One thing that has delighted me in the advent of the internet age, insofar as gaming, is that you can deal with games that are constantly in progress. Like the MMORPGs, the games are routinely updated with fresh features, fixing bugs, and adding new dimensions and exciting experiences.
Minecraft seems to have flourished in this aspect, a game that has been constantly improved and built on, expanding the possibilities and activities. Mind you, that was on a computer platform.
For an Xbox game, we are dealing with a few issues. First of all, we have hardware limitations, so at best we won't have as rich as an experience as the 'puter folks. That's fine. I'm willing to make some sacrifices to play on the console. The game on the console now is damn primitive compared to the latest version, but I still think this game is dynamite and a pleasure to play. Mind you, I never played the computer version.
The second issue, the concerns me much more, is orphaning.
Again, the world of constant ongoing development is one of an unspoken promise that things are always going to be worked on. That just may not happen. The Xbox 360 version was a smash hit on buys, but that's the first blush. I'll be interested to see what is going to happen over the next few months.
There were two titles that burned me, and many other gamers. Daggerdale and Xbox Live Game Room.
Daggerdale was a subpar Dungeons and Dragons franchise (D&D computer/console games seem to be 70% crap [Pool of Radience Remake], 20% ok [Icewind Dale] and 10% absolutely brilliant [Baldur's Gate Series]). It had some inexcusable bugs... like items disappearing and LEVELS disappearing from your character. Atari promised a patch that would fix these crippling issues. Promised. Promised. And as months went by we got more and more stories of how they are ALMOST there. But they lied. They never released jack to fix it. They just let it die. By their logic, they HAD our money, they weren't gonna spend any more time on it. We naturally were fit to be tied, but there wasn't a whole lot we could do.
As crappy as that was, at least one could argue that the game was, essentially, done.... as buggy and poorly tested as it was. The real inexcusable part was Xbox Live Game Room. For the uninitiated, you could play some of your retro arcade favorites in your self-designed arcade. You could share with your friends and actually play on other machines that you didn't own for Xbox points. Yes, MAME is more economical, but to older gamers like me, it was a neat concept. But the thing was, this was FIRMLY couched as a work in progress. More games were coming. More items. More bling. More surprises, added monthly and sometimes weekly. Things went splendidly for about two months.
Then, boom. Nothing. No more updates. No more news. No more patches. And absolutely NO communication from Microsoft for future timelines. Word got through the grapevine that Macrohard and the licensed developer had a falling out and they 86'ed them.
Fine, that kind of thing happens, but many of us felt Micro$oft had an obligation to make good on their promise that this was going to be an ongoing thing. It's not like we spent a mere 1600 points for the download... we sank PLENTY more points in buying things for our arcades and games.
But no, apparently, they shoved their hands in their pockets, spun around on their heel, and strolled off in the other direction, whistling nonchalantly. Too bad.
Long, long, long story short.... I'm worried this is going to happen with Minecraft. Things are all diamonds and redstone now, but I doubt we're gonna see full vigor of development for free updates. I for one would be delighted to pay for updates for this fine game.
But I'm also building this land in my Minecraft game with the hope that I can play through it for years, and experience many updates and new mechanics to come. If the Minecraft port turns out to be just a novel footnote in XBLA, that dream will be shattered. And it'll just be collecting dust in the futile hope for an update along with Daggerdale and Game Room.
One must also keep in mind that Notch and Microsoft have both signed an agreement regarding the porting of Minecraft to Xbox. Granted we do not know the particulars of exclusivity agreement, but continued support of the game is going to come down to Mojang, and 4J...... and whether or not we will be able to import the game to the next iteration of the Xbox console(common sense would say yes, but we all know how well Microsoft supported backwards compatibility with the original Xbox). Microsoft's hand in the matter is the approval, and eventual release of content that Mojang releases, by way of 4J Studios. I will concede that is where problems could arise, given that it was Microsoft's decision to delay the release of Minecraft by approximately two month, and the purported decision by Microsoft, and Mojang, to delay release of the update patch(possible a good idea at this time given the prevalence of game breaking bugs. Who knows what problems would arise as a result of release the patch prior to fixing the bugs). But one must keep in mind that Notch will have a hand in this, as he and Mojang are still responsible for development of the PC version, and all content, and updates have to be released to 4J from Mojang, so they are not totally hands free where the Xbox 360 is concerned. Given the explosive popularity, and the fact that 4J has become quite involved with the Minecraft community(which is actually a great comfort), I do foresee support lasting for quite some time, with the only real current concern being the eventual release of a new Xbox system within the next 3 years.
Game Room... that's still a sore spot for me. So much potential, so much fail.
I loved Game Room... wish it were still going.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I agree with you but i don't think it will be a big deal if 4j stops updating minecraft in a couple years.
As long as they update it with all the core content and remove most of the bugs, I would consider any update after that a bonus because minecraft seems finished and complete at around 1.2.5 on PC.
If 4j can get the xbox version up to 1.2.5 I wouldn't consider it to be orphaned
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I used to be an arrow like you, but then i took a knee to the head.
Game Room... that's still a sore spot for me. So much potential, so much fail.
I loved Game Room... wish it were still going.
Indeed. Porting games that were ALREADY COMPLETE is a huge challenge? MAME has been doing it near-flawlessly for years and doing it for free. ONE programmer could have kept that going.
I agree with you but i don't think it will be a big deal if 4j stops updating minecraft in a couple years.
As long as they update it with all the core content and remove most of the bugs, I would consider any update after that a bonus because minecraft seems finished and complete at around 1.2.5 on PC.
If 4j can get the xbox version up to 1.2.5 I wouldn't consider it to be orphaned
Oh, a few years would be more than I could ask. I just don't want it to die on the vine after update 1 or 2.
I agree, but we really don't know what will happen at this stage. Notch's approach is brilliant, and he has genuine interest in the game and making the experience great. He cares about it, and has pride in his project. Now, the xbox version is not in his hands, or even in the hands of an individual that he has vetted or approved ethically. Rather, it is now in the hands of a company, and we don't have a reason to believe them - yet. So we'll see, they could surprise us and stick to their word.
Hasnt notch stopped workin on minecraft altogether? Its all Jeb now so hopefully he has a great vision of our future! lol
common sense would say yes, but we all know how well Microsoft supported backwards compatibility with the original Xbox
Ain't THAT the truth. They swore they were going to have most of the library backwards compatible (something Sony and Nintendo never seemed to have much trouble with), and then they just inexplicably stopped nine months in. "Eh, that's enough."
Thank goodness my beloved "The Warriors" got ported to the PSP. I wanted so badly to play that again on the 360.
I swear, Microsoft's Xbox Developers remind me of a staff of cordon bleu chefs with ADD -- they'll start a scrumptious meal of great promise, but at around the appetizer course, they'll figure that's enough and just leave. And you're sitting at the table with your napkin around your neck, knife and fork in hand, wondering why the food has stopped coming.... then you eventually have to get up and leave when you get tired of waiting.
Hasnt notch stopped workin on minecraft altogether? Its all Jeb now so hopefully he has a great vision of our future! lol
I dont wanna sound like the Eternal Pessimist here, but Ultima Online went down the toilet when Richard Garriot left.
Why? Because there was love and craft with Garriot -- this was his baby. To EA, his successors, this was a ***** to work to death and exploit for the most financial gain as possible while putting in as little development and work as possible.
Ain't THAT the truth. They swore they were going to have most of the library backwards compatible (something Sony and Nintendo never seemed to have much trouble with), and then they just inexplicably stopped nine months in. "Eh, that's enough."
Thank goodness my beloved "The Warriors" got ported to the PSP. I wanted so badly to play that again on the 360.
I swear, Microsoft's Xbox Developers remind me of a staff of cordon bleu chefs with ADD -- they'll start a scrumptious meal of great promise, but at around the appetizer course, they'll figure that's enough and just leave. And you're sitting at the table with your napkin around your neck, knife and fork in hand, wondering why the food has stopped coming.... then you eventually have to get up and leave when you get tired of waiting.
I think a big part of the problem was Microsoft's approach to backwards compatibility, developing an Xbox emulation profile for each individual title. A better approach would have been to develop a single emulation profile for the original Xbox system to run all titles on, somewhat like what Nintendo did for Gamecube compatibility for the Wii. However in this case money talks, and with Minecraft making $20 million plus in its first week(and us not knowing what percentage of the profits Microsoft will get), I would expect Microsoft will be working to continue support for the title for the foreseeable future.
Like I said, my real question is how are they going to handle the matter once they release their new Xbox system. Obviously its going to have far greater hardware capabilities than the 360, and allow for an experience more analogous to the PC, but will Microsoft alienate those of us who purchased the title now, by dropping all support for it in favor of sole development for the new console. That is my primary concern, as I am not an early adopter for new tech, I prefer to wait till the major flaws are discovered and ironed out before I purchase, and with history showing that Microsoft has a propensity for half-assing console development in favor of an early release date for profit purposes, I wouldn't be surprised if the next system had its own version of the RRoD issues that were prevalent in early 360 models(of course I will admit it is somewhat unreasonable to expect all hardware flaws to be discovered prior to release, since the test base is quite limited, and some flaws are near impossible to discover with such a small sampling size, but there were actions they could have taken to prevent some of the issues that resulted in the RRoD).
The problem with Xbox and Xbox Live is there is always the next best thing. No game seems to last very long on the Xbox because the users are caught in a tide swishing them to the next released game. There are always people on the PC willing to play games that are 10 or 20 years old but you can't find a single person on Xbox Live who wants to play a game which was released last year.
The problem with Xbox and Xbox Live is there is always the next best thing. No game seems to last very long on the Xbox because the users are caught in a tide swishing them to the next released game.
I feel that's just gamers in general. They're a fickle lot.
I'd love to see a Quest Building Module. Build your world, script a quest, and then publish it online for folks to play through. We could even have prizes for the best stories....
Well I bought Minecraft for PC a long time ago, when you could get it for 5 or 10 bucks. I have played it ever since then. I bought Minecraft 360 for several reasons. The main reason is that I have a friend and a little boy. The friend has a nice computer but only uses it for audio recording purposes. So he is against installing games and mods on his computer. He also thought Minecraft was a complete joke, until he tried the Minecraft 360 demo. So now I can play Minecraft with my best friend and my little boy without any pc hassles. I admit the lack of mods, textures, and skins really gets to me, but it allows me to play with people who wouldn't be playing Minecraft other wise. Back when Minecraft first came out I bought in to Notch's ideals and believed that he would not orphan the PC or the Xbox version. I hope he doesn't prove me wrong.Of course Money does strange things to people. One thing I will never write off is the Minecraft community. I am sure they will keep the game going in some way.
That's how it is with every game. Once sales start to drop the developers stop caring. Their only mindset is "Why would I waste my time and effort to make updates, and not get paid to do it?"
Good points OP, and a nice reminder of why I stopped paying for Live years ago. My biggest wonder is why people still pay for that ****. After countless underhand moves and bad decisions from MS people still shell out money to be treated like dirt by them. They shut down anything that isn't an instant and huge success, **** off almost every third party willing to develop games for them, charge for content that should be and was always intended to be free, operate the most closed and restricted network around, hand out pointless features that no-one asked for and try and make it seem like it was in demand and insist on ridiculous terms for anyone who wants to release anything on Live. They are a bunch of paranoid megalomaniacs who make their money leeching from the casuals and people too young to know better. And they charge a subscription for the privelage of being conned. How many times do people have to be burned by MS before they stop throwing money at them.
I'm not going to go on about how PSN offers an equivalent service for no money (even though it does) and how Steam is far, far better and also free (even though it is), because those enthralled by MS's ******** won't listen anyway.
A little off topic there perhaps, so I'll try and get back on track. I expect we'll see regular updates for MCX360 right up to the point where sales start to drop off, i.e. once the majority of people who want it have already bought it, and then they will mostly abandon it. The only thing that might hold MS's interest in the game beyond that point would be exclusive dlc that they can charge for. And that's about the only extra content people can hope for beyond the few skin packs and texture packs which are supposed to be in the works; MS's policies won't ever allow for mod support or any true user-gereated content.
So there you have it; they way to keep MCX360 alive is to keep buying it. Once it's no longer as profitable as it is now it's pretty much dead.
I do want to point out one major difference between PSN and Xbox Live(This coming from someone who uses both, by the way) Xbox Live does not have a propensity for server issues that PSN has had a tendancy to have. You don't see a lot of down time with Xbox Live(at least none that I have noticed) this not to say that it is entirely problem free, but its problems tend to be component specific, rather that network service wide. Xbox Live also has not had a massive security breach that shut down the entire service for three weeks. Steam, I cannot comment much too, as most of the titles on it I cannot play due to not having a system with sufficient capacity, however comparing Steam to Xbox live, or PSN for that matter, is not really an apples to apples comparision, as all Steam is, is a digital download store, with a social networking component. It provides no additional services, as PSN and Xbox Live does. However, one must keep in mind, Sony is the same way with regards to its DLC as well, so it does not gain a point in its favor in that respect. You must also keep in mind that the developer is the one who sets the price for DLC, not Sony, or Microsoft. At best they would only get a small percentage of the purchase price from the developer for releasing the DLC on their service. So if you are going to place blame at anyone's feet if this title were to be orphaned(not likely given the aforementioned agreement between Microsoft and Mojang) it would be at the feet of the developer for dropping support for the title. They are the ones who are responsible for its development, along with subsequent updates, and they are the ones responsible for releasing the updates to the service provider, in this case Microsoft. Since all profits first go to the developer, in this case Mojang, with a percentage being given to the service provider as a fee for carrying the content(Microsoft), Microsoft has limited liability should a title not perform well upon its release to Live, as they still would charge the developer for releasing the title to their service, outside of specific contractual agreements that maybe put in place, such as the one surrounding Minecraft. The same holds true for Sony and PSN. It is the nature of the business.
Game room in part was a falling out in it's own name.
It wasn't the overwhelming succes that Microsoft thought it was going to be. They poured more into it than was worth the return (not as in a loss... but the profit margin wasn't large enough to sustain much of anything)
One thing I do like, and am optimistic about with MCX360 is the fact that Mojang doesn't seem very deeply invested in it's development (which... may be a good thing, unless/until 4J catches up to the PC/Mac stable release level because it's basically just porting updates in waves... no actual development. Not saying that 4J couldn't take that over... however it just wouldn't "be" Minecraft if they did). They're still focusing on the "original" version while 4J has taken the reins for the mobile (iOS/Android/[Windows?]) and 360 version.
They've done well with the Pocket Edition thus far.
Only time will tell.
Would be great, but will never happen. MS's policy is that they must approve all content uploaded to Live, and since they couldn't go through every piece of content that could potentially be generated by users to check that it meets their exacting standards, they just don't allow user-generated content to be uploaded to Live. They also don't allow anything on Live that they don't have complete control of; which is why there will not be any modding capabilities. It's also why there was never any link between Steam and Live like there is between Steam and PSN for Portal 2, and why the extra content packs for UT3 never made it 360.
Live is a closed Network. This was the primary reason why Final Fantasy XIV, as atrocious as it was, only made it to PSN and PC. Microsoft was unwilling to open their network to outside access as they did with with Final Fantasy XI. Seems they are reversing that call with Minecraft as well.
@Fox, 4J was only brought in for the porting to the 360, Mojang is still wholly responsible for development of Minecraft PE. As for development role, as I have stated previously, they are responsible for development of the original version, and since the 360 version is going to mirror the pc version(for the most part), for cross platform play purposes, they are going to have a proxy role in the development of the 360 version.
Live is a closed Network. This was the primary reason why Final Fantasy XIV, as atrocious as it was, only made it to PSN and PC. Microsoft was unwilling to open their network to outside access as they did with with Final Fantasy XI. Seems they are reversing that call with Minecraft as well.
@Fox, 4J was only brought in for the porting to the 360, Mojang is still wholly responsible for development of Minecraft PE. As for development role, as I have stated previously, they are responsible for development of the original version, and since the 360 version is going to mirror the pc version(for the most part), for cross platform play purposes, they are going to have a proxy role in the development of the 360 version.
I thought 4J had done the porting to the PE, too. Never played it (tried the demo... didn't like the controls, nor did I need to have such a scaled down version of creative mode everywhere I went.)
What I meant by "they aren't deeply involved" is not that they don't have a hand in it at all, but i'm guessing any and all final design choices are up to Jeb and his team, but 4J is playing catch-up, meaning it's basically going to be porting updates (1.7, 1.8, 1.9 ETC) every few months or so. If 4J were to ever catch up to Mojang, though, would that lead to to slightly varying experiences if 4J were to take over actual development for the 360 edition? That could be both good and bad, depending on how you look at it.
We haven't seen solid confirmation of cross-platform connectivity (I.E. 360 players simultaneously playing with PC/Mac players), and as stated LIVE has traditionally been a closed service. It hasn't been discounted (that I know of) but the way I see it, it's unlikely at best. I'm playing the "if" game here, but I think i might like to see what 4J could do if they were to take full development of the 360 version.
You could not be more wrong on many of your points. Steam more than just a digital distribution service. Steam runs it's own servers for many games, they have their own anti-cheat system and Steam will automatically search for driver updates and install them at the press of a button. Steam does everything that both XBL and PSN does, and so much more.
It is, ultimately, up to the XBL whether or not to charge for content, and how much. There have been several cases already where MS have charged more, or just charged at all, for content. The most famous one was with Gears of War where Epic were adamant the the dlc should be free, but MS went ahead and charged 800 points for it anyway.
While it is up to developers to get their updates to MS, it is MS who have to verify and approve those updates before putting them on Live. This is of course the case for all platforms, but MS's terms are so notoriously harsh and restrictive that it has caused huge delays in updates being released, and in some cases has resulted in the updates not being released at all. What's worse is that MS's conditions have resulted in updates being delayed for other platforms as part of their terms is that if they don't get first dibs on everything, or at least get it at the same time, then they don't want it at all.
Sony and valve do of course have their own set of terms for the release of software on their systems, but their networks are much more open. They both leave a lot of discretion to the developers about when and what content they add to their games, and a lot of the responsibility for maintaining the games and multiplayer servers falls on the developer.
My point is that the other platforms are largely the same in the basics of what they do, but they are far more open about how they do it and what content they are willing to support on their platforms, both developer and user generated. And at least Sony and Valve don't charge you for the privelage of being told exactly what you can have and how you can play it.
So you count my statement by bringing up a topic involving a game where Microsoft had a greater stake than just releasing the content on their marketplace? You are attempting to validate your argument by bringing up something that would fall under prior contractual agreements. Gears of Wars was a Microsoft exclusive game. This means that Microsoft made an exclusivity agreement with Epic Games, just as they have with Mojang, for exclusive release of the game on the Xbox 360, and at least for Gears 1, Windows(under the moniker "Games for Windows Live"). As result, Microsoft had a stake outside of just Live Marketplace Content, regarding the profitability of the game, and subsequent content. And for the record, I will lend greater credence to the... severity of the matter to what Mark Rein had stated on the Epic Forums, over your own post. IF you would like to point out a circumstance where this had occurred, where Microsoft did not have an active role in development, or marketing of the title, I would be glad to hear you out on the matter Now, yes Minecraft is in a similar position, except the exclusivity only pertains to video game console development itself. Yes, Microsoft has control over the release of the content itself on Xbox live, however due to the presence of the exclusivity agreement, one can make no inference as to what kind of content will, or won't be released. Again in this case Microsoft does have a stake in matter due to exclusivity agreement, and Microsoft is the one who chose the porting company, 4J. However, unlike Gears of War, Minecraft is already very prevalent on both PC and Mac, with Mojang not wanting to jeopardize any profitability on those platforms, and unlike other multiplatform games, Microsoft is opening the Live network to allow PC players to play with Xbox live players, which will necessitate certain core updates to the console version. As I have said a multitude of times, I doubt Notch, or the lawyers for Mojang, would have agreed to the exclusivity if the ability to provide certain kinds of free content updates would be hindered. Xbox exclusive updates are another beast entirely, as those are being provided outside of the traditional updates outside of the ones being developed by Mojang, and by proxy, 4J studios. Those would be developed as a result of collaboration between 4J and Microsoft, primarily. However since we do not know the terms of exclusivity agreement, we cannot infer that Mojang would not have a hand in content development for 360 as well. At the end of the day, Mojang is the company listed as developer for Minecraft, they have the greatest stake in development of the game across all platforms, they are the ones who are going to put forth the greatest amount of effort to ensure the success of the game. As it stands, Minecraft for 360 has already become profitable for development for Mojang, which provides them with a greater incentive for additional development for the console version of the game. To what extent they are going to be involved in that process remains to be seen, but to just blindly assume anything in this particular circumstance is a tremendous fallacy. Microsoft has already gone back on one of their core tenants regarding the Live service, and that is keeping as a closed network, I wouldn't be surprised if they reversed course on other stances they have taken in the past as well
“Minecraft” (Mojang, Microsoft Studios). Known for its limitless possibilities, “Minecraft” will come to life this winter in a whole new way through the magic of Kinect and also feature cross-functionality between the PC and Xbox 360 versions.
We haven't seen solid confirmation of cross-platform connectivity (I.E. 360 players simultaneously playing with PC/Mac players), and as stated LIVE has traditionally been a closed service. It hasn't been discounted (that I know of) but the way I see it, it's unlikely at best. I'm playing the "if" game here, but I think i might like to see what 4J could do if they were to take full development of the 360 version.
There have been games in the past, both 1st and 3rd party, that have offered cross-platform play.
Lost Planet and Shadowrun pop to mind.
Ain't THAT the truth. They swore they were going to have most of the library backwards compatible (something Sony and Nintendo never seemed to have much trouble with), and then they just inexplicably stopped nine months in. "Eh, that's enough."
Well, firstly – the Xbox 360 has 476 games that are backwards compatible. Meanwhile the Sony removed emulation from the PS3… so there’s that.
Secondly, they stopped since (largely) people stopped playing old games and started buying new ones. The ridiculously expensive process of making a compatibility profile was a waste if people would rather play Gears.
I just wish they has fixed Dues Ex 2 first.
The issue was that Microsoft didn’t own the IP for the video-card in the original Xbox. Nvidia did.
So Microsoft essentially had to emulate the video card of their own console – easy right? Well… no. Because consoles have limited assets, programmers use various tricks to try and squeeze extra performance out of them. Any games that used any tricks graphically didn’t work properly with the emulation.
So Microsoft had to make game specific profiles, allowing those tricks to keep working. Now, in some cases getting one game going meant that other games using the same tricks would work two – hence why there is such a mix of BC titles (good titles and rubbish ones).
The problem with Xbox and Xbox Live is there is always the next best thing. No game seems to last very long on the Xbox because the users are caught in a tide swishing them to the next released game. There are always people on the PC willing to play games that are 10 or 20 years old but you can't find a single person on Xbox Live who wants to play a game which was released last year.
I can still find games of Rainbow Six years after it came out.
Don’t get me wrong, the ‘horde’ does move on – but there are holdouts for most older games.
If MC360 updates often (once a month or so) the crowd will stick around to play it. If it takes months for the first feature update, it’s likely that the bulk will move on.
shut down anything that isn't an instant and huge success, **** off almost every third party willing to develop games for them, charge for content that should be and was always intended to be free, operate the most closed and restricted network around, hand out pointless features that no-one asked for and try and make it seem like it was in demand and insist on ridiculous terms for anyone who wants to release anything on Live.
So… had some bad experiences, huh?
These opinions are not a general consensus, although undoubtedly some do feel that way.
I'm not going to go on about how PSN offers an equivalent service for no money (even though it does) and how Steam is far, far better and also free (even though it is), because those enthralled by MS's ******** won't listen anyway.
Without dragging this thread off topic, that’s just a load of bollocks
PSN lacks many of the party/VoIP features of XBL.
Steam works poorly on consoles (observe the retreat of steam from the PS3).
The only thing that might hold MS's interest in the game beyond that point would be exclusive dlc that they can charge for. And that's about the only extra content people can hope for beyond the few skin packs and texture packs which are supposed to be in the works;
Incorrect – I mean, obviously incorrect as there are quite literally thousands of free downloads for all sorts of games.
What is true is that SOMEONE has to pay. Developers can offer free downloads if they pay for the privilege. But as Microsoft is paying for the hosting and bandwidth, that’s only fair.
MS's policies won't ever allow for mod support or any true user-gereated content.
…
Would be great, but will never happen. MS's policy is that they must approve all content uploaded to Live, and since they couldn't go through every piece of content that could potentially be generated by users to check that it meets their exacting standards, they just don't allow user-generated content to be uploaded to Live
Rather than list all the games that allow you to share user created content, I’ll let you google it yourself. Let’s just say that this is severely misinformed.
What is true is that they don’t allow sharing of user created content from PC to console. But that’s a different argument.
Op seems to forget minecraft x360 edition sold over 400,000 copies within the first 24 hours. More than 1,000,000 copies within the first week. Now it takes money to update games. A good amount of it. Clearly they have made alot of money and will be able to update the game.
If not , be happy that we even have the port in the first place. Its a fantastic game.
One thing that has delighted me in the advent of the internet age, insofar as gaming, is that you can deal with games that are constantly in progress. Like the MMORPGs, the games are routinely updated with fresh features, fixing bugs, and adding new dimensions and exciting experiences.
Minecraft seems to have flourished in this aspect, a game that has been constantly improved and built on, expanding the possibilities and activities. Mind you, that was on a computer platform.
For an Xbox game, we are dealing with a few issues. First of all, we have hardware limitations, so at best we won't have as rich as an experience as the 'puter folks. That's fine. I'm willing to make some sacrifices to play on the console. The game on the console now is damn primitive compared to the latest version, but I still think this game is dynamite and a pleasure to play. Mind you, I never played the computer version.
The second issue, the concerns me much more, is orphaning.
Again, the world of constant ongoing development is one of an unspoken promise that things are always going to be worked on. That just may not happen. The Xbox 360 version was a smash hit on buys, but that's the first blush. I'll be interested to see what is going to happen over the next few months.
There were two titles that burned me, and many other gamers. Daggerdale and Xbox Live Game Room.
Daggerdale was a subpar Dungeons and Dragons franchise (D&D computer/console games seem to be 70% crap [Pool of Radience Remake], 20% ok [Icewind Dale] and 10% absolutely brilliant [Baldur's Gate Series]). It had some inexcusable bugs... like items disappearing and LEVELS disappearing from your character. Atari promised a patch that would fix these crippling issues. Promised. Promised. And as months went by we got more and more stories of how they are ALMOST there. But they lied. They never released jack to fix it. They just let it die. By their logic, they HAD our money, they weren't gonna spend any more time on it. We naturally were fit to be tied, but there wasn't a whole lot we could do.
As crappy as that was, at least one could argue that the game was, essentially, done.... as buggy and poorly tested as it was. The real inexcusable part was Xbox Live Game Room. For the uninitiated, you could play some of your retro arcade favorites in your self-designed arcade. You could share with your friends and actually play on other machines that you didn't own for Xbox points. Yes, MAME is more economical, but to older gamers like me, it was a neat concept. But the thing was, this was FIRMLY couched as a work in progress. More games were coming. More items. More bling. More surprises, added monthly and sometimes weekly. Things went splendidly for about two months.
Then, boom. Nothing. No more updates. No more news. No more patches. And absolutely NO communication from Microsoft for future timelines. Word got through the grapevine that Macrohard and the licensed developer had a falling out and they 86'ed them.
Fine, that kind of thing happens, but many of us felt Micro$oft had an obligation to make good on their promise that this was going to be an ongoing thing. It's not like we spent a mere 1600 points for the download... we sank PLENTY more points in buying things for our arcades and games.
But no, apparently, they shoved their hands in their pockets, spun around on their heel, and strolled off in the other direction, whistling nonchalantly. Too bad.
Long, long, long story short.... I'm worried this is going to happen with Minecraft. Things are all diamonds and redstone now, but I doubt we're gonna see full vigor of development for free updates. I for one would be delighted to pay for updates for this fine game.
But I'm also building this land in my Minecraft game with the hope that I can play through it for years, and experience many updates and new mechanics to come. If the Minecraft port turns out to be just a novel footnote in XBLA, that dream will be shattered. And it'll just be collecting dust in the futile hope for an update along with Daggerdale and Game Room.
I loved Game Room... wish it were still going.
As long as they update it with all the core content and remove most of the bugs, I would consider any update after that a bonus because minecraft seems finished and complete at around 1.2.5 on PC.
If 4j can get the xbox version up to 1.2.5 I wouldn't consider it to be orphaned
Indeed. Porting games that were ALREADY COMPLETE is a huge challenge? MAME has been doing it near-flawlessly for years and doing it for free. ONE programmer could have kept that going.
Oh, a few years would be more than I could ask. I just don't want it to die on the vine after update 1 or 2.
Ain't THAT the truth. They swore they were going to have most of the library backwards compatible (something Sony and Nintendo never seemed to have much trouble with), and then they just inexplicably stopped nine months in. "Eh, that's enough."
Thank goodness my beloved "The Warriors" got ported to the PSP. I wanted so badly to play that again on the 360.
I swear, Microsoft's Xbox Developers remind me of a staff of cordon bleu chefs with ADD -- they'll start a scrumptious meal of great promise, but at around the appetizer course, they'll figure that's enough and just leave. And you're sitting at the table with your napkin around your neck, knife and fork in hand, wondering why the food has stopped coming.... then you eventually have to get up and leave when you get tired of waiting.
I dont wanna sound like the Eternal Pessimist here, but Ultima Online went down the toilet when Richard Garriot left.
Why? Because there was love and craft with Garriot -- this was his baby. To EA, his successors, this was a ***** to work to death and exploit for the most financial gain as possible while putting in as little development and work as possible.
I think a big part of the problem was Microsoft's approach to backwards compatibility, developing an Xbox emulation profile for each individual title. A better approach would have been to develop a single emulation profile for the original Xbox system to run all titles on, somewhat like what Nintendo did for Gamecube compatibility for the Wii. However in this case money talks, and with Minecraft making $20 million plus in its first week(and us not knowing what percentage of the profits Microsoft will get), I would expect Microsoft will be working to continue support for the title for the foreseeable future.
Like I said, my real question is how are they going to handle the matter once they release their new Xbox system. Obviously its going to have far greater hardware capabilities than the 360, and allow for an experience more analogous to the PC, but will Microsoft alienate those of us who purchased the title now, by dropping all support for it in favor of sole development for the new console. That is my primary concern, as I am not an early adopter for new tech, I prefer to wait till the major flaws are discovered and ironed out before I purchase, and with history showing that Microsoft has a propensity for half-assing console development in favor of an early release date for profit purposes, I wouldn't be surprised if the next system had its own version of the RRoD issues that were prevalent in early 360 models(of course I will admit it is somewhat unreasonable to expect all hardware flaws to be discovered prior to release, since the test base is quite limited, and some flaws are near impossible to discover with such a small sampling size, but there were actions they could have taken to prevent some of the issues that resulted in the RRoD).
I feel that's just gamers in general. They're a fickle lot.
I do want to point out one major difference between PSN and Xbox Live(This coming from someone who uses both, by the way) Xbox Live does not have a propensity for server issues that PSN has had a tendancy to have. You don't see a lot of down time with Xbox Live(at least none that I have noticed) this not to say that it is entirely problem free, but its problems tend to be component specific, rather that network service wide. Xbox Live also has not had a massive security breach that shut down the entire service for three weeks. Steam, I cannot comment much too, as most of the titles on it I cannot play due to not having a system with sufficient capacity, however comparing Steam to Xbox live, or PSN for that matter, is not really an apples to apples comparision, as all Steam is, is a digital download store, with a social networking component. It provides no additional services, as PSN and Xbox Live does. However, one must keep in mind, Sony is the same way with regards to its DLC as well, so it does not gain a point in its favor in that respect. You must also keep in mind that the developer is the one who sets the price for DLC, not Sony, or Microsoft. At best they would only get a small percentage of the purchase price from the developer for releasing the DLC on their service. So if you are going to place blame at anyone's feet if this title were to be orphaned(not likely given the aforementioned agreement between Microsoft and Mojang) it would be at the feet of the developer for dropping support for the title. They are the ones who are responsible for its development, along with subsequent updates, and they are the ones responsible for releasing the updates to the service provider, in this case Microsoft. Since all profits first go to the developer, in this case Mojang, with a percentage being given to the service provider as a fee for carrying the content(Microsoft), Microsoft has limited liability should a title not perform well upon its release to Live, as they still would charge the developer for releasing the title to their service, outside of specific contractual agreements that maybe put in place, such as the one surrounding Minecraft. The same holds true for Sony and PSN. It is the nature of the business.
It wasn't the overwhelming succes that Microsoft thought it was going to be. They poured more into it than was worth the return (not as in a loss... but the profit margin wasn't large enough to sustain much of anything)
One thing I do like, and am optimistic about with MCX360 is the fact that Mojang doesn't seem very deeply invested in it's development (which... may be a good thing, unless/until 4J catches up to the PC/Mac stable release level because it's basically just porting updates in waves... no actual development. Not saying that 4J couldn't take that over... however it just wouldn't "be" Minecraft if they did). They're still focusing on the "original" version while 4J has taken the reins for the mobile (iOS/Android/[Windows?]) and 360 version.
They've done well with the Pocket Edition thus far.
Only time will tell.
Live is a closed Network. This was the primary reason why Final Fantasy XIV, as atrocious as it was, only made it to PSN and PC. Microsoft was unwilling to open their network to outside access as they did with with Final Fantasy XI. Seems they are reversing that call with Minecraft as well.
@Fox, 4J was only brought in for the porting to the 360, Mojang is still wholly responsible for development of Minecraft PE. As for development role, as I have stated previously, they are responsible for development of the original version, and since the 360 version is going to mirror the pc version(for the most part), for cross platform play purposes, they are going to have a proxy role in the development of the 360 version.
I thought 4J had done the porting to the PE, too. Never played it (tried the demo... didn't like the controls, nor did I need to have such a scaled down version of creative mode everywhere I went.)
What I meant by "they aren't deeply involved" is not that they don't have a hand in it at all, but i'm guessing any and all final design choices are up to Jeb and his team, but 4J is playing catch-up, meaning it's basically going to be porting updates (1.7, 1.8, 1.9 ETC) every few months or so. If 4J were to ever catch up to Mojang, though, would that lead to to slightly varying experiences if 4J were to take over actual development for the 360 edition? That could be both good and bad, depending on how you look at it.
We haven't seen solid confirmation of cross-platform connectivity (I.E. 360 players simultaneously playing with PC/Mac players), and as stated LIVE has traditionally been a closed service. It hasn't been discounted (that I know of) but the way I see it, it's unlikely at best. I'm playing the "if" game here, but I think i might like to see what 4J could do if they were to take full development of the 360 version.
So you count my statement by bringing up a topic involving a game where Microsoft had a greater stake than just releasing the content on their marketplace? You are attempting to validate your argument by bringing up something that would fall under prior contractual agreements. Gears of Wars was a Microsoft exclusive game. This means that Microsoft made an exclusivity agreement with Epic Games, just as they have with Mojang, for exclusive release of the game on the Xbox 360, and at least for Gears 1, Windows(under the moniker "Games for Windows Live"). As result, Microsoft had a stake outside of just Live Marketplace Content, regarding the profitability of the game, and subsequent content. And for the record, I will lend greater credence to the... severity of the matter to what Mark Rein had stated on the Epic Forums, over your own post. IF you would like to point out a circumstance where this had occurred, where Microsoft did not have an active role in development, or marketing of the title, I would be glad to hear you out on the matter Now, yes Minecraft is in a similar position, except the exclusivity only pertains to video game console development itself. Yes, Microsoft has control over the release of the content itself on Xbox live, however due to the presence of the exclusivity agreement, one can make no inference as to what kind of content will, or won't be released. Again in this case Microsoft does have a stake in matter due to exclusivity agreement, and Microsoft is the one who chose the porting company, 4J. However, unlike Gears of War, Minecraft is already very prevalent on both PC and Mac, with Mojang not wanting to jeopardize any profitability on those platforms, and unlike other multiplatform games, Microsoft is opening the Live network to allow PC players to play with Xbox live players, which will necessitate certain core updates to the console version. As I have said a multitude of times, I doubt Notch, or the lawyers for Mojang, would have agreed to the exclusivity if the ability to provide certain kinds of free content updates would be hindered. Xbox exclusive updates are another beast entirely, as those are being provided outside of the traditional updates outside of the ones being developed by Mojang, and by proxy, 4J studios. Those would be developed as a result of collaboration between 4J and Microsoft, primarily. However since we do not know the terms of exclusivity agreement, we cannot infer that Mojang would not have a hand in content development for 360 as well. At the end of the day, Mojang is the company listed as developer for Minecraft, they have the greatest stake in development of the game across all platforms, they are the ones who are going to put forth the greatest amount of effort to ensure the success of the game. As it stands, Minecraft for 360 has already become profitable for development for Mojang, which provides them with a greater incentive for additional development for the console version of the game. To what extent they are going to be involved in that process remains to be seen, but to just blindly assume anything in this particular circumstance is a tremendous fallacy. Microsoft has already gone back on one of their core tenants regarding the Live service, and that is keeping as a closed network, I wouldn't be surprised if they reversed course on other stances they have taken in the past as well
@Fox, No, I have the full version, its Mojang AB all the way. As for the interplay between 360, this is from Microsoft directly, here is the link: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2011/jun11/06-06E32011PR.aspx
here is the statement.
There have been games in the past, both 1st and 3rd party, that have offered cross-platform play.
Lost Planet and Shadowrun pop to mind.
Well, firstly – the Xbox 360 has 476 games that are backwards compatible. Meanwhile the Sony removed emulation from the PS3… so there’s that.
Secondly, they stopped since (largely) people stopped playing old games and started buying new ones. The ridiculously expensive process of making a compatibility profile was a waste if people would rather play Gears.
I just wish they has fixed Dues Ex 2 first.
The issue was that Microsoft didn’t own the IP for the video-card in the original Xbox. Nvidia did.
So Microsoft essentially had to emulate the video card of their own console – easy right? Well… no. Because consoles have limited assets, programmers use various tricks to try and squeeze extra performance out of them. Any games that used any tricks graphically didn’t work properly with the emulation.
So Microsoft had to make game specific profiles, allowing those tricks to keep working. Now, in some cases getting one game going meant that other games using the same tricks would work two – hence why there is such a mix of BC titles (good titles and rubbish ones).
I can still find games of Rainbow Six years after it came out.
Don’t get me wrong, the ‘horde’ does move on – but there are holdouts for most older games.
If MC360 updates often (once a month or so) the crowd will stick around to play it. If it takes months for the first feature update, it’s likely that the bulk will move on.
So… had some bad experiences, huh?
These opinions are not a general consensus, although undoubtedly some do feel that way.
Without dragging this thread off topic, that’s just a load of bollocks
PSN lacks many of the party/VoIP features of XBL.
Steam works poorly on consoles (observe the retreat of steam from the PS3).
Incorrect – I mean, obviously incorrect as there are quite literally thousands of free downloads for all sorts of games.
What is true is that SOMEONE has to pay. Developers can offer free downloads if they pay for the privilege. But as Microsoft is paying for the hosting and bandwidth, that’s only fair.
Rather than list all the games that allow you to share user created content, I’ll let you google it yourself. Let’s just say that this is severely misinformed.
What is true is that they don’t allow sharing of user created content from PC to console. But that’s a different argument.
If not , be happy that we even have the port in the first place. Its a fantastic game.