One of the best trolls (in the sense at being great at trolling, not necessarily an endorsement or excuse of his doing this) I've ever seen would insult you and irritate the hell out of you with inference. He would never come out and say you're stupid, but he would very cleverly imply it. So he was not violating the terms of service, but invariably the people he targeted would lose their cool and hit back with direct attacks, getting themselves in trouble.
Again, it was antisocial behavior and antagonistic, but I couldn't help but admire how well he engineered it.
I knew someone on MCF almost identical to that. He was practically my nemesis, but at the same time I couldn't help but respect how well he could break someone down and get into their head. He could have made a great interrogator.
The only time I "troll" is with my friends. We play fun little tricks on each other. I don't grief, because I know how upsetting this can be. I set up a piston clock with in it to make noise under my friends house. A harmless little prank we can have a laugh about.
My friends and I mess with each other like that. We play split-screen a lot, and whoever leaves the room usually comes back to find that they've been entombed in obsidian or something. XD It's harmless, like you say, and we would never damage each other's builds or anything like that. I may steal your noisy piston clock idea, that's brilliant!
As for actual griefers...I just pity them. They must have terrible lives if they think it's funny to ruin the creations of random strangers. They're like the bullies who smash another kid's science fair project because they were too stupid to come up with their own. Poor pathetic creatures.
So what would you is the term you would use for pranking a friend or my little sister? We are always messing around with each other. If it crosses the line and someone gets upset, it immediately stops. I don't do this in others worlds, unless they are the same way as me and we do prank "wars". So again, what would you call this?
There is definitely a difference between pranking and griefing. Even amongst family and friends. My example (post #38) is good way to see it. Griefing is done with malicious intent. Pranking often is done for "kicks and giggles" even when it has undesired consequences. True pranks don't harm anything or hurt anyone's feelings and often simply makes everyone have a good laugh. Griefing takes pranks to a whole 'nother level as griefers seem intent on causing actual in-game damage and hurt feelings. There's a fine line between the two. Understanding the difference, however, is difficult. In our house, whether or not someone's work took damage or they had their feelings hurt is where we decide that a prank has become a grief. Every one is different though. We have a family friend (he's 8) who really likes to blow things up in MC and doesn't seem able to yet learn the difference between having fun and being mean in-game. Thus, when he visits, he only is allowed to play his worlds and he plays them all in creative. Honestly, some of the craters and such left by his explosions are pretty awesome. Of course, that wouldn't excuse his behavior in any of our worlds.
Then again, this is only how i define/see it. Others' opinions could be vastly different than mine.
As for actual griefers...I just pity them. They must have terrible lives if they think it's funny to ruin the creations of random strangers. They're like the bullies who smash another kid's science fair project because they were too stupid to come up with their own. Poor pathetic creatures.
I have a met a few of my son's IRL acquaintances who have griefed us in online gaming and not just in Minecraft. These young men, and one young lady, are no different offline as they are also the kid who would smash another's science fair project because it was better than theirs. I'm not entirely sure if bullying offline equals griefing online, but the two definitely seem to be related.
most grifers are pathetic little kids whos parents dont care for them, and let the xbox babysit
Most of the griefers i have met offline have parents who have taught them they can do no wrong and are "always a winner". Nearly a third of the griefers i've met online are much closer to my age, which is not young. While i don't think your theory has no merit, i do believe that young kids being "babysat" by the tele make up only a small minority of griefers.
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~My problem is a simple one: I'm severely allergic to stupid.~
I'm 45 years old, my daughter is 9 and my son is 6. We play together on splitscreen, usually peaceful mode.
My daughter is that point in a young girls life where every surprise is met with a shriek and ghost stories are in constant demand. Naturally, I have told the stories of Herobrine, going so far as to convince her that naturally occuring structures such as strongholds, mineshafts, etc. were not built by me....
Ergo, when the opportunity presented itself to sneak onto our shared world and booby trap the house she built with a BUD-based noteblock system that immitated the sound of someone walking around underground, I jumped at the chance.
This is a prank. (It worked great, too. She wouldn't go in her own house until I took her down and showed her the redstone wiring. Then I taught her how to wire it up herself.)
My son, on the other hand, likes to build flint and steel and then run around setting every grass square on fire (I have fire spreads turned off). Aside from the obvious questions about pyromania, this is griefing. All he knows is that it drives his sister nuts and he gets a rise out of her.
There's your difference. A prank is something that both parties can appreciate after the fact and may even learn from. Griefing is complete immaturity coupled with attention seeking.
See this is where you start over-complicating things and not realize the reason for griefing. Do people prank other people, because of some pent up rage against people? Or is it simply funny to them, picture griefing as a more elaborate online prank. We don't do it because we had "daddy issues" or other social problem, we do it because it is honestly quite funny. Call it what you want, but griefing is a legitimate play style, there's almost an art to it. You have to deceive the griefed, sneak around, the fear of getting caught, etc etc. When you put it all together it really is a quite fun alternative to playing minecraft "the right way".
Congratulations, you've perfected the "art" of being a major jerk to random people for your own selfish giggles. You should be very proud of yourself.
Also, griefing may be a "fun alternative" type of gameplay to you, but it's cruel and sadistic no matter how you spin it. You're LITERALLY getting joy from ruining something that someone else built/made/earned. You say that griefers don't grief due to Daddy issues and other problems, but someone who spends so much time perfecting their ability to be a gigantic donkeyhole clearly has some kind of issue going on, whether they realize/admit it or not.
Hmm, I've not yet met any griefers in Minecraft, but then again i only play with a small group of guys i know personally and a few people I've met here and there who are of a similar mindset as myself. I have always wondered about the psychology of a griefer, though, in the same way as some people find themselves drawn to the challenge of trying to understand the minds of serial killers.
I'm no stranger to Youtube and know that for every video showing you how to build a neat contraption there are at least 5 more out there showing some person, admittedly they usually seem to be pre-teen to teenage boys, bragging about their amazing grief. Even then, I know that there are older griefers and that they aren't all little boys with some unexplainable chip on their shoulders. I've even sat down and watched a few grief videos just to try and wrap my mind around it as an entertainment concept. It might be because i'm nearly 30 and remember when online gaming was still a fringe hobby, and not yet a mainstream staple, but i just don't see the appeal and suspect that it may all be rooted in something a bit after my time.
I've read the comments left by admitted griefers, most of whom seem to be vigilante griefers, which is fine i suppose, but carries with it the same risks as any other form of vigilanteism - Accidents are going to happen.
I myself took up the task of leveling a mountain near a project my friends and I were working on and got a little to carried away with TNT. Murphy's Law was in full effect as the initial blast knocked a few TNT blocks out away from the mountain and carried them over to where the others were putting the finishing touches on a very fancy cathedral. Now from their point of view it could be argued that i just bombed a church and as such must be not only a griefer, but a heinous blasphemer, too!
If not for the fact that we're all friends here and i could explain what just happened, apologize for my lack of foresight, and help clean the mess up, I could have been labeled a griefer and kick-ban-delete-unfriend-report-countergriefed by a vigilante, who I am sure "knows better", as all vigilantes profess when pressed.
I really don't see counter-griefing as being a solution. You have to remember to lead by example lest you find yourself following in your enemy's footsteps. Who knows where that path leads, perhaps after you've struck your killing blow, you find that you quite like the taste of blood! In fact after a while you find yourself relishing it and lusting after the feelings it brings. Perhaps you find yourself strolling into an NPC village with just the skin on your model and a flint and steel in your pocket, but by the time you leave there's nothing but floating panes of glass, barren farms, and gravel roads to nowhere left behind standing a silent vigil to the sleeping monster you've awakened inside of you.
Going back to the guys who seem to be in it "4 teh lols", I still don't really understand the mindset. I do however understand my mindset on Minecraft. You see, to me it's a bit more than 'just a game'. it's a creative artistic tool that I use to express my ideas and emotions in a 3D environment. I play the game not for a challenge, as even on it's hardest setting the game really isn't tough at all, but more as a relaxation method the same way someone else might relax by building a ship in a bottle, sculpting the gentle waves of sand in a zen garden, or slowly molding a piece of pottery into shape! The game is my way to unwind and refresh myself after grinding through a long day at a dead-end job that is about as intellectually stimulating and emotionally enriching as a 24-hour Honey Boo Boo marathon! (Seriously, kids - Customer Service, Not Even Once!)
I have actually invested weeks worth of time on some projects to be enjoyed by my friends and myself. I can reaffirm some of the sentiment mentioned earlier, once you've spent that much time trenching out a complex sewer system for a city, you become pretty attached to it even if there's a chance no one will stumble upon it! Still, knowing that the only way someone will find it is if they have a lucky accident with a creeper and blow the thing open, doesn't diminish the pride you take in the project. (In fact, I look forward to its accidental discovery as it's going to be one of those glorious 'Oh, my God!' moments that I know will stick with people.)
To an outside observer, I'm sure it's just a dank tube with water in it, but to me, it's a project that took me ages as I kept running into various road blocks along the way, had a complete redesign for functionality's sake, and then a refacing when new blocks were added into the game.
Still, my mindset won't help us understand that of the griefers, nor will hours of theory-crafting. Sure, we can compare them with bullies as their actions do tend to run parallel, but that only seems to gloss over things the same way lumping any group in with another does. We all know there's a fundamental difference between Xbox and Playstation fanboys, but to an outsider they are just gamers. Even to some PC users they're both just console gamers, one in the same. I think this may be the root behind the mislabeling of griefers as trolls and simple bullies. I really think there's more to it than just being bullies for the sake of bullying. However, in order to fully understand it we'll need to talk to more confessed griefers.
We can't possibly understand this by talking to only one person who engages in the acts, in just the same way as we can't understand the world of professional sports by only talking to Jeff Gordon - to some enthusiasts, he's not even an athlete!
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we're going to have to actually seek out griefers, sit down with them, and try to understand them as people and not as a stereotype. Then, and only then, can we find the answer to the question that brought us all here!
"I'm feeling brave and I feel like being a sod. I KNOW! I'll go on someone's server and break everything they own!"
Thats the way I see it. And, tbh, I really think that Mrpotatoe (sorry if this is late, i've read up to page 2) should actually stop trying to come up with excuses as to why it is fine. It really isn't. Call me deep, call me overreacting, but if you're a griefer, I don't want to know you. Unless it's on a faction server, or a zombie server, or somewhere where griefing is the main point. Even then, going over the top and camping, trolling and greifing still makes me annoyed. I'll probably get flamed and whined at, but this is what I think, and if you think i'm overreacting on the whole 'Griefers are people who you don't want to know' thing, try getting someone to demolish a project that took you 7 and a half weeks of long, hard work. Which you did in hardcore difficulty. That is why griefers are basically devil spawn to me.
You're all taking this to seriously lol.Griefing is not bullying and people do not do it because they are unhappy they do it because it is fun.Minecraft is only a game and it is so easy to prevent griefing.I grief sometimes but most of the time I help people with their creations.Most of the people that I grief have been swearing at me for no reason.So what would you call bullying somebody swearing at you for no reason or somebody destroying a creation in a game?
You're all taking this to seriously lol.Griefing is not bullying and people do not do it because they are unhappy they do it because it is fun.Minecraft is only a game and it is so easy to prevent griefing.I grief sometimes but most of the time I help people with their creations.Most of the people that I grief have been swearing at me for no reason.So what would you call bullying somebody swearing at you for no reason or somebody destroying a creation in a game?
Both. Bullying and retaliatory bullying are still bullying. Both show a complete lack of respect for the other person. There really is no good reason for swearing at someone OR for destrying their creation in a game. The second one is just using the first as a rationalization.
I've read through the entire thread and nobody said anything that proves that griefing is bullying.
Why?
Of course, all of this thread consists of people expressing their own opinions. That bullying is even bullying is often pretty much a question of opinion. From my own experience, that opinion often varies depending on whether or not one is the bully or the victim.
The above linked article in Wikipedia on bullying includes the concept of socially isolating the victim as a part of bullying. Griefing a person's world tends to have the effect of causing them to become very wary of socializing with others in the gaming community (e.g. they stop freely inviting players into their worlds because they fear being griefed)... in effect, isolating them socially. The Wikipedia also suggests that a motive for bullying is to gain power over the victim; and several posters have discussed this concept in connection with griefing already in detail.
Once I followed a friend into a game, the houses were very lovely as they used to be village homes but were then converted into nice player homes. When I met the host he had a real bad attitude, but he had quite the talent for leadership. At times in his world his attitude would make me feel strong griefing feelings, I ended up friending him when I judged his actions and not words. After being friends for a while I joined the clan he was in, he was co-boss and the main boss was a real nice guy who could build magnificent structures. Now I help him with big projects and play clan games with them, such as Hunger Games and Halo customs. In retrospect it was a good time.
Are we talking about XBox or Computer edition, because I'm talking about Computer. And if they get annoyed to the point where they're leaving the game that is social isolation, as they are no longer playing with other players. And yes, it does make them less trusting of other people in general. I have been griefed many times, so do not second guess me.
since this is in the 360 section, i would assume the default version here would be for the 360...
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Retired StaffI knew someone on MCF almost identical to that. He was practically my nemesis, but at the same time I couldn't help but respect how well he could break someone down and get into their head. He could have made a great interrogator.
My friends and I mess with each other like that. We play split-screen a lot, and whoever leaves the room usually comes back to find that they've been entombed in obsidian or something. XD It's harmless, like you say, and we would never damage each other's builds or anything like that. I may steal your noisy piston clock idea, that's brilliant!
As for actual griefers...I just pity them. They must have terrible lives if they think it's funny to ruin the creations of random strangers. They're like the bullies who smash another kid's science fair project because they were too stupid to come up with their own. Poor pathetic creatures.
Then again, this is only how i define/see it. Others' opinions could be vastly different than mine.
I have a met a few of my son's IRL acquaintances who have griefed us in online gaming and not just in Minecraft. These young men, and one young lady, are no different offline as they are also the kid who would smash another's science fair project because it was better than theirs. I'm not entirely sure if bullying offline equals griefing online, but the two definitely seem to be related.
Most of the griefers i have met offline have parents who have taught them they can do no wrong and are "always a winner". Nearly a third of the griefers i've met online are much closer to my age, which is not young. While i don't think your theory has no merit, i do believe that young kids being "babysat" by the tele make up only a small minority of griefers.
My daughter is that point in a young girls life where every surprise is met with a shriek and ghost stories are in constant demand. Naturally, I have told the stories of Herobrine, going so far as to convince her that naturally occuring structures such as strongholds, mineshafts, etc. were not built by me....
Ergo, when the opportunity presented itself to sneak onto our shared world and booby trap the house she built with a BUD-based noteblock system that immitated the sound of someone walking around underground, I jumped at the chance.
This is a prank. (It worked great, too. She wouldn't go in her own house until I took her down and showed her the redstone wiring. Then I taught her how to wire it up herself.)
My son, on the other hand, likes to build flint and steel and then run around setting every grass square on fire (I have fire spreads turned off). Aside from the obvious questions about pyromania, this is griefing. All he knows is that it drives his sister nuts and he gets a rise out of her.
There's your difference. A prank is something that both parties can appreciate after the fact and may even learn from. Griefing is complete immaturity coupled with attention seeking.
Congratulations, you've perfected the "art" of being a major jerk to random people for your own selfish giggles. You should be very proud of yourself.
Also, griefing may be a "fun alternative" type of gameplay to you, but it's cruel and sadistic no matter how you spin it. You're LITERALLY getting joy from ruining something that someone else built/made/earned. You say that griefers don't grief due to Daddy issues and other problems, but someone who spends so much time perfecting their ability to be a gigantic donkeyhole clearly has some kind of issue going on, whether they realize/admit it or not.
I'm no stranger to Youtube and know that for every video showing you how to build a neat contraption there are at least 5 more out there showing some person, admittedly they usually seem to be pre-teen to teenage boys, bragging about their amazing grief. Even then, I know that there are older griefers and that they aren't all little boys with some unexplainable chip on their shoulders. I've even sat down and watched a few grief videos just to try and wrap my mind around it as an entertainment concept. It might be because i'm nearly 30 and remember when online gaming was still a fringe hobby, and not yet a mainstream staple, but i just don't see the appeal and suspect that it may all be rooted in something a bit after my time.
I've read the comments left by admitted griefers, most of whom seem to be vigilante griefers, which is fine i suppose, but carries with it the same risks as any other form of vigilanteism - Accidents are going to happen.
I myself took up the task of leveling a mountain near a project my friends and I were working on and got a little to carried away with TNT. Murphy's Law was in full effect as the initial blast knocked a few TNT blocks out away from the mountain and carried them over to where the others were putting the finishing touches on a very fancy cathedral. Now from their point of view it could be argued that i just bombed a church and as such must be not only a griefer, but a heinous blasphemer, too!
If not for the fact that we're all friends here and i could explain what just happened, apologize for my lack of foresight, and help clean the mess up, I could have been labeled a griefer and kick-ban-delete-unfriend-report-countergriefed by a vigilante, who I am sure "knows better", as all vigilantes profess when pressed.
I really don't see counter-griefing as being a solution. You have to remember to lead by example lest you find yourself following in your enemy's footsteps. Who knows where that path leads, perhaps after you've struck your killing blow, you find that you quite like the taste of blood! In fact after a while you find yourself relishing it and lusting after the feelings it brings. Perhaps you find yourself strolling into an NPC village with just the skin on your model and a flint and steel in your pocket, but by the time you leave there's nothing but floating panes of glass, barren farms, and gravel roads to nowhere left behind standing a silent vigil to the sleeping monster you've awakened inside of you.
Going back to the guys who seem to be in it "4 teh lols", I still don't really understand the mindset. I do however understand my mindset on Minecraft. You see, to me it's a bit more than 'just a game'. it's a creative artistic tool that I use to express my ideas and emotions in a 3D environment. I play the game not for a challenge, as even on it's hardest setting the game really isn't tough at all, but more as a relaxation method the same way someone else might relax by building a ship in a bottle, sculpting the gentle waves of sand in a zen garden, or slowly molding a piece of pottery into shape! The game is my way to unwind and refresh myself after grinding through a long day at a dead-end job that is about as intellectually stimulating and emotionally enriching as a 24-hour Honey Boo Boo marathon! (Seriously, kids - Customer Service, Not Even Once!)
I have actually invested weeks worth of time on some projects to be enjoyed by my friends and myself. I can reaffirm some of the sentiment mentioned earlier, once you've spent that much time trenching out a complex sewer system for a city, you become pretty attached to it even if there's a chance no one will stumble upon it! Still, knowing that the only way someone will find it is if they have a lucky accident with a creeper and blow the thing open, doesn't diminish the pride you take in the project. (In fact, I look forward to its accidental discovery as it's going to be one of those glorious 'Oh, my God!' moments that I know will stick with people.)
To an outside observer, I'm sure it's just a dank tube with water in it, but to me, it's a project that took me ages as I kept running into various road blocks along the way, had a complete redesign for functionality's sake, and then a refacing when new blocks were added into the game.
Still, my mindset won't help us understand that of the griefers, nor will hours of theory-crafting. Sure, we can compare them with bullies as their actions do tend to run parallel, but that only seems to gloss over things the same way lumping any group in with another does. We all know there's a fundamental difference between Xbox and Playstation fanboys, but to an outsider they are just gamers. Even to some PC users they're both just console gamers, one in the same. I think this may be the root behind the mislabeling of griefers as trolls and simple bullies. I really think there's more to it than just being bullies for the sake of bullying. However, in order to fully understand it we'll need to talk to more confessed griefers.
We can't possibly understand this by talking to only one person who engages in the acts, in just the same way as we can't understand the world of professional sports by only talking to Jeff Gordon - to some enthusiasts, he's not even an athlete!
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we're going to have to actually seek out griefers, sit down with them, and try to understand them as people and not as a stereotype. Then, and only then, can we find the answer to the question that brought us all here!
There... consider yourself quoted and responded to... I agree with you!
stop defending griefing,
Both. Bullying and retaliatory bullying are still bullying. Both show a complete lack of respect for the other person. There really is no good reason for swearing at someone OR for destrying their creation in a game. The second one is just using the first as a rationalization.
Have you read through the thread at all? The answer to your question has already been presented by several posters to it.
Of course, all of this thread consists of people expressing their own opinions. That bullying is even bullying is often pretty much a question of opinion. From my own experience, that opinion often varies depending on whether or not one is the bully or the victim.
http://www.minecraft...-bugs-list-tu9/
The above linked article in Wikipedia on bullying includes the concept of socially isolating the victim as a part of bullying. Griefing a person's world tends to have the effect of causing them to become very wary of socializing with others in the gaming community (e.g. they stop freely inviting players into their worlds because they fear being griefed)... in effect, isolating them socially. The Wikipedia also suggests that a motive for bullying is to gain power over the victim; and several posters have discussed this concept in connection with griefing already in detail.
Some people think that griefing is just having fun. Some people think its antisocial behavior and inexcusable.
I don't see either side giving an inch, no matter how many pages we add to the discussion.
So is that a call to a mod to please lock the thread, so the "debate" will no longer be at a stalemate?
Not at all. Just my observation. Debate away if you want. BTW, since when does locking a thread resolve a stalemate?
since this is in the 360 section, i would assume the default version here would be for the 360...