt person feels they have little chance of getting you to behave better, so they don't even try. In current events, this is why there's such a big deal about how the military handles Sexual Assault incidents. The victims didn't think it would help if they stood up, and they were right.
Getting your house blown up by a jerk isn't the worst problem to have in your life. As my prior example, there's worse things people have endured. However, there's a whole lot of little hurts people endure because jerks enjoy getting their fun at other people's expense. Getting bullied affects people for life. It usually doesn't make them stronger, instead it piles a ton of self-doubt and weakness on them that holds them back most of their life. that's a waste. And it's all because somebody put their sadistic fun as being more important.
So anybody who thinks griefing doesn't hurt people, is demonstrating a lack of empathy, which is a sociapathic trait. These kind of people get off on victimizing others and frankly, with 7 billion people on the planet to pick from, we don't need sociopaths wrecking things for the rest of us.
IN the GOM we have a "good ol boys list" or "black list" or "white list"
you can call it what ever you want "KioriBug" called it right it is abused like a hammer more good people end up on then bad people. often I would watch a new deck hand write a JSA on a rig for a near miss then get run off and not be able to find any more work and call me for work I would send them out they would get sent back to the shop on the truck with a request for a new hand before they ever got out to the rig.
This happens all the time. It is called abuse of power and people love to do this.
You might as well get use to the abuse. I try to tell my sons that it does not work. and I hate online cowards because I cant lay them out at some dock. please now do not do this offshore this is a federal offense in most waters and of any cost line off any country. never strike any one offshore. bite your hand, drag up call it a day and go home it is not worth spend the rest of your life in prison for hitting some one trolling you off shore.
Use Xbox as a learning place to control your self before going off shore once your offshore you can only go as far as the edge of the rig or the vessel. if you cant control your self on Xbox then you don't want to be offshore then on a coastguard cutter headed to the dark side.
The fact is these lists are no stranger any where in any place. Kid "A" goes to school and gets in to trouble while adjusting to the rules they are tagged as a trouble maker. from that point on grade after grader it follows them.
They say it doesn't it does I went to collage and volunteered in a public school system as an Aid for part of a semester till the book work got to heavy and this is were I found out this went on big time I would listened to teachers talk about kids like they were demon spawn from the nether.
I loved the "didn't see didn't happen policy, don't deal with it" that worked out real well for the runts of the class.
I new why kids were giving up and felt like they were not getting a second chance, because they weren't and still aren't today 30 years later, I had to think twice on the years I cant believe that many years have passed that quickly, seems like we were just cruising AIA for spring yesterday.. If anyone tells you different it is a lie I watch it happen again with one of mine again because of a learning disability
When you get to be my age you get to see allot of things, I cant recall them all I do remember some. Like I said it fall back to our selves and the way let things happen.
People want to take the effort to hammer people like nails everyday it happens all the time, "GOT TO HAMMER THAT DOG BACK DOWN IN TO PLACE RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! RAP! . Snap Crackle Pop Bang"
"all you have to do is rub one person the wrong way and it spreads like wild fire."
I am remembering quick and it is returning back to me on how the games are played. not a day I cant feel the blood about to drip down my back or have to keep the one eye open.
Same GOM games, I was lucky not to end up on the list I got so very close at times.
I can just feel the "Love some times" Please every one "Stand up and say hallelujah brother and sister" give me a "big hallelujah" let me hear the back row now come on now I know you can do it.....
My tee shirt says by the way "Sarcasm is just another free service I offer" I had to throw the last parts in because it is so frustrating. Society is the problem, and yet Society can fix the problem if they wanted to.
Project Aztec Server Stats: Rage Quits - 132 Deaths - 311 Survivors - 13, 11:36
http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html
http://news.jrn.msu.edu/bullying/2012/02/15/video-game-griefers/
An issue with either black lists or white lists is that they both can be abused and used in ways to actually bully people as well. White lists sound like a kinder solution, but anyone who has ever been left too last when team selection at school was taking place can attest to the fact that being left out of the "in" group can feel just as lousy as being singled out as having done something wrong that you haven't necessarily done. I think a better solution is to provide server hosts with tools to quickly and efficiently undo the damage; thereby, lessening the overall effect of the griefers and, hopefully, the pleasure the griefer derives from it.
The first article was really good but when I read the second one and see that the person complaining has griefed others themselves then it doesn't seem the same.
If we just had a time stamp list for players on the server showing exactly when people got on and off would help alot. Maybe even a coordinate position map also that just keeps the last 24 hours of players positions on the server. Those 2 things would not take much to accomplish. There are some better anti-griefer methods like property claims where you are the only one that can build/mine etc inside that area but that would take more time on developers part.
It seems reasonable that if we are going to get larger maps and more multiplayer on xbox one that griefer prevention would take priority.