Hey everyone, first post on the forums, but I've been lurking for a few months. I am working on a rail system using redstone to control switches from a great distance away. Yes, I know, a lot of work, horribly inefficient, many other easier ways of doing it, etc... but it is an interesting logistical challenge which I enjoy.
So I started some tests in creative and ran redstone with appropriately placed repeaters over a few hundred blocks (I believe it's about 250 but I'll have to check). I was sending a two pulse signal with a certain delay between pulses to activate the appropriate AND gates on the other end. The pulses work, the AND gates work, all the track switching is working, but often the signal gets "stuck" about 150 blocks away from me or so. It doesn't always happen, but the system has to work all the time to be of any use.
A few important factors: I tried this first with a "two-way" redstone line using some two-way repeater designs I found online. Worked fine except for the distance issue. Thought the two-way repeaters could be the issue so I changed it to just one way and it still had problems. I set up some checkpoints along the line using pistons and the ones within about 150 blocks worked fine but beyond that would have some pretty severe problems (block disappearing but still being present, redstone not appearing activated but was, and a few other weird things I can't remember).
Anyone else had issues with redstone signals passing over long distances? I know Nose_job.. had a post about clocks staying active when the player was far away, but not sure if this is related.
I cannot say for sure myself, but I am working on a rail system where you can turn the powered rails on and off. What is your main goal with what you are doing? And what kind of gates do you have opening and closing? My gamertag is CPL Dom Caboose and I haven't messed with a lot of this because I like building structures more, but I have a good knowledge on how the circuitry would work. If you want to show me sometime, I would love to jump on and help you if possible. Shoot me a friend request or message sometime and we can work out a time to try it.
If i remember correctly theres has always been an issue where redstone wont work on chucks not currently rendered in. For instance if your circuit runs for 150 blocks but you only 100 blocks away from loaded in, your signal will not reach its goal. once you load that missing chunk after already starting your circuit chances are things will be messed up since they did not run its completed course while all chunks are loaded.
Now i'm no redstone expert by no means but this is just what I understood from the past lol.
One trick you might try is installing a dimensional anchor mod that allows you to have certain chunks always loaded so your redstone circuits will always be loaded in.
Hopefully that helps you out. good luck on your project!
One trick you might try is installing a dimensional anchor mod that allows you to have certain chunks always loaded so your redstone circuits will always be loaded in.
Have you tried removing the repeaters all together? Try building the old school RS torch repeater and see if that helps. It sounds like there isn't a problem with your wiring, just a conflict in game mechanics. Maybe that will help.
Hello OP, I actually ran into the same problem as you, although my reason for running the longer redstone lines was different. I'm building a redstone powered PVP objective map and needed multiple redstone lines running from one end to the other of the play area. I found like you that sometimes the redstone signal would stop at around 150 blocks away.
Having done some experimenting with mob farms I found the render distance to max out at around the same mark. So it looks like unless their is another player rendering that area for you, the redstone will never be consistent. I had to shrink down the area in the map I'm building a small amount to make sure that these areas would always be rendered in.
However I have heard rumours which I cannot confirm or deny that the chunk the main spawn for the world always stays loaded or rendered. I'm not sure if that can help you in any way or if it is true, but I wish you luck on your project
Thanks for all the feedback! This project has turned out more challenging (and more fun!) than I anticipated. CPLCaboose, thanks for the offer of help, but I don't play online. My kids use my gamertag to play Minecraft and I'm just not comfortable with not knowing who they might be interacting with.
The goal of the project is for each station to have a button for every possible destination. When the button is pushed, every track in the system necessary to get you to that destination is appropriately switched and away you go. The rail system will be a main loop around the world with sub lines going off to various stations.
The two-pulse "code" is set with an immediate first pulse and a second pulse delayed by a certain number of repeaters set to 4 tick delay. Each station will be assigned a number that indicates the number of repeaters necessary for that code.
So far I have figured out how to "encode" and "decode" the signal and only operate the appropriate stations. I have also figured out an off/on ramp design for each station so that each station has an inactive state allow carts from either direction to pass by without entering and to enter from either direction if the station is active. I have also figured out how to send the cart the correct way on the loop from the station depending on which station you are going to (this has to be determined on a station-by-station basis). (I learned the two-pulse idea from watching Etho - he was trying to do this with a mob in a cart sent ahead of him with him following at a predetermined delay - which is genius...but I don't think he ever actually got it to work and I have my doubts that it will every work reliably.)
JSPRINGY, I did try a "two-way repeater" design that did not use actual repeaters, just torches. I could send the encoded signal through 3 or 4 of these with no trouble but over a long distance the signal became unstable. I still don't think this was a limit of the repeater design because using actual repeaters reproduced the same result. My "two-way repeaters" used 4 torches and had a 2 tick delay with passing a signal through and I believe a 4 tick delay before they were ready to handle another signal.
I believe I've solved the problem, though. I'm working on the assumption that at some distance away from you the redstone just isn't calculated accurately by the xbox. So, I've designed "relay stations" that will accept the coded signal, store the code, and then release it when you pass a detector rail. This way you are always within range of the signal and the signal sort of follows you around the system. I tested it on a straight track over several hundred blocks and it worked great. The station you are trying to go to cannot be too close to the relay station or the signal won't have time to get to the track to make the switch, but that can just be factored into the system design. I also figured out that the same device that works as a "relay station" will work as a "destination chooser" in each station. This means each station becomes a relay station. It will get activated if it receives it's own code or will store and send the code for any other station when you pass by.
Right now I'm working on a small scale loop with 3 stations to see how that goes. This won't test the distance issue, but I'll go to a much larger test once this gets working.
One thing to note: I believe this system would be completely worthless in a multiplayer world. Every input automatically clears previous inputs. This means only one rider can be in the system at a time. If you are riding in a cart and someone else chooses a destination, it is quite possible that you would be redirected to that new destination.
With a bit of work, the relay system might be tweaked to only activate the section the rider is in and allow the rest of the track to be used by others so that, but I'm not sure that will work and will be a bit more of a challenge to figure out. Would have to figure out what would happen if they crossed...
One last thing in case someone is wondering... For the most part I'm not looking up how others have done similar things. I learned the basics of redstone and redstone logic gates by reading online but I am trying to design the rest of the stuff on my own.
rushzer0 - just saw your post as I was typing this novel. Thanks for the input. I actually think the storing and sending aspect of my design might have a lot of other uses. Would be interesting to look into. The spawn chuck being constantly loaded is interesting and I'll keep it in mind.
I love your idea of the relay stations. They are almost like a capacitor holding the signal until it's manually released (in your case by a detector rail) it is very clever. I think with enough of them built (every 150ish) blocks your system should work damn near flawlessly. I'm giving you a +1 because I may end up using this in my world for an overide to my system which requires all 8 players to push a ready button for the match to begin. Just incase people want to have a 3v3 I can have the switch at spawn accessible only to the host and have the relay activated by a detector rail on the tracks to the players spawn rooms. Haha I love Minecraft I came on here to try and help you and you helped me instead good show.
So I could have photos on my facebook account marked so that no one could see them but me, yet they could be seen on this site? Is there any other way? I've seen people upload pics from their phones - how do you do that? I use a projector so my minecraft screen is pretty big - I think about 90 inches in diagonal. The pics should turn out pretty good. Can you upload pictures directly into a forum post? I see a button for "my media" but don't see how to upload something to that.
Edit: Nevermind: found this explanation of how to use imgur.com I'll check that out. Yep, that will work...
ON MINECRAFT BU MORE SO ON XBOX360 EDITION REDSTONE WILL LAGG OR MESS UP IF ITS TO CLOSE TO A CHUNK THAT HAS OR IS BEEING LOADED THERE FOR THAT WOULD BE WHY YOUR REDSTONE SOMETIMES MESSES UP. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE I AM GOOD WITH REDSTONE SEND ME A MSG ON XBOx USERNAME(porkchop sees u)
As you mentioned, I did a test on this back in 1.7.3. Theoretically, your system should work. I never used this chunk rendering advantage in an actual build, only through experimentation, so more complex circuitry could cause issues. That still doesn't explain repeaters becoming stuck, dust inverting, etc. This specific problem sounds like corrupted blocks to me, which would make sense. My line was connected to a clock, therefore the line would be updated with each cycle, reversing any bugs which could be caused by a corrupted block.
It's also possible that one of the more recent updates could have have accidentally became the cause. It would be a good idea to take note as to where a problem occurs, and watch that spot through further testing. If it commonly fails in the same area, it would seem you have a corrupted block. Pinpoint the exact item where the bug occurs, break it and the block it is attached to, save and exit, reload, replace, and save again.
Hopefully this solves your problem. I would hate for long distance redstonery to be hindered or made completely impossible. It would crush my dreams of building MCXBLA's first LAN. Also, I've designed a transceiver if you're interested. It's somewhat similar to what you're talking about, except it uses binary logic instead of unary, much faster this way. It's infinitely expandable, and encodes a binary input into a string of 4-tick pulses. There is, of course, an initial pulse, telling the opposite transceiver when to write the data to built-in memory cells. The high point of my design is that both reading and writing can be performed by the same device. I thought about using two-way repeaters, but quickly scrapped the idea since it's 50% as efficient, takes up more space, (by cubic volume, anyway) and looks much uglier than having separate read and write lines. Later this will be expanded upon, a hub will be implemented for addressing, so a single location can be designated, while the others will ignore the data. At this point, I think I could safely call it a LAN, albeit a simplified and basic definition.
I was hoping you would jump in, Nose_job! I do wish there was a google translator for your redstone / computer terminology sometimes! I think there were two issues going on. The main one seemed mostly to be a rendering issue. It appeared that the XBOX would calculate the effect of the redstone without actually updating the graphics. This meant lines would be on but appear off, pistons would appear extended but wouldn't be and blocks would be present and blocking my movement but completely invisible. If it was just a rendering problem I think I could deal with it, but the track switching was the real issue. I thought maybe it would just look wrong but the cart would go in the right direction - but no such luck.
My relay stations (which will double as my destination selectors for my train stations) also both encode and decode the "codes" I am sending. I would love to compare designs, though it sounds like you are dealing with a much greater flow of "information" than I am. Mine can handle a two pulse signal and it is the number of 4 tick delays that tells it which "code" it is.
You know, my quote key would get less of a workout if I actually knew what to call this stuff!
I'll be taking some pics tonight after my kids are in bed. We've got 3 with one more on the way in the spring... Soon I'll be testing the theory that you can comfort a sleepless newborn and play minecraft at the same time. So far I've got the two oldest addicted to this game as well. I bought it for my middle child as "his" birthday present. That has worked out well for me...
I was hoping you would jump in, Nose_job! I do wish there was a google translator for your redstone / computer terminology sometimes! I think there were two issues going on. The main one seemed mostly to be a rendering issue. It appeared that the XBOX would calculate the effect of the redstone without actually updating the graphics. This meant lines would be on but appear off, pistons would appear extended but wouldn't be and blocks would be present and blocking my movement but completely invisible. If it was just a rendering problem I think I could deal with it, but the track switching was the real issue. I thought maybe it would just look wrong but the cart would go in the right direction - but no such luck.
Hmm... well that's definitely strange. Personally I've never seen this, since the line I observed myself was constantly being updated. At the same time, the fact still lies that my clock never became "stuck" or bugged out in any other way. This could be a problem exclusive to tracks, the rest being a graphical bug. Looking back on it, I should have tested a lot more factors before starting that thread. I may look into this a bit more in the near future. It's a bit exciting, considering this is an aspect of redstone theory that has never been fully documented, probably not even investigated much. It's not even possible on the PC version.
My relay stations (which will double as my destination selectors for my train stations) also both encode and decode the "codes" I am sending. I would love to compare designs, though it sounds like you are dealing with a much greater flow of "information" than I am. Mine can handle a two pulse signal and it is the number of 4 tick delays that tells it which "code" it is.
I'm guessing the initial pulse is readying the station to accept incoming data? And the delay before the next pulse determines the address? For example, (P = Pulse, .... = 4-tick delay, - = meaningless spacer for clarity) [P-P = 0], [P-....-P = 1], [P-....-....-P = 2], etc. This is what I'm assuming, which is why I called it unary in the previous post. It's a base-1 numerical system, think of it as counting with your fingers, or using tally marks. In electronics it's a bit different, but the same concept... sort of. Except a sequential counter would leave previous bits active, like how most count with their fingers. A unary counter only has one active output at any given time, each numeric value is its own digit, which is why this is inefficient, especially when it comes to moving information about. Representing 256 as unary, in electronics, would require 256 lines (in this scenario, 256 4-tick delays) in binary, this is only 8 lines. (a string of 8 4-tick pulses, using my system) See what I mean? Unary is great for addressing or operating control bits, but that's about it. Binary is the absolute best, most compact, and fastest system to use for data transmission.
You know, my quote key would get less of a workout if I actually knew what to call this stuff!
You did just fine. Data, information, and code are all interchangeable in computer science, though I rarely see anyone refer to data as code. There is two sides to software, there are instructions, then there's the numbers to be manipulated. These numbers are most commonly called information, values, data, or operands. Instructions are usually called.. well.. instructions, xD operations, opcode, (this refers to one line of machine code, using the full instruction-set) or lines. Any wire which can be considered software, instruction or data, can be referred to as a bit. Hopefully that cleared some of it up, a lot of the terminology is a bit more difficult to explain without typing a mega-post.
So here are some pics. By the way, Mods, if you want me to move these pics to a new post in the creations section, just let me know.
Here is the basic unit of what I'm going to call the decoder/encoder. This would represent one minecart station and could receive a signal (from a button in a station or from a relay) and then release that signal again when triggered.
The diamond block is the input. The orange blocks do all the decoding / encoding (based on delay). The iron blocks are the and gates that receive the two pulses and trigger if they are correctly delayed. The blue is the rs nor latch that makes that "channel" active or inactive by triggering the piston. The red block is the reset and the gold blocks are the input that can come from a button press at a station. The purple is the output. (and no, I don't usually color coordinate my builds - this is just so it's easier to explain!)
Here are three of these together:
you can see that the input line also goes to the reset so that the station always gets reset first when it receives a signal. You can also see there are two repeaters set to 4 ticks each going into the "decoder" section. I found that the shortest delay between pulses is 8 ticks. Anything less than that can't be handled by the system.
Here's one of those hooked up as a "relay station" on the minecart track. you can't see it, but the output wraps back around to the redstone alongside the track.
And here's a pic of one setup as a station and a relay. You can see the on/off ramp configuration of the station which I'm pretty proud of. You will bypass the station from either direction if the station is inactive and will enter the station from either direction if the station is active. The station also sends you left or right depending on the destination and sends the properly encoded signal. Wiring is an absolute mess, sorry about that.
I'm going to make at least two more of these around my small scale test track to see how it does before I go large scale which will require the relay stations. I also want to test sub lines with multiple stations on them. The on/off ramp will have to be able to be triggered by multiple coded signals rather than just one like the individual stations but I don't think that will be a problem.
Sorry for the bad image quality. I learned a few things about taking the pics from my phone that might help for next time.
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So I started some tests in creative and ran redstone with appropriately placed repeaters over a few hundred blocks (I believe it's about 250 but I'll have to check). I was sending a two pulse signal with a certain delay between pulses to activate the appropriate AND gates on the other end. The pulses work, the AND gates work, all the track switching is working, but often the signal gets "stuck" about 150 blocks away from me or so. It doesn't always happen, but the system has to work all the time to be of any use.
A few important factors: I tried this first with a "two-way" redstone line using some two-way repeater designs I found online. Worked fine except for the distance issue. Thought the two-way repeaters could be the issue so I changed it to just one way and it still had problems. I set up some checkpoints along the line using pistons and the ones within about 150 blocks worked fine but beyond that would have some pretty severe problems (block disappearing but still being present, redstone not appearing activated but was, and a few other weird things I can't remember).
Anyone else had issues with redstone signals passing over long distances? I know Nose_job.. had a post about clocks staying active when the player was far away, but not sure if this is related.
Now i'm no redstone expert by no means but this is just what I understood from the past lol.
One trick you might try is installing a dimensional anchor mod that allows you to have certain chunks always loaded so your redstone circuits will always be loaded in.
Hopefully that helps you out. good luck on your project!
Sir, this is the xbox forum.
Please be careful.
oops i just realized this.. my mistake
Having done some experimenting with mob farms I found the render distance to max out at around the same mark. So it looks like unless their is another player rendering that area for you, the redstone will never be consistent. I had to shrink down the area in the map I'm building a small amount to make sure that these areas would always be rendered in.
However I have heard rumours which I cannot confirm or deny that the chunk the main spawn for the world always stays loaded or rendered. I'm not sure if that can help you in any way or if it is true, but I wish you luck on your project
The goal of the project is for each station to have a button for every possible destination. When the button is pushed, every track in the system necessary to get you to that destination is appropriately switched and away you go. The rail system will be a main loop around the world with sub lines going off to various stations.
The two-pulse "code" is set with an immediate first pulse and a second pulse delayed by a certain number of repeaters set to 4 tick delay. Each station will be assigned a number that indicates the number of repeaters necessary for that code.
So far I have figured out how to "encode" and "decode" the signal and only operate the appropriate stations. I have also figured out an off/on ramp design for each station so that each station has an inactive state allow carts from either direction to pass by without entering and to enter from either direction if the station is active. I have also figured out how to send the cart the correct way on the loop from the station depending on which station you are going to (this has to be determined on a station-by-station basis). (I learned the two-pulse idea from watching Etho - he was trying to do this with a mob in a cart sent ahead of him with him following at a predetermined delay - which is genius...but I don't think he ever actually got it to work and I have my doubts that it will every work reliably.)
JSPRINGY, I did try a "two-way repeater" design that did not use actual repeaters, just torches. I could send the encoded signal through 3 or 4 of these with no trouble but over a long distance the signal became unstable. I still don't think this was a limit of the repeater design because using actual repeaters reproduced the same result. My "two-way repeaters" used 4 torches and had a 2 tick delay with passing a signal through and I believe a 4 tick delay before they were ready to handle another signal.
I believe I've solved the problem, though. I'm working on the assumption that at some distance away from you the redstone just isn't calculated accurately by the xbox. So, I've designed "relay stations" that will accept the coded signal, store the code, and then release it when you pass a detector rail. This way you are always within range of the signal and the signal sort of follows you around the system. I tested it on a straight track over several hundred blocks and it worked great. The station you are trying to go to cannot be too close to the relay station or the signal won't have time to get to the track to make the switch, but that can just be factored into the system design. I also figured out that the same device that works as a "relay station" will work as a "destination chooser" in each station. This means each station becomes a relay station. It will get activated if it receives it's own code or will store and send the code for any other station when you pass by.
Right now I'm working on a small scale loop with 3 stations to see how that goes. This won't test the distance issue, but I'll go to a much larger test once this gets working.
One thing to note: I believe this system would be completely worthless in a multiplayer world. Every input automatically clears previous inputs. This means only one rider can be in the system at a time. If you are riding in a cart and someone else chooses a destination, it is quite possible that you would be redirected to that new destination.
With a bit of work, the relay system might be tweaked to only activate the section the rider is in and allow the rest of the track to be used by others so that, but I'm not sure that will work and will be a bit more of a challenge to figure out. Would have to figure out what would happen if they crossed...
One last thing in case someone is wondering... For the most part I'm not looking up how others have done similar things. I learned the basics of redstone and redstone logic gates by reading online but I am trying to design the rest of the stuff on my own.
rushzer0 - just saw your post as I was typing this novel. Thanks for the input. I actually think the storing and sending aspect of my design might have a lot of other uses. Would be interesting to look into. The spawn chuck being constantly loaded is interesting and I'll keep it in mind.
I know what you mean but if you go into the application settings you can set it up so that no one can see your posted photos but you.
Edit: Nevermind: found this explanation of how to use imgur.com I'll check that out. Yep, that will work...
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Retired StaffIt's also possible that one of the more recent updates could have have accidentally became the cause. It would be a good idea to take note as to where a problem occurs, and watch that spot through further testing. If it commonly fails in the same area, it would seem you have a corrupted block. Pinpoint the exact item where the bug occurs, break it and the block it is attached to, save and exit, reload, replace, and save again.
Hopefully this solves your problem. I would hate for long distance redstonery to be hindered or made completely impossible. It would crush my dreams of building MCXBLA's first LAN. Also, I've designed a transceiver if you're interested. It's somewhat similar to what you're talking about, except it uses binary logic instead of unary, much faster this way. It's infinitely expandable, and encodes a binary input into a string of 4-tick pulses. There is, of course, an initial pulse, telling the opposite transceiver when to write the data to built-in memory cells. The high point of my design is that both reading and writing can be performed by the same device. I thought about using two-way repeaters, but quickly scrapped the idea since it's 50% as efficient, takes up more space, (by cubic volume, anyway) and looks much uglier than having separate read and write lines. Later this will be expanded upon, a hub will be implemented for addressing, so a single location can be designated, while the others will ignore the data. At this point, I think I could safely call it a LAN, albeit a simplified and basic definition.
My relay stations (which will double as my destination selectors for my train stations) also both encode and decode the "codes" I am sending. I would love to compare designs, though it sounds like you are dealing with a much greater flow of "information" than I am. Mine can handle a two pulse signal and it is the number of 4 tick delays that tells it which "code" it is.
You know, my quote key would get less of a workout if I actually knew what to call this stuff!
I'll be taking some pics tonight after my kids are in bed. We've got 3 with one more on the way in the spring... Soon I'll be testing the theory that you can comfort a sleepless newborn and play minecraft at the same time. So far I've got the two oldest addicted to this game as well. I bought it for my middle child as "his" birthday present. That has worked out well for me...
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Retired StaffHmm... well that's definitely strange.
I'm guessing the initial pulse is readying the station to accept incoming data? And the delay before the next pulse determines the address? For example, (P = Pulse, .... = 4-tick delay, - = meaningless spacer for clarity) [P-P = 0], [P-....-P = 1], [P-....-....-P = 2], etc. This is what I'm assuming, which is why I called it unary in the previous post. It's a base-1 numerical system, think of it as counting with your fingers, or using tally marks. In electronics it's a bit different, but the same concept... sort of. Except a sequential counter would leave previous bits active, like how most count with their fingers. A unary counter only has one active output at any given time, each numeric value is its own digit, which is why this is inefficient, especially when it comes to moving information about. Representing 256 as unary, in electronics, would require 256 lines (in this scenario, 256 4-tick delays) in binary, this is only 8 lines. (a string of 8 4-tick pulses, using my system) See what I mean? Unary is great for addressing or operating control bits, but that's about it. Binary is the absolute best, most compact, and fastest system to use for data transmission.
You did just fine.
Here is the basic unit of what I'm going to call the decoder/encoder. This would represent one minecart station and could receive a signal (from a button in a station or from a relay) and then release that signal again when triggered.
The diamond block is the input. The orange blocks do all the decoding / encoding (based on delay). The iron blocks are the and gates that receive the two pulses and trigger if they are correctly delayed. The blue is the rs nor latch that makes that "channel" active or inactive by triggering the piston. The red block is the reset and the gold blocks are the input that can come from a button press at a station. The purple is the output. (and no, I don't usually color coordinate my builds - this is just so it's easier to explain!)
Here are three of these together:
you can see that the input line also goes to the reset so that the station always gets reset first when it receives a signal. You can also see there are two repeaters set to 4 ticks each going into the "decoder" section. I found that the shortest delay between pulses is 8 ticks. Anything less than that can't be handled by the system.
Here's one of those hooked up as a "relay station" on the minecart track. you can't see it, but the output wraps back around to the redstone alongside the track.
And here's a pic of one setup as a station and a relay. You can see the on/off ramp configuration of the station which I'm pretty proud of. You will bypass the station from either direction if the station is inactive and will enter the station from either direction if the station is active. The station also sends you left or right depending on the destination and sends the properly encoded signal. Wiring is an absolute mess, sorry about that.
I'm going to make at least two more of these around my small scale test track to see how it does before I go large scale which will require the relay stations. I also want to test sub lines with multiple stations on them. The on/off ramp will have to be able to be triggered by multiple coded signals rather than just one like the individual stations but I don't think that will be a problem.
Sorry for the bad image quality. I learned a few things about taking the pics from my phone that might help for next time.