So it looks like clay can generate, the world isn't generated completely on first load, etc.
VINDICATION!
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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
So it looks like clay can generate, the world isn't generated completely on first load, etc.
This was already well known while they were fixing the glitch to begin with...Some people just didn't do enough research on the topic before they posted.
Nice to see some confirmation one way or the other. My testing didn't go as planned. I couldn't find where the update was stored and deleting and downloading the game again didn't give me the prepatch version.
This was already well known while they were fixing the glitch to begin with...Some people just didn't do enough research on the topic before they posted.
I'm not sure you understand what "well known" means if you've used it in that context.......
Up to and quite a few days after the launch, 4J themselves announced that if you want clay - you regenerate your world. There was no exception made for unexplored chunks. You can find these references all over 4J's twitter. It's well known that 4J was instructing people to start creating new worlds to find clay. They probably went with the assumption that everyone had explored the little 800x2 map already......
Many people have also been assuming that the world is generated 100% the first time it's played. It seems this isn't the case at all.
Let me start off saying im in no way shape or form a programmer. But I did have a thought after reading alot of Wiki's on how mobs spawn etc. and how you can manipulate where and how they spawn. Could this not be done on a much larger level? bare with me while I try and explain.
Alot of people have a concern with adding something to a game in progress. I agree with this concern and as someone put it, what if they drop a dungeon in a spot where I have already built a sublevel etc. Well why not have the game do a series of checks and balances before spawning that dungeon. For example adding a dungeon somewhere in the world where X amount by X amount of blocks have not been altered. And if this does not exist anywhere, then a dungeon could not be added with any updates. On a smaller scale, adding things like Clay. Only add them to areas where players have not altered the landscape in any way by a measure of 10-20 blocks in all directions. Again if this requirement cannot be met, then it cannot spawn in a "game in progress". With this concept it would be possible to add things to existing worlds without destroying or causing any undue hardship on the game in progress but also allow for existing worlds to continue to be played without the need to start a new world just to utilize an update.
As for the questions regarding why is everyone so worried about clay... There are several things you cannot build at all in your world without clay. Bricks, some switches etc. So it would be nice to have the ability to utilize all the tools available in your world as they were intended. Without clay, this cannot be done.
With regards to being able to add new terrain blocks to areas not yet explored, I believe that is already the way it works (and if it isnt there really is no reason why it couldn't - given this is how the pc game works).
That's not the way it works on PC.
Here's an example:
Let's say I go delete a chunk with MCEdit or similar. Using a tool like AMIDST, I could choose a location (according to seed) that a Mineshaft or Stronghold should be. When that chunk is regenerated, the Mineshaft/Stronghold destroys everything in it's path including other Strongholds/Mineshafts.
Since stone, cobblestone, dirt, etc are all naturally occurring... How would the game know if you placed it or not? Would you ask that players only create buildings out of brick, obsidian, planks and other naturally occurring blocks? Seeds are a random number generator seed (you can look it up) with two worlds generated from the same seed not being 100% identical. Comparing two worlds from the same seed would not really be helpful.
Let's say I go delete a chunk with MCEdit or similar. Using a tool like AMIDST, I could choose a location (according to seed) that a Mineshaft or Stronghold should be. When that chunk is regenerated, the Mineshaft/Stronghold destroys everything in it's path including other Strongholds/Mineshafts.
Since stone, cobblestone, dirt, etc are all naturally occurring... How would the game know if you placed it or not? Would you ask that players only create buildings out of brick, obsidian, planks and other naturally occurring blocks? Seeds are a random number generator seed (you can look it up) with two worlds generated from the same seed not being 100% identical. Comparing two worlds from the same seed would not really be helpful.
Sorry, guys, but it's simply not this easy. :\
Thx Supa. That does make alot of sense and something I didnt even think about. LOL See im not a programmer by far. I figured there was alot more to it then it sounded. Guess its time to start a new world
I don't know if it has been pointed out, but I've heard on here that the game treated the clay like an error. If the situation didn't meet a rare set of rules, then the clay would be generated as sand. When you explore the world farther, the chunks generate before you. Because the post-patch update fixes the clay generation rules, the clay would now generate as the rest of your world generates the first time you go somewhere. This isn't lakes becoming mountains, but clay now generating under less restrictive rules (coding).
The worlds couldn't have been modified to give them clay because the seed equals the world, but I do believe it is possible that as you explore new areas and as they generate on your screen, that the coding to generate what each block is is working at the same time and clay is now being less blocked by the coding.
Clay is working correctly now, You do find large areas of Gravel naturally.
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OK, I had read that that is what happened on the pc... that as new terrain was added to the generation algorithm you could get it on old maps by venturing into unexplored areas - and that it was one of the advantages of 'infinite' maps (although they aren't really infinite, just very big)
Isn't the reason the dungeon/mineshaft/whatever overwrites the terrain in the generated chunk more to do with the order things are layered into the chunk?
I think I may have misread your reply to the other fellow. I thought you were agreeing that it worked the way he described. You're right - new terrain is added as the chunks are generated, so you can find new features in unexplored areas.
I'm pretty sure mineshafts can extend outside of the chunk they're in, so layering doesn't really matter. They'll smash up already generated chunks. :\
You can experiment with seeds on your own in the PC version. You'll be surprised at some of the differences.
Additionally, whenever there are updates to the way the game generates terrain, you will sometimes see some very strange things happen (ex: generate superflat and go find shafts/Strongholds, then go find them in the map normally). When we move to 1.8 (where generated structures begin) on the Xbox it will certainly be interesting.
Ah, yeah, I saw some examples of that on youtube... you can get sudden changes from one biome to another (sometimes with huge changes in height).
I think the interesting part of the structures stuff will be how they will fit if the xbox map isnt increased... I get the impression that some of the underground ones would occupy most of the map.
Something that I've always been a little weird on...... So let's say you use MCEdit to delete a chunk. When that chunk is regenerated later, you end up with some very strange things: like a 40 block fall from Desert into a Swamp. Regenerate the same seed and the Swamp biome will exist, but the terrain won't be "broken." Someday, I'll go find out why that happens.....
Every time I have a friend start playing Minecraft they, of course, want to go see The End ASAP on a brand new map. Speaking as someone that has had to go delete chunks *a lot* because of Mineshafts overwriting Stronghold Portals, Ravines cutting through structures (and vice versa) and other bizarre things...... I can't wait to see how they do it for the 360. Without these tools, I have no idea how they're going to avoid having to tell people to restart their map because only half of the End Portal frame appeared. :\
..... and don't even get me started about the time we ran the server off of SuperTalent RAM.....
With a pretty tiny map (not that I care that it's tiny, but in relation to the structures) I wonder how they're going to avoid a mineshaft floating through their ravine that cut out the End Portal on the way into the ocean......
I really enjoy the Adventure update. My first question when I realized The Nether terminated in walls of bedrock was how the crap are they going to make Nether Fortresses work? It's not a matter of finding only one on the PC version - sometimes fortresses have no blaze spawners or Netherwart so you have to go trucking to the next one hoping you can find them there. Maybe for people that want to complete The End sequence without the risk they could add some pre-tested seeds that guarantee you can find all the things you need to finish it. Maybe you can select them right from the World Options screen without having to type them in.
ok, so I kind of assumed (based on something I saw about the way ore is generated) that things were added one after the other, in which case... shouldn't it be possible to make sure (for example) the strongholds were added last?
You're asking me? I say it sounds good - but I have no idea why it's like this.
I don't think Jeb thought, "You know what would be awesome? Structures randomly breaking other structures. Especially the End Portal frame!"
With regards to the weirdness with the biomes, I thought that occurred when one chunk had already been created using one algorithm, then the new 'unexplored' chunk was created with a new one...
Nope - if you have to remove a chunk with MCEdit or another tool on the PC version you'll end up with some jacked up terrain. If seeds truly did produce identical worlds, then why would the same world produce different terrain for the same chunk? The biomes are the same, but the terrain itself is all sorts of busted up. If you delete several adjacent chunks, the terrain is smoother on the borders of the new chunks, but the old chunks have cliffs and weirdness. I suppose we could guess that initial terrain generation does something different than procedural generation, but I don't understand why it would be like that.
Anyway, point being, all of those situations are pretty solvable on PC. No idea how it's going to work on 360.
Well, I checked with one of the tool authors and posted in the PC forums about this.
According to the tool author, the seed will generate the world (and every chunk) 100% identical every time..... but that's absolutely not what I'm experiencing? Odd. Also, if you do the superflat trick (generate a superflat world with the same seed) the generated structures don't seem to be in the same places or look the same. I guess it's something we'd really have to dig into to find out how it works.
The tool author did agree with you about the layering of structures - it seems mineshafts are after Strongholds and always overwrite them if nearby. That's another example of where I get confused - so my End Portal gets overwritten by a mineshaft. I delete the Portal junk and adjacent chunks. When I come back, the portal works.
So if the seed generates 100% every time, then why did it work the second time and not the first...... ??
https://twitter.com/4JStudios/status/214807280137412610
So it looks like clay can generate, the world isn't generated completely on first load, etc.
VINDICATION!
Indeed!
.... but now I have that stupid Dashboard Confessional song stuck in my head. :'(
This was already well known while they were fixing the glitch to begin with...Some people just didn't do enough research on the topic before they posted.
Indeed.
Darthsmurfx, there's bubbles above my row of hearts, because I'm all wet.
I'm not sure you understand what "well known" means if you've used it in that context.......
Up to and quite a few days after the launch, 4J themselves announced that if you want clay - you regenerate your world. There was no exception made for unexplored chunks. You can find these references all over 4J's twitter. It's well known that 4J was instructing people to start creating new worlds to find clay. They probably went with the assumption that everyone had explored the little 800x2 map already......
Many people have also been assuming that the world is generated 100% the first time it's played. It seems this isn't the case at all.
Alot of people have a concern with adding something to a game in progress. I agree with this concern and as someone put it, what if they drop a dungeon in a spot where I have already built a sublevel etc. Well why not have the game do a series of checks and balances before spawning that dungeon. For example adding a dungeon somewhere in the world where X amount by X amount of blocks have not been altered. And if this does not exist anywhere, then a dungeon could not be added with any updates. On a smaller scale, adding things like Clay. Only add them to areas where players have not altered the landscape in any way by a measure of 10-20 blocks in all directions. Again if this requirement cannot be met, then it cannot spawn in a "game in progress". With this concept it would be possible to add things to existing worlds without destroying or causing any undue hardship on the game in progress but also allow for existing worlds to continue to be played without the need to start a new world just to utilize an update.
As for the questions regarding why is everyone so worried about clay... There are several things you cannot build at all in your world without clay. Bricks, some switches etc. So it would be nice to have the ability to utilize all the tools available in your world as they were intended. Without clay, this cannot be done.
That's not the way it works on PC.
Here's an example:
Let's say I go delete a chunk with MCEdit or similar. Using a tool like AMIDST, I could choose a location (according to seed) that a Mineshaft or Stronghold should be. When that chunk is regenerated, the Mineshaft/Stronghold destroys everything in it's path including other Strongholds/Mineshafts.
Since stone, cobblestone, dirt, etc are all naturally occurring... How would the game know if you placed it or not? Would you ask that players only create buildings out of brick, obsidian, planks and other naturally occurring blocks? Seeds are a random number generator seed (you can look it up) with two worlds generated from the same seed not being 100% identical. Comparing two worlds from the same seed would not really be helpful.
Sorry, guys, but it's simply not this easy. :\
Minecraft for PC created the world on the fly are you go exploring. I think the default is a 10 chunk radius (160 blocks) from where you are walking.
Thx Supa. That does make alot of sense and something I didnt even think about. LOL See im not a programmer by far. I figured there was alot more to it then it sounded. Guess its time to start a new world
The worlds couldn't have been modified to give them clay because the seed equals the world, but I do believe it is possible that as you explore new areas and as they generate on your screen, that the coding to generate what each block is is working at the same time and clay is now being less blocked by the coding.
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I think I may have misread your reply to the other fellow. I thought you were agreeing that it worked the way he described. You're right - new terrain is added as the chunks are generated, so you can find new features in unexplored areas.
I'm pretty sure mineshafts can extend outside of the chunk they're in, so layering doesn't really matter. They'll smash up already generated chunks. :\
You can experiment with seeds on your own in the PC version. You'll be surprised at some of the differences.
Additionally, whenever there are updates to the way the game generates terrain, you will sometimes see some very strange things happen (ex: generate superflat and go find shafts/Strongholds, then go find them in the map normally). When we move to 1.8 (where generated structures begin) on the Xbox it will certainly be interesting.
Something that I've always been a little weird on...... So let's say you use MCEdit to delete a chunk. When that chunk is regenerated later, you end up with some very strange things: like a 40 block fall from Desert into a Swamp. Regenerate the same seed and the Swamp biome will exist, but the terrain won't be "broken." Someday, I'll go find out why that happens.....
Every time I have a friend start playing Minecraft they, of course, want to go see The End ASAP on a brand new map. Speaking as someone that has had to go delete chunks *a lot* because of Mineshafts overwriting Stronghold Portals, Ravines cutting through structures (and vice versa) and other bizarre things...... I can't wait to see how they do it for the 360. Without these tools, I have no idea how they're going to avoid having to tell people to restart their map because only half of the End Portal frame appeared. :\
..... and don't even get me started about the time we ran the server off of SuperTalent RAM.....
With a pretty tiny map (not that I care that it's tiny, but in relation to the structures) I wonder how they're going to avoid a mineshaft floating through their ravine that cut out the End Portal on the way into the ocean......
I really enjoy the Adventure update. My first question when I realized The Nether terminated in walls of bedrock was how the crap are they going to make Nether Fortresses work? It's not a matter of finding only one on the PC version - sometimes fortresses have no blaze spawners or Netherwart so you have to go trucking to the next one hoping you can find them there. Maybe for people that want to complete The End sequence without the risk they could add some pre-tested seeds that guarantee you can find all the things you need to finish it. Maybe you can select them right from the World Options screen without having to type them in.
They didn't make them a luxury item - it was a glitch. Bricks are ugly and pointless, anyway.
You're asking me? I say it sounds good - but I have no idea why it's like this.
I don't think Jeb thought, "You know what would be awesome? Structures randomly breaking other structures. Especially the End Portal frame!"
Nope - if you have to remove a chunk with MCEdit or another tool on the PC version you'll end up with some jacked up terrain. If seeds truly did produce identical worlds, then why would the same world produce different terrain for the same chunk? The biomes are the same, but the terrain itself is all sorts of busted up. If you delete several adjacent chunks, the terrain is smoother on the borders of the new chunks, but the old chunks have cliffs and weirdness. I suppose we could guess that initial terrain generation does something different than procedural generation, but I don't understand why it would be like that.
Anyway, point being, all of those situations are pretty solvable on PC. No idea how it's going to work on 360.
According to the tool author, the seed will generate the world (and every chunk) 100% identical every time..... but that's absolutely not what I'm experiencing? Odd. Also, if you do the superflat trick (generate a superflat world with the same seed) the generated structures don't seem to be in the same places or look the same. I guess it's something we'd really have to dig into to find out how it works.
The tool author did agree with you about the layering of structures - it seems mineshafts are after Strongholds and always overwrite them if nearby. That's another example of where I get confused - so my End Portal gets overwritten by a mineshaft. I delete the Portal junk and adjacent chunks. When I come back, the portal works.
So if the seed generates 100% every time, then why did it work the second time and not the first...... ??