Ok, so after playing this game since the Xbox release I have come to a conclusion:
4J studios has 4JSteve locked in a dungeon and chained to the wall. As if that weren't bad enough, he is kept in solitary confinement and left to do the bug testing all by his lonesome. I say lets end his suffering!
Lols, ok now to get serious. How do we help poor little ol Steve? Well, one of the first things I did was to think about what is different between the PC updates and The Xboxs? Beta testing. As most of us know, Mojang drops snapshots, or betas, of their updates and lets the community test them. 4J on the other hand, has to do all of the testing completely on their own.
So I thought, Well how can that be changed? Then I remembered playing the BF3 beta on live and it hit me. Bear with me guys.
What if 4J were allowed to drop a beta version of their latest update to say a select number(the more the merrier) of existing Xbox mc players to test for them? The way I see it working is like this. The beta would be its own separate download, meaning it wouldn't be able to use your existing saves. It could also have a "timer" which renders it useless after a certain date. 4J could implement some kind of data monitoring on this version to help them pick out the problems, and of course have access to user comments here on the forums. Even a week worth of testing on this scale might help us avoid the increasing amount of bugs we are encountering with new updates.
What if instead of every other update being a bug fix, each one could have new goodies? What if we could help 4J narrow the bugs down in a much faster time period?
I had this idea a week ago and its been knawing on my brain ever since. I also haven't seen it suggested yet, so just maybe it hasn't been thought of.
Your input? Ideas? Flaming burns on how dumb I am? Please leave them below.
P.S. I thought about posting this in the bug thread but I wanted maximum exposure from the regulars here so that's why its in general.
When we get the update, quite a few of us find the other lil' bugs/glitches, and 4J looks into all of that, and that is why there is a bug fix after each update. It is for the community that found what 4J missed or didn't notice in their testing...
I like the way they are doing it, so what you are proposing would actually in reality put a bit more pressure on them... They have days off like us.. Well the people that have a job. Doing it that way would be almost jail time since you would be putting them further into the cell as you put it. They are doing just fine, and in a way it is coming out pretty quick as it is.
Well that is my opinion of the matter...:D
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My First World, always getting back to is a pleasure I enjoy with each new update that brings in more things to add in.
I think that would be a great Idea! Because I noticed more bugs after the bug update. Plus a bug that was never fixed with the Iron Doors. But yeah, The new update was awesome, because of the nether and the love mode. But more bugs were introduced. But I still love and play a lot.
First this is possible, but it can't be 'attached' to regular MC files and thus separate for maps, skins ect... I think its a good idea but getting 4J and M$ to agree is probably going to be pretty tough. I do believe 4J might be onboard with it but M$ is a total different story.
M$ believes thier cert testing to be fail proff and we all know thats hardly the case. I do believe that this is a excellent idea but because this is a XBLA title every snapshot would be subject to 'cert test first', and we know these can really slow things down.
Don't get me wrong i'm all for this, it would defiantly nail down bugs as a whole we the community can find bugs in moments that take them weeks to locate. At the same rate this snapshot can impede development as many users will provide insufficient data to help the developers and send them on a bug hunt that takes them hours and hours to widdle through all the code looking for something wrong with the code. For example some user says 'Cows are broken'. This would send developers back through all passive mob code and cows attempting to look for something thats broken. But then another user says 'If a cow takes any damage at all then it will no longer ever be able to breed'. Now the developer has something to go on and this narrows down whats wrong considerably.
In short I'm for it, but doubt it will happen, and if it ever does it needs to be organized, structured and carefully monitored, last thing we want is to slow development down, when we are aiming for the later.
When we get the update, quite a few of us find the other lil' bugs/glitches, and 4J looks into all of that, and that is why there is a bug fix after each update. It is for the community that found what 4J missed or didn't notice in their testing...
I like the way they are doing it, so what you are proposing would actually in reality put a bit more pressure on them... They have days off like us.. Well the people that have a job. Doing it that way would be almost jail time since you would be putting them further into the cell as you put it. They are doing just fine, and in a way it is coming out pretty quick as it is.
Well that is my opinion of the matter...
Um, I think you missed my point. The idea is that we can have many more testers than 4J could ever hope to employ, thus enabling them to get the bugs tracked down faster. It wouldn't require people to work anymore than they already do.
First this is possible, but it can't be 'attached' to regular MC files and thus separate for maps, skins ect... I think its a good idea but getting 4J and M$ to agree is probably going to be pretty tough. I do believe 4J might be onboard with it but M$ is a total different story.
M$ believes thier cert testing to be fail proff and we all know thats hardly the case. I do believe that this is a excellent idea but because this is a XBLA title every snapshot would be subject to 'cert test first', and we know these can really slow things down.
Don't get me wrong i'm all for this, it would defiantly nail down bugs as a whole we the community can find bugs in moments that take them weeks to locate. At the same rate this snapshot can impede development as many users will provide insufficient data to help the developers and send them on a bug hunt that takes them hours and hours to widdle through all the code looking for something wrong with the code. For example some user says 'Cows are broken'. This would send developers back through all passive mob code and cows attempting to look for something thats broken. But then another user says 'If a cow takes any damage at all then it will no longer ever be able to breed'. Now the developer has something to go on and this narrows down whats wrong considerably.
In short I'm for it, but doubt it will happen, and if it ever does it needs to be organized, structured and carefully monitored, last thing we want is to slow development down, when we are aiming for the later.
Micro$ofts cert testing has nothing to do with bugs, just the color of the x button and whatnot. I completely agree that a good structure and monitoring is essential to the idea working properly.
Oh and one more thing I missed. You are correct, each "snapshot" would require Ms cert testing for sure. But what If we got TU7 up to par by Jan 17th before it was released? Figure a week of Ms testing, than a week of us testing, than a week for 4J to fix it and bam! 4J could start onto the TU8 End update in the middle of Jan, instead of the TU9 End update on Feb 1st. This is how I see it happening. The initial update would be delayed by a week or two, but it doesn't require a bug fix TU, therefore overall, we get to were we all want to be faster.
It wouldn't pose any more risk to your console than the updates already do.
Those updates go into cert testing to make sure everything is working though. If I'm wrong it's because I'm thinking of my experience with the actual console updates. When you sign up for beta on those things they let you know ahead of time that it may cause your console to be rendered inoperable. I only figured the same would occur here.
Good point, but I think it would be avoidable in this situation. Plus I'm not advocating skipping the Ms cert process, for the safety of the testers consoles. It takes, I believe, 7-10 business days for that process. Even applied to every update we've had, if my idea works, it would have save us considerable time.
I suppose it really is all guessing and assuming unless a 4J employee chimes in to tell me either I'm a dumbass or a genius.
When we get the update, quite a few of us find the other lil' bugs/glitches, and 4J looks into all of that, and that is why there is a bug fix after each update. It is for the community that found what 4J missed or didn't notice in their testing...
I like the way they are doing it, so what you are proposing would actually in reality put a bit more pressure on them... They have days off like us.. Well the people that have a job. Doing it that way would be almost jail time since you would be putting them further into the cell as you put it. They are doing just fine, and in a way it is coming out pretty quick as it is.
Well that is my opinion of the matter...
As was said, you are missing the point by about a mile. With OP's proposed option, there is no need for a bugfix update. There isn't that one-month period in which features are broken and the forum is filled with rants. It eliminates the need for 4J to do any testing at all, freeing up time to work on the next update, perhaps even some DLC. Who knows, we could even see some texture packs before 4J is completely finished with updates.
The only thing I don't like about JSPRINGY's suggestion is that it came far too late. We only have maybe 2 - 3 more patches before we reach the equivalent of MCPC's 1.2.3. At that point, I'm almost positive 4J's time will be put exclusively into DLC.
As was said, you are missing the point by about a mile. With OP's proposed option, there is no need for a bugfix update. There isn't that one-month period in which features are broken and the forum is filled with rants. It eliminates the need for 4J to do any testing at all, freeing up time to work on the next update, perhaps even some DLC. Who knows, we could even see some texture packs before 4J is completely finished with updates.
The only thing I don't like about JSPRINGY's suggestion is that it came far too late. We only have maybe 2 - 3 more patches before we reach the equivalent of MCPC's 1.2.3. At that point, I'm almost positive 4J's time will be put exclusively into DLC.
Sadly I agree. Ah the clarity of hindsight. But who knows, maybe it will help if 4J intends on changing the game after 1.2.3. With completely new features never tried even on Pc, it could be even more helpfull.
Sadly I agree. Ah the clarity of hindsight. But who knows, maybe it will help if 4J intends on changing the game after 1.2.3. With completely new features never tried even on Pc, it could be even more helpfull.
What 4J wants to do, take the game in "its own direction" doesn't necessarily mean more free updates, and you know Microsoft has most likely already been pushing them towards the route of DLC. I'm sure Mojang had to twist Microsoft's collective arm a bit just to work out the free patches that 4J is using right now. This corporation dislikes anything that is free, unless it is labor, you yourself referred to it as Micro$oft. It is their console, and at the end of the day, they're the boss.
If 4J were to allow some of the more "proffesional" individuals within the MC360 bug fix community work closer with them somehow, that would help a lot. It would allow the bugs to be found faster and a bit more efficiently. Though the production rate of the bug fix wouldn't change much, the key 4J coders would still be doing the work alone. I think the only way to fasten up the process of Updating the game, would be for 4J to hire more workers overall.
Um, I think you missed my point. The idea is that we can have many more testers than 4J could ever hope to employ, thus enabling them to get the bugs tracked down faster. It wouldn't require people to work anymore than they already do.
....
And you missed mine. 4J will still have to look into those things to ensure that is what it is. We are not the ones programming it are we? It would be a little extra work, but more my point was the pressure would be more, not the work load. timeline things and deadlines always are a pain to some. we are already beta testing this and that by posting in the bugs thread. I just don't see the point in it when the way they are doing it currently is working fine. They test, then MS tests, Then we get a chance to see if anything strayed past those testings, then 4J goes back over and checks out the bugs once again that are still there or have shown up since release after the ms posts the update.
Basically it is like saying we don't do enough testing, even though we as a community do a far share, otherwise that bug thread would be not filling up quite quickly after that initial release of update. It is just the way I see things.
I am not missing the point, I understand where the OP is coming from. I just prefer the way it is so gives me time to play instead of worry. As I like it when I am able to help, but couldn't do that all the time otherwise would feel like work and stray from the primary reason I play in the first place...><
Anyway I mainly just stating my opinion of the matter, I just don't really like it, as on the pc I don't even use the snapshots as they are too buggy, and not all those things are going to be in the final product.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My First World, always getting back to is a pleasure I enjoy with each new update that brings in more things to add in.
As someone with way more test experience than most people (including cert testing), I'll give you a few reasons why this won't happen. (Please note, my comments apply only to XBOX, PC testing is different in nearly every way.)
Beta testing is more about feedback on the actual gameplay than it is about finding bugs.
Bugs submitted by the public are usually garbage. You can expect about 80% to be useless information or duplicate bugs.
The 20% that is left is usually common stuff that any tester would have caught.
Additionally, all of that data has to be translated and logged properly in a bug database (more work for 4J).
Microsoft is pretty strict on releasing content on XBL, running a Beta title and a current title isn't going to fly with them without a special arrangement, which is highly unlikely.
And as someone stated, we're getting closer to the "final" build, adding another process at this point is too complicated.
The reality of the situation is that although everyone thinks they can be a good tester, it's just not the case. There's a huge turnover in that job market for a reason. There are specific qualities needed. I've hired and fired plenty of testers, and I would take one good tester over 1,000 untrained public beta testers on any project.
I'd love beta testing for 4J
Ofcourse they should choose us on the forums as we have access to the bugs list maybe all the regular posters on these forums could get beta testing and posting access to a special beta testing bug thread.
4J would probably sort anything major first right? Tell us what they've worked on and let us test those to our hearts desire.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I put my shirt on one leg at a time, just like everybody else.
Again there is the issue of M$ cert testing, which would delay each and every snapshot by 1 week, meaning you would be reporting issues that are over a week old or more.
Can't see this happening but nice idea none the less.
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4J studios has 4JSteve locked in a dungeon and chained to the wall. As if that weren't bad enough, he is kept in solitary confinement and left to do the bug testing all by his lonesome. I say lets end his suffering!
Lols, ok now to get serious. How do we help poor little ol Steve? Well, one of the first things I did was to think about what is different between the PC updates and The Xboxs? Beta testing. As most of us know, Mojang drops snapshots, or betas, of their updates and lets the community test them. 4J on the other hand, has to do all of the testing completely on their own.
So I thought, Well how can that be changed? Then I remembered playing the BF3 beta on live and it hit me. Bear with me guys.
What if 4J were allowed to drop a beta version of their latest update to say a select number(the more the merrier) of existing Xbox mc players to test for them? The way I see it working is like this. The beta would be its own separate download, meaning it wouldn't be able to use your existing saves. It could also have a "timer" which renders it useless after a certain date. 4J could implement some kind of data monitoring on this version to help them pick out the problems, and of course have access to user comments here on the forums. Even a week worth of testing on this scale might help us avoid the increasing amount of bugs we are encountering with new updates.
What if instead of every other update being a bug fix, each one could have new goodies? What if we could help 4J narrow the bugs down in a much faster time period?
I had this idea a week ago and its been knawing on my brain ever since. I also haven't seen it suggested yet, so just maybe it hasn't been thought of.
Your input? Ideas? Flaming burns on how dumb I am? Please leave them below.
P.S. I thought about posting this in the bug thread but I wanted maximum exposure from the regulars here so that's why its in general.
When we get the update, quite a few of us find the other lil' bugs/glitches, and 4J looks into all of that, and that is why there is a bug fix after each update. It is for the community that found what 4J missed or didn't notice in their testing...
I like the way they are doing it, so what you are proposing would actually in reality put a bit more pressure on them... They have days off like us.. Well the people that have a job. Doing it that way would be almost jail time since you would be putting them further into the cell as you put it. They are doing just fine, and in a way it is coming out pretty quick as it is.
Well that is my opinion of the matter...:D
M$ believes thier cert testing to be fail proff and we all know thats hardly the case. I do believe that this is a excellent idea but because this is a XBLA title every snapshot would be subject to 'cert test first', and we know these can really slow things down.
Don't get me wrong i'm all for this, it would defiantly nail down bugs as a whole we the community can find bugs in moments that take them weeks to locate. At the same rate this snapshot can impede development as many users will provide insufficient data to help the developers and send them on a bug hunt that takes them hours and hours to widdle through all the code looking for something wrong with the code. For example some user says 'Cows are broken'. This would send developers back through all passive mob code and cows attempting to look for something thats broken. But then another user says 'If a cow takes any damage at all then it will no longer ever be able to breed'. Now the developer has something to go on and this narrows down whats wrong considerably.
In short I'm for it, but doubt it will happen, and if it ever does it needs to be organized, structured and carefully monitored, last thing we want is to slow development down, when we are aiming for the later.
Um, I think you missed my point. The idea is that we can have many more testers than 4J could ever hope to employ, thus enabling them to get the bugs tracked down faster. It wouldn't require people to work anymore than they already do.
It wouldn't pose any more risk to your console than the updates already do.
Micro$ofts cert testing has nothing to do with bugs, just the color of the x button and whatnot. I completely agree that a good structure and monitoring is essential to the idea working properly.
Thanks for the input guys!
Oh and one more thing I missed. You are correct, each "snapshot" would require Ms cert testing for sure. But what If we got TU7 up to par by Jan 17th before it was released? Figure a week of Ms testing, than a week of us testing, than a week for 4J to fix it and bam! 4J could start onto the TU8 End update in the middle of Jan, instead of the TU9 End update on Feb 1st. This is how I see it happening. The initial update would be delayed by a week or two, but it doesn't require a bug fix TU, therefore overall, we get to were we all want to be faster.
Those updates go into cert testing to make sure everything is working though. If I'm wrong it's because I'm thinking of my experience with the actual console updates. When you sign up for beta on those things they let you know ahead of time that it may cause your console to be rendered inoperable. I only figured the same would occur here.
Good point, but I think it would be avoidable in this situation. Plus I'm not advocating skipping the Ms cert process, for the safety of the testers consoles. It takes, I believe, 7-10 business days for that process. Even applied to every update we've had, if my idea works, it would have save us considerable time.
I suppose it really is all guessing and assuming unless a 4J employee chimes in to tell me either I'm a dumbass or a genius.
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Retired StaffAs was said, you are missing the point by about a mile. With OP's proposed option, there is no need for a bugfix update. There isn't that one-month period in which features are broken and the forum is filled with rants. It eliminates the need for 4J to do any testing at all, freeing up time to work on the next update, perhaps even some DLC. Who knows, we could even see some texture packs before 4J is completely finished with updates.
The only thing I don't like about JSPRINGY's suggestion is that it came far too late. We only have maybe 2 - 3 more patches before we reach the equivalent of MCPC's 1.2.3. At that point, I'm almost positive 4J's time will be put exclusively into DLC.
Sadly I agree. Ah the clarity of hindsight.
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Retired StaffWhat 4J wants to do, take the game in "its own direction" doesn't necessarily mean more free updates, and you know Microsoft has most likely already been pushing them towards the route of DLC. I'm sure Mojang had to twist Microsoft's collective arm a bit just to work out the free patches that 4J is using right now. This corporation dislikes anything that is free, unless it is labor, you yourself referred to it as Micro$oft.
And you missed mine. 4J will still have to look into those things to ensure that is what it is. We are not the ones programming it are we? It would be a little extra work, but more my point was the pressure would be more, not the work load. timeline things and deadlines always are a pain to some. we are already beta testing this and that by posting in the bugs thread. I just don't see the point in it when the way they are doing it currently is working fine. They test, then MS tests, Then we get a chance to see if anything strayed past those testings, then 4J goes back over and checks out the bugs once again that are still there or have shown up since release after the ms posts the update.
Basically it is like saying we don't do enough testing, even though we as a community do a far share, otherwise that bug thread would be not filling up quite quickly after that initial release of update. It is just the way I see things.
I am not missing the point, I understand where the OP is coming from. I just prefer the way it is so gives me time to play instead of worry. As I like it when I am able to help, but couldn't do that all the time otherwise would feel like work and stray from the primary reason I play in the first place...><
Anyway I mainly just stating my opinion of the matter, I just don't really like it, as on the pc I don't even use the snapshots as they are too buggy, and not all those things are going to be in the final product.
Some very good points there. Thats why I wanted to start this discussion. Thanks again!
Beta testing is more about feedback on the actual gameplay than it is about finding bugs.
Bugs submitted by the public are usually garbage. You can expect about 80% to be useless information or duplicate bugs.
The 20% that is left is usually common stuff that any tester would have caught.
Additionally, all of that data has to be translated and logged properly in a bug database (more work for 4J).
Microsoft is pretty strict on releasing content on XBL, running a Beta title and a current title isn't going to fly with them without a special arrangement, which is highly unlikely.
And as someone stated, we're getting closer to the "final" build, adding another process at this point is too complicated.
The reality of the situation is that although everyone thinks they can be a good tester, it's just not the case. There's a huge turnover in that job market for a reason. There are specific qualities needed. I've hired and fired plenty of testers, and I would take one good tester over 1,000 untrained public beta testers on any project.
Ofcourse they should choose us on the forums as we have access to the bugs list maybe all the regular posters on these forums could get beta testing and posting access to a special beta testing bug thread.
4J would probably sort anything major first right? Tell us what they've worked on and let us test those to our hearts desire.
Can't see this happening but nice idea none the less.