There are still options that can be put into place by 4J, such as parental controls for the signs that empower the parents without MS having to go the extra step and put in place an always active sign scanner. There are solutions for this, and if the community speaks up it may make a difference.
I checked the Xbox Live website to check out the ESRB rating and while you are correct that it is E10+ guess what it says about the online portion (see below). That means Xbox has no obligation to keep the online features at E10+ because the ESRB recognizes that "Online Experiences May Vary" which is another common term used in the rating industry.
"Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB"
You think posing the option to use parental controls can allow for a game to be rated E? That's cute. You see, that would mean that anyone who disables parental controls could play an E rated game complete with gore, profanity, etc. If they have consent, then it really doesn't matter what's in the game, but, by definition, it couldn't be rated E.
I'm pretty sure signs work offline, too. The censor is there to completely eradicate any profanity from the game, not only to eliminate the possibility of a friend acting inappropriately. The difference is not only can a friend do so, but the player can too. Microsoft has an obligation to keep all features, both online and offline, appropriate for the rating which, in this case, is E.
Anyway, I don't want to argue about Microsoft's obligations. I only wanted to point out that you need to bring the issue up to Microsoft, not 4J. 4J has little more voice in the matter than any one player.
From what I've seen, Microsoft doesn't censor anything without reason. Sure, it may not be offensive to us, but it must be to someone.
We have no idea what those words could possibly mean all of the languages the the Xbox 360 supports.
It could be something as obtuse as a cross-ANSI/ASCII coding issue. If the text on signs is stored as ASCII text, who knows what that combination could convert to when it is displayed in something other than Western European...
I agree that there should be censors, but like many have said before, the censor should be optional if that is possible (which I am pretty sure it is possible). The fact that the censor can freeze the game is a real downer. I have a tendency to label chests with signs, so I use signs whenever I build a new house.
Its weird, I have several signs with various curse words and none are censored. They are off line worlds though. I think censorship in any shape, anywhere, anytime is wrong. If you don't like it don't play it. Simple as that.
It's still Microsoft's/4J's game so they call the shots when it come to stuff like that.
Its weird, I have several signs with various curse words and none are censored. They are off line worlds though. I think censorship in any shape, anywhere, anytime is wrong. If you don't like it don't play it. Simple as that.
While I do understand your position, you need to think about the people who want to play a clean game. Shouid they be denied the ability to do so just because of a lack of censorship?
You think posing the option to use parental controls can allow for a game to be rated E? That's cute. You see, that would mean that anyone who disables parental controls could play an E rated game complete with gore, profanity, etc. If they have consent, then it really doesn't matter what's in the game, but, by definition, it couldn't be rated E.
I'm pretty sure signs work offline, too. The censor is there to completely eradicate any profanity from the game, not only to eliminate the possibility of a friend acting inappropriately. The difference is not only can a friend do so, but the player can too. Microsoft has an obligation to keep all features, both online and offline, appropriate for the rating which, in this case, is E.
Anyway, I don't want to argue about Microsoft's obligations. I only wanted to point out that you need to bring the issue up to Microsoft, not 4J. 4J has little more voice in the matter than any one player.
I think you missed my point, the idea is the ESRB rates the game, but does not have any control over the online content. If Xbox/4J uses the appropriate warning, then the core game outside the online elements must be appropriate for E10+ but the online component does not. This is straight from the ESRB website:
Do ESRB ratings address online-enabled elements like player chat, player-generated content or downloadable music?
ESRB ratings only address content created by the game's developer and do not consider content that is created or introduced by other players when playing the game online. However, these games do display notices that advise consumers to expect this type of content. Packaged or boxed games that can be played online with other players and facilitate exposure to user-generated content must display an Online Rating Notice that states: "Online Interactions Not Rated By The ESRB." This notice is intended to warn consumers about possible exposure to chat (text, audio, video) or other types of user-generated content (e.g., maps, skins) that have not been considered in the ESRB rating assignment. Packaged or boxed games that allow users to download songs not considered in the ESRB rating assignment will display the Music DLC Notice, which reads: "Music Downloads Not Rated By The ESRB." This content does not have to be submitted to ESRB for rating but the provider must display the Music DLC Notice and, if appropriate, an RIAA Parental Advisory logo prior to download or purchase.
Digitally delivered games, such as downloadable games and apps, may display a similar "Users Interact" notice regarding potential exposure to user-generated content, among other pertinent interactive elements. Consumers can find complete ESRB rating information for all rated games and apps, including these Interactive Elements notices, by searching our website.
The vast majority of signs in my world are blank, and used simply to maintain water flows for transporting mobs. So in actuality of the 400+ signs I've placed, maybe 30-40 have actual text.
@Mustache, this is curious. While I was convinced that Sedistix 400 signs was a strong fact against my argument now that we know most of his signs do not have text on them that opens back up the possibly of signs scanning being the issue.
If you REALLY wanted to put a swear word into a sign. . . personally not too sure why. . could you not split the word into two, and place on two signs? Kinda like mustache guys pics, but have the swear word split so that the first half is on the very right of the first sign, and the second half on the left of the second sign? Might work? Not tried it as I'm not on my xbox atm. Also, I wouldn't try it, cause I'm not sad. LOL
This is not the point of this post. I'm not fighting for the right (to party) to post vulgarity on signs. The spirit of this post is that the software used to scan signs is causing game performance issues that is crashing servers and preventing online play.
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I'm not trying to start an argument. I genuinely want to understand where you are coming from. Explain to me how 4J doesn't have a stronger voice in this when something Microsoft has implemented impacts the playability of an online mode in their game. Online play isn't a secret feature, it's advertised at point of sale. Not only does it look bad for 4J, it equally looks bad for Microsoft when something that people spend actual money on does not work as intended. Who better to represent us than 4J?
Referenced quote: "Anyway, I don't want to argue about Microsoft's obligations. I only wanted to point out that you need to bring the issue up to Microsoft, not 4J. 4J has little more voice in the matter than any one player."
the only thing that i ever had an issue with on the censorship was when i tried to make a sign with:
line 1-Monster
line 2-Farm
I switched it to mob, and it worked. have no clue as to why Monster is such a vulgar word.
every other sign i've ever done has been ok though. most of my chest rooms basically would have whatever item anyway named on it. no problems obviously with that.
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"All you outsiders, you haters, and liars. Your time is just counting, so come meet the mountain"
Yes, that is the whole point of freedom of speech. I have never in all my years seen someone drop dead from reading a bad word. Not trying to be mean, just realistic. I do not play Minecraft online with my worlds, but if I step into someone's world, I am in a way stepping into their home. What I like ends at the door.
What you are missing if the fact that, since M$ is providing the hosting service (or appropriately the channel for hosting), it's ultimately M$ world and, as M_G said above, it's M$ party whether you like it or not.
M$ owns xBox Live.
xBox Live is the channel through which all interaction occurs
M$ has the right to control any interactions which occurs in channels they own. Using your own metaphor, every time you go online to meet your friends, you are not going to their house, you are going to Bill G's house and partying in a corner of his basement.
I can corroborate Richcraft's assessment through independent verification; not only am I a member of the server in question, but I am also building an adventure map. I have about 150 signs throughout the world, with around 30 of those at the spawn point. Offline, the map runs smooth as a mill pond. Online, even solo, the map lags to Hell, but ONLY when I am near the signs. It crashed several times, most often while placing signs within the first few minutes of loading, so I went back offline, removed all but one of the signs at the spawn point, and it hasn't lagged there since. Meanwhile, a maze with extensive trivia signage still lags, but only when I am online.
To recap, the only lag I experience is online in high signage areas, and that lag disappeared when the signs were removed. The world runs with not one ounce of lag when offline, regardless of signage. So what that tells me is it is the combination of online play and signage that causes the lag/crashes. What is different about the signs between the two states? Censorship. Therefore, logically, it is the censorship of the signs during online play that is likely causing the lag on these particular servers.
To those who reply with the equivalent of "I don't have any problems, so you're wrong," congratulations. You are a valued member of the Minecraft community, and you have wonderful, valid opinions, and whatever else needs to be said to placate people who chime in just to read their own words. You likely don't have the traffic on your world that we do on these servers (we often have turned players away because the server was full at the moment). Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it is not happening, and it surely doesn't mean that our thought processes in trying to puzzle out the why behind it are lacking merit. Be happy that you're not affected, and go play your game.
And to those saying "complain to microsoft" or the equivalent, 4J has put forth a product that has a game breaking glitch when coupled with Microsoft's policy. 4J CERTAINLY has more of Microsoft's ear than you or I (and I am RELATED to a Microsoft employee), so why wouldn't be in their best interests to speak up for their customers? Imagine you wrote a series of novels about a serial killer that you knew would be multiple best sellers. Your publisher literally draws black lines through every mention of gore which make it to the final printed copy. You're certainly going to have a word with your publisher when everyone stops buying your books because they fail to deliver what's expected, or at the very least your work begins to be labeled as inferior.
So yeah, 4J SHOULD be very interested in what's happening here, and work with Microsoft to come up with a better solution, rather than saying "what can we do? Complain to Microsoft."
These are valid, documented issues, and Richcraft has suggested several solutions in an attempt to open up a discourse about what can be done. If reading all this hurts your head, go get a juice box and go back to playing your game, and leave the discussion to those willing to discuss rather than dismiss.
These are valid, documented issues, and Richcraft has suggested several solutions in an attempt to open up a discourse about what can be done. If reading all this hurts your head, go get a juice box and go back to playing your game, and leave the discussion to those willing to discuss rather than dismiss.
They already know about signs and are woking on it. In fact note that they identified it as related to signs before anyone else. I've posted in this thread because I think it probably helps 4J's developers look at the problem from a number of different angles.
As others have noted, however, whining about "removing censorship" is a completely unproductive course of action. Censorship is never going away because M$ lawyers are way too smart and way to paranoid to run the risk of doing so. All we can do is make suggestions to improve the censorship routine's efficiency.
They already know about signs and are woking on it. In fact note that they identified it as related to signs before anyone else. I've posted in this thread because I think it probably helps 4J's developers look at the problem from a number of different angles.
As others have noted, however, whining about "removing censorship" is a completely unproductive course of action. Censorship is never going away because M$ lawyers are way too smart and way to paranoid to run the risk of doing so. All we can do is make suggestions to improve the censorship routine's efficiency.
I'm not sure why people don't understand that the lag being caused by signs has something to do with 1.8.2. The game has been censoring signs since day 1 of it's release and not until this update has it caused these problems. So it's something wrong with the update, not the censoring itself.
I'm not sure why people don't understand that the lag being caused by signs has something to do with 1.8.2. The game has been censoring signs since day 1 of it's release and not until this update has it caused these problems. So it's something wrong with the update, not the censoring itself.
Which, they're working on fixing or have already fixed by now
I'm not sure why people don't understand that the lag being caused by signs has something to do with 1.8.2. The game has been censoring signs since day 1 of it's release and not until this update has it caused these problems. So it's something wrong with the update, not the censoring itself.
This is because we don't understand what the problem is. The only server crashing bug regarding signs that I am aware of 4J acknowledging is the bug when you edit a sign and place another sign immediately after, has been known to cause a crash. After I heard about it, I was able to quickly reproduce it as well, so it's not a tough bug to replicate. I haven't heard anyone make mention of the quantity of signs crippling a server or 4J come out and say "Hey guys, you probably don't want to go over X signs in your server while we work out a bug". It's the quantity of signs that is causing a problem.
I viewed the twitter post. It is in reference to pre 1.8.2. worlds crashing and that being somehow related to signs. It makes no mention of performance issues involving signs for the current version. This is the twitter post:
Question: @4JStudios and any word of the crashing prepatch worlds ?
Answer: @duivelbryan Yes, we've found an issue with signs in an online game causing this. It will also be fixed.
"We've found an issue with signs" doesn't tell me anything. Is it the crash associated with editing and quickly placing two signs? Is it that the signs themselves regardless of the quantity causing problems in general? Is it once you go above X signs, issues start happening. This end all be all twitter post does not explain what issue they are aware of, and frankly they were answering a question regarding pre-patch worlds, so I don't even know if they acknowledge a sign issue within brand new 1.8.2 worlds.
They already know about signs and are woking on it. In fact note that they identified it as related to signs before anyone else. I've posted in this thread because I think it probably helps 4J's developers look at the problem from a number of different angles.
As others have noted, however, whining about "removing censorship" is a completely unproductive course of action. Censorship is never going away because M$ lawyers are way too smart and way to paranoid to run the risk of doing so. All we can do is make suggestions to improve the censorship routine's efficiency.
Thanks for your post, that's the goal here. I mentioned above that Twitter post was an answer to a question about pre-patch worlds and crashes, not current version worlds that were created new after the patch. Maybe I'm digging into the weeds here, but I'm still not convinced or understand what issues related to signs 4J is actually aware of, specifically in current version worlds.
On your second comment, while some posts have been making free speech arguments and the like, that is not the spirit of this post. I highlight the censorship program not because of what it does (I could really care less if we have signs with swears on them or not) but because I believe the resources required to run the program (bandwidth etc.) is interfering with online playability and overall functionality. I'm all for the censorship program remaining in place but I'm advocating taking a look at the program and seeing if there is a way to make it more efficient and less resource intensive.
I'm not trying to start an argument. I genuinely want to understand where you are coming from. Explain to me how 4J doesn't have a stronger voice in this when something Microsoft has implemented impacts the playability of an online mode in their game. Online play isn't a secret feature, it's advertised at point of sale. Not only does it look bad for 4J, it equally looks bad for Microsoft when something that people spend actual money on does not work as intended. Who better to represent us than 4J?
Referenced quote: "Anyway, I don't want to argue about Microsoft's obligations. I only wanted to point out that you need to bring the issue up to Microsoft, not 4J. 4J has little more voice in the matter than any one player."
In the quote that you included in your reply I specifically said "little more voice," not "n0 say wutswever cuz dey suck LOLZ." 4J obviously holds more weight than any one player, but that doesn't change the fact that they're not particularly influential. With the tens of thousands of games out there, do you really think minecraft is the only one that Microsoft cares about? Microsoft isn't going to cater to the needs of one fairly successful developer; rather, it'll do whatever the hell it wants. I won't even begin explaining the legal issue yet again...
I'm pretty sure Microsoft intended for it to work this way.
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You think posing the option to use parental controls can allow for a game to be rated E? That's cute. You see, that would mean that anyone who disables parental controls could play an E rated game complete with gore, profanity, etc. If they have consent, then it really doesn't matter what's in the game, but, by definition, it couldn't be rated E.
I'm pretty sure signs work offline, too. The censor is there to completely eradicate any profanity from the game, not only to eliminate the possibility of a friend acting inappropriately. The difference is not only can a friend do so, but the player can too. Microsoft has an obligation to keep all features, both online and offline, appropriate for the rating which, in this case, is E.
Anyway, I don't want to argue about Microsoft's obligations. I only wanted to point out that you need to bring the issue up to Microsoft, not 4J. 4J has little more voice in the matter than any one player.
Curious isn't it? That the words "Trap Bravo" are worth censoring. It was definitely a wtf moment.
We have no idea what those words could possibly mean all of the languages the the Xbox 360 supports.
It could be something as obtuse as a cross-ANSI/ASCII coding issue. If the text on signs is stored as ASCII text, who knows what that combination could convert to when it is displayed in something other than Western European...
I think you missed my point, the idea is the ESRB rates the game, but does not have any control over the online content. If Xbox/4J uses the appropriate warning, then the core game outside the online elements must be appropriate for E10+ but the online component does not. This is straight from the ESRB website:
Do ESRB ratings address online-enabled elements like player chat, player-generated content or downloadable music?
ESRB ratings only address content created by the game's developer and do not consider content that is created or introduced by other players when playing the game online. However, these games do display notices that advise consumers to expect this type of content. Packaged or boxed games that can be played online with other players and facilitate exposure to user-generated content must display an Online Rating Notice that states: "Online Interactions Not Rated By The ESRB." This notice is intended to warn consumers about possible exposure to chat (text, audio, video) or other types of user-generated content (e.g., maps, skins) that have not been considered in the ESRB rating assignment. Packaged or boxed games that allow users to download songs not considered in the ESRB rating assignment will display the Music DLC Notice, which reads: "Music Downloads Not Rated By The ESRB." This content does not have to be submitted to ESRB for rating but the provider must display the Music DLC Notice and, if appropriate, an RIAA Parental Advisory logo prior to download or purchase.
Digitally delivered games, such as downloadable games and apps, may display a similar "Users Interact" notice regarding potential exposure to user-generated content, among other pertinent interactive elements. Consumers can find complete ESRB rating information for all rated games and apps, including these Interactive Elements notices, by searching our website.
@Mustache, this is curious. While I was convinced that Sedistix 400 signs was a strong fact against my argument now that we know most of his signs do not have text on them that opens back up the possibly of signs scanning being the issue.
This is not the point of this post. I'm not fighting for the right (to party) to post vulgarity on signs. The spirit of this post is that the software used to scan signs is causing game performance issues that is crashing servers and preventing online play.
I'm not trying to start an argument. I genuinely want to understand where you are coming from. Explain to me how 4J doesn't have a stronger voice in this when something Microsoft has implemented impacts the playability of an online mode in their game. Online play isn't a secret feature, it's advertised at point of sale. Not only does it look bad for 4J, it equally looks bad for Microsoft when something that people spend actual money on does not work as intended. Who better to represent us than 4J?
Referenced quote: "Anyway, I don't want to argue about Microsoft's obligations. I only wanted to point out that you need to bring the issue up to Microsoft, not 4J. 4J has little more voice in the matter than any one player."
line 1-Monster
line 2-Farm
I switched it to mob, and it worked. have no clue as to why Monster is such a vulgar word.
every other sign i've ever done has been ok though. most of my chest rooms basically would have whatever item anyway named on it. no problems obviously with that.
What you are missing if the fact that, since M$ is providing the hosting service (or appropriately the channel for hosting), it's ultimately M$ world and, as M_G said above, it's M$ party whether you like it or not.
M$ owns xBox Live.
xBox Live is the channel through which all interaction occurs
M$ has the right to control any interactions which occurs in channels they own. Using your own metaphor, every time you go online to meet your friends, you are not going to their house, you are going to Bill G's house and partying in a corner of his basement.
To recap, the only lag I experience is online in high signage areas, and that lag disappeared when the signs were removed. The world runs with not one ounce of lag when offline, regardless of signage. So what that tells me is it is the combination of online play and signage that causes the lag/crashes. What is different about the signs between the two states? Censorship. Therefore, logically, it is the censorship of the signs during online play that is likely causing the lag on these particular servers.
To those who reply with the equivalent of "I don't have any problems, so you're wrong," congratulations. You are a valued member of the Minecraft community, and you have wonderful, valid opinions, and whatever else needs to be said to placate people who chime in just to read their own words. You likely don't have the traffic on your world that we do on these servers (we often have turned players away because the server was full at the moment). Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it is not happening, and it surely doesn't mean that our thought processes in trying to puzzle out the why behind it are lacking merit. Be happy that you're not affected, and go play your game.
And to those saying "complain to microsoft" or the equivalent, 4J has put forth a product that has a game breaking glitch when coupled with Microsoft's policy. 4J CERTAINLY has more of Microsoft's ear than you or I (and I am RELATED to a Microsoft employee), so why wouldn't be in their best interests to speak up for their customers? Imagine you wrote a series of novels about a serial killer that you knew would be multiple best sellers. Your publisher literally draws black lines through every mention of gore which make it to the final printed copy. You're certainly going to have a word with your publisher when everyone stops buying your books because they fail to deliver what's expected, or at the very least your work begins to be labeled as inferior.
So yeah, 4J SHOULD be very interested in what's happening here, and work with Microsoft to come up with a better solution, rather than saying "what can we do? Complain to Microsoft."
These are valid, documented issues, and Richcraft has suggested several solutions in an attempt to open up a discourse about what can be done. If reading all this hurts your head, go get a juice box and go back to playing your game, and leave the discussion to those willing to discuss rather than dismiss.
Kenn (ARTISTIK), Quest & Lore Writer, Renatus RPG Server
Development Team, ARK_REALMS RPG Server
Please note 4J tweet back on Oct 22.
https://twitter.com/...448683731070976
They already know about signs and are woking on it. In fact note that they identified it as related to signs before anyone else. I've posted in this thread because I think it probably helps 4J's developers look at the problem from a number of different angles.
As others have noted, however, whining about "removing censorship" is a completely unproductive course of action. Censorship is never going away because M$ lawyers are way too smart and way to paranoid to run the risk of doing so. All we can do is make suggestions to improve the censorship routine's efficiency.
Which, they're working on fixing or have already fixed by now
This is because we don't understand what the problem is. The only server crashing bug regarding signs that I am aware of 4J acknowledging is the bug when you edit a sign and place another sign immediately after, has been known to cause a crash. After I heard about it, I was able to quickly reproduce it as well, so it's not a tough bug to replicate. I haven't heard anyone make mention of the quantity of signs crippling a server or 4J come out and say "Hey guys, you probably don't want to go over X signs in your server while we work out a bug". It's the quantity of signs that is causing a problem.
I viewed the twitter post. It is in reference to pre 1.8.2. worlds crashing and that being somehow related to signs. It makes no mention of performance issues involving signs for the current version. This is the twitter post:
Question:
@4JStudios and any word of the crashing prepatch worlds ?Answer:
@duivelbryan Yes, we've found an issue with signs in an online game causing this. It will also be fixed."We've found an issue with signs" doesn't tell me anything. Is it the crash associated with editing and quickly placing two signs? Is it that the signs themselves regardless of the quantity causing problems in general? Is it once you go above X signs, issues start happening. This end all be all twitter post does not explain what issue they are aware of, and frankly they were answering a question regarding pre-patch worlds, so I don't even know if they acknowledge a sign issue within brand new 1.8.2 worlds.
Thanks for your post, that's the goal here. I mentioned above that Twitter post was an answer to a question about pre-patch worlds and crashes, not current version worlds that were created new after the patch. Maybe I'm digging into the weeds here, but I'm still not convinced or understand what issues related to signs 4J is actually aware of, specifically in current version worlds.
On your second comment, while some posts have been making free speech arguments and the like, that is not the spirit of this post. I highlight the censorship program not because of what it does (I could really care less if we have signs with swears on them or not) but because I believe the resources required to run the program (bandwidth etc.) is interfering with online playability and overall functionality. I'm all for the censorship program remaining in place but I'm advocating taking a look at the program and seeing if there is a way to make it more efficient and less resource intensive.
In the quote that you included in your reply I specifically said "little more voice," not "n0 say wutswever cuz dey suck LOLZ." 4J obviously holds more weight than any one player, but that doesn't change the fact that they're not particularly influential. With the tens of thousands of games out there, do you really think minecraft is the only one that Microsoft cares about? Microsoft isn't going to cater to the needs of one fairly successful developer; rather, it'll do whatever the hell it wants. I won't even begin explaining the legal issue yet again...
I'm pretty sure Microsoft intended for it to work this way.